<!--quoteo(post=1991875:date=Oct 15 2012, 01:56 PM:name=MisterNubs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MisterNubs @ Oct 15 2012, 01:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1991875"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ask steam for a refund.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Seriously. Of course new players are going to need some time to get used to the game before they can combat experienced people who practice. If you're just now realizing this and regretting your decision to buy a game because you won't instantly be able to pick it up and dominate players who have spent months or years working on their game, Steam Support should be able to refund you that money so you can buy a copy of Recettear or Peggle or something.
And if they say refunds aren't their department, you can always contact UWE. They've been very helpful with refunding the purchases of people who have changed their minds in the past.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->buy a copy of Recettear or Peggle or something.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or use it to buy Borderlands 2.
If you already have Borderlands 2, get the season pass!
<!--quoteo(post=1991882:date=Oct 15 2012, 02:07 PM:name=MisterNubs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MisterNubs @ Oct 15 2012, 02:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1991882"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Or use it to buy Borderlands 2.
If you already have Borderlands 2, get the season pass!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Seriously. That game doesn't limit new players at all. You can turn on auto-aim and edit the configs to give yourself a lvl 50 character right when you load it up. Plus, it has an amazing story and a plethora of well designed personalities.
<!--quoteo(post=1991357:date=Oct 14 2012, 09:15 PM:name=Underwhelmed)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Underwhelmed @ Oct 14 2012, 09:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1991357"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If Starcraft 1 developers listened to the low-level players instead of professionals, the ZvT metagame would still be stuck at 2 hive lurker vs 1 base marine/tank rush. Don't listen to what bad players have to say about balance, they're bad for a reason.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know 12 year olds that obliterated people in NS1 simply because they had Coke induced ADHD and aimed like robots on crack. That made them pretty damn good. Do you think they should be consulted for balance suggestions? You do realise this is an FPS right? Mastery of the core game mechanic requires absolutely no knowledge of the game itself.
<!--quoteo(post=1991875:date=Oct 15 2012, 01:56 PM:name=MisterNubs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MisterNubs @ Oct 15 2012, 01:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1991875"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ask steam for a refund.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think we need to exaggerate. NS 2 is going to be a game enjoyed by many. Most players in this thread and on these forums, who you see complain about some aspects of the game, do so with NS 1 in mind and because they feel the game could be offering so much more than what it already offers.
I mean, worst case scenario you can always go play NS2C or some of the other mods NS2 will have available on release day, I reckon those alone will be well worth the 20 bucks if you end up not appreciating vanilla.
It's not an exaggeration. The post we are quoting is expressing buyer's remorse with regard to discovering they will be less capable than "you guys" (experienced beta testers). We as a society have a solution for buyer's remorse; the author of said post need not suffer feelings of regret when he can reverse his purchase and spend his money on something more to his liking.
Caveat Emptor is applying less and less in our modern age. The focus of responsibility for education remains on the consumer, but the penalties for its shortcomings are becoming less severe as technology advances and goods become less tangible.
<!--quoteo(post=1991886:date=Oct 15 2012, 09:12 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Oct 15 2012, 09:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1991886"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Seriously. That game doesn't limit new players at all. You can turn on auto-aim and edit the configs to give yourself a lvl 50 character right when you load it up. Plus, it has an amazing story and a plethora of well designed personalities.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1991902:date=Oct 15 2012, 02:29 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Oct 15 2012, 02:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1991902"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->ITS FUNNY BECAUSE ITS AN AWFUL GAME<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I disagree. I find it quite enjoyable, and in the absence of evidence relegate your opinion on the matter to nothing more than that.
<!--quoteo(post=1991903:date=Oct 15 2012, 09:32 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Oct 15 2012, 09:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1991903"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I disagree. I find it quite enjoyable, and in the absence of evidence relegate your opinion on the matter to nothing more than that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I should have stated it, but I was more referring to team stacking mentioned very early in the thread. I hate that in any game, honestly.
Noticed it a lot in War of the Roses. One side would win, so everyone spam clicks to join that side and then they do continue to win.
Although this is different, I know. Since each side plays completely different. Just disheartening how it appears that it seems one-sided to many testers.
I'd like to point out that nobody ever comes on the forums to ###### about all the balanced, unstacked games they just had to deal with. Basing your view of a game from what people bother to post about is going to give you a heavily biased result. UWE already knows what they're doing right (defaulting to everything, since they're the developers); this is the place people come to tell them they're doing wrong.
<!--quoteo(post=1991932:date=Oct 15 2012, 04:16 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Oct 15 2012, 04:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1991932"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd like to point out that nobody ever comes on the forums to ###### about all the balanced, unstacked games they just had to deal with. Basing your view of a game from what people bother to post about is going to give you a heavily biased result. UWE already knows what they're doing right (defaulting to everything, since they're the developers); this is the place people come to tell them they're doing wrong.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yep they sure do <a href="http://www.ns2stats.org/all/index" target="_blank">http://www.ns2stats.org/all/index</a>
<!--quoteo(post=1991954:date=Oct 15 2012, 05:00 PM:name=ChickenOfWar)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ChickenOfWar @ Oct 15 2012, 05:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1991954"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yep they sure do <a href="http://www.ns2stats.org/all/index" target="_blank">http://www.ns2stats.org/all/index</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Even though the sample size is pitifully small and it being ns2stats 'n all... 65.52% marines / 34.48% Aliens. <img src="http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/3411/1285877835000.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Also, notice how all the top players have been stacking marines.
<!--quoteo(post=1991971:date=Oct 15 2012, 05:16 PM:name=MisterNubs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MisterNubs @ Oct 15 2012, 05:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1991971"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, notice how all the top players have been stacking marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Only cuz taking a nap is more exciting than playing aliens. ;)
I think a major part of it, is marines spawn with tech level improvements, can equip guns instantly, and guns that 1 shot evolved aliens --- aliens need to evolve after spawn to get any upgrades, have no damage increase on a stock unit through evolution and rely on melee hitboxing/collisions to do any real damage --- there is an obvious bias by design, if the netcode was built up from the idea that melee hits are what's most important and collisions at close range, it would be a fairer game at current ruleset --- you could modify marines hitboxing to be bigger / make alien melee a large arc of damage / give aliens an evolution of +damage / give Hydras and Lerk shoot some form of lethal damage (or a base attack that ignores armour) --- there are also bias in the current speed which marines can get rez nozzles locked down and built then take forever to kill, it should always be harder to build than destroy (especially phase tech).
this will get immature responses no doubt, but hope a dev reads this and considers the current status of the game. -- thanks for reading my opinion.
<!--quoteo(post=1992000:date=Oct 16 2012, 01:44 AM:name=Scubbo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Scubbo @ Oct 16 2012, 01:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1992000"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think a major part of it, is marines spawn with tech level improvements, can equip guns instantly, and guns that 1 shot evolved aliens --- aliens need to evolve after spawn to get any upgrades, have no damage increase on a stock unit through evolution and rely on melee hitboxing/collisions to do any real damage --- there is an obvious bias by design, if the netcode was built up from the idea that melee hits are what's most important and collisions at close range, it would be a fairer game at current ruleset --- you could modify marines hitboxing to be bigger / make alien melee a large arc of damage / give aliens an evolution of +damage / give Hydras and Lerk shoot some form of lethal damage (or a base attack that ignores armour) --- there are also bias in the current speed which marines can get rez nozzles locked down and built then take forever to kill, it should always be harder to build than destroy (especially phase tech).
this will get immature responses no doubt, but hope a dev reads this and considers the current status of the game. -- thanks for reading my opinion.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is no inherent flaw in the gameplay design, aliens were completely dominating 5-6 patches ago, marines have just gotten a bit too much love especially with the new movement, the knockback bug and the fact that players are still adjusting with the new bite cone and range. With a few more tweaks on the alien side, it should even up eventually.
No inherent flaw in gameplay design? I think you must be delusional. They've made quite a large number of changes from the time when aliens were clearly OP, changes that also ended up changing the metagame. The whole aliens being non-viable at 1-hive business for example showcases how it's not just some finetuning, there's some fundamental problems with the underlying alien hive tech deisgn currently in place. (No room for comebacks if second hive is lost, skulks not being competitive at 1 hive at midgame, etc)
Granted there's some easy fixes, but I would say it's more than just fine-tuning, really.
Why do skulks need need 2nd hive? Leap of course. Why do skulks need leap? Because they were nerfed and marines were buffed.
Giving skulks better skill based movement among other things should make them viable in mid and even game and should give aliens a chance in 1 hive situations while the aliens try to recover and re-expand.
Balance can be very volatile and a few small buffs can really turn the tide and lead to total alien domination like in the past. Changes should be done with a scalpel, not a machete.
<!--quoteo(post=1992016:date=Oct 15 2012, 06:23 PM:name=middleman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (middleman @ Oct 15 2012, 06:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1992016"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Dude im on the top of this ns stats, and i get tons of kills, but i am still getting rocked by noob marines.
Looking forward to fixes : P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Watch out guys, we got a badass over here.
<!--quoteo(post=1992021:date=Oct 15 2012, 06:30 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Oct 15 2012, 06:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1992021"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's not the same without the .gif<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <img src="http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/200/420/BRTky.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<!--quoteo(post=1992008:date=Oct 15 2012, 07:02 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Oct 15 2012, 07:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1992008"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No inherent flaw in gameplay design? I think you must be delusional. They've made quite a large number of changes from the time when aliens were clearly OP, changes that also ended up changing the metagame. The whole aliens being non-viable at 1-hive business for example showcases how it's not just some finetuning, there's some fundamental problems with the underlying alien hive tech deisgn currently in place. (No room for comebacks if second hive is lost, skulks not being competitive at 1 hive at midgame, etc)
Granted there's some easy fixes, but I would say it's more than just fine-tuning, really.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Repeating the same thing for the last 6 months. Aliens require a structure similar in nature to the Marine's arms lab where they can continue to upgrade and scale throughout the game without requiring tech points just like marines. Perhaps carapace and celerity as upgrades on the new structure, and filling in the spots with something new for the hive tech.
Blink needs to be swapped with shadow step and become baseline so fades don't suck on one hive.
<!--quoteo(post=1991888:date=Oct 15 2012, 02:14 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Oct 15 2012, 02:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1991888"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I know 12 year olds that obliterated people in NS1 simply because they had Coke induced ADHD and aimed like robots on crack. That made them pretty damn good. Do you think they should be consulted for balance suggestions? You do realise this is an FPS right? Mastery of the core game mechanic requires absolutely no knowledge of the game itself.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm sorry, but the good players weren't just good at the technical aspects of NS. Rather, aim and movement above a certain threshhold are prerequisites and not a substitute for good positioning, timing, and understanding of the game. Better coordinated teams regularly beat teams with higher individual skill. This is pretty much the same argument people who didn't understand the game trotted out about Starcraft (All you do is spam units with 300 APM and win!) Even if it were true, all else equal, I'd take the opinion of somebody who has played enough to develop that aim over somebody who hasn't.
<!--quoteo(post=1992040:date=Oct 16 2012, 01:14 PM:name=peregrinus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (peregrinus @ Oct 16 2012, 01:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1992040"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm a bit frustrated. We're told its balanced and people who complain about aliens are wrong.
So why do so many people complain about aliens on the forums and in game, much more than they complain about marines?
Doesn't it mean aliens need to be changed in some ways, even if they are balanced?
Do UW have any plans to make alien gameplay as enjoyable as marine?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Luckily! it can be modded, so they haven't blown both feet off, will be interesting to see the future of the game and wether a mod will surpass the orignal game as its designed by Pub Players more than the few clanners around (much like DayZ pulled arma2 from the grave)
<!--quoteo(post=1991971:date=Oct 15 2012, 10:16 PM:name=MisterNubs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MisterNubs @ Oct 15 2012, 10:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1991971"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Even though the sample size is pitifully small and it being ns2stats 'n all... 65.52% marines / 34.48% Aliens. <img src="http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/3411/1285877835000.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Also, notice how all the top players have been stacking marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or stacking aliens. This messes up the balance stats quite a bit I guess. UW should ask if there's someone with a degree in statistics to make sense of it all ^^
Comments
Seriously. Of course new players are going to need some time to get used to the game before they can combat experienced people who practice. If you're just now realizing this and regretting your decision to buy a game because you won't instantly be able to pick it up and dominate players who have spent months or years working on their game, Steam Support should be able to refund you that money so you can buy a copy of Recettear or Peggle or something.
And if they say refunds aren't their department, you can always contact UWE. They've been very helpful with refunding the purchases of people who have changed their minds in the past.
Or use it to buy Borderlands 2.
If you already have Borderlands 2, get the season pass!
If you already have Borderlands 2, get the season pass!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Seriously. That game doesn't limit new players at all. You can turn on auto-aim and edit the configs to give yourself a lvl 50 character right when you load it up. Plus, it has an amazing story and a plethora of well designed personalities.
I know 12 year olds that obliterated people in NS1 simply because they had Coke induced ADHD and aimed like robots on crack. That made them pretty damn good. Do you think they should be consulted for balance suggestions? You do realise this is an FPS right? Mastery of the core game mechanic requires absolutely no knowledge of the game itself.
I don't think we need to exaggerate. NS 2 is going to be a game enjoyed by many. Most players in this thread and on these forums, who you see complain about some aspects of the game, do so with NS 1 in mind and because they feel the game could be offering so much more than what it already offers.
I mean, worst case scenario you can always go play NS2C or some of the other mods NS2 will have available on release day, I reckon those alone will be well worth the 20 bucks if you end up not appreciating vanilla.
ZING!
Caveat Emptor is applying less and less in our modern age. The focus of responsibility for education remains on the consumer, but the penalties for its shortcomings are becoming less severe as technology advances and goods become less tangible.
ITS FUNNY BECAUSE ITS AN AWFUL GAME
I disagree. I find it quite enjoyable, and in the absence of evidence relegate your opinion on the matter to nothing more than that.
noooo my opinion :(
2012-2012
Noticed it a lot in War of the Roses. One side would win, so everyone spam clicks to join that side and then they do continue to win.
Although this is different, I know. Since each side plays completely different. Just disheartening how it appears that it seems one-sided to many testers.
I'll wait for release, I guess.
Yep they sure do
<a href="http://www.ns2stats.org/all/index" target="_blank">http://www.ns2stats.org/all/index</a>
<a href="http://www.ns2stats.org/all/index" target="_blank">http://www.ns2stats.org/all/index</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Even though the sample size is pitifully small and it being ns2stats 'n all... 65.52% marines / 34.48% Aliens.
<img src="http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/3411/1285877835000.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Also, notice how all the top players have been stacking marines.
Only cuz taking a nap is more exciting than playing aliens. ;)
this will get immature responses no doubt, but hope a dev reads this and considers the current status of the game. -- thanks for reading my opinion.
this will get immature responses no doubt, but hope a dev reads this and considers the current status of the game. -- thanks for reading my opinion.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is no inherent flaw in the gameplay design, aliens were completely dominating 5-6 patches ago, marines have just gotten a bit too much love especially with the new movement, the knockback bug and the fact that players are still adjusting with the new bite cone and range.
With a few more tweaks on the alien side, it should even up eventually.
Granted there's some easy fixes, but I would say it's more than just fine-tuning, really.
Why do skulks need leap? Because they were nerfed and marines were buffed.
Giving skulks better skill based movement among other things should make them viable in mid and even game and should give aliens a chance in 1 hive situations while the aliens try to recover and re-expand.
Balance can be very volatile and a few small buffs can really turn the tide and lead to total alien domination like in the past.
Changes should be done with a scalpel, not a machete.
Looking forward to fixes : P
Looking forward to fixes : P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Watch out guys, we got a badass over here.
<img src="http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/200/420/BRTky.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Granted there's some easy fixes, but I would say it's more than just fine-tuning, really.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Repeating the same thing for the last 6 months. Aliens require a structure similar in nature to the Marine's arms lab where they can continue to upgrade and scale throughout the game without requiring tech points just like marines. Perhaps carapace and celerity as upgrades on the new structure, and filling in the spots with something new for the hive tech.
Blink needs to be swapped with shadow step and become baseline so fades don't suck on one hive.
Edit: Also focus.
I'm sorry, but the good players weren't just good at the technical aspects of NS. Rather, aim and movement above a certain threshhold are prerequisites and not a substitute for good positioning, timing, and understanding of the game. Better coordinated teams regularly beat teams with higher individual skill. This is pretty much the same argument people who didn't understand the game trotted out about Starcraft (All you do is spam units with 300 APM and win!) Even if it were true, all else equal, I'd take the opinion of somebody who has played enough to develop that aim over somebody who hasn't.
So why do so many people complain about aliens on the forums and in game, much more than they complain about marines?
Doesn't it mean aliens need to be changed in some ways, even if they are balanced?
Do UW have any plans to make alien gameplay as enjoyable as marine?
So why do so many people complain about aliens on the forums and in game, much more than they complain about marines?
Doesn't it mean aliens need to be changed in some ways, even if they are balanced?
Do UW have any plans to make alien gameplay as enjoyable as marine?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Luckily! it can be modded, so they haven't blown both feet off, will be interesting to see the future of the game and wether a mod will surpass the orignal game as its designed by Pub Players more than the few clanners around (much like DayZ pulled arma2 from the grave)
<img src="http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/3411/1285877835000.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Also, notice how all the top players have been stacking marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or stacking aliens. This messes up the balance stats quite a bit I guess. UW should ask if there's someone with a degree in statistics to make sense of it all ^^
<a href="http://www.ns2stats.org/round/round/11636" target="_blank">http://www.ns2stats.org/round/round/11636</a>