Correct me if I'm wrong, but a marine with 100 health and 0 armor will die in a single hit to a fade, correct? With a bit of spores, its essentially also one hit to a skulk.
So the marine is standing in the center of his own base, and he gains almost no benefit from it? You shouldn't be able to hit and run marines who are inside an outpost. One thing I will say is that running to an armory mid fight is stupid. A marine shouldn't be able to heal for 5 seconds after sustaining a direct attack (not spores or bile bomb).
<!--quoteo(post=2020430:date=Nov 12 2012, 02:56 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Nov 12 2012, 02:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2020430"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Correct me if I'm wrong, but a marine with 100 health and 0 armor will die in a single hit to a fade, correct? With a bit of spores, its essentially also one hit to a skulk.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--coloro:#FFC0CB--><span style="color:#FFC0CB"><!--/coloro-->This is incorrect. A full (accurate) skulk bite does 75 damage. Fade swipe I don't remember... I think it's like 80 or so? Can't seem to find the thread with the damage charts, it really needs to be stickied.
Just a reminder to everyone that <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=123774" target="_blank">there's a mod</a> that removes armor healing from armories. I haven't been able to get a proper game going myself so if anyone else has I'd be happy to hear how it went.
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
I'd also support Fana's suggestion, for what it's worth, and I've advocated it a few times for no armoury healing and free welders. I fondly remember those desperate NS battles where you were having Marine players 'under siege' from alien attack, often outside of the base having to make the moment-by-moment decision between welding teammates, or shooting at the atttackers.
The half way house would be to require an upgrade for Welders to affect other 'Weldables' (as odd as that sounds) but make it quite cheap and quick. Players could pick up Welders very early for the mutual support it brings, and the Commander could still have an upgrade path for the item.
I'd think free welders from the start would be too strong, since marines can easily set up a forward base early on and not have to worry about getting welders soon to keep it repaired.
If anything, I'd rather have the welders be slightly more expensive. To me, welders have the biggest bang for my buck in the entire game.
So yeah, I'm in favor of removing armory repairs (or have it only repair halfway), and more expensive welders (+5 pres?). I'm not sure how badly this would change the game balance, though... I can only speculate at this point.
"New players will be puzzled" is the weakest argument I've heard, considering this is a game where there are different lifeforms and weapons with different special abilities and an RTS-style tech tree.
Just remove the armor healing, I never see anyone buy welders because why would you when after every hop through a phasegate I'm greeted by 1 or 2 armories. No amount of energy mechanics is going to change their effectiveness cause you can just plop down another one and the healing is frontloaded in a burst anyway, after I'm healed I don't care that the energy is gone cause I'm ready to fight right NOW
To the guy clumsily comparing armories to hive healing.... really bro? comparing a 40res building that can only be placed on 4 points per map to a small 10 (or 15 i forget) building that can be spammed everywhere?
The more I play Natural Selection 2, the more I come to hate how armories regenerate health and armor. I understand how not having a way of gaining back health may be frustrating, but why does it need to restore armor as well?! We have welders for a reason and with the armory restoring armor, the aliens' war of attrition against the marines is seriously hampered.
Please UWE release a balance patch with the armory fixed in the near future!
I don't think I've heard a single convincing argument in support of armor healing from armories. All I've heard so far was Charlie's note about frustrating gameplay. But to be honest, I think it would far benefit the balance of the game to take a hit to accessibility. Being dependent on teammates for armor healing increases teamplay, as well as the value of the item. It doesn't need to be more expensive than 5pres, though, I don't think.
The community's standpoint seems to be unanimous. It's difficult when the lead designer is so adamant, though.
I think being spawn killed, egg locked, knocked down by onos and the like are much more frustrating than having to use welders to repair each other. Doing stuff like that builds team spirit, which marines use to have in ample supply. Or having a marine pop out of a phase, drop grenades then go back through. Come to think of it, why exactly do marines have spawn/phase kill protection and aliens don't, especially considering the TTK a skulk is much shorter than a marine.
I agree with the op. Armories shouldn't repair armor. (Maybe Advanced Armories could.) But seriously. You got MACs and Welders.
I don't think they should heal health slower. But the armory itself should cost 15 res instead of 10. That would also make walling with them more costly. Seriously... it's such a cheap building that the comp players are using it as walls. Walls that also completely repair, heal you and give you ammo, all for 10res? I think it is obvious that they need to be tweaked.
armories only gave players ammo and health for a few patches, no armor. I thought this was fine they should do that again.. or wait even better, advanced armories give also armor normal ones don't. that would balance the crap out of this game lol.
You've got another supporter here. I'd consider myself a pretty terrible player, but even I recognized all the benefits that armories losing their armor heal gave when it was introduced in one of the patches (216?). Teamplay went up dramatically as marines had to work together from the start of the game to keep in tip-top shape, and it even created a sense of camaraderie as guys went off in informal squads and supported each other in taking objectives and killing aliens. Plus it balanced later-tier armor, since you couldn't just run back to base and get 90 extra health.
And this is in pub games, mind. I don't think a heard a single person complain about the change while it was still active, and I certainly never saw anyone commit suicide.
Edit: Also, as a new player I never noticed the "energy" system that was supposed to be implemented. Instead of encouraging me to take a welder, all it did was have me sitting in front of the armory longer and wasting time.
Yeh the period where armouries no longer repaired armour was brilliant. Actually seeing teamwork based around welding each other is something sorely missed from ns1.
Always felt the full heal from armouries just promoted a team of individuals and was detrimental to the feel and gameplay of the marine side in ns2. Who cares about the team when you've got a godmode mechanic keeping you alive outside of a hive?
I face palmed quite hard when I heard charlies reasoning for keeping armour repairs at er... armouries.
It seriously needs to be removed, I really can't understand how he doesn't see this. Players "suciding" to get more armour? wtf!?
I think at the VERY least it should be that advanced armouries heal armour only, then the whole "hive heals armour, so armouries heal armour" would make more sense as they are 40 res each. There is stil the fact that armours heal way faster than hives, and can be dropped basically anywhere which makes them better than hives. Plus you can't use hives to block pathways like armouries either.
The reasoning behind his logic may be somewhat flawed in regards to NS2, but in actuallity it is something I have seen done in other games that are mostly purely TDM. I do not think that it would be a problem in NS2 however since your position is much more important, and also your time is extremely valuable. While new players may not always realize the importance of these things right away, the more and more they play they will start to, and thats when the beauty of that system will start to influence them. It adds alot of extra depth to marine play, and forces much greater teamplay and cohesion. As you start to play the game more, even public players realize and understand the teamwork aspect of the game very well, its arguably the most reinforced aspect of marine play currently. Requiring welders or macs to repair armor takes that a step further, and actually adds greatly to the experience. It adds to the tension of fights, and makes the downtime between them a juggle of welding, sprinting, walking, scouting and reloading. Doing all of these things while still advancing and pushing the enemy is rewarding, and even public players can see and appreciate that feeling.
<!--quoteo(post=2019101:date=Nov 10 2012, 07:13 PM:name=Blindga)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Blindga @ Nov 10 2012, 07:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2019101"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If a team is defending and guys lose a non-recoverable resource during an attack (such as ammo or health that can't be restored or regenerated) than any men who had taken any hits will kill themselves and respawn fully healed while the enemy tries to organize their next attack. They do this to avoid weak men in their defense that could potentially ruin their plans..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was in the beta in a recently released game, Chivalry: Medieval Warfare and was surprised when they added health regen. In the original mod (also a halflife-2 mod) Age of Chivalry, health regeneration was minimal, and in hardcore competitive games you <i>did</i> have people commit suicide to get their health back faster (or so says the developer in one comment). In the new official game, they added faster health regen and it actually worked in making the game faster paced and more successful.
Again, I can see why the devs in NS2 might possibly think the same thing; he may have just thought it a trend of sorts.
BUT that logic still doesn't exactly apply here because the nature of this game isn't the same. Being alive earns you res, and committing suicide just to get armor points back would be an expensive move. I see absolutely no backbone in the developers argument for this.
For once, I see an overwhelming agreement in the forums here. Hopefully, the developer will listen to his players.
One of the more irritating aspects of the Armory repair is that if I'm a Marine and I have an Armory...death is my fault alone except against an Onos (or Fade if I don't have a Shotgun). Not the Alien getting the kill. Me. My fault. I have no excuse to die against a Skulk in the first place but with an Armory? Anything that kills me is due to my own failure. Consequently, when I'm an Alien and I know there's an equivalent Marine to myself on the other team near an Armory, I know I can't win the fight unless I'm running a Fade (as long as he doesn't have a Shotgun) or an Onos.
The glancing bite bull###### is really what screws it up.
<!--quoteo(post=2021452:date=Nov 13 2012, 11:09 AM:name=Syriquez)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Syriquez @ Nov 13 2012, 11:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021452"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One of the more irritating aspects of the Armory repair is that if I'm a Marine and I have an Armory...death is my fault alone except against an Onos (or Fade if I don't have a Shotgun). Not the Alien getting the kill. Me. My fault. I have no excuse to die against a Skulk in the first place but with an Armory? Anything that kills me is due to my own failure. Consequently, when I'm an Alien and I know there's an equivalent Marine to myself on the other team near an Armory, I know I can't win the fight unless I'm running a Fade (as long as he doesn't have a Shotgun) or an Onos.
The glancing bite bull###### is really what screws it up.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--coloro:#FFC0CB--><span style="color:#FFC0CB"><!--/coloro-->Glancing bites are fine. In fact, they're one of the best features put into the game. Pace your bites and aim them properly to avoid dealing less damage. Just takes practice.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--quoteo(post=2021522:date=Nov 13 2012, 12:29 PM:name=Syriquez)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Syriquez @ Nov 13 2012, 12:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021522"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Glancing bites do nothing but harm Alien gameplay, particularly new players when Marines don't share a similar hidden modifier against them.
At this point, I'm done playing Aliens as much as I can avoid it. It's not fun anymore.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--coloro:#FFC0CB--><span style="color:#FFC0CB"><!--/coloro-->Marines don't do <b>any</b> damage if their shots miss (except with GL, but that doesn't count). Glancing bites are not bad at all, you just need to practice.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--quoteo(post=2021581:date=Nov 12 2012, 10:07 PM:name=Heart1987)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Heart1987 @ Nov 12 2012, 10:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021581"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wait a second... What are glancing bites? I've read a few stuff explaining gameplay but they weren't even mentioned<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
skulk originally had only 75 dmg bites, with a rather wide hit cone. That was reduced to improve the skill required, but it became confusing to less accurate players (e.g., guy on screen, bite, no hit).. So there is now 3 levels of damage based on the targets offset from the center of the attack.
<!--quoteo(post=2021522:date=Nov 12 2012, 09:29 PM:name=Syriquez)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Syriquez @ Nov 12 2012, 09:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021522"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Glancing bites do nothing but harm Alien gameplay, particularly new players when Marines don't share a similar hidden modifier against them.
At this point, I'm done playing Aliens as much as I can avoid it. It's not fun anymore.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually they do nothing but help it. The 75 damage cone both pre and post glancing bites is <u>exactly the same</u>. Glancing bites just adds extra biteboxes around the original that deal less damage. It is strictly an upgrade: it turns what would have been 0 damage bites into 25 or 50 damage bites. The 75 damage bites are unchanged.
And marines have had glancing bites for forever: its called the shotgun. Better your aim is, more pellets land, more damage.
<!--quoteo(post=2021584:date=Nov 12 2012, 11:09 PM:name=Typhon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Typhon @ Nov 12 2012, 11:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021584"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Actually they do nothing but help it. The 75 damage cone both pre and post glancing bites is <u>exactly the same</u>. Glancing bites just adds extra biteboxes around the original that deal less damage. It is strictly an upgrade: it turns what would have been 0 damage bites into 25 or 50 damage bites. The 75 damage bites are unchanged.
And marines have had glancing bites for forever: its called the shotgun. Better your aim is, more pellets land, more damage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the outer cones seem to be longer than the inner ones. i have many times followed behind a marine and, looking straight at him, bit him and got a 25 damage bite. he didn't even strafe when he turned around.
<!--quoteo(post=2021588:date=Nov 12 2012, 10:17 PM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Nov 12 2012, 10:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021588"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the outer cones seem to be longer than the inner ones. i have many times followed behind a marine and, looking straight at him, bit him and got a 25 damage bite. he didn't even strafe when he turned around.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
that sounds weird if you were straight on.
i've had what would be expected: marine hopping around an armory & even if i'm straight on with the attack, if the armory is closer and in glancing bite range, the bite hits that. :( This is my perception, it could totally be my incompetence..
i havent looked closely at these recent changes though.
<!--quoteo(post=2021588:date=Nov 12 2012, 10:17 PM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Nov 12 2012, 10:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021588"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the outer cones seem to be longer than the inner ones. i have many times followed behind a marine and, looking straight at him, bit him and got a 25 damage bite. he didn't even strafe when he turned around.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> They are. I've noticed when I'm munching on an extractor I'll sometimes be hitting for 50 instead of 75. Moving a hair closer fixes that.
Comments
So the marine is standing in the center of his own base, and he gains almost no benefit from it? You shouldn't be able to hit and run marines who are inside an outpost. One thing I will say is that running to an armory mid fight is stupid. A marine shouldn't be able to heal for 5 seconds after sustaining a direct attack (not spores or bile bomb).
<!--coloro:#FFC0CB--><span style="color:#FFC0CB"><!--/coloro-->This is incorrect. A full (accurate) skulk bite does 75 damage. Fade swipe I don't remember... I think it's like 80 or so? Can't seem to find the thread with the damage charts, it really needs to be stickied.
Also, <3 Sewlek.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
The half way house would be to require an upgrade for Welders to affect other 'Weldables' (as odd as that sounds) but make it quite cheap and quick. Players could pick up Welders very early for the mutual support it brings, and the Commander could still have an upgrade path for the item.
If anything, I'd rather have the welders be slightly more expensive. To me, welders have the biggest bang for my buck in the entire game.
So yeah, I'm in favor of removing armory repairs (or have it only repair halfway), and more expensive welders (+5 pres?). I'm not sure how badly this would change the game balance, though... I can only speculate at this point.
Just remove the armor healing, I never see anyone buy welders because why would you when after every hop through a phasegate I'm greeted by 1 or 2 armories. No amount of energy mechanics is going to change their effectiveness cause you can just plop down another one and the healing is frontloaded in a burst anyway, after I'm healed I don't care that the energy is gone cause I'm ready to fight right NOW
To the guy clumsily comparing armories to hive healing.... really bro? comparing a 40res building that can only be placed on 4 points per map to a small 10 (or 15 i forget) building that can be spammed everywhere?
Please UWE release a balance patch with the armory fixed in the near future!
The community's standpoint seems to be unanimous. It's difficult when the lead designer is so adamant, though.
I don't think they should heal health slower. But the armory itself should cost 15 res instead of 10. That would also make walling with them more costly. Seriously... it's such a cheap building that the comp players are using it as walls. Walls that also completely repair, heal you and give you ammo, all for 10res? I think it is obvious that they need to be tweaked.
And this is in pub games, mind. I don't think a heard a single person complain about the change while it was still active, and I certainly never saw anyone commit suicide.
Edit: Also, as a new player I never noticed the "energy" system that was supposed to be implemented. Instead of encouraging me to take a welder, all it did was have me sitting in front of the armory longer and wasting time.
Always felt the full heal from armouries just promoted a team of individuals and was detrimental to the feel and gameplay of the marine side in ns2. Who cares about the team when you've got a godmode mechanic keeping you alive outside of a hive?
It seriously needs to be removed, I really can't understand how he doesn't see this. Players "suciding" to get more armour? wtf!?
I think at the VERY least it should be that advanced armouries heal armour only, then the whole "hive heals armour, so armouries heal armour" would make more sense as they are 40 res each. There is stil the fact that armours heal way faster than hives, and can be dropped basically anywhere which makes them better than hives. Plus you can't use hives to block pathways like armouries either.
<!--quoteo(post=2019101:date=Nov 10 2012, 07:13 PM:name=Blindga)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Blindga @ Nov 10 2012, 07:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2019101"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If a team is defending and guys lose a non-recoverable resource during an attack (such as ammo or health that can't be restored or regenerated) than any men who had taken any hits will kill themselves and respawn fully healed while the enemy tries to organize their next attack. They do this to avoid weak men in their defense that could potentially ruin their plans..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was in the beta in a recently released game, Chivalry: Medieval Warfare and was surprised when they added health regen. In the original mod (also a halflife-2 mod) Age of Chivalry, health regeneration was minimal, and in hardcore competitive games you <i>did</i> have people commit suicide to get their health back faster (or so says the developer in one comment). In the new official game, they added faster health regen and it actually worked in making the game faster paced and more successful.
Again, I can see why the devs in NS2 might possibly think the same thing; he may have just thought it a trend of sorts.
BUT that logic still doesn't exactly apply here because the nature of this game isn't the same. Being alive earns you res, and committing suicide just to get armor points back would be an expensive move. I see absolutely no backbone in the developers argument for this.
For once, I see an overwhelming agreement in the forums here. Hopefully, the developer will listen to his players.
The glancing bite bull###### is really what screws it up.
The glancing bite bull###### is really what screws it up.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--coloro:#FFC0CB--><span style="color:#FFC0CB"><!--/coloro-->Glancing bites are fine. In fact, they're one of the best features put into the game. Pace your bites and aim them properly to avoid dealing less damage. Just takes practice.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
At this point, I'm done playing Aliens as much as I can avoid it. It's not fun anymore.
At this point, I'm done playing Aliens as much as I can avoid it. It's not fun anymore.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--coloro:#FFC0CB--><span style="color:#FFC0CB"><!--/coloro-->Marines don't do <b>any</b> damage if their shots miss (except with GL, but that doesn't count). Glancing bites are not bad at all, you just need to practice.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
skulk originally had only 75 dmg bites, with a rather wide hit cone. That was reduced to improve the skill required, but it became confusing to less accurate players (e.g., guy on screen, bite, no hit).. So there is now 3 levels of damage based on the targets offset from the center of the attack.
At this point, I'm done playing Aliens as much as I can avoid it. It's not fun anymore.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually they do nothing but help it. The 75 damage cone both pre and post glancing bites is <u>exactly the same</u>. Glancing bites just adds extra biteboxes around the original that deal less damage. It is strictly an upgrade: it turns what would have been 0 damage bites into 25 or 50 damage bites. The 75 damage bites are unchanged.
And marines have had glancing bites for forever: its called the shotgun. Better your aim is, more pellets land, more damage.
And marines have had glancing bites for forever: its called the shotgun. Better your aim is, more pellets land, more damage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the outer cones seem to be longer than the inner ones. i have many times followed behind a marine and, looking straight at him, bit him and got a 25 damage bite. he didn't even strafe when he turned around.
that sounds weird if you were straight on.
i've had what would be expected: marine hopping around an armory & even if i'm straight on with the attack, if the armory is closer and in glancing bite range, the bite hits that. :( This is my perception, it could totally be my incompetence..
i havent looked closely at these recent changes though.
They are. I've noticed when I'm munching on an extractor I'll sometimes be hitting for 50 instead of 75. Moving a hair closer fixes that.
nobody is going to camp an armory if they are being eated away by spores :)