<!--quoteo(post=2018796:date=Nov 10 2012, 03:18 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 10 2012, 03:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2018796"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Doesn't mean it should be free, and as fast as it is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'll say again, I think marines should have to buy health/ammo/armor. This would punish turtling by soaking up the marine's time in the shop and would prevent marines from recycling and spamming gls when they should be choking out for res.
<!--quoteo(post=2018799:date=Nov 10 2012, 05:22 PM:name=Blindga)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Blindga @ Nov 10 2012, 05:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2018799"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'll say again, I think marines should have to buy health/ammo/armor. This would punish turtling by soaking up the marine's time in the shop and would prevent marines from recycling and spamming gls when they should be choking out for res.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2018797:date=Nov 10 2012, 05:20 PM:name=Firepower01)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Firepower01 @ Nov 10 2012, 05:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2018797"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There should be a way for marines to get armor healing without the need for another player to do it. Aliens have hives and crags which constantly heal. Armories have to have energy which makes healing slower if there are multiple people trying to use it.
Advanced armories or tech point armories healing armor seems like a good change though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They're called MACs, and they automatically weld anything that is short on armor nearby. I agree with whoever said that armories not healing armor will force commanders to use MACs more often and more tactically. Having MACs with a pushing squad of marines will alleviate the apparent annoyance to those people who can't be bothered to weld their teammates.
Ok, I've bought NS2 and I've been playing it A LOT. I had zero experience in NS1 but I was in love with tremulous, so I already had experience in a "similar" game. The thing I dislike most in the game is marines costantly rushing the "forward base" tactics: armory, observer, forward armory, forward phase gate, camp half an hour, win the game. If they are a bit coordinated, this strategy is just so easy to pull off it isn't even fun. The main problem is the armory, that gives you unlimited EVERYTHING (ammo, health, armor, 'nades... Oh god I hate 'nades :P). I really, really would welcome a change to armor healing mechanics. As many proposes, having only Advanced armories healing armor is the best solution in my opinion, for several reasons: -an advanced armory will be near any command station anyway -if you want to put up a forward base, the strategy is still viable. However, is more risky (more res involved) and aliens actually have a decent timeframe to react more effectively (advanced armories take a bit to research) -it will slow a bit those early "I camp outside your base" strategies since commanders will probably want to upgrade your main armory before building phasegates around every corner of the map.
I support the removal of armor healing on armories. They're superb structures even without that. Welders and MACs can heal armor. Oh and bring back perma parasite please.
Let it restore up to armor 0 or armor 1 only, preferably armor 0
That way the precious marines have some armor and there's a need to actually use welders. It's weird, aliens need gorges, an otherwise entirely useless class for healing and support but marines can't be expected to support one another with welders?
Plus there's the nonsense about how aliens can heal to full at the hive. Aliens also can't increase their armor and damage 3 times over the course of the game, they also can't drop hives wherever they please for near instant healing
I am all for armories not healing shields. It is easy and quick to do with a welder, there is no excuse for the rampant armory humping I see over and over.
Pretty much any time I ask for a medkit or ammo, the commander just craps out an armory on me instead. Feels pretty OP.
<!--quoteo(post=2019057:date=Nov 10 2012, 07:31 PM:name=dota girl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dota girl @ Nov 10 2012, 07:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2019057"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's weird, aliens need gorges, an entire otherwise useless class for healing and support but marines can't be expected to support one another with welders?
Plus there's the nonsense about how aliens can heal to full at the hive. Aliens also can't increase their armor and damage 3 times over the course of the game<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--coloro:#FFC0CB--><span style="color:#FFC0CB"><!--/coloro-->I got M3llyy to ask Charlie about this during the ESL finals earlier and he came out with the same old crap about hives healing aliens to full. He also reasoned that new players would type kill in console to get armor back rather than spend 5pres on a welder and help each other. lol?
I've always given Flayra the benefit of the doubt regarding his balance decisions, but he continues to amaze me with his downright nutty logic.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--quoteo(post=2019071:date=Nov 10 2012, 07:48 PM:name=Kallistrate)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kallistrate @ Nov 10 2012, 07:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2019071"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--coloro:#FFC0CB--><span style="color:#FFC0CB"><!--/coloro-->I got M3llyy to ask Charlie about this during the ESL finals earlier and he came out with the same old crap about hives healing aliens to full. He also reasoned that new players would type kill in console to get armor back rather than spend 5pres on a welder and help each other. lol?
I've always given Flayra the benefit of the doubt regarding his balance decisions, but he continues to amaze me with his downright nutty logic.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
WHAT? Kill in console? Marines with jetpacks and shotguns outside a hive with an armory will suicide to get shields back? That is some pretty retarded logic there.
Oh, and hang on, I don't type kill as a skulk to get back to the hive. WTF? No one does, I'd know because of the kill icon displayed.
So what does hive healing have to do with squat? Is C suggesting the CC heals?
Suicide is best defeated by talking about it. All research suggests ignoring suicide only increases levels of despair. Oh, my fade has no armour. ~ kill. Er, no.
Just to add my two cents to the 'suicide because I lost armor' thing, I have seen this happen <i>in other games</i>. What happens is...
If a team is defending and guys lose a non-recoverable resource during an attack (such as ammo or health that can't be restored or regenerated) than any men who had taken any hits will kill themselves and respawn fully healed while the enemy tries to organize their next attack. They do this to avoid weak men in their defense that could potentially ruin their plans.
However, this makes no sense in games like NS2 where your life is important to keep. If you commit suicide, you lose out on res. Any game that death/suiciding is punished counters this logic on it's own. I don't see why the dev would think this when he already punishes death with losing res.
So as someone who goes comm commonly on pubs (marine) and plays a solid amount of matches as marine, I see some special concerns with this idea of yours.
First off, I am not entirely opposed to the idea of either splitting the health and armor replenishment to different buildings or reducing the rate(s). In fact, I think it is a good idea and I recognize its importance for the Alien team to have an easier time attacking marine outposts, but taking out armor replenishment entirely is out of the question for me. And allow me to list my reasons why.
1. I can not rely on players being absolutely perfect with their team play on pubs, especially in a hectic situation, I'd rather have my people be ready to go as soon as possible, rather than first having to explain to them that they must buy welders and get each other up to full armor, while some of them watch each others' backs at the same time. This is made especially difficult as I frequently encounter people who either refuse to communicate or who simply can't. Quite commonly do I encounter players who speak little English, if any. Informing them of strategies and tactics, or telling them to weld each other, would be impossible.
2. People are already have difficulties understanding that one of them must weld the exo at all times. Having to make them understand they also need to weld each other frequently is just as unlikely to work either. This will cripple many many inexperienced marine teams. Now you may argue "but then they deserve to lose, they are inexperienced and/or simply don't understand the exo's dependency on welders", which I would feel compelled to agree with, but I also have to think about the situations an added dependency on this mechanic (the welder) would spell instant doom for the marine team and will cause frustration for a lot of new and inexperienced players.
3. When I comm, I like to be able to drop a forward armory, as that increases my marines' ability to attack an alien position tremendously. I know there were attacks for which we didn't have a forward armory and how they mostly resulted in failures, getting entire groups of decent and skilled marines getting wiped out within seconds. This discrepancy is so big, actually, that I think not having an armory in an area of combat will almost certainly result in my marines' failure. Even if they are good players.
Having to babysit my marines with medpacks alone is pretty bad, as not only is there a small cooldown on the medpack (or perceived cooldown), which makes it take a bit to get people healed fully, but also are there those problems of med packs spawning outside the playable area (ceilings, trims, the void) or players not realizing a med pack was dropped right next to them (happens a darn lot, especially when they're moving and on infestation, as it will apparently make the med pack harder to notice for the marine and dropping a med pack on a moving marine is difficult enough without the med packs dropping in void space).
Now you may argue "But you still have the option of dropping a forward armory, it simply won't repair armor", which is true, it will still reliably heal players, but since it won't replenish armor as well, their life expectancy drops so low I expect the armory to not be worth more than med packs anymore. Again, you may say "This is exactly what we're aiming for, making it less of an option instead of med packs", well there's the problem, med packs are barely even an option themselves. They drop outside the map too damn often. Almost every third med pack is lost to the void, I am not exaggerating and I am trying my hardest to keep the med pack drop inside the rooms. They drop out to the void regardless of my careful placement.
And there's one more small complaint, but then that's it from me about med packs. The problem that often dropping a med pack on a marine will randomly select him at the same time. So when I hit the hotkey for med packs again and doing my left mouse click, expecting his health bar to fill up, I instead witness nothing happening at all. This is frustrating as it is common and has no reason to happen at all. What I did was drop a med pack, not select my marine.
4. MACs, as they are right now, are a horrible pain in the arse to use. They have trouble getting to their destinations, I have to babysit them a lot to even get them somewhere close to the marines and then they tend to just float off to some other corner of the map in order to repair some random building or powernode, instead of supporting the marines/exos I maneuvered them towards in the first place. Thinking I actually might become absolutely dependent on them for a push to work worries me greatly. They are unreliable, often (always) get in the line of fire and actually shield the alien players and they just flat out refuse to listen to my orders. And it aggravates me greatly that there is no "follow player" option, which would make babysitting them much less of a problem.
5. And a reason, from a player point of view this time, I fear that too many people would be apathetic to their dependency on the welder (many already are). Results may be spamming the chat with "Weld me!" and getting no response (as they may in fact not speak English) or people blaming each other for getting killed when they had no armor "Why didn't you weld me!?". This may be a bit of a pessimistic view, but from what I commonly see occurring on pub servers, this feels very realistic.
(And if you honestly consider permanent parasite to be something worthy of discussion, can we have a separate thread for it, if we don't already? I have more worries about that feature as well which I don't want to add to this text wall, as this thread is mostly about the armory armor replenishment.)
<!--quoteo(post=2008773:date=Nov 4 2012, 08:43 AM:name=Talesin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talesin @ Nov 4 2012, 08:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2008773"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Likewise, parasite removal be an <i>upgraded</i> and semi-expensive medbay function, to the point where it would primarily be used in the main base (if researched/upgraded at all).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This, not that it isn't already too short to begin with. Parasite should last for at least a minute
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=ZeCruiser)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ZeCruiser)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--coloro:#FFC0CB--><span style="color:#FFC0CB"><!--/coloro-->While medpacks can be a little buggy, I still manage to land 90% of them on target. As for marines ignoring them if they land on the floor, well there's a big red + icon over meds/armories when you're hurt so if people don't notice it then they deserve to die. MACs are also a bit dodgy but you exaggerate the problem.
As for welders... most of the time I find newbies fairly receptive to the concept of welding each other. And so they should be. It's so simple. Sorry if I sound elitist but this game is designed around teamwork and if someone cannot grasp the basics of welder usage then I don't think they're suited to a game like this.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
JektJoin Date: 2012-02-05Member: 143714Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->WHAT? Kill in console? Marines with jetpacks and shotguns outside a hive with an armory will suicide to get shields back? That is some pretty retarded logic there.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I never really minded the armories healing armor until a couple days ago. I was a skulk with leap+adren 1v1ing a shotgun JP marine. I managed probably 7 direct bites and a few glancing bites on the marine before he finally popped me. The only reason he lived is because he was able to land at the armory every few seconds then keep JP'ing around. That just shouldn't be possible the marine was clearly outclassed. But because of the armory healing armor I was never able to finish the job.
And yeah, I realize all the other issues that removing armor healing would fix but that scenario is what made me want it removed.
EDIT: after reading through the thread a little. I think it would be good to remove armor healing from armories but keep it on advanced armories.
Another change could simply be armories heal armor. Which makes sense looking at what the building is. But they don't heal HP. Which also makes sense seeing as an armory isn't a medical device, it's an <u>armory</u>..
<!--quoteo(post=2019553:date=Nov 11 2012, 07:06 AM:name=Shrimm)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shrimm @ Nov 11 2012, 07:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2019553"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->EDIT: after reading through the thread a little. I think it would be good to remove armor healing from armories but keep it on advanced armories.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or the commander could build a few cheap MACs and leave them in base, repairing armour of marines that need it.
Personally I love anything that came from welder play, whether it was having to weld eachother between fights, or when they made it so only welders could rebuild power nodes. That was an interesting patch.
As long as marines are balanced around this fact, I don't see what the problem is. If it makes gameplay more interesting, punishes stupid play and validates broken alien classes then go for it.
<!--quoteo(post=2019553:date=Nov 11 2012, 07:06 AM:name=Shrimm)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shrimm @ Nov 11 2012, 07:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2019553"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->EDIT: after reading through the thread a little. I think it would be good to remove armor healing from armories but keep it on advanced armories.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, I like that. This would make forward armories less effective unless you were willing to make a big investment.
<!--quoteo(post=2019413:date=Nov 11 2012, 11:31 AM:name=Kallistrate)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kallistrate @ Nov 11 2012, 11:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2019413"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--coloro:#FFC0CB--><span style="color:#FFC0CB"><!--/coloro-->While medpacks can be a little buggy, I still manage to land 90% of them on target. As for marines ignoring them if they land on the floor, well there's a big red + icon over meds/armories when you're hurt so if people don't notice it then they deserve to die. MACs are also a bit dodgy but you exaggerate the problem.
As for welders... most of the time I find newbies fairly receptive to the concept of welding each other. And so they should be. It's so simple. Sorry if I sound elitist but this game is designed around teamwork and if someone cannot grasp the basics of welder usage then I don't think they're suited to a game like this.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well I guess everyone has different experiences with their team mates, the people I see in marines often are pretty terrible at listening or coordinating. I can barely count on them to do anything I tell them to. Even if it should make sense to them, as well. I speak from my personal experience, of course and this may be very different from yours. But having bad team mates does happen and not too rarely. If this game worked out as intended, then rambos wouldn't have to be a reason of concern. Then I wouldn't be nearly as worried about such a change. But I do see people who don't do any team play whatsoever, who just do as they please and often enough. And I see rambo very often, as well.
Believe me, I am not exaggerating the problem MACs pose, at least for me. I have to babysit them a ton and they often don't seem to work right. Surely I can't be the only person to hate having to use MACs. And yet I have used them every time in the last six or so matches that I was comm, because I could not count on my team to listen to me when I say I need one of them in main to quickly build the proto lab. There were enough phase gates for them to get around, they still didn't do it.
<!--quoteo(post=2019591:date=Nov 11 2012, 08:35 AM:name=NikolaiLev)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NikolaiLev @ Nov 11 2012, 08:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2019591"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah, I like that. This would make forward armories less effective unless you were willing to make a big investment.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Because of recycle it's in investment, but not much of a risk.
SewlekThe programmer previously known as SchimmelJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
i was not reading all posts here, but i agree that armory healing armor has to go. instead the welder research requirement could be removed (so you can buy them without having the comm to spend team res) to promote welder usage more, and there are also macs. i kinda miss the gameplay from ns1, where people were welding each other constantly. And since especially fade is designed around hit and run, it makes totally sense to me to get rid of armor healing from armories. also, i liked that one build in the beta :) it didnt feel "unfair" to me and i never thought about typing kill in console. everyone had welders and people were using them.
<!--quoteo(post=2019804:date=Nov 11 2012, 12:56 PM:name=Sewlek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sewlek @ Nov 11 2012, 12:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2019804"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i was not reading all posts here, but i agree that armory healing armor has to go. instead the welder research requirement could be removed (so you can buy them without having the comm to spend team res) to promote welder usage more, and there are also macs. i kinda miss the gameplay from ns1, where people were welding each other constantly. And since especially fade is designed around hit and run, it makes totally sense to me to get rid of armor healing from armories. also, i liked that one build in the beta :) it didnt feel "unfair" to me and i never thought about typing kill in console. everyone had welders and people were using them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed, I think that was dropped too quickly after one build without trying to work out the kinks. Armor right now is basically a formality, everybody is just at full armor all the time. It's no wonder aliens complain so much about Armor 3. It also makes base turtling a ton easier which is a legitimate problem with the game right now. We have MACs to weld armor too which I don't feel like anybody uses at the moment. IMO the armory healing armor has an adverse effect on pub play - marines are too afraid to go out without full armor, so they constantly return to the base every time they get hit. Then the marines lose because they never actually went anywhere while the aliens take the map.
<!--quoteo(post=2019071:date=Nov 10 2012, 09:48 PM:name=Kallistrate)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kallistrate @ Nov 10 2012, 09:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2019071"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--coloro:#FFC0CB--><span style="color:#FFC0CB"><!--/coloro-->I got M3llyy to ask Charlie about this during the ESL finals earlier and he came out with the same old crap about hives healing aliens to full. He also reasoned that new players would type kill in console to get armor back rather than spend 5pres on a welder and help each other. lol?
I've always given Flayra the benefit of the doubt regarding his balance decisions, but he continues to amaze me with his downright nutty logic.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
...
Does he even play the game? I don't think he does. I'd like to see proof of it. Also: No hidden modifiers...but ignore all the glancing hits nonsense. That's TOTALLY not a hidden modifier that totally screws over and frustrates new Alien players! Excuse me while I glance my shotgun 5 times and still kill the Skulk, while he hits me for a grand total of 125 damage against my Armor 3.
Also, I need to say that I completely forgot about the "limited restore" of the Armory. I have never actually run into it in-game. And as a bonus? I have abused its overpowered armor repair B.S. to survive a great deal of things that should never have been something I could survive.
So, summary of my complaints thus far: Armor-repairing Armories and lack of Alien damage.
<!--quoteo(post=2019804:date=Nov 11 2012, 10:56 AM:name=Sewlek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sewlek @ Nov 11 2012, 10:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2019804"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i was not reading all posts here, but i agree that armory healing armor has to go. instead the welder research requirement could be removed (so you can buy them without having the comm to spend team res) to promote welder usage more, and there are also macs. i kinda miss the gameplay from ns1, where people were welding each other constantly. And since especially fade is designed around hit and run, it makes totally sense to me to get rid of armor healing from armories. also, i liked that one build in the beta :) it didnt feel "unfair" to me and i never thought about typing kill in console. everyone had welders and people were using them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is sad that UWE never even tried to balance armories healing armor, I am not such a fan of this... but the easy way out is better than nothing.
Comments
I'll say again, I think marines should have to buy health/ammo/armor. This would punish turtling by soaking up the marine's time in the shop and would prevent marines from recycling and spamming gls when they should be choking out for res.
It also punishes attacking
Advanced armories or tech point armories healing armor seems like a good change though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They're called MACs, and they automatically weld anything that is short on armor nearby. I agree with whoever said that armories not healing armor will force commanders to use MACs more often and more tactically. Having MACs with a pushing squad of marines will alleviate the apparent annoyance to those people who can't be bothered to weld their teammates.
It's called an <i>Armor</i>y for a reason.
They would have to change the name.
I personally like the idea of weldering marine. It fills a nice combat medic like the Gorge<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ROFL.
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armory_%28military%29" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armory_%28military%29</a>
It's not called an Armory because it repairs armor.
The thing I dislike most in the game is marines costantly rushing the "forward base" tactics: armory, observer, forward armory, forward phase gate, camp half an hour, win the game. If they are a bit coordinated, this strategy is just so easy to pull off it isn't even fun. The main problem is the armory, that gives you unlimited EVERYTHING (ammo, health, armor, 'nades... Oh god I hate 'nades :P). I really, really would welcome a change to armor healing mechanics. As many proposes, having only Advanced armories healing armor is the best solution in my opinion, for several reasons:
-an advanced armory will be near any command station anyway
-if you want to put up a forward base, the strategy is still viable. However, is more risky (more res involved) and aliens actually have a decent timeframe to react more effectively (advanced armories take a bit to research)
-it will slow a bit those early "I camp outside your base" strategies since commanders will probably want to upgrade your main armory before building phasegates around every corner of the map.
That way the precious marines have some armor and there's a need to actually use welders. It's weird, aliens need gorges, an otherwise entirely useless class for healing and support but marines can't be expected to support one another with welders?
Plus there's the nonsense about how aliens can heal to full at the hive. Aliens also can't increase their armor and damage 3 times over the course of the game, they also can't drop hives wherever they please for near instant healing
Pretty much any time I ask for a medkit or ammo, the commander just craps out an armory on me instead. Feels pretty OP.
Plus there's the nonsense about how aliens can heal to full at the hive. Aliens also can't increase their armor and damage 3 times over the course of the game<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This, this, this.
I've always given Flayra the benefit of the doubt regarding his balance decisions, but he continues to amaze me with his downright nutty logic.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
I've always given Flayra the benefit of the doubt regarding his balance decisions, but he continues to amaze me with his downright nutty logic.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
WHAT? Kill in console? Marines with jetpacks and shotguns outside a hive with an armory will suicide to get shields back? That is some pretty retarded logic there.
With all the lava and crevices, we don't need to type kill anyway.
So what does hive healing have to do with squat? Is C suggesting the CC heals?
Suicide is best defeated by talking about it. All research suggests ignoring suicide only increases levels of despair. Oh, my fade has no armour. ~ kill. Er, no.
If a team is defending and guys lose a non-recoverable resource during an attack (such as ammo or health that can't be restored or regenerated) than any men who had taken any hits will kill themselves and respawn fully healed while the enemy tries to organize their next attack. They do this to avoid weak men in their defense that could potentially ruin their plans.
However, this makes no sense in games like NS2 where your life is important to keep. If you commit suicide, you lose out on res. Any game that death/suiciding is punished counters this logic on it's own. I don't see why the dev would think this when he already punishes death with losing res.
First off, I am not entirely opposed to the idea of either splitting the health and armor replenishment to different buildings or reducing the rate(s). In fact, I think it is a good idea and I recognize its importance for the Alien team to have an easier time attacking marine outposts, but taking out armor replenishment entirely is out of the question for me. And allow me to list my reasons why.
1. I can not rely on players being absolutely perfect with their team play on pubs, especially in a hectic situation, I'd rather have my people be ready to go as soon as possible, rather than first having to explain to them that they must buy welders and get each other up to full armor, while some of them watch each others' backs at the same time. This is made especially difficult as I frequently encounter people who either refuse to communicate or who simply can't. Quite commonly do I encounter players who speak little English, if any. Informing them of strategies and tactics, or telling them to weld each other, would be impossible.
2. People are already have difficulties understanding that one of them must weld the exo at all times. Having to make them understand they also need to weld each other frequently is just as unlikely to work either. This will cripple many many inexperienced marine teams. Now you may argue "but then they deserve to lose, they are inexperienced and/or simply don't understand the exo's dependency on welders", which I would feel compelled to agree with, but I also have to think about the situations an added dependency on this mechanic (the welder) would spell instant doom for the marine team and will cause frustration for a lot of new and inexperienced players.
3. When I comm, I like to be able to drop a forward armory, as that increases my marines' ability to attack an alien position tremendously. I know there were attacks for which we didn't have a forward armory and how they mostly resulted in failures, getting entire groups of decent and skilled marines getting wiped out within seconds. This discrepancy is so big, actually, that I think not having an armory in an area of combat will almost certainly result in my marines' failure. Even if they are good players.
Having to babysit my marines with medpacks alone is pretty bad, as not only is there a small cooldown on the medpack (or perceived cooldown), which makes it take a bit to get people healed fully, but also are there those problems of med packs spawning outside the playable area (ceilings, trims, the void) or players not realizing a med pack was dropped right next to them (happens a darn lot, especially when they're moving and on infestation, as it will apparently make the med pack harder to notice for the marine and dropping a med pack on a moving marine is difficult enough without the med packs dropping in void space).
Now you may argue "But you still have the option of dropping a forward armory, it simply won't repair armor", which is true, it will still reliably heal players, but since it won't replenish armor as well, their life expectancy drops so low I expect the armory to not be worth more than med packs anymore. Again, you may say "This is exactly what we're aiming for, making it less of an option instead of med packs", well there's the problem, med packs are barely even an option themselves. They drop outside the map too damn often. Almost every third med pack is lost to the void, I am not exaggerating and I am trying my hardest to keep the med pack drop inside the rooms. They drop out to the void regardless of my careful placement.
And there's one more small complaint, but then that's it from me about med packs. The problem that often dropping a med pack on a marine will randomly select him at the same time. So when I hit the hotkey for med packs again and doing my left mouse click, expecting his health bar to fill up, I instead witness nothing happening at all. This is frustrating as it is common and has no reason to happen at all. What I did was drop a med pack, not select my marine.
4. MACs, as they are right now, are a horrible pain in the arse to use. They have trouble getting to their destinations, I have to babysit them a lot to even get them somewhere close to the marines and then they tend to just float off to some other corner of the map in order to repair some random building or powernode, instead of supporting the marines/exos I maneuvered them towards in the first place. Thinking I actually might become absolutely dependent on them for a push to work worries me greatly. They are unreliable, often (always) get in the line of fire and actually shield the alien players and they just flat out refuse to listen to my orders. And it aggravates me greatly that there is no "follow player" option, which would make babysitting them much less of a problem.
5. And a reason, from a player point of view this time, I fear that too many people would be apathetic to their dependency on the welder (many already are). Results may be spamming the chat with "Weld me!" and getting no response (as they may in fact not speak English) or people blaming each other for getting killed when they had no armor "Why didn't you weld me!?". This may be a bit of a pessimistic view, but from what I commonly see occurring on pub servers, this feels very realistic.
(And if you honestly consider permanent parasite to be something worthy of discussion, can we have a separate thread for it, if we don't already? I have more worries about that feature as well which I don't want to add to this text wall, as this thread is mostly about the armory armor replenishment.)
This, not that it isn't already too short to begin with. Parasite should last for at least a minute
<!--coloro:#FFC0CB--><span style="color:#FFC0CB"><!--/coloro-->While medpacks can be a little buggy, I still manage to land 90% of them on target. As for marines ignoring them if they land on the floor, well there's a big red + icon over meds/armories when you're hurt so if people don't notice it then they deserve to die. MACs are also a bit dodgy but you exaggerate the problem.
As for welders... most of the time I find newbies fairly receptive to the concept of welding each other. And so they should be. It's so simple. Sorry if I sound elitist but this game is designed around teamwork and if someone cannot grasp the basics of welder usage then I don't think they're suited to a game like this.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Charlie's world.
And yeah, I realize all the other issues that removing armor healing would fix but that scenario is what made me want it removed.
EDIT: after reading through the thread a little. I think it would be good to remove armor healing from armories but keep it on advanced armories.
Another change could simply be armories heal armor. Which makes sense looking at what the building is. But they don't heal HP. Which also makes sense seeing as an armory isn't a medical device, it's an <u>armory</u>..
Or the commander could build a few cheap MACs and leave them in base, repairing armour of marines that need it.
Personally I love anything that came from welder play, whether it was having to weld eachother between fights, or when they made it so only welders could rebuild power nodes. That was an interesting patch.
As long as marines are balanced around this fact, I don't see what the problem is. If it makes gameplay more interesting, punishes stupid play and validates broken alien classes then go for it.
Yeah, I like that. This would make forward armories less effective unless you were willing to make a big investment.
As for welders... most of the time I find newbies fairly receptive to the concept of welding each other. And so they should be. It's so simple. Sorry if I sound elitist but this game is designed around teamwork and if someone cannot grasp the basics of welder usage then I don't think they're suited to a game like this.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well I guess everyone has different experiences with their team mates, the people I see in marines often are pretty terrible at listening or coordinating. I can barely count on them to do anything I tell them to. Even if it should make sense to them, as well.
I speak from my personal experience, of course and this may be very different from yours. But having bad team mates does happen and not too rarely. If this game worked out as intended, then rambos wouldn't have to be a reason of concern. Then I wouldn't be nearly as worried about such a change. But I do see people who don't do any team play whatsoever, who just do as they please and often enough. And I see rambo very often, as well.
Believe me, I am not exaggerating the problem MACs pose, at least for me. I have to babysit them a ton and they often don't seem to work right. Surely I can't be the only person to hate having to use MACs.
And yet I have used them every time in the last six or so matches that I was comm, because I could not count on my team to listen to me when I say I need one of them in main to quickly build the proto lab. There were enough phase gates for them to get around, they still didn't do it.
Because of recycle it's in investment, but not much of a risk.
Agreed, I think that was dropped too quickly after one build without trying to work out the kinks. Armor right now is basically a formality, everybody is just at full armor all the time. It's no wonder aliens complain so much about Armor 3. It also makes base turtling a ton easier which is a legitimate problem with the game right now. We have MACs to weld armor too which I don't feel like anybody uses at the moment. IMO the armory healing armor has an adverse effect on pub play - marines are too afraid to go out without full armor, so they constantly return to the base every time they get hit. Then the marines lose because they never actually went anywhere while the aliens take the map.
I've always given Flayra the benefit of the doubt regarding his balance decisions, but he continues to amaze me with his downright nutty logic.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
...
Does he even play the game? I don't think he does. I'd like to see proof of it. Also: No hidden modifiers...but ignore all the glancing hits nonsense. That's TOTALLY not a hidden modifier that totally screws over and frustrates new Alien players! Excuse me while I glance my shotgun 5 times and still kill the Skulk, while he hits me for a grand total of 125 damage against my Armor 3.
Also, I need to say that I completely forgot about the "limited restore" of the Armory. I have never actually run into it in-game. And as a bonus? I have abused its overpowered armor repair B.S. to survive a great deal of things that should never have been something I could survive.
So, summary of my complaints thus far: Armor-repairing Armories and lack of Alien damage.
It is sad that UWE never even tried to balance armories healing armor, I am not such a fan of this... but the easy way out is better than nothing.
Hopefully we can get a patch without armories healing armor and stick to it for once.
But you're right, it's a moot point at this stage.