The problem with trying to change the way chambers work is that
A) That is a MASSIVE change. One of the largest jobs of UWE currently is to balance the game. to make that change would require massive rebalancing effort. B) currently I can put upgrades in the non-upgrade hive... meaning... carapace can go in my most defended hive and/or I can double up on spurs, etc across all my hives so that if I lose one the upgrades aren't lost.
I think the idea of allowing upgrades to carapace for example through some mechanic might work... maybe make it diminishing returns for each life form.... or a flat increase instead of the current scaled approach so that skulks would be more survivable but Onii wouldn't become invincible?
But if you take the other upgrades and make them weaker and require an upgrade they'll never be used. silence is so rarely used right now as it is... requiring 3 levels before it is viable is essentially equivalent to removing from the game.
Same thing with regen. if it was less or more than current it'd break the balance.
An easier thing would be for carapace to just scale based on the number of hives... so 3 hive carapace is just 3x as strong (for skulks) or maybe just 2x or whatever.
I can't think of any other alien path that would/should need tiers other than carapace. Maybe just allow one upgrade to carapace? I think that really the actual numbers required to make it feel a little more balanced are fairly small. We don't want a single average skulk to be able to easily take out 2 average marines... but getting nicked with a shotty = insta-death gets pretty old too.
<!--quoteo(post=1996128:date=Oct 24 2012, 08:50 AM:name=CodeCowboy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CodeCowboy @ Oct 24 2012, 08:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1996128"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem with trying to change the way chambers work is that
A) That is a MASSIVE change. One of the largest jobs of UWE currently is to balance the game. to make that change would require massive rebalancing effort. B) currently I can put upgrades in the non-upgrade hive... meaning... carapace can go in my most defended hive and/or I can double up on spurs, etc across all my hives so that if I lose one the upgrades aren't lost.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A) It really would be a massive change and we are definitely in a place where something like this would have to wait for post-release as there are more pressing issues. Though I really do think the massive undertaking would be worth it in the long run balance of the game.
B) That's true but due to the alien res system vs the marine RT mechanics those structures are more precious as the res is not as easily regained to redrop them. While you can take measures to prevent their sniping the fundamental problem still remains. The flip side to think about is how often do you see arms lab snipes? I'd really just like to bring them more in line with each other as chamber upgrades are how the alien team "scales" (used loosely) to match the marine upgrades. This is not to diminish T2-3 abilities however as those are just as important.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the idea of allowing upgrades to carapace for example through some mechanic might work... maybe make it diminishing returns for each life form.... or a flat increase instead of the current scaled approach so that skulks would be more survivable but Onii wouldn't become invincible?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You could scale them on a per lifeform basis allowing for more balance tweaking.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But if you take the other upgrades and make them weaker and require an upgrade they'll never be used. silence is so rarely used right now as it is... requiring 3 levels before it is viable is essentially equivalent to removing from the game.
Same thing with regen. if it was less or more than current it'd break the balance.
An easier thing would be for carapace to just scale based on the number of hives... so 3 hive carapace is just 3x as strong (for skulks) or maybe just 2x or whatever.
I can't think of any other alien path that would/should need tiers other than carapace. Maybe just allow one upgrade to carapace? I think that really the actual numbers required to make it feel a little more balanced are fairly small. We don't want a single average skulk to be able to easily take out 2 average marines... but getting nicked with a shotty = insta-death gets pretty old too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That really speaks more to the how strong carapace is in comparison to the other upgrades. Celerity is really the only other one that really can compare directly.
There are other ways to approach scaling upgrades rather than direct number increases. Take silence for example. First tier could be your movement is silent, next is your attacks are silent, final could be something pretty strong like being undetectable on the radar by an Obs. This has a nice base ability that is still worth getting, and interim tier that is good and an improvement but not ridiculous and a really strong 3rd tier that is worth going for. You don't necessarily have to use the same scaling models as NS1 (like silence with % of sound made per tier being reduced).
I am honestly really personally resistant to wanting anything more tied to hive number. It creates way more dependance on getting more hives. Now this dependance is a good thing but a lot of what we are seeing right now in the beta is that the aliens don't really have 1 hive viability. This is why you see a lot of fast 2nd hives and games being called when that hive is lost.
It's not just the phase-tech route creating this problem, though it is certainly largely to blame. The relative movement speed of a marine with sprint is huge and marines don't really have a hard time getting anywhere, with or without pgs.
Comments
A) That is a MASSIVE change. One of the largest jobs of UWE currently is to balance the game. to make that change would require massive rebalancing effort.
B) currently I can put upgrades in the non-upgrade hive... meaning... carapace can go in my most defended hive and/or I can double up on spurs, etc across all my hives so that if I lose one the upgrades aren't lost.
I think the idea of allowing upgrades to carapace for example through some mechanic might work... maybe make it diminishing returns for each life form.... or a flat increase instead of the current scaled approach so that skulks would be more survivable but Onii wouldn't become invincible?
But if you take the other upgrades and make them weaker and require an upgrade they'll never be used. silence is so rarely used right now as it is... requiring 3 levels before it is viable is essentially equivalent to removing from the game.
Same thing with regen. if it was less or more than current it'd break the balance.
An easier thing would be for carapace to just scale based on the number of hives... so 3 hive carapace is just 3x as strong (for skulks) or maybe just 2x or whatever.
I can't think of any other alien path that would/should need tiers other than carapace. Maybe just allow one upgrade to carapace? I think that really the actual numbers required to make it feel a little more balanced are fairly small. We don't want a single average skulk to be able to easily take out 2 average marines... but getting nicked with a shotty = insta-death gets pretty old too.
A) That is a MASSIVE change. One of the largest jobs of UWE currently is to balance the game. to make that change would require massive rebalancing effort.
B) currently I can put upgrades in the non-upgrade hive... meaning... carapace can go in my most defended hive and/or I can double up on spurs, etc across all my hives so that if I lose one the upgrades aren't lost.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A) It really would be a massive change and we are definitely in a place where something like this would have to wait for post-release as there are more pressing issues. Though I really do think the massive undertaking would be worth it in the long run balance of the game.
B) That's true but due to the alien res system vs the marine RT mechanics those structures are more precious as the res is not as easily regained to redrop them. While you can take measures to prevent their sniping the fundamental problem still remains. The flip side to think about is how often do you see arms lab snipes? I'd really just like to bring them more in line with each other as chamber upgrades are how the alien team "scales" (used loosely) to match the marine upgrades. This is not to diminish T2-3 abilities however as those are just as important.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the idea of allowing upgrades to carapace for example through some mechanic might work... maybe make it diminishing returns for each life form.... or a flat increase instead of the current scaled approach so that skulks would be more survivable but Onii wouldn't become invincible?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You could scale them on a per lifeform basis allowing for more balance tweaking.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But if you take the other upgrades and make them weaker and require an upgrade they'll never be used. silence is so rarely used right now as it is... requiring 3 levels before it is viable is essentially equivalent to removing from the game.
Same thing with regen. if it was less or more than current it'd break the balance.
An easier thing would be for carapace to just scale based on the number of hives... so 3 hive carapace is just 3x as strong (for skulks) or maybe just 2x or whatever.
I can't think of any other alien path that would/should need tiers other than carapace. Maybe just allow one upgrade to carapace? I think that really the actual numbers required to make it feel a little more balanced are fairly small. We don't want a single average skulk to be able to easily take out 2 average marines... but getting nicked with a shotty = insta-death gets pretty old too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That really speaks more to the how strong carapace is in comparison to the other upgrades. Celerity is really the only other one that really can compare directly.
There are other ways to approach scaling upgrades rather than direct number increases. Take silence for example. First tier could be your movement is silent, next is your attacks are silent, final could be something pretty strong like being undetectable on the radar by an Obs. This has a nice base ability that is still worth getting, and interim tier that is good and an improvement but not ridiculous and a really strong 3rd tier that is worth going for. You don't necessarily have to use the same scaling models as NS1 (like silence with % of sound made per tier being reduced).
I am honestly really personally resistant to wanting anything more tied to hive number. It creates way more dependance on getting more hives. Now this dependance is a good thing but a lot of what we are seeing right now in the beta is that the aliens don't really have 1 hive viability. This is why you see a lot of fast 2nd hives and games being called when that hive is lost.