<!--quoteo(post=2021674:date=Nov 12 2012, 10:39 PM:name=schkorpio)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (schkorpio @ Nov 12 2012, 10:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021674"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->make lerk spores ranged like the NS1 spore cloud would fix this.
nobody is going to camp an armory if they are being eated away by spores :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> They can and do. I spore armories all the time.
<!--quoteo(post=2021588:date=Nov 13 2012, 05:17 AM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Nov 13 2012, 05:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021588"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the outer cones seem to be longer than the inner ones. i have many times followed behind a marine and, looking straight at him, bit him and got a 25 damage bite. he didn't even strafe when he turned around.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2021661:date=Nov 13 2012, 06:27 AM:name=Ness_FrogKing)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ness_FrogKing @ Nov 13 2012, 06:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021661"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They are. I've noticed when I'm munching on an extractor I'll sometimes be hitting for 50 instead of 75. Moving a hair closer fixes that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is easy to explain: (Obey my 1337 paint skills! ^^) <img src="http://i.imgur.com/26bK1.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<!--quoteo(post=2021896:date=Nov 13 2012, 08:21 PM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Nov 13 2012, 08:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021896"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is easy to explain: (Obey my 1337 paint skills! ^^) <img src="http://i.imgur.com/26bK1.png" border="0" class="linked-image" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--coloro:#FFC0CB--><span style="color:#FFC0CB"><!--/coloro-->Incorrect. The cone is supposed to be reversed to give slightly greater range for accurate bites.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Why should it be this way? And have you screenshots of this? I only know the ones of the old cones before glancing bites. And it is in the nature of a cone, that its edges reach further than the middle-point when tilted, because... it's a cone.
At least there was: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=10649&view=findpost&p=1954999" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index....t&p=1954999</a>
- start with the middle 1/3 of the overall bite cone (note both height & width are scaled) - trace 9 points in that area using a small probe volume (starting in the middle & then to the corners) - find the 'best' target to find the bite range. Comments say Default is to select the closest Player - but 'IsBetterMeleeTarget' doesnt have any logic for distance (?? so you'd pick up the last player point in the 9 point sweep ??) - If you have a target, then do damage with 75. - If no target, try again using 2/3 of the overall bite code for 50 - Lastly Full range for 25 - each iteration does a 9 point trace using the same range value so all the cones use the same radius from the player.
as mentioned there is vertical scaling to the bite probe - you can be straight on, but if you are looking up at the player you might get a 25 hit.
<!--quoteo(post=2020163:date=Nov 11 2012, 11:17 PM:name=petit_fromage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (petit_fromage @ Nov 11 2012, 11:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2020163"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Flayra's argument was basically that it didn't make sense to new players if armories didn't heal their health AND armor. That's kind of a lame reason if you ask me. I don't think it's that hard for them to ask, or someone to tell them that they need to be welded in order to restore their armor.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All that is needed is a pop-up hint or loading screen hint mentioning "Marines can heal their teammates with welders". Players are quickly going to notice somebody welding them and their armour bar restoring, anyway. They'll see it increasing, say "Oh? What's this?", turn around and find out that they can have their armour repaired that way.
It's not even a<i> remotely</i> difficult concept compared to many other parts of the game. If we look at alien evolutions as a concept in simplest terms:
"Upgrading a Hive into a Crag, Shade or Shift Hive unlocks the Shell, Veil and Spur upgrade structures respectively. You can build 2 of each, which you can upgrade separately to unlock new evolutions for your team. If you lose the upgraded structures, your team loses access to these evolutions, but if their current lifeform has already evolved them they will keep them until they die or evolve. If the hive is lost, you won't be able to build the upgrade structures."
If someone is expected to work all of that out, they are not going to have any difficulty in noticing their <i>bloody teammates welding them</i>. Why does Flayra think players are incapable of this, yet will take to convoluted tech trees like a fish to water? The game already has an extremely unforgiving learning curve, and not being able to heal armour at an Armory is like a drop in the ocean.
<!--quoteo(post=2022102:date=Nov 13 2012, 09:55 AM:name=Stubbs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Stubbs @ Nov 13 2012, 09:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2022102"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If someone is expected to work all of that out, they are not going to have any difficulty in noticing their <i>bloody teammates welding them</i>. Why does Flayra think players are incapable of this, yet will take to convoluted tech trees like a fish to water? The game already has an extremely unforgiving learning curve, and not being able to heal armour at an Armory is like a drop in the ocean.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the console 'kill' argument was weak, but i can see the simplification argument for new/casual players - just removing the welding chore for base marines. true its a drop in the ocean.
i think just slowing the armory armor heal rate would be a decent compromise - similar to powernode repair, welders much faster. Long enough where a player has to think about - do I sit here or hit that phase gate. Long enough where a player is substantially vulnerable during an attack on a turtled area. This would still give the new/casual player a way to become 'whole' through their own action (sitting at an armory), but with limitations.
Side effect would encourage more welder use, which would in turn result in more welder use during pushes and engagements.
edit fix: push e to heal was ns1 mode or perhaps wishful thinking
I was really excited about this game, but they totally ###### it up. lerks are useless, gorges arent fun fades are a joke armories restoring armor is just plain ridiculous. at least give it a welding sprite, or are marines wearing an HEV suit that recharges using tubes???
I dunno, after 40 hours logged since launch, I can say im getting bored of it. Ive been playing combat, that still has some fun, but not as much, I have a long list of ###### in the combat mod, but that doesnt belong here.
<!--quoteo(post=2022112:date=Nov 14 2012, 01:08 AM:name=extollo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (extollo @ Nov 14 2012, 01:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2022112"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the console 'kill' argument was weak, but i can see the simplification argument for new/casual players - just removing the welding chore for base marines. true its a drop in the ocean.
i think just slowing the armory armor heal rate would be a decent compromise - similar to powernode repair, welders much faster. Long enough where a player has to think about - do I sit here pressing E or hit that phase gate. Long enough where a player is substantially vulnerable during an attack on a turtled area. This would still give the new/casual player a way to become 'whole' through their own action (pushing E at an armory), but with limitations.
Side effect would encourage more welder use, which would in turn result in more welder use during pushes and engagements.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Another issue (although much more minor) is you can park next to the armory and keep shooting while it heals you. Although this only works if you are firing at something on the far side.
<!--quoteo(post=2022198:date=Nov 13 2012, 11:40 AM:name=Destroid)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Destroid @ Nov 13 2012, 11:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2022198"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Another issue (although much more minor) is you can park next to the armory and keep shooting while it heals you. Although this only works if you are firing at something on the far side.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
[double facepalm] yes - ignore the 'press E' from above. indeed , your point is a problem as well.
armory armor heal is just sooo fast. - heal in general is very fast.
<!--quoteo(post=2022121:date=Nov 14 2012, 01:22 AM:name=DamDSx)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DamDSx @ Nov 14 2012, 01:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2022121"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I was really excited about this game, but they totally ###### it up. lerks are useless, gorges arent fun fades are a joke armories restoring armor is just plain ridiculous. at least give it a welding sprite, or are marines wearing an HEV suit that recharges using tubes???
I dunno, after 40 hours logged since launch, I can say im getting bored of it. Ive been playing combat, that still has some fun, but not as much, I have a long list of ###### in the combat mod, but that doesnt belong here.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--coloro:#FFC0CB--><span style="color:#FFC0CB"><!--/coloro-->- Lerks are <i>amazing</i> harassment units. - Gorges are a little dull currently but will be getting some love in future. - Fades are due for a small buff or two. Build 229 is supposed to improve blink a bit more.
And yes, armories are baby-feeding marines and causing new players to become reliant on passive structures rather than their teammates.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--quoteo(post=2022121:date=Nov 13 2012, 09:22 AM:name=DamDSx)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DamDSx @ Nov 13 2012, 09:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2022121"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I was really excited about this game, but they totally ###### it up. lerks are useless, gorges arent fun fades are a joke armories restoring armor is just plain ridiculous. at least give it a welding sprite, or are marines wearing an HEV suit that recharges using tubes???
I dunno, after 40 hours logged since launch, I can say im getting bored of it. Ive been playing combat, that still has some fun, but not as much, I have a long list of ###### in the combat mod, but that doesnt belong here.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So why are you here? Nobody's forcing you to play or post. If you don't like the game, either start modding or go play something else. NS2 has a lot of tweaks and changes in its future before it reaches its potential, but the entire gameplay experience isn't going to be redesigned from the ground up.
Regarding the topic: Since we all feel that armories should be changed, I think the impetus is on us to start modding servers to test it out and play the way we want to. This page is running on 10 pages now; I think UWE have seen our opinions on the matter.
<!--quoteo(post=2022451:date=Nov 13 2012, 04:34 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Nov 13 2012, 04:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2022451"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So why are you here? Nobody's forcing you to play or post. If you don't like the game, either start modding or go play something else. NS2 has a lot of tweaks and changes in its future before it reaches its potential, but the entire gameplay experience isn't going to be redesigned from the ground up.
Regarding the topic: Since we all feel that armories should be changed, I think the impetus is on us to start modding servers to test it out and play the way we want to. This page is running on 10 pages now; I think UWE have seen our opinions on the matter.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Shouldn't have to mod to have a half way balanced game.
<!--quoteo(post=2022674:date=Nov 13 2012, 05:56 PM:name=SixtyWattMan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SixtyWattMan @ Nov 13 2012, 05:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2022674"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Shouldn't have to mod to have a half way balanced game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well if shoulds were ares, we'd all be playing HL3 with our cheap virtual reality headsets.
<!--quoteo(post=2021442:date=Nov 13 2012, 02:03 AM:name=Blindga)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Blindga @ Nov 13 2012, 02:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021442"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'll quote myself a bit here<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is not a problem, if players start killing themselves they'll get the respawn queue stuck. It's an even better situation against marines turtling. And if they decide to suicide in the middle of the field they will have to wait to respawn and walk back there.
<!--quoteo(post=2022676:date=Nov 13 2012, 07:57 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Nov 13 2012, 07:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2022676"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well if shoulds were ares, we'd all be playing HL3 with our cheap virtual reality headsets.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Who cares about See-Saw puzzles 3? HL2 and it's episodes were just bland corridor shooters with poor pacing and physics gimmicks.
I like Flayra's logic actually... but armories are WAY WAY WAY underpriced for what they do. Either armor healing needs to be given to some other structure, or armories need to jump up in price.
I feel the heal rate is too fast on the armory as well. Lerk spores, for example, can't discourage a marine from getting his hump on.
An armory wall can be an effetive way to keep of those pesky onos's but many times they make the marines camp them and not push out. The only change I would make to armories is that a normal armory could not reload ammo for the gl's or the flamers.
I think they are trying regen as an alternative hit and run enabler. Basically, it's an 'Alien's get armouries too' mechanic.
Let's see how that works out.
It still means the game is now even less about wearing your enemy down but maybe they are trying to emphasise a "grar! grar! kill something or don't bother!" dynamic.
Comments
nobody is going to camp an armory if they are being eated away by spores :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They can and do. I spore armories all the time.
<!--quoteo(post=2021661:date=Nov 13 2012, 06:27 AM:name=Ness_FrogKing)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ness_FrogKing @ Nov 13 2012, 06:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021661"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They are. I've noticed when I'm munching on an extractor I'll sometimes be hitting for 50 instead of 75. Moving a hair closer fixes that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is easy to explain: (Obey my 1337 paint skills! ^^)
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/26bK1.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/26bK1.png" border="0" class="linked-image" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--coloro:#FFC0CB--><span style="color:#FFC0CB"><!--/coloro-->Incorrect. The cone is supposed to be reversed to give slightly greater range for accurate bites.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
I only know the ones of the old cones before glancing bites. And it is in the nature of a cone, that its edges reach further than the middle-point when tilted, because... it's a cone.
roughly this...
- start with the middle 1/3 of the overall bite cone (note both height & width are scaled)
- trace 9 points in that area using a small probe volume (starting in the middle & then to the corners)
- find the 'best' target to find the bite range. Comments say Default is to select the closest Player - but 'IsBetterMeleeTarget' doesnt have any logic for distance (?? so you'd pick up the last player point in the 9 point sweep ??)
- If you have a target, then do damage with 75.
- If no target, try again using 2/3 of the overall bite code for 50
- Lastly Full range for 25
- each iteration does a 9 point trace using the same range value so all the cones use the same radius from the player.
as mentioned there is vertical scaling to the bite probe - you can be straight on, but if you are looking up at the player you might get a 25 hit.
All that is needed is a pop-up hint or loading screen hint mentioning "Marines can heal their teammates with welders". Players are quickly going to notice somebody welding them and their armour bar restoring, anyway. They'll see it increasing, say "Oh? What's this?", turn around and find out that they can have their armour repaired that way.
It's not even a<i> remotely</i> difficult concept compared to many other parts of the game. If we look at alien evolutions as a concept in simplest terms:
"Upgrading a Hive into a Crag, Shade or Shift Hive unlocks the Shell, Veil and Spur upgrade structures respectively. You can build 2 of each, which you can upgrade separately to unlock new evolutions for your team. If you lose the upgraded structures, your team loses access to these evolutions, but if their current lifeform has already evolved them they will keep them until they die or evolve. If the hive is lost, you won't be able to build the upgrade structures."
If someone is expected to work all of that out, they are not going to have any difficulty in noticing their <i>bloody teammates welding them</i>. Why does Flayra think players are incapable of this, yet will take to convoluted tech trees like a fish to water? The game already has an extremely unforgiving learning curve, and not being able to heal armour at an Armory is like a drop in the ocean.
the console 'kill' argument was weak, but i can see the simplification argument for new/casual players - just removing the welding chore for base marines. true its a drop in the ocean.
i think just slowing the armory armor heal rate would be a decent compromise - similar to powernode repair, welders much faster. Long enough where a player has to think about - do I sit here or hit that phase gate. Long enough where a player is substantially vulnerable during an attack on a turtled area. This would still give the new/casual player a way to become 'whole' through their own action (sitting at an armory), but with limitations.
Side effect would encourage more welder use, which would in turn result in more welder use during pushes and engagements.
edit fix: push e to heal was ns1 mode or perhaps wishful thinking
lerks are useless,
gorges arent fun
fades are a joke
armories restoring armor is just plain ridiculous. at least give it a welding sprite, or are marines wearing an HEV suit that recharges using tubes???
I dunno, after 40 hours logged since launch, I can say im getting bored of it. Ive been playing combat, that still has some fun, but not as much, I have a long list of ###### in the combat mod, but that doesnt belong here.
i think just slowing the armory armor heal rate would be a decent compromise - similar to powernode repair, welders much faster. Long enough where a player has to think about - do I sit here pressing E or hit that phase gate. Long enough where a player is substantially vulnerable during an attack on a turtled area. This would still give the new/casual player a way to become 'whole' through their own action (pushing E at an armory), but with limitations.
Side effect would encourage more welder use, which would in turn result in more welder use during pushes and engagements.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Another issue (although much more minor) is you can park next to the armory and keep shooting while it heals you. Although this only works if you are firing at something on the far side.
[double facepalm] yes - ignore the 'press E' from above. indeed , your point is a problem as well.
armory armor heal is just sooo fast. - heal in general is very fast.
lerks are useless,
gorges arent fun
fades are a joke
armories restoring armor is just plain ridiculous. at least give it a welding sprite, or are marines wearing an HEV suit that recharges using tubes???
I dunno, after 40 hours logged since launch, I can say im getting bored of it. Ive been playing combat, that still has some fun, but not as much, I have a long list of ###### in the combat mod, but that doesnt belong here.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--coloro:#FFC0CB--><span style="color:#FFC0CB"><!--/coloro-->- Lerks are <i>amazing</i> harassment units.
- Gorges are a little dull currently but will be getting some love in future.
- Fades are due for a small buff or two. Build 229 is supposed to improve blink a bit more.
And yes, armories are baby-feeding marines and causing new players to become reliant on passive structures rather than their teammates.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
lerks are useless,
gorges arent fun
fades are a joke
armories restoring armor is just plain ridiculous. at least give it a welding sprite, or are marines wearing an HEV suit that recharges using tubes???
I dunno, after 40 hours logged since launch, I can say im getting bored of it. Ive been playing combat, that still has some fun, but not as much, I have a long list of ###### in the combat mod, but that doesnt belong here.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So why are you here? Nobody's forcing you to play or post. If you don't like the game, either start modding or go play something else. NS2 has a lot of tweaks and changes in its future before it reaches its potential, but the entire gameplay experience isn't going to be redesigned from the ground up.
Regarding the topic: Since we all feel that armories should be changed, I think the impetus is on us to start modding servers to test it out and play the way we want to. This page is running on 10 pages now; I think UWE have seen our opinions on the matter.
Regarding the topic: Since we all feel that armories should be changed, I think the impetus is on us to start modding servers to test it out and play the way we want to. This page is running on 10 pages now; I think UWE have seen our opinions on the matter.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Shouldn't have to mod to have a half way balanced game.
Well if shoulds were ares, we'd all be playing HL3 with our cheap virtual reality headsets.
This is not a problem, if players start killing themselves they'll get the respawn queue stuck. It's an even better situation against marines turtling. And if they decide to suicide in the middle of the field they will have to wait to respawn and walk back there.
Who cares about See-Saw puzzles 3? HL2 and it's episodes were just bland corridor shooters with poor pacing and physics gimmicks.
I feel the heal rate is too fast on the armory as well. Lerk spores, for example, can't discourage a marine from getting his hump on.
Let's see how that works out.
It still means the game is now even less about wearing your enemy down but maybe they are trying to emphasise a "grar! grar! kill something or don't bother!" dynamic.