FlaterectomyNetherlandistanJoin Date: 2005-02-03Member: 39643Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
CHANGELOG [19th of october 2014]
o Detailed the area around the res node in Monitoring further
o Detailed a ceiling in the corridor connecting the east corridor of Central processing to Upper Shipping Access
o Detailed a part of the readyroom
FlaterectomyNetherlandistanJoin Date: 2005-02-03Member: 39643Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
CHANGELOG [2nd of november 2014]
o Some detailing of the Ready Room
o Some detailing of the corner between Shortcut and the northeast of Central Processing
o Moved Location names in a few rooms
FlaterectomyNetherlandistanJoin Date: 2005-02-03Member: 39643Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
Sort of re-greyboxing in preparation for detailing. Roughing out shapes. Not sure if I will release a build before I've detailed it, but if Vent starts without an RT I might have to.
FlaterectomyNetherlandistanJoin Date: 2005-02-03Member: 39643Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
This week saw the following:
CHANGELOG 9th of november 2014]
o Re-greyboxed Ventilation in preparation for detailing.
CHANGELOG [8th of november 2014]
o Fixed Ventilation resnode not spawning at start of game (resnode was actually inside a Purification location entity - d'oh!)
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
There is a stairs somewhere, where on both sides of the stairs are world gaps.
Yes I know, specifics!.. if I shall not forget when I am home later on, I shall see.
Really cannot wait til this is all done and officially released, such a good map to play on and the creator done it some justice to bring into NS2, had so many good times playing this on NS1
MephillesGermanyJoin Date: 2013-08-07Member: 186634Members, NS2 Map Tester, NS2 Community Developer
I personally think that hallway between purification and central needs his own location entitiy and his own name. I always struggle to describe that location when enemies are in there
I personally think that hallway between purification and central needs his own location entitiy and his own name. I always struggle to describe that location when enemies are in there
I've been thinking that as well. Suggestions for the power node location? Where should the border between Puri and this new location be exactly? I'm open to votes!
FlaterectomyNetherlandistanJoin Date: 2005-02-03Member: 39643Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
CHANGELOG [23rd of november 2014]
o Textured the Ventilation greybox
o Added more space behind the Ventilation resource node
o Detailed most of Life Support
o Detailed the stairs east and west of Central Processing
Anyway you could implement extra entities for weldable doors that are near old double?
No, I'm going to keep this map vanilla, so unless the CDT implements those entities in regular NS2 I won't be adding those, and even then I'd have to do some careful thinking. Welders being available from the start would make this something of an exercise in futility.
FlaterectomyNetherlandistanJoin Date: 2005-02-03Member: 39643Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
New build today, didn't quite finish detailing (Upper Shipping) Access, but I wanted to get a build out.
CHANGELOG [14th of december 2014]
o Renamed Upper Shipping Access to just 'Access' to avoid confusion with Shipping Tunnels and Upper Wasteflow
o Detailed a large portion of Access
o Fixed stuck spot in That One Hallway (thanks Nordic)
Loved what you did with Access and Life Support. You have to know though that the corridors in Bypass, and south of life support, the ones going to Vent and Puri are deadly to lifeforms. Marines put a PG in life support during a pcw and it was a PAIN to try and get the marines there. Going through these tight corridors as lifeforms was horrible.
After quite a few pcws and matches played on that map, it appears that it is hugely alien favored, mainly because of the possibility to turtle hard and be able to counter any marines push once pgs are up. I'd like to see more comp players leave their opinion on this thread to see what they have to say about it
Every one knows that during a match between balanced teams, if you count out lifeform flashes, lerks will gain the upper hand (after marines won some map control over skulks). This time is ideal to start and expand more agressively wherever you can as alien. Considering travel times, if you get cleaned up even once when you try to prevent the drop of an RT it gets tricky. When fades come out, it's even more difficult.
But the fact that pressuring RTs whether or not you killed lifeforms is not the main point. The point is, since it takes too much time going to certain places (hmm shipping tunnels) or since it's not worth going to the East side of the map (too isolated) you loose a lot of precious time. Time during which aliens stock both Pres and Tres.
I've seen plenty of games ending with 3 onos or multiple re-lifeform. It tends to have the same kind of feel Veil has. Takes time to get out of base, your natural RTs are quite easy to reach for aliens and take too much time to defend as marines.
For example, as marines, you have Upper Shipping, Monitoring, Aux Gen and Central as RTs. You loose Aux Gen, you send one guy while the rest of the team goes elsewhere. that guy rebuilds Aux Gen and goes on to Gen to destroy a harvester, he eventually gets cleaned up and is likely to loose both Aux Gen and Monitoring.
When you look at Tram, Summit, Biodome or even Jambi, when aliens get to the marines natural, that is a risky move. You can get trapped, it's usually not safe to send lifeforms there when you don't know where marines are. But I never got this fear when going to Monitoring as Lerk, not even as skulk, too easy to get out alive, no real risk. It's easy to take down all the marines naturals without putting myself in jeopardy. At least that's how I feel.
Of course each map has its particularities (if you start in Server Room on tram, it's easier to turtle on three res for example than when you start in Shipping), but I feel like more thought you be put into "is this lane worth it or not", "is it worth the time ?" etc.. For example, right now, it's not worth it to go to Gen via Aux Gen, once you're there, you can't go anywhere else.
I don't know if i'm clear enough in what i'm trying to explain, but I think there's an issue with turtling on this map (yeah turtling can be done on every map if done well, but here it is favored by the level design), whether you're doing fine as marines or not. Of course you can see both marines and alien wins, but a majority of the matches played ended up with aliens winning. And if aliens had issues winning in early and mid, they managed to get back on their feet after a while.
You have to take into account the push vs counter push. When aliens bite RTs, you can choose to trade them for aliens harvesters, but if it takes way too much time to push say Shipping Tunnels, will people go there ? will it be an "even" trade ?
For instance pushing two harvesters at the same time on Tram, Summit, Jambi, Biodome with 3 marines is doable. On caged it seems like aliens can both bite and come back to defend before anything can go down of their own stuff.
And all I'm saying applies to the East/South-East of the map. Too isolated, travel times between point A and B too long. I didn't actually calculated them, but when you usually do that you tend not to take into account what can happen on the way to point B (skulks, defense of an RT, holding a position for 10 sc to lane block).
I personnally think on a game between fairly balanced teams, aliens will still get the upper hand, not because of aliens OP, but because of the level design. Solutions ? I don't really know, less bigger map, more connectivity to the East side ? who knows ? As long as it's not tested I guess we won't have a clear answer.
One thing I'm sure of though is that people in the competitive scene have to say stuff about this map, that could be put into good use, but where are they ? I like caged, I like the atmosphere, most rooms are well designed, and I think some changes would make it a great map.
MephillesGermanyJoin Date: 2013-08-07Member: 186634Members, NS2 Map Tester, NS2 Community Developer
Basically I agree with what MV says. It feels like you NEED Phase Gates to laneblock properly as marines. It's also hard to react on any resbiting properly
My 2 cents. Smaller maps are usually wrong. Easier to learn, and feeling better do not help. It's a trap in fact.
1 because ARC distances cannot be managed with entities.
2 usually they got less ressource points. It makes things a little faster in the way "you loose something, it's hard to come back". Or at least hard to keep up the pace (upgrade, time lost).
@MV
Same symptoms as Veil as you describe it. Something critical is lost = brace yourself.
Agreed for the east side. It's been a long time since i'm wondering what a 5th hive would do. At least i'm sure the east side would be more crowded.
But for what i read from you, you say lerks turn the game upside down as marine cannot keep their ground in the end (yes you said travel time, but it's the same on map control topics).
Comments
o Detailed the area around the res node in Monitoring further
o Detailed a ceiling in the corridor connecting the east corridor of Central processing to Upper Shipping Access
o Detailed a part of the readyroom
o Some detailing of the Ready Room
o Some detailing of the corner between Shortcut and the northeast of Central Processing
o Moved Location names in a few rooms
[21:42:27]Warning: Failed to spawn a resource tower for tech point in location: Ventilation System
No idea if relevant. But aliens really did start without a harvester >-)
CHANGELOG 9th of november 2014]
o Re-greyboxed Ventilation in preparation for detailing.
CHANGELOG [8th of november 2014]
o Fixed Ventilation resnode not spawning at start of game (resnode was actually inside a Purification location entity - d'oh!)
Yes I know, specifics!.. if I shall not forget when I am home later on, I shall see.
my vote for this
blue lines are the border of that entitiy and the yellow dots possible power node locations.
the lower power node is behind some pipes so it can't get bile bombed from the life support vent IIRC
my vote for this
blue lines are the border of that entitiy and the yellow dots possible power node locations.
the lower power node is behind some pipes so it can't get bile bombed from the life support vent IIRC
o Textured the Ventilation greybox
o Added more space behind the Ventilation resource node
o Detailed most of Life Support
o Detailed the stairs east and west of Central Processing
Also, apparently the screenshot above was yesterday's Image Of The Day at gamedev.net (though I am entirely unfamiliar with this website). Huzzah!
http://www.gamedev.net/page/showdown/view.html/_/flaterectomy-r59167
No, I'm going to keep this map vanilla, so unless the CDT implements those entities in regular NS2 I won't be adding those, and even then I'd have to do some careful thinking. Welders being available from the start would make this something of an exercise in futility.
http://i.imgur.com/KhxWPzx.jpg
CHANGELOG [14th of december 2014]
o Renamed Upper Shipping Access to just 'Access' to avoid confusion with Shipping Tunnels and Upper Wasteflow
o Detailed a large portion of Access
o Fixed stuck spot in That One Hallway (thanks Nordic)
After quite a few pcws and matches played on that map, it appears that it is hugely alien favored, mainly because of the possibility to turtle hard and be able to counter any marines push once pgs are up. I'd like to see more comp players leave their opinion on this thread to see what they have to say about it
Is it clearly the skulks that win the game or things take a turn when lerk or fades are out.
And when are they out?
What is to your knowledge the pivot point?
But the fact that pressuring RTs whether or not you killed lifeforms is not the main point. The point is, since it takes too much time going to certain places (hmm shipping tunnels) or since it's not worth going to the East side of the map (too isolated) you loose a lot of precious time. Time during which aliens stock both Pres and Tres.
I've seen plenty of games ending with 3 onos or multiple re-lifeform. It tends to have the same kind of feel Veil has. Takes time to get out of base, your natural RTs are quite easy to reach for aliens and take too much time to defend as marines.
For example, as marines, you have Upper Shipping, Monitoring, Aux Gen and Central as RTs. You loose Aux Gen, you send one guy while the rest of the team goes elsewhere. that guy rebuilds Aux Gen and goes on to Gen to destroy a harvester, he eventually gets cleaned up and is likely to loose both Aux Gen and Monitoring.
When you look at Tram, Summit, Biodome or even Jambi, when aliens get to the marines natural, that is a risky move. You can get trapped, it's usually not safe to send lifeforms there when you don't know where marines are. But I never got this fear when going to Monitoring as Lerk, not even as skulk, too easy to get out alive, no real risk. It's easy to take down all the marines naturals without putting myself in jeopardy. At least that's how I feel.
Of course each map has its particularities (if you start in Server Room on tram, it's easier to turtle on three res for example than when you start in Shipping), but I feel like more thought you be put into "is this lane worth it or not", "is it worth the time ?" etc.. For example, right now, it's not worth it to go to Gen via Aux Gen, once you're there, you can't go anywhere else.
I don't know if i'm clear enough in what i'm trying to explain, but I think there's an issue with turtling on this map (yeah turtling can be done on every map if done well, but here it is favored by the level design), whether you're doing fine as marines or not. Of course you can see both marines and alien wins, but a majority of the matches played ended up with aliens winning. And if aliens had issues winning in early and mid, they managed to get back on their feet after a while.
You have to take into account the push vs counter push. When aliens bite RTs, you can choose to trade them for aliens harvesters, but if it takes way too much time to push say Shipping Tunnels, will people go there ? will it be an "even" trade ?
For instance pushing two harvesters at the same time on Tram, Summit, Jambi, Biodome with 3 marines is doable. On caged it seems like aliens can both bite and come back to defend before anything can go down of their own stuff.
And all I'm saying applies to the East/South-East of the map. Too isolated, travel times between point A and B too long. I didn't actually calculated them, but when you usually do that you tend not to take into account what can happen on the way to point B (skulks, defense of an RT, holding a position for 10 sc to lane block).
I personnally think on a game between fairly balanced teams, aliens will still get the upper hand, not because of aliens OP, but because of the level design. Solutions ? I don't really know, less bigger map, more connectivity to the East side ? who knows ? As long as it's not tested I guess we won't have a clear answer.
One thing I'm sure of though is that people in the competitive scene have to say stuff about this map, that could be put into good use, but where are they ? I like caged, I like the atmosphere, most rooms are well designed, and I think some changes would make it a great map.
1 because ARC distances cannot be managed with entities.
2 usually they got less ressource points. It makes things a little faster in the way "you loose something, it's hard to come back". Or at least hard to keep up the pace (upgrade, time lost).
@MV
Same symptoms as Veil as you describe it. Something critical is lost = brace yourself.
Agreed for the east side. It's been a long time since i'm wondering what a 5th hive would do. At least i'm sure the east side would be more crowded.
But for what i read from you, you say lerks turn the game upside down as marine cannot keep their ground in the end (yes you said travel time, but it's the same on map control topics).