A friend of mine spoke some positive stuff about the exos. I guess it's interesting to see how it all unfolds once people really start to figure out the ins and outs of the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1967865:date=Aug 28 2012, 09:21 PM:name=dushan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dushan @ Aug 28 2012, 09:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1967865"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NeoRussia, I'm sorry we didn't live up to your expectations.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited August 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1968002:date=Aug 29 2012, 06:27 AM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Aug 29 2012, 06:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1968002"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Additionally, not being able to weld each other leads to fun Gorge and Onos style teamplay, with the soft squishy regular marines welding the Exo's on their slow march to a hive. And not being able to build buildings also leads to a necessity to mix and match the marine team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I have no qualms with the rest of your post, but I can't agree with this. What this basically means, is that some people on the team will get to have fun (shoot stuff as exo aww yeah) while other people will be forced to do menial tasks (stare at an exo while pressing lmb). While it might make sense balance wise, I don't think it makes sense in the larger scheme of things.
<!--quoteo(post=1968055:date=Aug 29 2012, 07:44 AM:name=mushookees)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mushookees @ Aug 29 2012, 07:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1968055"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I can guarantee you that if things stay the way they are with exo's and jetpacks, then almost every competitive clan that is playing to win will go for jetpacks<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This isn't really a problem though. If that's how it has to be to balance the casual players' need for shiny awesome things versus the competitive players' need for min/max, I'm fine with that. Part of the problem with exos is that it doesn't scale well with skill; the difference between a bad player in an exo and a good player in an exo isn't as dramatic as the difference between a good marine and a bad marine -- which is essential for competitive play.
<!--quoteo(post=1968261:date=Aug 29 2012, 04:13 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Aug 29 2012, 04:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1968261"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have no qualms with the rest of your post, but I can't agree with this. What this basically means, is that some people on the team will get to have fun (shoot stuff as exo aww yeah) while other people will be forced to do menial tasks (stare at an exo while pressing lmb). While it might make sense balance wise, I don't think it makes sense in the larger scheme of things.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Seeing as the Exo's hands are interchangeable, it's not unreasonable that in the future it may be able to get a welder attachment. Just a thought. :)
<!--quoteo(post=1968032:date=Aug 29 2012, 02:13 AM:name=rantology)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rantology @ Aug 29 2012, 02:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1968032"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Dunno about you but to me these reasons are what makes them so great to play as/against and epic feeling, they are truly an investment both in terms of resources and in terms of your role on the team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The exos are fine to me in a competitive perspective. But for public casual play I just think it will be difficult to control. Its already hard as a commander to get your marines to listen to you. How are you going to control who gets an exo suit and who gets to be the medic. The players are going to have to dedicate themselves to the push and commander which doesn't always happen. Some players just want to casually shoot stuff for 30 minutes, ignoring everyone but what's in front of their crosshair. All I'm suggesting is either give them the ability to either use phase gates or be beaconed. Give the commander more control. In ns1 commanders dropped the heavy armors and jetpacks, choosing how many of each he would have on the field. I take back what I said about the building of structures and the the bullet spread.
<!--quoteo(post=1968295:date=Aug 29 2012, 12:22 PM:name=stinghawk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (stinghawk @ Aug 29 2012, 12:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1968295"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The exos are fine to me in a competitive perspective. But for public casual play I just think it will be difficult to control. Its already hard as a commander to get your marines to listen to you. How are you going to control who gets an exo suit and who gets to be the medic. The players are going to have to dedicate themselves to the push and commander which doesn't always happen. Some players just want to casually shoot stuff for 30 minutes, ignoring everyone but what's in front of their crosshair. All I'm suggesting is either give them the ability to either use phase gates or be beaconed. Give the commander more control. In ns1 commanders dropped the heavy armors and jetpacks, choosing how many of each he would have on the field. I take back what I said about the building of structures and the the bullet spread.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's a pretty lame reason to force a huge rebalance on exosuits. If people aren't listening, then you can't balance that out in any reasonable way.
Comp game = 1 exo in base always to defend against power node rush. Honestly the exo to me is not how I would like it to be implemented, it severly limits its actual utility in game (for some pretty ridiculous power with dual miniguns.) I understand what they are going for with it however i think it will be an absolute balance nightmare with dual miniguns and the severe limitations it has.
I always thought it would be cool if the marine commander dropped the exos and the marines had to build them as if they were a structure before they could get in them. I will have to play more to figure out if the current exo is balanced but i think the exo is insanely fun to play with. Zero teamwork and severe marine team stacking has lead to some poor quality games but this will get better when people have had their fun trying out the exos and start wanting to play aliens again.
<!--quoteo(post=1967886:date=Aug 28 2012, 09:41 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Aug 28 2012, 09:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1967886"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No one said anything about carapace - believe me i hated it as much as you. What i was talking about is very much movement based - walljumping. Let me put it to you this way.
There are several problems with what you are proposing.
1) Celerity should not be the best upgrade. MC first predominance was a problem with NS1, not an asset. 2) Vanilla skulk with no upgrades shoudl still be early game viable. Celerity should not be such a necessity. 3) Celerity is non-skill based. It is simply a flat increase in speed and does not solve our movement/aiming skill scaling problem. 4) We want build diversity including fast hives and other chamber paths being viable. 5) Celerity does not give you air. You're still floor skulking.
Properly functioning walljumping (without exploit speeds etc.), not celerity, is the solution.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<ol type='1'><li>Of course no upgrade should be the best, but when they range from "flat boost in survivability all the time" to "more movement flexibility", they can't all be skill-indexed the same way. As it stands, celerity <i>should </i>be the best, for the good of the game.</li><li>Yep, and that's why the base skulk speed still needs to be higher in this game. But it can't be, because marines still can't fight even the slow ones effectively. Woops!</li><li>Wrong. It opens up more options in how you move relative to all the other circumstances (enemies' positions, map/game state, psychology of players etc etc). It's probably the only truly skill-indexed upgrade right now, because the rest do something for you (cloak) or simply make it harder to screw up (adrenaline/carapace)</li><li>Then 2 of the 3 chambers need to be re-thought, just like they did in NS1. If SCs (shades) are about early game cloaking, there needs to be more to using them than "create shades/SCs and pray the marines don't react" (there isn't/wasn't). Same thing for DCs/crags: there needs to be more to it than "take longer to die than normal without doing anything" (and adding "you move slower so you take more hits anyway and the gain is lost" is certainly not the way to achieve this)</li><li>Just like in NS1, you can 'floor skulk' and, provided you have lots of speed and air control, you can do a wide variety of useful movements. I think 'air' should be left to leap tech, but that's another topic altogether.</li></ol>
What skillset is opened up when you upgrade carapace? Ramboing at stuff and winning because you bought an upgrade, even though you played like crap. What skillset is opened up when you upgrade celerity? Moving well enough to raise your overall effectiveness, and not needing more armor to succeed.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1968529:date=Aug 29 2012, 11:22 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Aug 29 2012, 11:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1968529"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Then 2 of the 3 chambers need to be re-thought, just like they did in NS1. If SCs (shades) are about early game cloaking, there needs to be more to using them than "create shades/SCs and pray the marines don't react" (there isn't/wasn't).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually, there was A LOT more to it in NS1. Unfortunately, the same isn't true for NS2. Shade is universally the worst upgrade path to pick, even with the low cost. The reasons why it's so poor are many and intertwined. Some obvious ones: (effectively) can't place shades around the map to create cloaking zones, camouflage upgrade doesn't work properly (too easy to spot), feign death is garbage, no focus, no scent of fear.
<!--quoteo(post=1968367:date=Aug 29 2012, 02:08 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Aug 29 2012, 02:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1968367"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's a pretty lame reason to force a huge rebalance on exosuits. If people aren't listening, then you can't balance that out in any reasonable way.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
its not a huge rebalance, the only thing i suggested was allowing them to use phase gates or be beaconed.
<!--quoteo(post=1968551:date=Aug 29 2012, 04:51 PM:name=stinghawk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (stinghawk @ Aug 29 2012, 04:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1968551"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->its not a huge rebalance, the only thing i suggested was allowing them to use phase gates or be beaconed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
that is a huge rebalance... the entire trade off on the exo revolves around the restrictions of their movement. :P
It is my opinion that, so long as the first hive upgrade is considered only in a one dimensional sense, there will always be a single obvious choice.
The considerations are one dimensional in that they consider only one thing: skulks. Carapace is better because it gives skulks more armour! Celerity is better because skulks can get around the map faster! Shade is bad because camouflage is useless for skulks!
The upgrades, and their associated structures, need to permeate more of the early game than just skulks. When you have multiple dimensions to consider, that is when true diversity occurs.
<!--quoteo(post=1968549:date=Aug 29 2012, 04:49 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Aug 29 2012, 04:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1968549"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->no focus, no scent of fear.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
2 of the dumbest changes from ns1 imo, no clue why they would take away useful upgrades. using sens was actually a viable first upgrade in ns1 if your team were comfortable enough to go sens first knowing they could drop a 2nd hive quickly
<!--quoteo(post=1968082:date=Aug 29 2012, 03:32 AM:name=elmo9000)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elmo9000 @ Aug 29 2012, 03:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1968082"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If it cant even use a phasegate, what do you use the exo for? Youre only going to use it for some all-in hivepush because you cant respond to attacks anywhere else on the map with it. Just having a big gun will never outweight the usage of phasegates and jetpacks. Its too restrictive. It was never used in ns1 because of that, and in ns2 its even more restrictive. I would love to see it as a realistic choice for marine lategame, but right now it just isnt.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i wouldnt say it wasnt used in ns1, heavy trains were pretty common. just load up on welders and send a heavy blob to a hive, hive dies.
<!--quoteo(post=1968529:date=Aug 30 2012, 08:22 AM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Aug 30 2012, 08:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1968529"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><ol type='1'><li>Of course no upgrade should be the best, but when they range from "flat boost in survivability all the time" to "more movement flexibility", they can't all be skill-indexed the same way. As it stands, celerity <i>should </i>be the best, for the good of the game.</li><li>Yep, and that's why the base skulk speed still needs to be higher in this game. But it can't be, because marines still can't fight even the slow ones effectively. Woops!</li><li>Wrong. It opens up more options in how you move relative to all the other circumstances (enemies' positions, map/game state, psychology of players etc etc). It's probably the only truly skill-indexed upgrade right now, because the rest do something for you (cloak) or simply make it harder to screw up (adrenaline/carapace)</li><li>Then 2 of the 3 chambers need to be re-thought, just like they did in NS1. If SCs (shades) are about early game cloaking, there needs to be more to using them than "create shades/SCs and pray the marines don't react" (there isn't/wasn't). Same thing for DCs/crags: there needs to be more to it than "take longer to die than normal without doing anything" (and adding "you move slower so you take more hits anyway and the gain is lost" is certainly not the way to achieve this)</li><li>Just like in NS1, you can 'floor skulk' and, provided you have lots of speed and air control, you can do a wide variety of useful movements. I think 'air' should be left to leap tech, but that's another topic altogether.</li></ol>
What skillset is opened up when you upgrade carapace? Ramboing at stuff and winning because you bought an upgrade, even though you played like crap. What skillset is opened up when you upgrade celerity? Moving well enough to raise your overall effectiveness, and not needing more armor to succeed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> -_-. There are so many holes in your arguements and you still dont get it. Instead of going over every single problem, i'll get straight to it.
Your entire thing is based around celerity being skill-based. You can argue how much it opens movement up, i don't debate that. However, whatever 'skill based movement' you do with it is always going to be separate from the actual celerity mechanic. Its easy to come to the conclusion it is not skill-based as opposed to something like bhop/walljump what have you.
<i>Do you need to be skilled or perform some skillful set of actions to receive a celerity speed boost?</i> no. <i>If we increase the celerity bonus by factors from +1 to 9001%, what happens to celerity as a 'skill-broadening' upgrade?</i>
The same can be said about air control. Balance numbers do not confer skill-based systems. Skill-based is in the 'hard to perform' and not just the outcome (healthy effort/reward). Timing walljumps, or bhop for that matter fit into this category. A flat speed boost does not. What is a flat speed boost but player controlled carapace anyway. In combat, both are essentially based on an effective hp through dodge or tanking respectively. Infact you missed the point entirely, or rather brushed off the most important point, point 2, in an entirely ignorant fashion.
You should also really stop comparing everything to carapace - silence is and always has been generally the smarter choice (in the context of ns2). Theres more to skulking than just 'being fast' and rushing everywhere (see what i did there). Oh, and floor skulking was ok in ns1. Why? Because the model size was much smaller + bhop, both of which are absent in ns2 design.
The exo's fine, with the exception of a turning cap (seeing exos spin around like a flipping helichopter is funny....but an issue). I would suggest that at best an exo should be able to complete 180 degrees in about 0.25-0.5 seconds and this needs to be hard capped (dont do a BF3 and reduce the mouse response....just means people with fancy mice can exploit higher sensitivity but most cant.
PG and Beacons not workings fine, exo's have to have trade offs...look at how useless the onos now is and he is 75...you can get exo's from 50 upwards. If exo's can be beaconed etc then their damage needs to take a serious nerf.
On the topic of damage, I think the exo's can take down a hive too quickly, compare the time it takes 1 dual Exo (75res) to take down a Hive (40) to an Onos (75) taking down a CC (15?). The exo takes it down a hell of a lot quicker and aliens have no way to currently appear back at a location (MC from ns1 or PG) yet aliens have to take longer to take down something less valuable and marines have ability to suddenly appear via beacons. I saw exos take down a hive in about 10 seconds (was 2 twins I think..couple of reg footies not sure of weapon level) which was very bloody scary to see. Whilst happy for exo's to be OP'd against chambers and even aliens I think there needs to be consideration into putting a cap on rate of damage to the hive. Sure some people with more time than me could calculate the numbers but from an ingame perspective it seemed laughably OP'd.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1968574:date=Aug 30 2012, 12:32 AM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Aug 30 2012, 12:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1968574"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh, and floor skulking was ok in ns1. Why? Because the model size was much smaller + bhop, both of which are absent in ns2 design.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Depends on what you mean by "floor skulking". Just straight up running at a marine has never been, and will never be, viable. Ambushing was somewhat more viable in NS because the model was smaller, meaning you could stay out of sight for longer and hide behind smaller objects than you can in NS2.
The walljumping in b216 actually made the skulk far better at rushing marines than it ever was in NS with bunnyhop, which is somewhat ironic considering the justification behind implementing walljumping instead of bunnyhopping.
I loved the skulk movement probably more than anybody else in this entire community, but after thinking long and hard and playing extensively I have found that it wasn't "skill based" at all.
It was just buggy and gave an unfair advantage to the skulk who already has enough mobility being able to walk on walls.
The skulk jumping was really fun, but in all honesty the wall jumping is even MORE skill based now since it isn't automatic win / easy mode. Give it some time and change your playstyle.
I use leap and celerity combo with skulk if I plan to do any sort of wall jumping. By the way it still works fine when you have celerity or leap.
It really is a shame UWE couldn't figure out a better way to leave the skulk wall jump in the game. It was incredibly fun, but it really does screw the marine vs skulk gameplay a lot.
I'm also tired of seeing people jump between 2 walls 400 times to get speed 20 so they can abuse the broken skulk movement to avoid getting hit. Skill-based? Nah just sounds like people aren't good at skulking so have to abuse the game to get a kill. (not directed at OP)
<!--quoteo(post=1968592:date=Aug 29 2012, 07:09 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Aug 29 2012, 07:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1968592"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm also tired of seeing people jump between 2 walls 400 times to get speed 20 so they can abuse the broken skulk movement to avoid getting hit. Skill-based? Nah just sounds like people aren't good at skulking so have to abuse the game to get a kill. (not directed at OP)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know anyone who would have to do it 400 times to reach speed 20. Plus people will use whatever advantage they can to be better. So if a person wants to be more effective and walljumping allows it, good on them.
<!--quoteo(post=1968593:date=Aug 29 2012, 07:13 PM:name=Syknik)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Syknik @ Aug 29 2012, 07:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1968593"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't know anyone who would have to do it 400 times to reach speed 20. Plus people will use whatever advantage they can to be better. So if a person wants to be more effective and walljumping allows it, good on them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was obviously exaggerating about 400 times... the point I was trying to make with the exaggeration is how dumb the "feature" is in terms of gameplay and depth. If the dev's really intended for skulks to be able to leap over crevice going 70 MPH then we all better start practicing... and get ready to play an incredibly stupid game where everyone is moving 70 MPH with skulks... this game will turn into a joke if this is what the dev's plan to leave doable in the game. That's why I disagree with people who abuse it. Contrary to popular belief it doesn't take any skill to do. Anyone who can strafe jump in quake or bunnyhop in CS can pick it up very easily. But why?
I don't really want to get into an ethics battle (Actually I do) because at the end of the day were all gamers over the internet... so ethics in gaming is pretty much a lost cause since like you said "People will do whatever they have to to win". Think long and hard about what you just said... cause it's the same motto that cheaters abide by.
The dev's haven't refined the alien movement in this game to where it needs to be yet. This is beta. They keep making it better each build, so yes go ahead and abuse whatever you can in the game to win right now, but all the people who are forward looking will see that these things will be fixed. The people looking ahead aren't gonna waste their time abusing something that is going to be fixed eventually. It's a waste of drill and kill.
I will focus on my aim, and my strategy over what I can abuse in a beta game to win. I'm sure half of us will agree with you and half would agree with me. It's a matter of opinion but in my eyes I see it as unfair and unethical to play like that.
I've done it before, just to test it out, and I think it's dumb that the dev's even allow skulks to move that fast. Luckily they keep nerfing the skulk movement to combat these exploits. Sorry, but that's what they are in my eyes. Are they wrong for doing it? Well it's a beta game and somebody has to abuse this crap so it gets fixed. So, I encourage the people to do it while they can because the more they do it the more it will get noticed and the faster it will be fixed. Using it in competitive games, and to gain and UNFAIR advantage over players for their own enjoyment? Not quite the same. These people should be internal playtesters if they really want to help the game. Using it in pubs and etc just makes people angry, and sure you might trick a couple noobs into thinking you're "omfg so leet".
As for my opinion on their skill level and ability to play well without it? I won't dabble there. Actually, I will. You ended what you said with people will do what they can to be "better". Is what they did to be "better" going to matter when it's gone? No... and it will have made them a worse player for wasting their time learning how to exploit better. A good player should always be focusing on what is going to be viable to practice. With the current trend of game development I have seen that this buggy skulk movement is constantly being worked on to decrease this type of gameplay. These people are great bug finders though... and we need those in the community for sure. We need people to abuse all the bugs cause otherwise they might go by unnoticed.
However, if the dev's step up and actually speak on this topic and reveal <i>they </i>WANT players to jump between walls to gain huge amounts of speed then they better start balancing the game around it... cause right now it isn't... which leads me to believe the developers intentions are the opposite of what the players are using for their advantage.
<!--quoteo(post=1967980:date=Aug 29 2012, 01:24 PM:name=stinghawk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (stinghawk @ Aug 29 2012, 01:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1967980"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In regards to the exo suits. I believe that they are flawed in several ways.
1. They can't go through phase gates. I don't get it but not a big deal 2. I fail to understand the bullet spread. When I aim I just try to have my target in the circle and hope I hit the damn skulks. 3. They can't build structures. Why?! 4. And this is the one that bothered me the most, they can't be beaconed back to a base.... As a commander I had established a second base in pipeline while aliens had two hives. Game was even. Exo suits were done with weapons and armor 2. All of a sudden onoses are raping my expansion. Half my team were in exo suits. I was sure we would hold until I found out half my team and all of my damage power didn't get teleported (players in exos).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry, I just had to respond. This post is ridiculous. Each point you've outlined as somehow being "bad" is not only entirely reasonable in terms of theory (large exosuits that are too large and heavy to be teleported or beaconed, etc) but also shouldn't be whinged about, they're all good and interesting/fun trade-offs for the fact that you're in a bipedal walking deathmobile. The only other alternative would be make the exo physically weaker, which isn't much fun comparatively. Having it the way it is now amps the risk/reward factor for some strategies.
NS1: People thinking bhop made skulks easy mode. NOPE... NS2: People thinking walljump made skulks easy mode.. NOPE
Skulk = smart game play + ambush + teamwork.
Wall jump is fine, it just needs a speed cap. 12-13 would be fine.
If they could make it so it does not store velocity, instead you maintain velocity then remove the speed cap. I'd love to see people reaching speed 20 when the velocity isn't stored like a bomb, be a nightmare to build up to.
Also they didn't remove wall jump, the phsyics changes broke it. Dushan has confirmed he will fix it.
Well said .ADHd, if a bit overzealous. I'm not sure who or when others in this community played NS1 competitively, but I distinctly recall that Bunnyhopping and anything resembling it was not allowed in competitive games.
I for one don't really care if people use this wall jumping trick in pub games, or even if its intended by the developers, but if its really that easy to gain max speed as a skulk, then no reasonable competitive system would allow players to do it in matches, regardless of intent, as it gives one team an unfair advantage.
I say, do what you will, but consider that just because the game mechanics <i>allow</i> for something doesn't mean that its <i>not</i> an exploit.
<!--quoteo(post=1968664:date=Aug 29 2012, 09:39 PM:name=mf-)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mf- @ Aug 29 2012, 09:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1968664"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS1: People thinking bhop made skulks easy mode. NOPE... NS2: People thinking walljump made skulks easy mode.. NOPE
Skulk = smart game play + ambush + teamwork.
Wall jump is fine, it just needs a speed cap. 12-13 would be fine.
If they could make it so it does not store velocity, instead you maintain velocity then remove the speed cap. I'd love to see people reaching speed 20 when the velocity isn't stored like a bomb, be a nightmare to build up to.
Also they didn't remove wall jump, the phsyics changes broke it. Dushan has confirmed he will fix it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Like I said before... once the devs say the skulk movement is final then all is fair game, but we have seen a consistent effort by the developers to stunt this type of "trick". Why do you think that is?
On final note I would like to say that I have no problem with being able to skillfully build speed over time, and I completely agree that being able to store your velocity after bumping face first into a pillar is a bug.
Right now getting speed 20 is too easy, and in my eyes should not be attainable by jumping between 2 walls (Or even 1). You could write a simple code that only offers a speed bonus to players that have left a certain radius from their last jump. For instance, if you do not move a certain amount of area away from your last jump (Calculating your jump before it into the equation) speed boost is negated.
This will make it so that players who are actually moving throughout the level and its geometry are rewarded for navigating the actual game world and not being an idiot jumping between 2 walls cause they know the end product of it.
What I'm trying to say in simple terms is that if you are gaining speed 20 by only moving in a 5 foot area something is horribly wrong, and not based on skill at all.
If you can reach speed 20 by jumping through the levels geometry and avoid hitting slopes, and objects then that is skillful and should be rewarded. Jumping between 2 walls? Cmon... I think it's pretty obvious to any real skilled gamer that this isn't a good gameplay mechanic.
Like I said I loved the skulk wall jump and I actually got very good at it. I practiced it a lot because I assumed this was going to be a big aspect of NS2, but they keep making it worse and worse and the only reason I can see for it is that it makes skulks extremely hard to hit (Just netcode and calculation wise) and it is too accessible to people when it should be very difficult to achieve.
When I see a skulk run up a wall jump between 2 walls and a map prop to evade my fire I say well played. When I come out into crevice to see a skulk jumping between 2 walls only to explode across crevice at 70 MPH and becoming litterally impossible to hit... I say... "lol get good at the real game".
Explains a lot about why you quit NS1 and your other views... Bunnyhopping was accepted in NS1 (atleast in the competitive community), and was arguably a huge part of the game throughout its life (and still is). Comparing the previous wallhop to bhop is a very bad comparison, as bunnyhopping did not make you harder to hit, or mess with your hitbox.. if you wanted to do that in NS1 you would just A-D skulk...
Personally I think the wallhop in this build is more balanced than previous ones, and it can still be effective when used correctly.
<!--quoteo(post=1968291:date=Aug 30 2012, 02:12 AM:name=Locklear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Locklear @ Aug 30 2012, 02:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1968291"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Or we can just use MACs on the Exosuits. AI repair with no one having to do any menial tasks.
I've already done it a few games as Comm.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1 to 1 mix of exos and MACs does a good impersonation of unstoppable death machine in pubs, if the exos cover each other.
Comments
Sincerity at its finest.
+1
I have no qualms with the rest of your post, but I can't agree with this. What this basically means, is that some people on the team will get to have fun (shoot stuff as exo aww yeah) while other people will be forced to do menial tasks (stare at an exo while pressing lmb). While it might make sense balance wise, I don't think it makes sense in the larger scheme of things.
<!--quoteo(post=1968055:date=Aug 29 2012, 07:44 AM:name=mushookees)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mushookees @ Aug 29 2012, 07:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1968055"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I can guarantee you that if things stay the way they are with exo's and jetpacks, then almost every competitive clan that is playing to win will go for jetpacks<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This isn't really a problem though. If that's how it has to be to balance the casual players' need for shiny awesome things versus the competitive players' need for min/max, I'm fine with that. Part of the problem with exos is that it doesn't scale well with skill; the difference between a bad player in an exo and a good player in an exo isn't as dramatic as the difference between a good marine and a bad marine -- which is essential for competitive play.
Seeing as the Exo's hands are interchangeable, it's not unreasonable that in the future it may be able to get a welder attachment. Just a thought. :)
I've already done it a few games as Comm.
The exos are fine to me in a competitive perspective. But for public casual play I just think it will be difficult to control. Its already hard as a commander to get your marines to listen to you. How are you going to control who gets an exo suit and who gets to be the medic. The players are going to have to dedicate themselves to the push and commander which doesn't always happen. Some players just want to casually shoot stuff for 30 minutes, ignoring everyone but what's in front of their crosshair. All I'm suggesting is either give them the ability to either use phase gates or be beaconed. Give the commander more control. In ns1 commanders dropped the heavy armors and jetpacks, choosing how many of each he would have on the field. I take back what I said about the building of structures and the the bullet spread.
That's a pretty lame reason to force a huge rebalance on exosuits. If people aren't listening, then you can't balance that out in any reasonable way.
Honestly the exo to me is not how I would like it to be implemented, it severly limits its actual utility in game (for some pretty ridiculous power with dual miniguns.)
I understand what they are going for with it however i think it will be an absolute balance nightmare with dual miniguns and the severe limitations it has.
There are several problems with what you are proposing.
1) Celerity should not be the best upgrade. MC first predominance was a problem with NS1, not an asset.
2) Vanilla skulk with no upgrades shoudl still be early game viable. Celerity should not be such a necessity.
3) Celerity is non-skill based. It is simply a flat increase in speed and does not solve our movement/aiming skill scaling problem.
4) We want build diversity including fast hives and other chamber paths being viable.
5) Celerity does not give you air. You're still floor skulking.
Properly functioning walljumping (without exploit speeds etc.), not celerity, is the solution.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<ol type='1'><li>Of course no upgrade should be the best, but when they range from "flat boost in survivability all the time" to "more movement flexibility", they can't all be skill-indexed the same way. As it stands, celerity <i>should </i>be the best, for the good of the game.</li><li>Yep, and that's why the base skulk speed still needs to be higher in this game. But it can't be, because marines still can't fight even the slow ones effectively. Woops!</li><li>Wrong. It opens up more options in how you move relative to all the other circumstances (enemies' positions, map/game state, psychology of players etc etc). It's probably the only truly skill-indexed upgrade right now, because the rest do something for you (cloak) or simply make it harder to screw up (adrenaline/carapace)</li><li>Then 2 of the 3 chambers need to be re-thought, just like they did in NS1. If SCs (shades) are about early game cloaking, there needs to be more to using them than "create shades/SCs and pray the marines don't react" (there isn't/wasn't). Same thing for DCs/crags: there needs to be more to it than "take longer to die than normal without doing anything" (and adding "you move slower so you take more hits anyway and the gain is lost" is certainly not the way to achieve this)</li><li>Just like in NS1, you can 'floor skulk' and, provided you have lots of speed and air control, you can do a wide variety of useful movements. I think 'air' should be left to leap tech, but that's another topic altogether.</li></ol>
What skillset is opened up when you upgrade carapace? Ramboing at stuff and winning because you bought an upgrade, even though you played like crap.
What skillset is opened up when you upgrade celerity? Moving well enough to raise your overall effectiveness, and not needing more armor to succeed.
Actually, there was A LOT more to it in NS1. Unfortunately, the same isn't true for NS2. Shade is universally the worst upgrade path to pick, even with the low cost. The reasons why it's so poor are many and intertwined. Some obvious ones: (effectively) can't place shades around the map to create cloaking zones, camouflage upgrade doesn't work properly (too easy to spot), feign death is garbage, no focus, no scent of fear.
its not a huge rebalance, the only thing i suggested was allowing them to use phase gates or be beaconed.
that is a huge rebalance... the entire trade off on the exo revolves around the restrictions of their movement. :P
The considerations are one dimensional in that they consider only one thing: skulks. Carapace is better because it gives skulks more armour! Celerity is better because skulks can get around the map faster! Shade is bad because camouflage is useless for skulks!
The upgrades, and their associated structures, need to permeate more of the early game than just skulks. When you have multiple dimensions to consider, that is when true diversity occurs.
2 of the dumbest changes from ns1 imo, no clue why they would take away useful upgrades. using sens was actually a viable first upgrade in ns1 if your team were comfortable enough to go sens first knowing they could drop a 2nd hive quickly
i wouldnt say it wasnt used in ns1, heavy trains were pretty common. just load up on welders and send a heavy blob to a hive, hive dies.
What skillset is opened up when you upgrade carapace? Ramboing at stuff and winning because you bought an upgrade, even though you played like crap.
What skillset is opened up when you upgrade celerity? Moving well enough to raise your overall effectiveness, and not needing more armor to succeed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
-_-. There are so many holes in your arguements and you still dont get it. Instead of going over every single problem, i'll get straight to it.
Your entire thing is based around celerity being skill-based. You can argue how much it opens movement up, i don't debate that. However, whatever 'skill based movement' you do with it is always going to be separate from the actual celerity mechanic. Its easy to come to the conclusion it is not skill-based as opposed to something like bhop/walljump what have you.
<i>Do you need to be skilled or perform some skillful set of actions to receive a celerity speed boost?</i> no.
<i>If we increase the celerity bonus by factors from +1 to 9001%, what happens to celerity as a 'skill-broadening' upgrade?</i>
The same can be said about air control. Balance numbers do not confer skill-based systems. Skill-based is in the 'hard to perform' and not just the outcome (healthy effort/reward). Timing walljumps, or bhop for that matter fit into this category. A flat speed boost does not. What is a flat speed boost but player controlled carapace anyway. In combat, both are essentially based on an effective hp through dodge or tanking respectively. Infact you missed the point entirely, or rather brushed off the most important point, point 2, in an entirely ignorant fashion.
You should also really stop comparing everything to carapace - silence is and always has been generally the smarter choice (in the context of ns2). Theres more to skulking than just 'being fast' and rushing everywhere (see what i did there). Oh, and floor skulking was ok in ns1. Why? Because the model size was much smaller + bhop, both of which are absent in ns2 design.
I would suggest that at best an exo should be able to complete 180 degrees in about 0.25-0.5 seconds and this needs to be hard capped (dont do a BF3 and reduce the mouse response....just means people with fancy mice can exploit higher sensitivity but most cant.
PG and Beacons not workings fine, exo's have to have trade offs...look at how useless the onos now is and he is 75...you can get exo's from 50 upwards.
If exo's can be beaconed etc then their damage needs to take a serious nerf.
On the topic of damage, I think the exo's can take down a hive too quickly, compare the time it takes 1 dual Exo (75res) to take down a Hive (40) to an Onos (75) taking down a CC (15?).
The exo takes it down a hell of a lot quicker and aliens have no way to currently appear back at a location (MC from ns1 or PG) yet aliens have to take longer to take down something less valuable and marines have ability to suddenly appear via beacons.
I saw exos take down a hive in about 10 seconds (was 2 twins I think..couple of reg footies not sure of weapon level) which was very bloody scary to see.
Whilst happy for exo's to be OP'd against chambers and even aliens I think there needs to be consideration into putting a cap on rate of damage to the hive.
Sure some people with more time than me could calculate the numbers but from an ingame perspective it seemed laughably OP'd.
Depends on what you mean by "floor skulking". Just straight up running at a marine has never been, and will never be, viable. Ambushing was somewhat more viable in NS because the model was smaller, meaning you could stay out of sight for longer and hide behind smaller objects than you can in NS2.
The walljumping in b216 actually made the skulk far better at rushing marines than it ever was in NS with bunnyhop, which is somewhat ironic considering the justification behind implementing walljumping instead of bunnyhopping.
It was just buggy and gave an unfair advantage to the skulk who already has enough mobility being able to walk on walls.
The skulk jumping was really fun, but in all honesty the wall jumping is even MORE skill based now since it isn't automatic win / easy mode. Give it some time and change your playstyle.
I use leap and celerity combo with skulk if I plan to do any sort of wall jumping. By the way it still works fine when you have celerity or leap.
It really is a shame UWE couldn't figure out a better way to leave the skulk wall jump in the game. It was incredibly fun, but it really does screw the marine vs skulk gameplay a lot.
I'm also tired of seeing people jump between 2 walls 400 times to get speed 20 so they can abuse the broken skulk movement to avoid getting hit. Skill-based? Nah just sounds like people aren't good at skulking so have to abuse the game to get a kill. (not directed at OP)
I don't know anyone who would have to do it 400 times to reach speed 20. Plus people will use whatever advantage they can to be better. So if a person wants to be more effective and walljumping allows it, good on them.
I was obviously exaggerating about 400 times... the point I was trying to make with the exaggeration is how dumb the "feature" is in terms of gameplay and depth. If the dev's really intended for skulks to be able to leap over crevice going 70 MPH then we all better start practicing... and get ready to play an incredibly stupid game where everyone is moving 70 MPH with skulks... this game will turn into a joke if this is what the dev's plan to leave doable in the game. That's why I disagree with people who abuse it. Contrary to popular belief it doesn't take any skill to do. Anyone who can strafe jump in quake or bunnyhop in CS can pick it up very easily. But why?
I don't really want to get into an ethics battle (Actually I do) because at the end of the day were all gamers over the internet... so ethics in gaming is pretty much a lost cause since like you said "People will do whatever they have to to win". Think long and hard about what you just said... cause it's the same motto that cheaters abide by.
The dev's haven't refined the alien movement in this game to where it needs to be yet. This is beta. They keep making it better each build, so yes go ahead and abuse whatever you can in the game to win right now, but all the people who are forward looking will see that these things will be fixed. The people looking ahead aren't gonna waste their time abusing something that is going to be fixed eventually. It's a waste of drill and kill.
I will focus on my aim, and my strategy over what I can abuse in a beta game to win. I'm sure half of us will agree with you and half would agree with me. It's a matter of opinion but in my eyes I see it as unfair and unethical to play like that.
I've done it before, just to test it out, and I think it's dumb that the dev's even allow skulks to move that fast. Luckily they keep nerfing the skulk movement to combat these exploits. Sorry, but that's what they are in my eyes. Are they wrong for doing it? Well it's a beta game and somebody has to abuse this crap so it gets fixed. So, I encourage the people to do it while they can because the more they do it the more it will get noticed and the faster it will be fixed. Using it in competitive games, and to gain and UNFAIR advantage over players for their own enjoyment? Not quite the same. These people should be internal playtesters if they really want to help the game. Using it in pubs and etc just makes people angry, and sure you might trick a couple noobs into thinking you're "omfg so leet".
As for my opinion on their skill level and ability to play well without it? I won't dabble there. Actually, I will. You ended what you said with people will do what they can to be "better". Is what they did to be "better" going to matter when it's gone? No... and it will have made them a worse player for wasting their time learning how to exploit better. A good player should always be focusing on what is going to be viable to practice. With the current trend of game development I have seen that this buggy skulk movement is constantly being worked on to decrease this type of gameplay. These people are great bug finders though... and we need those in the community for sure. We need people to abuse all the bugs cause otherwise they might go by unnoticed.
However, if the dev's step up and actually speak on this topic and reveal <i>they </i>WANT players to jump between walls to gain huge amounts of speed then they better start balancing the game around it... cause right now it isn't... which leads me to believe the developers intentions are the opposite of what the players are using for their advantage.
1. They can't go through phase gates. I don't get it but not a big deal
2. I fail to understand the bullet spread. When I aim I just try to have my target in the circle and hope I hit the damn skulks.
3. They can't build structures. Why?!
4. And this is the one that bothered me the most, they can't be beaconed back to a base.... As a commander I had established a second base in pipeline while aliens had two hives. Game was even. Exo suits were done with weapons and armor 2. All of a sudden onoses are raping my expansion. Half my team were in exo suits. I was sure we would hold until I found out half my team and all of my damage power didn't get teleported (players in exos).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry, I just had to respond. This post is ridiculous. Each point you've outlined as somehow being "bad" is not only entirely reasonable in terms of theory (large exosuits that are too large and heavy to be teleported or beaconed, etc) but also shouldn't be whinged about, they're all good and interesting/fun trade-offs for the fact that you're in a bipedal walking deathmobile. The only other alternative would be make the exo physically weaker, which isn't much fun comparatively. Having it the way it is now amps the risk/reward factor for some strategies.
NS2: People thinking walljump made skulks easy mode.. NOPE
Skulk = smart game play + ambush + teamwork.
Wall jump is fine, it just needs a speed cap. 12-13 would be fine.
If they could make it so it does not store velocity, instead you maintain velocity then remove the speed cap. I'd love to see people reaching speed 20 when the velocity isn't stored like a bomb, be a nightmare to build up to.
Also they didn't remove wall jump, the phsyics changes broke it. Dushan has confirmed he will fix it.
I for one don't really care if people use this wall jumping trick in pub games, or even if its intended by the developers, but if its really that easy to gain max speed as a skulk, then no reasonable competitive system would allow players to do it in matches, regardless of intent, as it gives one team an unfair advantage.
I say, do what you will, but consider that just because the game mechanics <i>allow</i> for something doesn't mean that its <i>not</i> an exploit.
NS2: People thinking walljump made skulks easy mode.. NOPE
Skulk = smart game play + ambush + teamwork.
Wall jump is fine, it just needs a speed cap. 12-13 would be fine.
If they could make it so it does not store velocity, instead you maintain velocity then remove the speed cap. I'd love to see people reaching speed 20 when the velocity isn't stored like a bomb, be a nightmare to build up to.
Also they didn't remove wall jump, the phsyics changes broke it. Dushan has confirmed he will fix it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Like I said before... once the devs say the skulk movement is final then all is fair game, but we have seen a consistent effort by the developers to stunt this type of "trick". Why do you think that is?
On final note I would like to say that I have no problem with being able to skillfully build speed over time, and I completely agree that being able to store your velocity after bumping face first into a pillar is a bug.
Right now getting speed 20 is too easy, and in my eyes should not be attainable by jumping between 2 walls (Or even 1). You could write a simple code that only offers a speed bonus to players that have left a certain radius from their last jump. For instance, if you do not move a certain amount of area away from your last jump (Calculating your jump before it into the equation) speed boost is negated.
This will make it so that players who are actually moving throughout the level and its geometry are rewarded for navigating the actual game world and not being an idiot jumping between 2 walls cause they know the end product of it.
What I'm trying to say in simple terms is that if you are gaining speed 20 by only moving in a 5 foot area something is horribly wrong, and not based on skill at all.
If you can reach speed 20 by jumping through the levels geometry and avoid hitting slopes, and objects then that is skillful and should be rewarded. Jumping between 2 walls? Cmon... I think it's pretty obvious to any real skilled gamer that this isn't a good gameplay mechanic.
Like I said I loved the skulk wall jump and I actually got very good at it. I practiced it a lot because I assumed this was going to be a big aspect of NS2, but they keep making it worse and worse and the only reason I can see for it is that it makes skulks extremely hard to hit (Just netcode and calculation wise) and it is too accessible to people when it should be very difficult to achieve.
When I see a skulk run up a wall jump between 2 walls and a map prop to evade my fire I say well played. When I come out into crevice to see a skulk jumping between 2 walls only to explode across crevice at 70 MPH and becoming litterally impossible to hit... I say... "lol get good at the real game".
Personally I think the wallhop in this build is more balanced than previous ones, and it can still be effective when used correctly.
I wonder what people like fana and elodea would feel like pubbing against enemies as blessed are they are in natural gaming skill.
I'm pretty sure it would soon devolve into 'it's not skill based, its an exploit' style debate.
I've already done it a few games as Comm.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1 to 1 mix of exos and MACs does a good impersonation of unstoppable death machine in pubs, if the exos cover each other.