So my point is, since onos egg drop unlike the exo has no prereq. t.res investments to unlock, simply significantly alter the timing it comes out, one way or another. Or have a sort of scaling system where an early game onos isn't as big of a threat as a lategame one, and where in general aliens can stay competitive with marines as the game progresses.
Tying it to 3 hives though doesn't just 'increase' that timing, it completely takes it out of the game as a relevant factor, since usually players will hit 75 p.res long before a commander will get 3 hives and 75 t.res.... It's a really poor solution, not much different from how they fixed sentry spam by making sentries only good versus structures.
<!--quoteo(post=1999285:date=Oct 28 2012, 09:14 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Oct 28 2012, 09:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999285"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So my point is, since onos egg drop unlike the exo has no prereq. t.res investments to unlock, simply significantly alter the timing it comes out, one way or another. <b>Or have a sort of scaling system where an early game onos isn't as big of a threat as a lategame one, and where in general aliens can stay competitive with marines as the game progresses.</b>
Tying it to 3 hives though doesn't just 'increase' that timing, it completely takes it out of the game as a relevant factor, since usually players will hit 75 p.res long before a commander will get 3 hives and 75 t.res.... It's a really poor solution.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A feature that has only been requested by the community over nearly a dozen times.
A feature that I've suggested multiple times since my forum join date.
But when you watch it get ignored multiple times, then features being added that goes completely against it. Yeah, you know a lost cause when you see it.
I think it's pretty safe to assume that scaling systems, tiering alien upgrades, maturation of life forms and all those radical things would mean scrapping the entire game and going back to the drawing board.
I kind of doubt that's going to happen any time soon if at all. The game itself actually works decently well right now IMO, except a few glaring issues such as weapon cycling, and the onos egg drop. There's quite a few other things as well, but they're nowhere nearly as glaring as the weapon cycling and onos eggs.
The simplest solution which would work is to somehow delay the onos egg drops to the late mid-, or end game where they're meant to appear, and somehow reduce the easy weapon cycling (the onos egg drop being the more severe issue and the topic here).
What about this? Give Marines a new toy (weapon or otherwise) with a damage type that deals bonus damage against armor and reduced damage vs flesh and/or structures as a counter to Onoses. (Onii?) If that's not enough, maybe give it some sort of debuff that prevents healing/health regeneration on the afflicted target for a short time.
Gives them a tool to counter early Cara Onos without giving them an upgrade to the LMG, since weapons are supposed to be sidegrades.
Unlike the Shotgun, it wouldn't be something to give everyone because of the reduced damage on some types while also being self-scaling. (Early game lower lifeforms tend to not have much armor anyway)
<!--quoteo(post=1999289:date=Oct 28 2012, 08:20 PM:name=HeatSurge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge @ Oct 28 2012, 08:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999289"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The simplest solution which would work is to somehow delay the onos egg drops to the late mid-, or end game where they're meant to appear, and somehow reduce the easy weapon cycling (the onos egg drop being the more severe issue and the topic here).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No, that's the simplest band-aid fix for this symptom. This strategic imbalance is endemic of the severe issues aliens face combating shotguns and keeping up with marine advancement, and the major problems both teams face due to the ability to mingle Pres and Tres.
<!--quoteo(post=1999294:date=Oct 28 2012, 08:24 PM:name=Kopikat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kopikat @ Oct 28 2012, 08:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999294"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What about this? Give Marines a new toy (weapon or otherwise) with a damage type that deals bonus damage against armor and reduced damage vs flesh and/or structures as a counter to Onoses? (Onii?)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Should be the Flamethrower; I've been suggesting that for ages, but nobody seems to have much interest in it.
<!--quoteo(post=1999296:date=Oct 28 2012, 06:24 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Oct 28 2012, 06:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999296"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Should be the Flamethrower; I've been suggesting that for ages, but nobody seems to have much interest in it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think that would help because I don't think I've ever seen an AA come out before/at five minutes, much less AA + Flamethrower.
<!--quoteo(post=1999228:date=Oct 28 2012, 07:37 PM:name=rantology)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rantology @ Oct 28 2012, 07:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999228"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->end game siege breaker unit + 6:00 into a game + ???? = profit
<!--quoteo(post=1999294:date=Oct 28 2012, 06:24 PM:name=Kopikat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kopikat @ Oct 28 2012, 06:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999294"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What about this? Give Marines a new toy (weapon or otherwise) with a damage type that deals bonus damage against armor and reduced damage vs flesh and/or structures as a counter to Onoses. (Onii?) If that's not enough, maybe give it some sort of debuff that prevents healing/health regeneration on the afflicted target for a short time.
Gives them a tool to counter early Cara Onos without giving them an upgrade to the LMG, since weapons are supposed to be sidegrades.
Unlike the Shotgun, it wouldn't be something to give everyone because of the reduced damage on some types while also being self-scaling. (Early game lower lifeforms tend to not have much armor anyway)
Possibly some sort of biological agent/weapon.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1999301:date=Oct 28 2012, 08:29 PM:name=Kopikat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kopikat @ Oct 28 2012, 08:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999301"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think that would help because I don't think I've ever seen an AA come out before/at five minutes, much less AA + Flamethrower.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Maybe if people suddenly had a reason to get it instead of just rushing Protos. No HMG means the only thing AA unlocks is the (bad) flamethrower and (risky) GL.
<!--quoteo(post=1999301:date=Oct 28 2012, 09:29 PM:name=Kopikat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kopikat @ Oct 28 2012, 09:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999301"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think that would help because I don't think I've ever seen an AA come out before/at five minutes, much less AA + Flamethrower.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't see it being <i>too</i> much of a problem is if it was moved to the basic armory.
But I'm not sure about flame throwers doing bonus damage against armor. Maybe if it did % dmg against total health/armor. That way it would hurts onos more and less so the lower lifeforms (as if non-onos need anymore problems), I'd be okay with that.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maybe if people suddenly had a reason to get it instead of just rushing Protos. No HMG means the only thing AA unlocks is the (bad) flamethrower and (risky) GL.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Make it so only AA repairs armor. That would be the huge incentive to upgrade the armory.
Giving marines "more toys" to combat end-game units in the early game, would make marines extremely OP end-game, when in addition to those "toys" they'll have all the other "toys" they have right now.
When you make changes, you have to account for when they appear and what effect they might have on the game after they appear.
I wouldn't like to see the flamethrower buffed to an "onos killer" and then see swarms of jetpacking flamethrowers flying around steamrolling aliens later.
The marines don't need help to deal with a late-game unit such as the onos. They have plenty of ways to deal with late-game units in the late-game. The problem is that an late-game unit appears in the early game pretty regularly as we saw this weekend.
An onos has no place on the map before the marines can effectively counter it. The same way as dual exos, jetpacks, grenade launchers, etc. have no place on the map before aliens can effectively counter them.
<!--quoteo(post=1999305:date=Oct 28 2012, 06:34 PM:name=MisterNubs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MisterNubs @ Oct 28 2012, 06:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999305"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't see it being <i>too</i> much of a problem is if it was moved to the basic armory.
But I'm not sure about flame throwers doing bonus damage against armor. Maybe if it did % dmg against total health/armor. That way it would hurts onos more more so than lower lifeforms (as if non-onos need anymore problems), I'd be okay with that.
Make it so only AA repairs armor. That would be the huge incentive to upgrade the armory.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1999305:date=Oct 28 2012, 08:34 PM:name=MisterNubs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MisterNubs @ Oct 28 2012, 08:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999305"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Make it so only AA repairs armor. That would be the huge incentive to upgrade the armory.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree <!--quoteo(post=1999306:date=Oct 28 2012, 08:35 PM:name=HeatSurge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge @ Oct 28 2012, 08:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999306"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Giving marines "more toys" to combat end-game units in the early game, would make marines extremely OP end-game, when in addition to those "toys" they'll have all the other "toys" they have right now. ... I wouldn't like to see the flamethrower buffed to an "onos killer" and then see swarms of jetpacking flamethrowers flying around steamrolling aliens later.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So take armor regeneration off of armories, triple SG firing rate and cut its damage in thirds to give aliens some semblance of a chance to react, and make the FT a weapon that's <i>good</i> against armor instead of <i>annihilating</i> it. Every weapon doesn't have to be a min-maxed glass-death-machine; you can have guns that are better in some areas than others without being devastating or useless.
<!--quoteo(post=1999306:date=Oct 28 2012, 09:35 PM:name=HeatSurge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge @ Oct 28 2012, 09:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999306"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Giving marines "more toys" to combat end-game units in the early game, would make marines extremely OP end-game, when in addition to those "toys" they'll have all the other "toys" they have right now.
When you make changes, you have to account for when they appear and what effect they might have on the game after they appear.
I wouldn't like to see the flamethrower buffed to an "onos killer" and then see swarms of jetpacking flamethrowers flying around steamrolling aliens later.
The marines don't need help to deal with a late-game unit such as the onos. They have plenty of ways to deal with late-game units in the late-game. The problem is that an late-game unit appears in the early game pretty regularly as we saw this weekend.
An onos has no place on the map before the marines can effectively counter it. The same way as dual exos, jetpacks, grenade launchers, etc. have no place on the map before aliens can effectively counter them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Kinda like marines rushing shotguns that steamrolls over early and mid-game lifeforms.
<!--quoteo(post=1999305:date=Oct 28 2012, 06:34 PM:name=MisterNubs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MisterNubs @ Oct 28 2012, 06:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999305"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Make it so only AA repairs armor. That would be the huge incentive to upgrade the armory.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Eh...I don't know, since Welders are so cheap as it is. Seems kinda needlessly frustrating.
<!--quoteo(post=1999306:date=Oct 28 2012, 06:35 PM:name=HeatSurge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge @ Oct 28 2012, 06:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999306"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Giving marines "more toys" to combat end-game units in the early game, would make marines extremely OP end-game, when in addition to those "toys" they'll have all the other "toys" they have right now.
When you make changes, you have to account for when they appear and what effect they might have on the game after they appear.
I wouldn't like to see the flamethrower buffed to an "onos killer" and then see swarms of jetpacking flamethrowers flying around steamrolling aliens later.
The marines don't need help to deal with a late-game unit such as the onos. They have plenty of ways to deal with late-game units in the late-game. The problem is that an late-game unit appears in the early game pretty regularly as we saw this weekend.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, like I said, bonus damage vs armor but reduced damage vs flesh is self-scaling because early game lower lifeforms have low armor anyway. It would help them a bit more in the late game, but not overwhelmingly so since...they already have Shotguns for all-purpose murdering. Any weapon with a higher average TTK than a Shotgun wouldn't be too much to handle, I would think.
<!--quoteo(post=1999312:date=Oct 28 2012, 09:39 PM:name=Kopikat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kopikat @ Oct 28 2012, 09:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999312"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Eh...I don't know, since Welders are so cheap as it is. Seems kinda needlessly frustrating.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good (smart) marines already carry welders. It will also help reduce the amount of shotguns on the field if players have to purchase welders. It will also help reduce the cheese of armory humping on forward bases. It would also make AA a good target to go after in bases when marines turtle. Since no armor = dead marine.
<!--quoteo(post=1999311:date=Oct 28 2012, 07:38 PM:name=MisterNubs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MisterNubs @ Oct 28 2012, 07:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999311"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Kinda like marines rushing shotguns that steamrolls over early and mid-game lifeforms.
Sorry, had to do it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I didn't see shotguns steamrolling fades in the tournament. Did you? Sometimes I actually saw lerks too.
Shotguns are strong, but they're not unbeatable. And they don't steam roll. Weapon recylcing is a bad issue though, and that's a separate can of worms.
<!--quoteo(post=1999315:date=Oct 28 2012, 09:41 PM:name=HeatSurge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge @ Oct 28 2012, 09:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999315"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I didn't see shotguns steamrolling fades in the tournament. Did you? Sometimes I actually saw lerks too.
Shotguns are strong, but they're not unbeatable. And they don't steam roll. Weapon recylcing is a bad issue though, and that's a separate can of worms.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Tourny aside.
It's easy as hell to roll pugs with a shotgun. The spread is too damn tight.
Shotguns are inherently unbeatable because they're recyclable.
Iron PriestJoin Date: 2012-04-27Member: 151193Members, Reinforced - Supporter
What about if there was a sound that played indicating the drop of an egg? E.g., if a com drops an Onos egg, a large horn plays throughout the map. It would force the marine team to push the hive(s) to find the egg, and could be an interesting change to early game play.
<!--quoteo(post=1999315:date=Oct 28 2012, 08:41 PM:name=HeatSurge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge @ Oct 28 2012, 08:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999315"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I didn't see shotguns steamrolling fades in the tournament. Did you? Sometimes I actually saw lerks too.
Shotguns are strong, but they're not unbeatable. And they don't steam roll. Weapon recylcing is a bad issue though, and that's a separate can of worms.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Shotguns roll skulks bad enough as it is. The Onos doesn't even one-shot Marines, and it's the most expensive lifeform aliens can get. Why can Marines instantly kill their opponent's base unit with no opportunity to react or retreat? The fact that people aren't being 100% instantly murdered in every single shotgun-skulk confrontation (it's closer to 70%, I estimate) in no way affects how imbalanced the weapon is. People will hit the skill ceiling with it eventually.
<!--quoteo(post=1999319:date=Oct 28 2012, 08:46 PM:name=Iron Priest)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Iron Priest @ Oct 28 2012, 08:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999319"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What about if there was a sound that played indicating the drop of an egg? E.g., if a com drops an Onos egg, a large horn plays throughout the map. It would force the marine team to push the hive(s) to find the egg, and could be an interesting change to early game play.
Would this work?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Umm, no?
You act like teams don't already know a 5 minute Onos is coming.
It's easy as hell to roll pugs with a shotgun. The spread is too damn tight.
Shotguns are inherently unbeatable because they're recyclable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Shotguns are inherently unbeatable because they're a direct counter to Close range attacks. Which is the entire theme of Alien gameplay.
The fix for both shotguns and Onos is much larger than individual tweaks. The root of this problem is poor planning and a fundamental lack of a rigid design philosophy.
Lifeforms are confused. Team mechanics are confused. Cooldowns are confused. Balance goes deeper than numbers, and this game has issues at the concept level.
Its a problem that requires a solution too dramatic to ever be undertaken by UWE.
<!--quoteo(post=1999322:date=Oct 28 2012, 09:50 PM:name=RedDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RedDragon @ Oct 28 2012, 09:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999322"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Shotguns are inherently unbeatable because they're a direct counter to Close range attacks. Which is the entire theme of Alien gameplay.
The fix for both shotguns and Onos is much larger than individual tweaks. The root of this problem is poor planning and a fundamental lack of a rigid design philosophy.
Lifeforms are confused. Team mechanics are confused. Cooldowns are confused. Balance goes deeper than numbers, and this game has issues at the concept level.
Its a problem that requires a solution too dramatic to ever be undertaken by UWE.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1999322:date=Oct 28 2012, 08:50 PM:name=RedDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RedDragon @ Oct 28 2012, 08:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999322"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Shotguns are inherently unbeatable because they're a direct counter to Close range attacks. Which is the entire theme of Alien gameplay.
The fix for both shotguns and Onos is much larger than individual tweaks. The root of this problem is poor planning and a fundamental lack of a rigid design philosophy.
Lifeforms are confused. Team mechanics are confused. Cooldowns are confused. Balance goes deeper than numbers, and this game has issues at the concept level.
Its a problem that requires a solution too dramatic to ever be undertaken by UWE.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I disagree.
It's true that SGs are borked and that there are many deep conceptual issues in this game, but though I can't speak for the technical capabilities of fixing these issues, they're really not that hard to address on a design level. Just look at where the problem is (most of which are incredibly obvious by now) and change the mechanics to serve a different purpose.
SGs are close range rape machines, but they could easily be turned into weapons that benefit people who are poor aimers but have less or little benefit to people who are accurate with the LMG.
It's true that SGs are borked and that there are many deep conceptual issues in this game, but though I can't speak for the technical capabilities of fixing these issues, they're really not that hard to address on a design level. Just look at where the problem is (most of which are incredibly obvious by now) and change the mechanics to serve a different purpose.
SGs are close range rape machines, but they could easily be turned into weapons that benefit people who are poor aimers but have less or little benefit to people who are accurate with the LMG.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Implementing an intermediate step between LMGs and some other weapon, or modifying shotguns to be less powerful while offering greater chance to hit are reasonable solutions. But my point is that the problem goes much deeper than just the shotgun. If you make either of these changes today, particularly one that means the shotgun becomes less powerful, aliens (as they are now) will ROFL-Stomp marines.
The shotgun is a problem, but the larger problem are the confused game mechanics. Whats happened is that the game has been designed around a very loose agreement as to what these asymmetrical teams should "look like" without much thought to a rigid design plan. And now we've gone through 225 builds of tweaks based on this very loose conceptualization of game mechanics (many of these builds taking no consideration of how future performance increases will effect mechanics or gameplay) and we're left with a system that is held together by little more than bandaids.
Prove me wrong, and I will be forever grateful. Because I love this game, I truly do. But I don't think I am wrong, which is honestly rather depressing.
We both agree there are deep issues here, but our main point of contention is over whether UWE can repair them. I can't say that these problems will be addressed, but I can say that fixing them is conceptually possible.
you can't address whether or not shotguns are <i>anything</i> (balanced or not), because the pellets have the capability to land completely off your crosshair. you can make the exact same shot on a flying lerk, and it has the potential to either do 17 damage, or 170. the spread isn't too tight; it's too random. consistency is key in good gameplay, and between the netcode and the "game-ending" nature of many mechanics in the game (power nodes, losing lifeforms, shotgun), there's hardly any consistency.
while I'm sure if shotguns worked properly they would be overpowered, there's no way that anyone can pull any relevant data because everyone can be performing the exact same moves, yet the random spread can be the difference between living or dying. it's a joke.
It is conceptually possible. But I have lost faith in UWE's commitment to creating a balanced game. I think at this point they're more interested in the PRESENTATION of the game, rather than its play-ability.
The fixes that need to be made to actually balance the game as it is, require an overhaul of the mechanics, and I don't think they're prepared (or have any desire) to do anything of the sort at this stage.
Its certainly possible to do, but my prediction is that we'll just keep seeing more bandaid fixes forever.
<!--quoteo(post=1999242:date=Oct 28 2012, 05:48 PM:name=SabaHell)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SabaHell @ Oct 28 2012, 05:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999242"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Even the team cooldowns are severely screwed up. Aliens are melee and rely on mobility, yet Marines have more mobility enhancing tech / abilities than aliens do (PG/beacon/etc).. Aliens need to close gaps and engage in melee, yet one of their Commander cooldowns is just a wall. It's incredibly nonsense that Marines are so much more mobile than Aliens are especially in smaller maps such as summit. These abilities should be a necessity in order to keep Marine expansion going (like PG tech on docking) rather than a huge perk to playing on that team. There is a lot of things that need to be addressed to be very honest and it feels like the wrong tweaks are being made to move things in the right direction.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Comments
Tying it to 3 hives though doesn't just 'increase' that timing, it completely takes it out of the game as a relevant factor, since usually players will hit 75 p.res long before a commander will get 3 hives and 75 t.res.... It's a really poor solution, not much different from how they fixed sentry spam by making sentries only good versus structures.
Tying it to 3 hives though doesn't just 'increase' that timing, it completely takes it out of the game as a relevant factor, since usually players will hit 75 p.res long before a commander will get 3 hives and 75 t.res.... It's a really poor solution.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A feature that has only been requested by the community over nearly a dozen times.
A feature that I've suggested multiple times since my forum join date.
But when you watch it get ignored multiple times, then features being added that goes completely against it. Yeah, you know a lost cause when you see it.
I kind of doubt that's going to happen any time soon if at all. The game itself actually works decently well right now IMO, except a few glaring issues such as weapon cycling, and the onos egg drop. There's quite a few other things as well, but they're nowhere nearly as glaring as the weapon cycling and onos eggs.
The simplest solution which would work is to somehow delay the onos egg drops to the late mid-, or end game where they're meant to appear, and somehow reduce the easy weapon cycling (the onos egg drop being the more severe issue and the topic here).
Gives them a tool to counter early Cara Onos without giving them an upgrade to the LMG, since weapons are supposed to be sidegrades.
Unlike the Shotgun, it wouldn't be something to give everyone because of the reduced damage on some types while also being self-scaling. (Early game lower lifeforms tend to not have much armor anyway)
Possibly some sort of biological agent/weapon.
No, that's the simplest band-aid fix for this symptom. This strategic imbalance is endemic of the severe issues aliens face combating shotguns and keeping up with marine advancement, and the major problems both teams face due to the ability to mingle Pres and Tres.
<!--quoteo(post=1999294:date=Oct 28 2012, 08:24 PM:name=Kopikat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kopikat @ Oct 28 2012, 08:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999294"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What about this? Give Marines a new toy (weapon or otherwise) with a damage type that deals bonus damage against armor and reduced damage vs flesh and/or structures as a counter to Onoses? (Onii?)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Should be the Flamethrower; I've been suggesting that for ages, but nobody seems to have much interest in it.
I don't think that would help because I don't think I've ever seen an AA come out before/at five minutes, much less AA + Flamethrower.
rocket science<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But if people in pubs don't understand it then it = balanced.
Gives them a tool to counter early Cara Onos without giving them an upgrade to the LMG, since weapons are supposed to be sidegrades.
Unlike the Shotgun, it wouldn't be something to give everyone because of the reduced damage on some types while also being self-scaling. (Early game lower lifeforms tend to not have much armor anyway)
Possibly some sort of biological agent/weapon.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=122353" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=122353</a>
Maybe if people suddenly had a reason to get it instead of just rushing Protos. No HMG means the only thing AA unlocks is the (bad) flamethrower and (risky) GL.
I don't see it being <i>too</i> much of a problem is if it was moved to the basic armory.
But I'm not sure about flame throwers doing bonus damage against armor. Maybe if it did % dmg against total health/armor. That way it would hurts onos more and less so the lower lifeforms (as if non-onos need anymore problems), I'd be okay with that.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maybe if people suddenly had a reason to get it instead of just rushing Protos. No HMG means the only thing AA unlocks is the (bad) flamethrower and (risky) GL.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Make it so only AA repairs armor. That would be the huge incentive to upgrade the armory.
When you make changes, you have to account for when they appear and what effect they might have on the game after they appear.
I wouldn't like to see the flamethrower buffed to an "onos killer" and then see swarms of jetpacking flamethrowers flying around steamrolling aliens later.
The marines don't need help to deal with a late-game unit such as the onos. They have plenty of ways to deal with late-game units in the late-game. The problem is that an late-game unit appears in the early game pretty regularly as we saw this weekend.
An onos has no place on the map before the marines can effectively counter it. The same way as dual exos, jetpacks, grenade launchers, etc. have no place on the map before aliens can effectively counter them.
But I'm not sure about flame throwers doing bonus damage against armor. Maybe if it did % dmg against total health/armor. That way it would hurts onos more more so than lower lifeforms (as if non-onos need anymore problems), I'd be okay with that.
Make it so only AA repairs armor. That would be the huge incentive to upgrade the armory.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Also a reasonable idea.
I agree
<!--quoteo(post=1999306:date=Oct 28 2012, 08:35 PM:name=HeatSurge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge @ Oct 28 2012, 08:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999306"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Giving marines "more toys" to combat end-game units in the early game, would make marines extremely OP end-game, when in addition to those "toys" they'll have all the other "toys" they have right now.
...
I wouldn't like to see the flamethrower buffed to an "onos killer" and then see swarms of jetpacking flamethrowers flying around steamrolling aliens later.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So take armor regeneration off of armories, triple SG firing rate and cut its damage in thirds to give aliens some semblance of a chance to react, and make the FT a weapon that's <i>good</i> against armor instead of <i>annihilating</i> it. Every weapon doesn't have to be a min-maxed glass-death-machine; you can have guns that are better in some areas than others without being devastating or useless.
When you make changes, you have to account for when they appear and what effect they might have on the game after they appear.
I wouldn't like to see the flamethrower buffed to an "onos killer" and then see swarms of jetpacking flamethrowers flying around steamrolling aliens later.
The marines don't need help to deal with a late-game unit such as the onos. They have plenty of ways to deal with late-game units in the late-game. The problem is that an late-game unit appears in the early game pretty regularly as we saw this weekend.
An onos has no place on the map before the marines can effectively counter it. The same way as dual exos, jetpacks, grenade launchers, etc. have no place on the map before aliens can effectively counter them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Kinda like marines rushing shotguns that steamrolls over early and mid-game lifeforms.
Sorry, had to do it.
Eh...I don't know, since Welders are so cheap as it is. Seems kinda needlessly frustrating.
<!--quoteo(post=1999306:date=Oct 28 2012, 06:35 PM:name=HeatSurge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge @ Oct 28 2012, 06:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999306"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Giving marines "more toys" to combat end-game units in the early game, would make marines extremely OP end-game, when in addition to those "toys" they'll have all the other "toys" they have right now.
When you make changes, you have to account for when they appear and what effect they might have on the game after they appear.
I wouldn't like to see the flamethrower buffed to an "onos killer" and then see swarms of jetpacking flamethrowers flying around steamrolling aliens later.
The marines don't need help to deal with a late-game unit such as the onos. They have plenty of ways to deal with late-game units in the late-game. The problem is that an late-game unit appears in the early game pretty regularly as we saw this weekend.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, like I said, bonus damage vs armor but reduced damage vs flesh is self-scaling because early game lower lifeforms have low armor anyway. It would help them a bit more in the late game, but not overwhelmingly so since...they already have Shotguns for all-purpose murdering. Any weapon with a higher average TTK than a Shotgun wouldn't be too much to handle, I would think.
Good (smart) marines already carry welders. It will also help reduce the amount of shotguns on the field if players have to purchase welders. It will also help reduce the cheese of armory humping on forward bases. It would also make AA a good target to go after in bases when marines turtle. Since no armor = dead marine.
Sorry, had to do it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I didn't see shotguns steamrolling fades in the tournament. Did you? Sometimes I actually saw lerks too.
Shotguns are strong, but they're not unbeatable. And they don't steam roll. Weapon recylcing is a bad issue though, and that's a separate can of worms.
Shotguns are strong, but they're not unbeatable. And they don't steam roll. Weapon recylcing is a bad issue though, and that's a separate can of worms.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Tourny aside.
It's easy as hell to roll pugs with a shotgun. The spread is too damn tight.
Shotguns are inherently unbeatable because they're recyclable.
Would this work?
Shotguns are strong, but they're not unbeatable. And they don't steam roll. Weapon recylcing is a bad issue though, and that's a separate can of worms.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Shotguns roll skulks bad enough as it is. The Onos doesn't even one-shot Marines, and it's the most expensive lifeform aliens can get. Why can Marines instantly kill their opponent's base unit with no opportunity to react or retreat? The fact that people aren't being 100% instantly murdered in every single shotgun-skulk confrontation (it's closer to 70%, I estimate) in no way affects how imbalanced the weapon is. People will hit the skill ceiling with it eventually.
<!--quoteo(post=1999319:date=Oct 28 2012, 08:46 PM:name=Iron Priest)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Iron Priest @ Oct 28 2012, 08:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999319"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What about if there was a sound that played indicating the drop of an egg? E.g., if a com drops an Onos egg, a large horn plays throughout the map. It would force the marine team to push the hive(s) to find the egg, and could be an interesting change to early game play.
Would this work?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Umm, no?
You act like teams don't already know a 5 minute Onos is coming.
It's easy as hell to roll pugs with a shotgun. The spread is too damn tight.
Shotguns are inherently unbeatable because they're recyclable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Shotguns are inherently unbeatable because they're a direct counter to Close range attacks. Which is the entire theme of Alien gameplay.
The fix for both shotguns and Onos is much larger than individual tweaks. The root of this problem is poor planning and a fundamental lack of a rigid design philosophy.
Lifeforms are confused. Team mechanics are confused. Cooldowns are confused. Balance goes deeper than numbers, and this game has issues at the concept level.
Its a problem that requires a solution too dramatic to ever be undertaken by UWE.
The fix for both shotguns and Onos is much larger than individual tweaks. The root of this problem is poor planning and a fundamental lack of a rigid design philosophy.
Lifeforms are confused. Team mechanics are confused. Cooldowns are confused. Balance goes deeper than numbers, and this game has issues at the concept level.
Its a problem that requires a solution too dramatic to ever be undertaken by UWE.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed.
The fix for both shotguns and Onos is much larger than individual tweaks. The root of this problem is poor planning and a fundamental lack of a rigid design philosophy.
Lifeforms are confused. Team mechanics are confused. Cooldowns are confused. Balance goes deeper than numbers, and this game has issues at the concept level.
Its a problem that requires a solution too dramatic to ever be undertaken by UWE.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree.
It's true that SGs are borked and that there are many deep conceptual issues in this game, but though I can't speak for the technical capabilities of fixing these issues, they're really not that hard to address on a design level. Just look at where the problem is (most of which are incredibly obvious by now) and change the mechanics to serve a different purpose.
SGs are close range rape machines, but they could easily be turned into weapons that benefit people who are poor aimers but have less or little benefit to people who are accurate with the LMG.
It's true that SGs are borked and that there are many deep conceptual issues in this game, but though I can't speak for the technical capabilities of fixing these issues, they're really not that hard to address on a design level. Just look at where the problem is (most of which are incredibly obvious by now) and change the mechanics to serve a different purpose.
SGs are close range rape machines, but they could easily be turned into weapons that benefit people who are poor aimers but have less or little benefit to people who are accurate with the LMG.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Implementing an intermediate step between LMGs and some other weapon, or modifying shotguns to be less powerful while offering greater chance to hit are reasonable solutions. But my point is that the problem goes much deeper than just the shotgun. If you make either of these changes today, particularly one that means the shotgun becomes less powerful, aliens (as they are now) will ROFL-Stomp marines.
The shotgun is a problem, but the larger problem are the confused game mechanics. Whats happened is that the game has been designed around a very loose agreement as to what these asymmetrical teams should "look like" without much thought to a rigid design plan. And now we've gone through 225 builds of tweaks based on this very loose conceptualization of game mechanics (many of these builds taking no consideration of how future performance increases will effect mechanics or gameplay) and we're left with a system that is held together by little more than bandaids.
Prove me wrong, and I will be forever grateful. Because I love this game, I truly do. But I don't think I am wrong, which is honestly rather depressing.
while I'm sure if shotguns worked properly they would be overpowered, there's no way that anyone can pull any relevant data because everyone can be performing the exact same moves, yet the random spread can be the difference between living or dying. it's a joke.
The fixes that need to be made to actually balance the game as it is, require an overhaul of the mechanics, and I don't think they're prepared (or have any desire) to do anything of the sort at this stage.
Its certainly possible to do, but my prediction is that we'll just keep seeing more bandaid fixes forever.
^