FrozenNew York, NYJoin Date: 2010-07-02Member: 72228Members, Constellation
I've had some great rounds on this map, and some serious fails as lifeform when trying to escape central processing into hallways that no longer exist xD. The removal of these hallways goes a long way for the NS2 balance though, and like how it splits the lanes.
The map is still hyper-focused on res control though, and in gathers, atleast, I've only seen aliens win on leap-strat, since it allows skulks to bite so much res and be combat effective. But it's a really fun res-control map, where my issue with it is that aliens have too much trouble with their own res nodes without the second hive. You NEED celerity to bite res. But you NEED regen for your lerks and fades early, so only a hive and leap can really cover you on the 2 grounds at once.
I don't look at this as a problem, just a unique map for the game
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited February 2016
Reading that pretty much describes my experience, but in a way I could never actually articulate. My general comment when asked is it's too hard for aliens, as it's too easy for marines to intercept or cut them off.
Well depends, if the map only offers so few options (as you seem to imply) that might be an issue. Having only one way to play it could be boring in the long run. I still believe there are many ways to play this map.
But :
I'm still not a fan of the Sewer spawn, because of the Lower Wasteflow dynamic, where you almost have to have a dedicated skulk/marine going harrassing RTs. I don't even think Lower is viable as a natural RT for aliens. And that confirms what others have said above, since marines have no problem cutting off aliens, on different routes. Purification and Ventilation are then the two Sewer naturals and can be hit easily. That almost forces the alien team to go for a tunnel every game to gain some map control (I'm only talking about early game here). So if you have one gorge + 1 skulk for map control (tunnel and dedicated skulk on Lower defense, Sanitation offense) you only have three skulks left to do the work. The map being consequently big, when you have one skulk biting on the top of the map, one in Lower side, you have two skulks and one gorge to counter marines pushes. That's a scenario i've seen multiple times. Tables then turn a bit when you get to lerks and fades. But the early game is very rough, because it's low eco on alien side and high eco for marines.
One thing though, Purification is now much better for both sides with all the extra space to move and fight around the RT.
I've never seen a Generator spawn I believe in the newest version. Can't say anything about that.
Venilation start is the most balanced map control-wise in early game.
Overall, the map is turning out to be fine. All spawns might be fine on pubs. Comp (if they put it back in the rotation) might force spawns to be Marines start and Vent and might be satisfied with it.
Have you ever tried Main Hold and Gen as random marines spawn, and Sewer/Vent as aliens' ? Seen how it went, it would be interesting maybe to see how things go down. Wether it respects the ns1 feel or the map or not.
I've got a dump of screenshots of small holes and stuff (like small overlapping textures etc) if you want to see them. (tell me)
slightly misaligned stuff
a little above the crosshairs
on the crosshairs
misaligned pipe props, slight overlap causing textures flickering
misaligned
can't see it on the picture, but under the stairs, there is an overlap of two different textures. Only on this piece of stairs, the others on the map are fine
misaligned, overlapping of two textures. only spot where it happens,
Also, for those who browse Imgur
Gorge plushie tax
this one was tough to find, i'll give you extra points
FlaterectomyNetherlandistanJoin Date: 2005-02-03Member: 39643Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
CHANGELOG [21st of february 2016]
o Fixed a lot of holes and z-fighting issues (thanks @MauvaisVitrier and @Kasharic)
o Fixed unpowered spot in Auxiliary Generator (thanks @Foxy)
o Experimental switch of Resource Node and Powernode locations in Lower Waste
o Further detailing in Bypass
o Added a little bit of cover in the southern exit corridor from Main Hold
o Tweaked lighting and some detailing in the southern exit corridor from Main Hold and part of Sanitation
If I remember well you told me that you had issues with power nodes reported by Kash. I don't know if you fixed them, or if you didn't have the time to fix them yet, but here is the spots I found myself. Crosscheck with Kash's and see if there are no spots he didn't see. There is also the glass in Aux that looks weird in com/spec view, but don't know if you can something about it
FlaterectomyNetherlandistanJoin Date: 2005-02-03Member: 39643Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
edited February 2016
Ooh, couple of silly ones there. I'l fix things! Thanks!
EDIT: Regarding the glass in Aux Gen, there will eventually be things behind it. I did make the stuff under the floor and glass just below the powernode commander-invisible to save some FPS for the commander, and I don't mind how it looks myself, but I could make it all visible again so it's not just glass-on-black.
I like the RT movement in Lower Waste, makes Pipe much nicer for aliens.
I know I have a buttload of pipes in Caged, but Pipe is in Veil. I assume you mean Sewer. Anyone else want to chime in on this? Calego's the first to really give me feedback on that change.
I like the RT movement in Lower Waste, makes Pipe much nicer for aliens.
I know I have a buttload of pipes in Caged, but Pipe is in Veil. I assume you mean Sewer. Anyone else want to chime in on this? Calego's the first to really give me feedback on that change.
My old brain is too busy remembering important things like whether those boxes leading up to marine start were there before to be bothered with such details. Bah. I mean cmon, it's basically a room of pipes...
Those are nice as well btw. Gives a retreating alien team more to hide with.
EDIT: I like that in spite of that mix up, people still knew what i was talking about. (Don't listen to what I say, listen to what I mean).
I don't mind it, it helps a bit. But as someone said (I think it was beige during the scc if I'm not mistaken) it doesn't change much. The dynamic stays the same, you have to defend it all the time. It is easier though to defend.
So : it's still easy for marines to push it BUT aliens have a more decent chance at defending it, 'cause of the vent, of the location, and travel time
FlaterectomyNetherlandistanJoin Date: 2005-02-03Member: 39643Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
If the resource node ends up staying where it is now, I will redesign Lower Wasteflow a little to make it look and feel more natural. It'll be mostly aesthetic work, no giant room changes.
FlaterectomyNetherlandistanJoin Date: 2005-02-03Member: 39643Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
Ding!
CHANGELOG [28th of february 2016]
o More detailing in Bypass
o Fixed a few stuck(-ish) spots in Bypass
o Fixed a stuck spot in Monitoring (thanks @GISP)
o Moved some floor collision geometry in Monitoring to remove the bouncing effect when walking over it
o Fixed some location issues in Life Support and the Wasteflow rooms (thanks @MauvaisVitrier)
I know there's a lot more bouncing across floor props in the map. I'll do a full pass on those things at some point.
FlaterectomyNetherlandistanJoin Date: 2005-02-03Member: 39643Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
It's Sunday already!
CHANGELOG [6th of march 2016]
o Completed detailing in Bypass, except for the bits under the floor.
o Added a bunch of collision geometry on the walls near the Bypass -> Life Support vent
o Added collision geometry on the wall-mounted pipes in the glass corridor in Purification
o Removed a near-stuck point behind the purifier's terminal in Purification
o Fixed stuck spot at the new ladder and panel in Main Hold
o Resized collision geometry on big pipes in Sewer to remove a near-stuck spot
o Fixed stuck spot in Ready Room (thanks @MisterOizo )
o Made it possible to drop medpacks in the Bypass -> Life Support vent
There is now also a good reason to look at all of the things in Bypass.
FlaterectomyNetherlandistanJoin Date: 2005-02-03Member: 39643Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
Hold on to your butts!
CHANGELOG [27th of march 2016]
o Fixed hole under powernode in Central
o Fixed stuck spot on a chair in Monitoring next to the Shortcut exit
o Fixed stuck spots on the vertical pipes in Life Support
o Fixed Occlusion Geometry under the Bypass -> Purification floor
o Improved Commander Invisible geometry on southern side of Central
o Added some detail to a boring corner near the ceiling in Life Support above the Bypass exit
o Added more character to the Shortcut corner towards Central
o Dumped a bunch of bilebombs in a crate in the Ready Room
o Finished detailing the connection between Bypass and Central
o Detailed below the stairs in Bypass
FlaterectomyNetherlandistanJoin Date: 2005-02-03Member: 39643Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
Well excuuuse me for picking the other screenshot and not thinking about how the toilets aren't visible in that one! I guess you'll just have to see it in-game. Well, the doors to the toilets, anyway.
Well excuuuse me for picking the other screenshot and not thinking about how the toilets aren't visible in that one! I guess you'll just have to see it in-game. Well, the doors to the toilets, anyway.
You posted three of the four screenshots you had. You omitted the one with the toilets. Goddammit flat, get your shit together.
FlaterectomyNetherlandistanJoin Date: 2005-02-03Member: 39643Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
Ventilation will come once all prerequisites are met.
CHANGELOG [10th of april 2016]
o Added a cyst next to the res node in Generator so new ones can be built if the aliens' starting harvester is echoed out
o Fixed jitter effect that occurred when skulks got between the doorframe and the 'new' machine in the corner of Shortcut near Central
o Added a ladder entity to the ladder south of Central, eventhough it doesn't lead anywhere
o Fixed blinking light prop under Bypass floor due to occlusion geometry
o New occlusion geometry in Upper Wasteflow, reducing drawcalls from 3100 to 2400 in one spot
o New occlusion geometry in Lower Wasteflow
o Moved the Lower Wasteflow resource node to the platform on the west side of the room
o Detailed the vent between Bypass and Upper Wasteflow
o Early phase of detailing the vent between Sewer and Purification
o Began replacing the ladders in the ready room's Random portal with toilets
o Slight re-detailing in Sanitation - not happy yet, will tweak this some more
o "Flattened" some of the floor in Main Hold by adding collision geometry on lower parts and making higher parts non-collidable
o Fixed little gap between pipe props in Sewer
Comments
The map is still hyper-focused on res control though, and in gathers, atleast, I've only seen aliens win on leap-strat, since it allows skulks to bite so much res and be combat effective. But it's a really fun res-control map, where my issue with it is that aliens have too much trouble with their own res nodes without the second hive. You NEED celerity to bite res. But you NEED regen for your lerks and fades early, so only a hive and leap can really cover you on the 2 grounds at once.
I don't look at this as a problem, just a unique map for the game
Your feedback is much more helpful
EDIT
I am so glad you didn't keep working on entropy, if only for the time it would have taken to complete...
Will this map be finished before the 4th anniversary of this thread?
But :
I'm still not a fan of the Sewer spawn, because of the Lower Wasteflow dynamic, where you almost have to have a dedicated skulk/marine going harrassing RTs. I don't even think Lower is viable as a natural RT for aliens. And that confirms what others have said above, since marines have no problem cutting off aliens, on different routes. Purification and Ventilation are then the two Sewer naturals and can be hit easily. That almost forces the alien team to go for a tunnel every game to gain some map control (I'm only talking about early game here). So if you have one gorge + 1 skulk for map control (tunnel and dedicated skulk on Lower defense, Sanitation offense) you only have three skulks left to do the work. The map being consequently big, when you have one skulk biting on the top of the map, one in Lower side, you have two skulks and one gorge to counter marines pushes. That's a scenario i've seen multiple times. Tables then turn a bit when you get to lerks and fades. But the early game is very rough, because it's low eco on alien side and high eco for marines.
One thing though, Purification is now much better for both sides with all the extra space to move and fight around the RT.
I've never seen a Generator spawn I believe in the newest version. Can't say anything about that.
Venilation start is the most balanced map control-wise in early game.
Overall, the map is turning out to be fine. All spawns might be fine on pubs. Comp (if they put it back in the rotation) might force spawns to be Marines start and Vent and might be satisfied with it.
Have you ever tried Main Hold and Gen as random marines spawn, and Sewer/Vent as aliens' ? Seen how it went, it would be interesting maybe to see how things go down. Wether it respects the ns1 feel or the map or not.
I've got a dump of screenshots of small holes and stuff (like small overlapping textures etc) if you want to see them. (tell me)
@MauvaisVitrier Give me your screenshots! I will fix things.
a little above the crosshairs
on the crosshairs
misaligned pipe props, slight overlap causing textures flickering
misaligned
can't see it on the picture, but under the stairs, there is an overlap of two different textures. Only on this piece of stairs, the others on the map are fine
misaligned, overlapping of two textures. only spot where it happens,
Also, for those who browse Imgur
Gorge plushie tax
this one was tough to find, i'll give you extra points
o Fixed a lot of holes and z-fighting issues (thanks @MauvaisVitrier and @Kasharic)
o Fixed unpowered spot in Auxiliary Generator (thanks @Foxy)
o Experimental switch of Resource Node and Powernode locations in Lower Waste
o Further detailing in Bypass
o Added a little bit of cover in the southern exit corridor from Main Hold
o Tweaked lighting and some detailing in the southern exit corridor from Main Hold and part of Sanitation
Screenshots:
And this one is my favorite
EDIT: Regarding the glass in Aux Gen, there will eventually be things behind it. I did make the stuff under the floor and glass just below the powernode commander-invisible to save some FPS for the commander, and I don't mind how it looks myself, but I could make it all visible again so it's not just glass-on-black.
I know I have a buttload of pipes in Caged, but Pipe is in Veil.
My old brain is too busy remembering important things like whether those boxes leading up to marine start were there before to be bothered with such details. Bah. I mean cmon, it's basically a room of pipes...
Those are nice as well btw. Gives a retreating alien team more to hide with.
EDIT: I like that in spite of that mix up, people still knew what i was talking about. (Don't listen to what I say, listen to what I mean).
So : it's still easy for marines to push it BUT aliens have a more decent chance at defending it, 'cause of the vent, of the location, and travel time
CHANGELOG [28th of february 2016]
o More detailing in Bypass
o Fixed a few stuck(-ish) spots in Bypass
o Fixed a stuck spot in Monitoring (thanks @GISP)
o Moved some floor collision geometry in Monitoring to remove the bouncing effect when walking over it
o Fixed some location issues in Life Support and the Wasteflow rooms (thanks @MauvaisVitrier)
I know there's a lot more bouncing across floor props in the map. I'll do a full pass on those things at some point.
CHANGELOG [6th of march 2016]
o Completed detailing in Bypass, except for the bits under the floor.
o Added a bunch of collision geometry on the walls near the Bypass -> Life Support vent
o Added collision geometry on the wall-mounted pipes in the glass corridor in Purification
o Removed a near-stuck point behind the purifier's terminal in Purification
o Fixed stuck spot at the new ladder and panel in Main Hold
o Resized collision geometry on big pipes in Sewer to remove a near-stuck spot
o Fixed stuck spot in Ready Room (thanks @MisterOizo )
o Made it possible to drop medpacks in the Bypass -> Life Support vent
There is now also a good reason to look at all of the things in Bypass.
CHANGELOG [27th of march 2016]
o Fixed hole under powernode in Central
o Fixed stuck spot on a chair in Monitoring next to the Shortcut exit
o Fixed stuck spots on the vertical pipes in Life Support
o Fixed Occlusion Geometry under the Bypass -> Purification floor
o Improved Commander Invisible geometry on southern side of Central
o Added some detail to a boring corner near the ceiling in Life Support above the Bypass exit
o Added more character to the Shortcut corner towards Central
o Dumped a bunch of bilebombs in a crate in the Ready Room
o Finished detailing the connection between Bypass and Central
o Detailed below the stairs in Bypass
Less bland Shortcut -> Central corner:
Central -> Life Support area, now with toilets:
What toilets? I see no toilets!
You posted three of the four screenshots you had. You omitted the one with the toilets. Goddammit flat, get your shit together.
:P
Well, you did a marvellous job recreating them :P
CHANGELOG [10th of april 2016]
o Added a cyst next to the res node in Generator so new ones can be built if the aliens' starting harvester is echoed out
o Fixed jitter effect that occurred when skulks got between the doorframe and the 'new' machine in the corner of Shortcut near Central
o Added a ladder entity to the ladder south of Central, eventhough it doesn't lead anywhere
o Fixed blinking light prop under Bypass floor due to occlusion geometry
o New occlusion geometry in Upper Wasteflow, reducing drawcalls from 3100 to 2400 in one spot
o New occlusion geometry in Lower Wasteflow
o Moved the Lower Wasteflow resource node to the platform on the west side of the room
o Detailed the vent between Bypass and Upper Wasteflow
o Early phase of detailing the vent between Sewer and Purification
o Began replacing the ladders in the ready room's Random portal with toilets
o Slight re-detailing in Sanitation - not happy yet, will tweak this some more
o "Flattened" some of the floor in Main Hold by adding collision geometry on lower parts and making higher parts non-collidable
o Fixed little gap between pipe props in Sewer
Great work!