Launch Tournament Summary: 5:00 Onos
HeatSurge
Some Guy Join Date: 2012-09-15 Member: 159438Members, Reinforced - Supporter
Some Guy Join Date: 2012-09-15 Member: 159438Members, Reinforced - Supporter
So, pretty much in every game this weekend there's been 5 minute onos drops. I don't think there was a single game where this didn't happen between 5:00 and 6:00, unless aliens were losing REALLY badly, i.e. losing a hive + being res dominated.
In my opinion, being able to put down a powerful life form like that when the rest of the team has ~35 personal res (i.e. it appears in HALF the time that it should, assuming no egg drops) is just unbalanced/broken/bad.
If onos drops are being done in every game, and so early, there's clearly a problem.
I don't think the problem is with the lifeform itself. If the onos arrives at about 9:00-10:00 (as it should, assuming p.res is used) it's very appropriate the way it is now.
I think the problem is with the ability of commanders especially on the alien side to drop personal equipment with team resources. Commanders dropping items with team res is just ridiculous and shouldn't happen until very end game. Perhaps they should be restricted to 3 tech points claimed (3 chairs/hives).
Team resources by definition should be used for upgrades/benefits of the entire team. While an onos is a benefit to the entire team, I feel like being able to drop it defeats the purpose of "team resources."
P.S. I think a lot of people are saying "Aliens OP this build" and while there are reportedly hitreg issues, the problem still remains that Aliens can drop an onos at 5:00 AND have leap on 3 RTs (watch the final game of inversion vs. all-in).
In my opinion, being able to put down a powerful life form like that when the rest of the team has ~35 personal res (i.e. it appears in HALF the time that it should, assuming no egg drops) is just unbalanced/broken/bad.
If onos drops are being done in every game, and so early, there's clearly a problem.
I don't think the problem is with the lifeform itself. If the onos arrives at about 9:00-10:00 (as it should, assuming p.res is used) it's very appropriate the way it is now.
I think the problem is with the ability of commanders especially on the alien side to drop personal equipment with team resources. Commanders dropping items with team res is just ridiculous and shouldn't happen until very end game. Perhaps they should be restricted to 3 tech points claimed (3 chairs/hives).
Team resources by definition should be used for upgrades/benefits of the entire team. While an onos is a benefit to the entire team, I feel like being able to drop it defeats the purpose of "team resources."
P.S. I think a lot of people are saying "Aliens OP this build" and while there are reportedly hitreg issues, the problem still remains that Aliens can drop an onos at 5:00 AND have leap on 3 RTs (watch the final game of inversion vs. all-in).
Comments
Christ if I were a marine team I'd be sending people into the hive around the time the egg is going to drop and try to snipe it. Snipe that egg and it's GG.
IMO they should consider having t.res drops cost more than their p.res equivalents, possibly based on hives. I.e at 3 hives onos would be 75 but at 2 hives it could for example be 100. Alternatively, they could have the onos egg drop tied to mature hives, that way it will take another several minutes before it can be dropped. (Fade egg could stay at 2 hives, no maturity requirements, to keep it a competitive alternative) It would also add meaning to the maturation mechanic, which for hives right now has become pretty meaningless.
Another thing they need to consider is that the onos egg drop currently looks so good because:
- Aliens have very limited tech to research at 2 hives, so saving for a lifeform drop doesn't put the rest of their economy on the beackseat for too long.
- Fade egg + blink is 80 T.res, so the fade egg drop isn't really a competitive alternative as it stands.
Personally, I think if shades, shifts and crags were available from the start (their respective active abilities would still need a hive of that type) and aliens had a way to research some abilities at less hives (larger cost/longer time), in combination with some change to delay the onos t.res drop, alien strategic gameplay would be so much more varied and exciting.
Timing DOES matter, because that timing can make the difference between a lifeform being properly counter-able and other strategic options (for example fade egg over onos egg, or simply focussing on leap and blink with the second hive up instead of onos) being more preferable.
UWE's new league will be called.
<img src="http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e371/grinsalot/banhammer.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
And yes, this is yet another problem of scaling between different sizes of games. 6v6 onos drop is much more powerful than 10v10+ onos drop.
It has to be taken into account that this is very likely skewing the win/loss ratio A LOT.
Rather than make Onos be the only viable strategy, buff other lifeforms to make them more competetive.
Watching the EU tournament, i saw a lot of lerks comming out due to the recent buff to the lerk's spikes. If the fade were buffed a bit (IMO it needs NS1 Hp values 250/150 w/o cara) We would be seeing a lot more variety in gameplay since every lifeform would be viable
I fear alien lifeforms will stay as they are since the win/loss ratio stays balanced, even though its only due to a single strategy.
If these things were more effective, and alien upgrades improved, we'd probably see more diversity in the early game.
I think lifeforms are looking pretty sweet right now, Onos is fine. So please don't change the lifeforms damage/hp... but at 5 minutes the Onos is a huge advantage.
Could it be refined? Maybe. But if we nerf every powerful thing in the game before people have a chance to overcome it we'll end up with a very bland game.
And bland games get left on the shelf.
What should be nerfed is the ability for it to appear at 5:00. And I think you need 2 hives to drop it, that's why people go for a 2nd hive... not sure about that, but I think you need 2 hives to drop life forms.
Oh, and also "learning how to counter the onos" is a bit funny. It's kind of hard for 5 marines to counter an onos with 1-2 gorges healing it, and 2-3 skulks on the side with weapons/armor 1 and without jetpacks. Just watch the tournament, I don't think the people who played there are new to the game... if you know what I mean.
I hate how onos egg has become the new standard, even in pub games, but I DO want it as a viable option at 2 hives, provided the conditions for it are right. (And thus at a much greater cost to the alien economy overall)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->not sure about that, but I think you need 2 hives to drop life forms.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Only fade and onos need 2. Also, it's not the only reason people go for 2, skulks normally blow at 1 hive so leap is generally a must.
The onos in itself IS fine indeed, this is entirely a timing and 'comparable viability' issue. The t.res onos egg drop is simply WAY more viable than any other tech choice for aliens at the moment, if they want to maximise their changes of winning. Heck, even ARC went for it every game, despite the fact that they often really didn't need it. (I'm guessing they also really wanted to get the point across)
It's not just the 'only tactic', it's the 90% winning tactic. That's what it's all about.
What a totally great reason to ban someone.
What an offensive mentality. Dissention occurs in every competitive game, and people are going to express opinions. You can't 'make a rule that you can't talk about the game'. That's absurd, and beyond all reasonableness.
Utterly ridiculous. Wrote up a long email to Flayra. Hope it gets through or someone with an actual sense of responsibility and maturity gets it in the end, and appreciates that a competitive community can't be man-handled, mass-banned, and vindictively controlled by the agency supporting them. That is how you kill your clans, destroy your community, and encourage no one to compete.
Guess i'll get 'banned' for stating an opinion here, too. I'm so sincerely suprised and dissapointed in the officially-operated mentality.
Ban Gorgeous for 'saying things on stream'.
Ban eh?, for "Saying things about registration"
Ban Colt for saying Onos are overly resilient.
Ban All-In for apparently no quotable reason. Yes, the entire clan so we've heard.
Ban Anyone and everything that speaks out in any form about anything regarding the game they obviously care about, support, and have PURCHASED.
Colt out. Sad day.
And why ppl are complaining it's not like you play a lot pub games with 6vs6
What a totally great reason to ban someone.
What an offensive mentality. Dissention occurs in every competitive game, and people are going to express opinions. You can't 'make a rule that you can't talk about the game'. That's absurd, and beyond all reasonableness.
Utterly ridiculous. Wrote up a long email to Flayra. Hope it gets through or someone with an actual sense of responsibility and maturity gets it in the end, and appreciates that a competitive community can't be man-handled, mass-banned, and vindictively controlled by the agency supporting them. That is how you kill your clans, destroy your community, and encourage no one to compete.
Guess i'll get 'banned' for stating an opinion here, too. I'm so sincerely suprised and dissapointed in the officially-operated mentality.
Ban Gorgeous for 'saying things on stream'.
Ban eh?, for "Saying things about registration"
Ban Colt for saying Onos are overly resilient.
Ban All-In for apparently no quotable reason. Yes, the entire clan so we've heard.
Ban Anyone and everything that speaks out in any form about anything regarding the game they obviously care about, support, and have PURCHASED.
Colt out. Sad day.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Given these tourneys are a major part of UWE's PR strategy for selling the game, I can understand why they might want to enforce rules about what is said in chat in front of undecided potential buyers.
But were the rules clearly explained beforehand? What did the rules say?
The official stream was embarrassing to watch. I wouldn't want to be part of any clan affiliated with it.
Am I banned from the forums yet?
Instead the Onos was nerfed by a smidgen.
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I believe the solution is not to nerf the onos, or remove the ability to drop onos eggs, but rather to buff the other options like chamber upgrades, and the other lifeforms in general so that it is just as advantageous to grab lerks and fades as it is to dump all the teams res on onos
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I believe the solution is not to nerf the onos, or remove the ability to drop onos eggs, but rather to buff the other options like chamber upgrades, and the other lifeforms in general so that it is just as advantageous to grab lerks and fades as it is to dump all the teams res on onos<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because that would be too logical and would increase the fun factor of other lifeforms (IE not dying in a split second when playing anything other than onos vs shotguns).
We can't have that.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've already expressed plenty of concern about this issue both in PT's, to Charlie himself, and through other means. At least make it a 3rd hive egg that would bring back the importance of a 3rd hive (you only get it now if you're really dominating as aliens and have already dropped an Onos egg) for at least a temporary solution to this issue until the rest of the timing can be figured out.
Instead the Onos was nerfed by a smidgen.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry, but requiring 3 hives to drop an onos eggs is a terrible idea. How often did you see Aliens securing 3 hives (think patch 223)? I'm disappointed that onos had to be nerfed by a "smidgen" too. Whats to stop marines dropping dual exosuits (besides having to research them first). Theoretically nothing, but they don't because other upgrades are vital to their success. Which is exactly the opposite for aliens because vastly majority of the alien tech is absolutely worthless, and because of that, aliens are virtually "swimming" in t.res (on 3 rts because anything more is too difficult to maintain) because there is next to zero tech worth spending it on, so they drop onos eggs instead. Crag and shift hives, and carapace, celerity and leap. You've just covered about 90% of alien gameplay/requirements with that tech.