The pistol secondary fire was considerably more ammo efficient than the primary, even if it did have lower dps. Pointless change is pointless.
<!--quoteo(post=1954412:date=Jul 27 2012, 02:31 PM:name=eh?)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (eh? @ Jul 27 2012, 02:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954412"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The only thing that made it a chore in ns1 was that welders weren't so available for everyone to use so you had to play welder shuffle minigames. That isn't an issue in ns2. Keep in mind you're basing all your criticism on the "chore" and "tediousness" of getting welded in public games after 20 or so patches where people didn't have to do it, and have just recently had an ENTIRE DAY to get used to doing it. Let me put this as nicely as possible, you can't possibly judge the efficacy of a major change like this after one day. Not even at competitive levels imo with constant games going. It's not a reflection of your ability to judge balance or anything, you just overlooked it. As most people seem to have done.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In ns1 welders were considerably easier to use due to bigger models, faster heal (at least it seemed faster) an actual sound that would play to alert the marine being welded (so they would stand still) and a bigger hitbox (not sure if this is the right term, the area on your screen in which the target has to be to get welded). The main reason I never touch welders in ns2 is because they are a pain to use not because there is not enough reason to use them. Chasing your teammates as they run into the hive room on half armour because they dont know your welding them is not my idea of a good time.
Pistol secondary fire was good, and I am kinda pissed its gone I saw it as the counter to the 2 bite+ parasite in early game.
However, the pistol actually ###### fires when I click now, so thats a plus.
Armories should never have healed armor, but I would be okay with advanced armories healing armor.'
The early game shouldn't be about running back into bases to heal up like morons. The comm is there to give you health and your teammates are there to give you armor. I am tired of this ###### "self sufficient" BS. This is a team game not camp the armory.
Reducing skulk bite is definitely a good thing. I am so tired of getting bitten from ###### 15 feet away when I am jetpacking. It's pretty stupid.
In quakelive you have to be kissing someone to melee them, and I have no problem there. Anything to raise the skillcap is going to be good for this game.
Short melee range is almost a necessity if you want to be able to fine-tune the netcode and registration, too. In TF2, where melee range is more like the old skulk bite, there's this legend of the "10 foot bonesaw", and you can see it happen about once a game. Silly stuff!
<!--quoteo(post=1954356:date=Jul 27 2012, 11:49 AM:name=eh?)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (eh? @ Jul 27 2012, 11:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954356"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Welders do the following for the game, especially the public games.
-Obviously improve the team play and reliance upon your team to a needed level.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> "Obviously" it increases team play to a tedious do-your-homework level. Marines are very dependent on their team without the armor change. <!--quoteo(post=1954356:date=Jul 27 2012, 11:49 AM:name=eh?)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (eh? @ Jul 27 2012, 11:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954356"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->-Paces the game for advancing marines which is an improvement for both marines and aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's not an improvement. It hurts marines even more in the midgame by making them even more vulnerable to fades and leap skulks when trying to hold any territory. Forward armories also pace marine advances because they have to stop to kill cysts, build the armory, and turn on/weld the power. Again, a completely irrelevant point because armor healing doesn't actually change this. <!--quoteo(post=1954356:date=Jul 27 2012, 11:49 AM:name=eh?)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (eh? @ Jul 27 2012, 11:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954356"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->-Removes the guaranteed cost efficiency of all forward armories.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Uhh? Forward armories aren't guaranteed to be cost efficient. Is this one of those "marines are invulnerable around armories!" arguments? Forward armories are still easily broken. If the team is going to drop 10 tres to try and hold an area, it should net them an advantage in that area. A single armory doesn't give any real advantage mid battle, just the ability to resupply quickly afterward. If you crush the handful of marines who built it, you get a free armory. <!--quoteo(post=1954356:date=Jul 27 2012, 11:49 AM:name=eh?)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (eh? @ Jul 27 2012, 11:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954356"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->-Doesn't permit the commander to just drop an armory and forget an area.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This doesn't happen even with forward armories. If it's a push, the commander is watching constantly for meds, nanos, and scans. Commanders give combat support. Armories don't. Completely irrelevant comparisons. <!--quoteo(post=1954356:date=Jul 27 2012, 11:49 AM:name=eh?)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (eh? @ Jul 27 2012, 11:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954356"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->-Encourages marines to play more aggressively using a mechanic that would of otherwise been severely underused if armories still gave armor.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ahh. Now we're cutting through the BS and getting to your actual opinion. You want this change because it forces marines to play in a way that you like. Fact is that it doesn't encourage anything. It forces marines to play the style you want them to. It was possible to play your style before.... Just buy a welder! Don't force your tedious ideas on every NS2 pubber. <!--quoteo(post=1954356:date=Jul 27 2012, 11:49 AM:name=eh?)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (eh? @ Jul 27 2012, 11:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954356"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->-Makes it 100% more reasonable to actually get to weld an RT back to full, which shouldn't be as uncommon or unreasonable to do.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Irrelevant because this was an possible before and has nothing to do with removing armor healing. <!--quoteo(post=1954356:date=Jul 27 2012, 11:49 AM:name=eh?)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (eh? @ Jul 27 2012, 11:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954356"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->-Less tedious than standing in front of an armory, more enjoyable to stay in field for players in a stressful situation than running back to base.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wading in the BS again. Before I had two options to heal my armor and now I have one. This entire point is flat out wrong because it was possible to weld each other in the field before. Because so few people did it should show you how terrible it is. Now you've tried to force people into playing a style you want them to by deleting their options. All because you liked it better that way in a game that you played a few years ago.
Ignoring the fact that you and every person who has used the word tedious have never once justified its use.....
So you enjoy marines sitting on armories playing siegemap games? Or you like that marines have the opprotunity to play them? You never made that clear.
I already addressed most of your points in posting to elodea so I'll refrain from reposting them.
<!--quoteo(post=1954516:date=Jul 27 2012, 10:28 PM:name=eh?)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (eh? @ Jul 27 2012, 10:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954516"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ignoring the fact that you and every person who has used the word tedious have never once justified its use.....
So you enjoy marines sitting on armories playing siegemap games? Or you like that marines have the opprotunity to play them? You never made that clear.
I already addressed most of your points in posting to elodea so I'll refrain from reposting them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You should try reading Elodea, Rantology, or my posts then. It's tedious because you have to constantly flag down friendlies who may or may not help you just to heal your own armor which the game is ultimately based on. If you have no armor, you die to everything with no real chance to defend yourself.
Do you think marines are invincible around armories? I'd hardly call 2 marines with a forward armor a "siege" worthy description. Armories provide no real in combat benefit, they just allow the marines to return to full strength if they win a battle. It is still incredibly easy to kill 2 marines around an armory with 2 leap skulks or 2 fades. And if you're getting armory pushed before leap skulks are out, it's a very all in rush.
You still haven't made a convincing case for this change. Everything you try to hold up as a benefit of this change was already completely available previously. The only two things that has actually changed is that you made it more tedious (ie frustrating and longer) for pub marines to heal up and that it's harder for marines to hold territory. Two bad changes. You've also further hurt marine midgame, a point in time where marines routinely lose map control to leap skulks and fades.
<!--quoteo(post=1954520:date=Jul 27 2012, 07:44 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Jul 27 2012, 07:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954520"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you have no armor, you die to everything with no real chance to defend yourself.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Really? Interesting.
I wonder if this will balance out when people have fewer hitreg/framerate issues. As an olde NS1 junkie I used to solo quite a few Aliens on 0 Armor. Shotguns were sweet.
<!--quoteo(post=1954520:date=Jul 27 2012, 09:44 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Jul 27 2012, 09:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954520"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You should try reading Elodea, Rantology, or my posts then. It's tedious because you have to constantly flag down friendlies who may or may not help you just to heal your own armor which the game is ultimately based on. If you have no armor, you die to everything with no real chance to defend yourself.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dude, you're basing your whole argument on the fact that a bunch of pub nubs haven't learned to weld teammates in a 1 day span?
That friendly who may or may not heal your armor prolly just bought this game or hasn't read the patch notes religiously like the rest of us...
Give it time. Honestly armories are destroying the gameplay of NS2. It's like COD where you get dealt a crapload of damage by 1 guy.. then run away and camp in a corner only to pop out and kill 3 people who should have finished you off with 1 bullet.
IS THAT BALANCED? All I hear is crying, and a plea to keep the game in a dumbed down COD leisurefest state where everyone plays their own rambo.
The fact is that most people suck at marines... terribly. And it's because of things like the armory that make people think "Oh hell yeah I am my own commander" Going around playing ###### rambo ###### and NEVER learning how to actually be good.
So the only tedious part is that you don't have a way to communicate it effectively. Already addressed this point, and it's obvious what must be done to correct it. Pretty petty and foolish reason to disregard a well tested and seasoned gameplay mechanic that we know works already. "Oh this feature doesn't have any UI to streamline its use yet? Remove it from the game"
I never claimed marines were invincible around armories. You seem to think thats my argument for some reason. I already stated it's a bad gameplay mechanic because it encourages marines to just hold outside of alien territory for no other reason than because they can so easily without much positioning, strategy, tactics, or thought. And the armory almost always pays for itself if it finishes building. Not just in time alive to recoup cost in tres, but also time spent delaying resnode biting.
The only way it would take longer to heal armor with a welder is because you're having trouble communicating it at the moment. Which is a valid concern, and can be easily addressed. That's still quite a petty reason to disregard this change though, and I would hope you had the foresight to understand that. The most important aspects of the change are that it makes it reasonable to wear down marine positions in an amount of time that is actually enjoyable or sensible while requiring strong teamplay to persist longer than you should. I don't see how this change hurts you midgame beyond the point we've already addressed that you're having a hard time getting welded in public games at the moment. So why don't you just ask for a better way to communicate its use instead of asking for it to go away.
<!--quoteo(post=1954527:date=Jul 27 2012, 10:55 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Jul 27 2012, 10:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954527"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Dude, you're basing your whole argument on the fact that a bunch of pub nubs haven't learned to weld teammates in a 1 day span?
That friendly who may or may not heal your armor prolly just bought this game or hasn't read the patch notes religiously like the rest of us...
Give it time. Honestly armories are destroying the gameplay of NS2. It's like COD where you get dealt a crapload of damage by 1 guy.. then run away and camp in a corner only to pop out and kill 3 people who should have finished you off with 1 bullet.
IS THAT BALANCED? All I hear is crying, and a plea to keep the game in a dumbed down COD leisurefest state where everyone plays their own rambo.
The fact is that most people suck at marines... terribly. And it's because of things like the armory that make people think "Oh hell yeah I am my own commander" Going around playing ###### rambo ###### and NEVER learning how to actually be good.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No. I played quite a few gathers on this change on ns2b.
You have to also realize once regen is fixed you wont be running in and out of rooms and regening your HP back in 5 seconds around a corner.... Marines that fight off the aliens would have time to weld/heal and keep moving... Honestly there is not a single problem with armories not healing armor, its been done in NS1 forever and never was a problem, and there you had focus fades/skulks 1 hitting you. If an alien takes the risks to close the distance and actually hits you, he should be doing damage that isnt going to be removed in 2 seconds by a building... And as a marine you should be moving to actually dodge those attacks, not just stand in place with no movement and try to aim... NS requires movement and aim and its that combination that made the skillcap so high, and that combination needs to return.
<!--quoteo(post=1954412:date=Jul 28 2012, 04:31 AM:name=eh?)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (eh? @ Jul 28 2012, 04:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954412"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Have to agree with you that one day is probably too early to be whining so much :X. My biggest issue is the huge disconnect in pub games where people just don't weld, hardly buy welders, and it generally turns into a huge mess. Because most players still havn't clued into welder play yet, i hate that my level of fun is so highly tied to others (lets be honest there are/will be alot of new players and semi-retards). Shall give this more time for players to clue into welding although i still think its a huge hit to accessibility for gain that is more-so in the 6v6 scene - a good thing but not necessarily related to pub play.
I don't want to tl;dr again so just some of the points that didn't involve me misunderstanding you (sorry). <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The cost efficiency is there maybe for large player count games, but that's just an issue with medpack and ammopack costs not being scaleable with player count. But there isn't any real reason to get an armory with 6v6 in a forward position at the moment if you could tech faster instead. Unless your team for whatever reason decides not to weld eachother<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Thats fine honestly and i think it does work for the better in 6 v 6. Larger scale pub gameplay however does require this scaling and something that isn't so heavily hinged on players who are unreliable in general. It needs to be healthy for both gametypes and all gamesizes (again, one day is too soon to judge this completely you're right).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't know if you thought this through... The only part of that I can even decipher as relevant to what I said was that you seem to think being able to buy the welder in a forward position is enough to allow the commander to ignore a forward position. Which just sounds stupid frankly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> What i meant was that if you assert that forward armouries healing armour allowed commanders to 'place and forget an area', you are also saying commanders can 'place and forget an area' in the current build. The same commander decision making process is still there only now you rely on players being smart enough to weld themselves (this operates separate to commander input/interaction hence 'forgetting the area') instead of having the function come from the armoury. If welders were comm-droppable only and you couldn't buy them from the armoury as a player then you would have a point i think.
*edit* I guess you can draw parallels to bad commander's not dropping medpacks. I'm all for allowing bad commanders to be bad, make mistakes, and go through that learning process so having an armoury heal hp as a backup from player unreliability is a good thing. The parallel is if you were to remove armoury healing health so that the only way to gain it is through 'improved teamplay' from relying on medpack drops. Yes medpack costs are a factor here, but lets just assume they are free or cost energy to compensate for such a change - the point is to illustrate why its not always good to have such a high reliance on other players.
<!--quoteo(post=1954529:date=Jul 27 2012, 10:58 PM:name=eh?)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (eh? @ Jul 27 2012, 10:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954529"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So the only tedious part is that you don't have a way to communicate it effectively. Already addressed this point, and it's obvious what must be done to correct it. Pretty petty and foolish reason to disregard a well tested and seasoned gameplay mechanic that we know works already. "Oh this feature doesn't have any UI to streamline its use yet? Remove it from the game"
I never claimed marines were invincible around armories. You seem to think thats my argument for some reason. I already stated it's a bad gameplay mechanic because it encourages marines to just hold outside of alien territory for no other reason than because they can so easily without much positioning, strategy, tactics, or thought. And the armory almost always pays for itself if it finishes building. Not just in time alive to recoup cost in tres, but also time spent delaying resnode biting.
The only way it would take longer to heal armor with a welder is because you're having trouble communicating it at the moment. Which is a valid concern, and can be easily addressed. That's still quite a petty reason to disregard this change though, and I would hope you had the foresight to understand that. The most important aspects of the change are that it makes it reasonable to wear down marine positions in an amount of time that is actually enjoyable or sensible while requiring strong teamplay to persist longer than you should. I don't see how this change hurts you midgame beyond the point we've already addressed that you're having a hard time getting welded in public games at the moment. So why don't you just ask for a better way to communicate its use instead of asking for it to go away.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Err. It was tested in NS2 and it failed in the gathers. It was bad and lead to bad gameplay where marines got outright raped by any decent fade's hit and run. Marines couldn't hold any area. In the current build of NS2, you see this even more than you saw it in b214.
It's nice to see you dismiss anything that isn't outright charging aggression as "without much positioning, strategy, tactics, or thought." That's just more BS. Holding territory in NS2 is one of the most strategic things you can do. Taking second hive locations and forcing aliens into a bad hive is, by definition, strategy. Nobody holds territory that is meaningless with armories and if they are then the entire point is moot because they'll lose anyway. Implying that this change somehow adds "positioning(?), strategy, tactics, or thought" is just dishonest.
It's not just communicating that you need a weld, it's actually meeting up with players. Stopping to weld. Running over to xxx room from base just to get healed up to full hp again. -- "Do you have a welder? Oh you don't? Ok, Does anyone have a welder? Ok I need a weld in base. Oh, you're at generator? Let me phase there. Ok weld me I'm by the armory!" It's tedious.
Your "most important aspect" is a nonissue. In b214, you could already kill marines very easily even around armories by just coordinating your attacks. In this regard, all this fix has done has taken the burden of teamwork off of aliens and placed it onto marines, where marines already took far more teamwork to play effectively. It should go away because it's tedious, bad for gameplay, and bad for balancing.
<!--quoteo(post=1954532:date=Jul 27 2012, 11:10 PM:name=eh?)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (eh? @ Jul 27 2012, 11:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954532"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's hard to take your "I played a couple gathers on it" serious.
You played 2, and you left 1 in a hissy-fit.
Granted I'm probably a pretty good hissy-fit, gather, leaver candidate anyways.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Outright lying is beneath you. I've played 10 or 20 gathers on ns2b over half a dozen different incarnations of the mod.
Gotta rep them NS1 throwback changes, though. Amirite?
Of 10 or 20 gathers played, many didnt have that change... There was only 1 build of NS2b that had it, and honestly you stopped playing it because of that singular change.
<!--quoteo(post=1954539:date=Jul 27 2012, 11:25 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Jul 27 2012, 11:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954539"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Of 10 or 20 gathers played, many didnt have that change... There was only 1 build of NS2b that had it, and honestly you stopped playing it because of that singular change.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wasn't complaining to eh about it for a week while playing gathers or anything.
Err I was saying you couldn't / shouldn't place and forget an armory in the current build actually. Unless maybe its for GL spam. Marines are better off mining up their PG and forcing aliens to engage before they can setup and ambush. Getting forward armories and all that stuff just gives aliens more time to setup an ambush in the current build (215).
But maybe it's just the time of day I've been playing public games as of late. I really don't have that much trouble getting welded at the moment. The obviousness of other players needing welding could be made more obvious as well for new players. Not just a means of communicating that yourself to other players.
It's funny because the standing around to weld thing is a really bad ns1 habit a lot of people developed. I don't know how to communicate in game that you should be moving and welding, not standing around. That's a much bigger issue though....
Sorry is this a US-pub-server issue? I have no problem to encourage people to use welders on EU-pubs. You can actually talk to them via the mic. And most of them really hear to advices if you don't talk like a ###### to them. Everyone is crying the the pub-noobs can't get used to this change in 3 days. The opposite is reality.
Comments
Is Fana still alive? His responses were worth reading.
<!--quoteo(post=1954412:date=Jul 27 2012, 02:31 PM:name=eh?)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (eh? @ Jul 27 2012, 02:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954412"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The only thing that made it a chore in ns1 was that welders weren't so available for everyone to use so you had to play welder shuffle minigames. That isn't an issue in ns2. Keep in mind you're basing all your criticism on the "chore" and "tediousness" of getting welded in public games after 20 or so patches where people didn't have to do it, and have just recently had an ENTIRE DAY to get used to doing it. Let me put this as nicely as possible, you can't possibly judge the efficacy of a major change like this after one day. Not even at competitive levels imo with constant games going. It's not a reflection of your ability to judge balance or anything, you just overlooked it. As most people seem to have done.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In ns1 welders were considerably easier to use due to bigger models, faster heal (at least it seemed faster) an actual sound that would play to alert the marine being welded (so they would stand still) and a bigger hitbox (not sure if this is the right term, the area on your screen in which the target has to be to get welded). The main reason I never touch welders in ns2 is because they are a pain to use not because there is not enough reason to use them. Chasing your teammates as they run into the hive room on half armour because they dont know your welding them is not my idea of a good time.
However, the pistol actually ###### fires when I click now, so thats a plus.
Armories should never have healed armor, but I would be okay with advanced armories healing armor.'
The early game shouldn't be about running back into bases to heal up like morons. The comm is there to give you health and your teammates are there to give you armor. I am tired of this ###### "self sufficient" BS. This is a team game not camp the armory.
Reducing skulk bite is definitely a good thing. I am so tired of getting bitten from ###### 15 feet away when I am jetpacking. It's pretty stupid.
In quakelive you have to be kissing someone to melee them, and I have no problem there. Anything to raise the skillcap is going to be good for this game.
In TF2, where melee range is more like the old skulk bite, there's this legend of the "10 foot bonesaw", and you can see it happen about once a game. Silly stuff!
-Obviously improve the team play and reliance upon your team to a needed level.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"Obviously" it increases team play to a tedious do-your-homework level. Marines are very dependent on their team without the armor change.
<!--quoteo(post=1954356:date=Jul 27 2012, 11:49 AM:name=eh?)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (eh? @ Jul 27 2012, 11:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954356"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->-Paces the game for advancing marines which is an improvement for both marines and aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not an improvement. It hurts marines even more in the midgame by making them even more vulnerable to fades and leap skulks when trying to hold any territory. Forward armories also pace marine advances because they have to stop to kill cysts, build the armory, and turn on/weld the power. Again, a completely irrelevant point because armor healing doesn't actually change this.
<!--quoteo(post=1954356:date=Jul 27 2012, 11:49 AM:name=eh?)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (eh? @ Jul 27 2012, 11:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954356"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->-Removes the guaranteed cost efficiency of all forward armories.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Uhh? Forward armories aren't guaranteed to be cost efficient. Is this one of those "marines are invulnerable around armories!" arguments? Forward armories are still easily broken. If the team is going to drop 10 tres to try and hold an area, it should net them an advantage in that area. A single armory doesn't give any real advantage mid battle, just the ability to resupply quickly afterward. If you crush the handful of marines who built it, you get a free armory.
<!--quoteo(post=1954356:date=Jul 27 2012, 11:49 AM:name=eh?)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (eh? @ Jul 27 2012, 11:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954356"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->-Doesn't permit the commander to just drop an armory and forget an area.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This doesn't happen even with forward armories. If it's a push, the commander is watching constantly for meds, nanos, and scans. Commanders give combat support. Armories don't. Completely irrelevant comparisons.
<!--quoteo(post=1954356:date=Jul 27 2012, 11:49 AM:name=eh?)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (eh? @ Jul 27 2012, 11:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954356"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->-Encourages marines to play more aggressively using a mechanic that would of otherwise been severely underused if armories still gave armor.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ahh. Now we're cutting through the BS and getting to your actual opinion. You want this change because it forces marines to play in a way that you like. Fact is that it doesn't encourage anything. It forces marines to play the style you want them to. It was possible to play your style before.... Just buy a welder! Don't force your tedious ideas on every NS2 pubber.
<!--quoteo(post=1954356:date=Jul 27 2012, 11:49 AM:name=eh?)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (eh? @ Jul 27 2012, 11:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954356"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->-Makes it 100% more reasonable to actually get to weld an RT back to full, which shouldn't be as uncommon or unreasonable to do.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Irrelevant because this was an possible before and has nothing to do with removing armor healing.
<!--quoteo(post=1954356:date=Jul 27 2012, 11:49 AM:name=eh?)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (eh? @ Jul 27 2012, 11:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954356"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->-Less tedious than standing in front of an armory, more enjoyable to stay in field for players in a stressful situation than running back to base.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wading in the BS again. Before I had two options to heal my armor and now I have one. This entire point is flat out wrong because it was possible to weld each other in the field before. Because so few people did it should show you how terrible it is. Now you've tried to force people into playing a style you want them to by deleting their options. All because you liked it better that way in a game that you played a few years ago.
So you enjoy marines sitting on armories playing siegemap games? Or you like that marines have the opprotunity to play them? You never made that clear.
I already addressed most of your points in posting to elodea so I'll refrain from reposting them.
So you enjoy marines sitting on armories playing siegemap games? Or you like that marines have the opprotunity to play them? You never made that clear.
I already addressed most of your points in posting to elodea so I'll refrain from reposting them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You should try reading Elodea, Rantology, or my posts then. It's tedious because you have to constantly flag down friendlies who may or may not help you just to heal your own armor which the game is ultimately based on. If you have no armor, you die to everything with no real chance to defend yourself.
Do you think marines are invincible around armories? I'd hardly call 2 marines with a forward armor a "siege" worthy description. Armories provide no real in combat benefit, they just allow the marines to return to full strength if they win a battle. It is still incredibly easy to kill 2 marines around an armory with 2 leap skulks or 2 fades. And if you're getting armory pushed before leap skulks are out, it's a very all in rush.
You still haven't made a convincing case for this change. Everything you try to hold up as a benefit of this change was already completely available previously. The only two things that has actually changed is that you made it more tedious (ie frustrating and longer) for pub marines to heal up and that it's harder for marines to hold territory. Two bad changes. You've also further hurt marine midgame, a point in time where marines routinely lose map control to leap skulks and fades.
Really? Interesting.
I wonder if this will balance out when people have fewer hitreg/framerate issues. As an olde NS1 junkie I used to solo quite a few Aliens on 0 Armor. Shotguns were sweet.
& aliens can gain their armor with regen & crags, but marines can't.
I love that I can kill so much skulks now though.
Dude, you're basing your whole argument on the fact that a bunch of pub nubs haven't learned to weld teammates in a 1 day span?
That friendly who may or may not heal your armor prolly just bought this game or hasn't read the patch notes religiously like the rest of us...
Give it time. Honestly armories are destroying the gameplay of NS2. It's like COD where you get dealt a crapload of damage by 1 guy.. then run away and camp in a corner only to pop out and kill 3 people who should have finished you off with 1 bullet.
IS THAT BALANCED? All I hear is crying, and a plea to keep the game in a dumbed down COD leisurefest state where everyone plays their own rambo.
The fact is that most people suck at marines... terribly. And it's because of things like the armory that make people think "Oh hell yeah I am my own commander" Going around playing ###### rambo ###### and NEVER learning how to actually be good.
"Oh this feature doesn't have any UI to streamline its use yet? Remove it from the game"
I never claimed marines were invincible around armories. You seem to think thats my argument for some reason. I already stated it's a bad gameplay mechanic because it encourages marines to just hold outside of alien territory for no other reason than because they can so easily without much positioning, strategy, tactics, or thought. And the armory almost always pays for itself if it finishes building. Not just in time alive to recoup cost in tres, but also time spent delaying resnode biting.
The only way it would take longer to heal armor with a welder is because you're having trouble communicating it at the moment. Which is a valid concern, and can be easily addressed. That's still quite a petty reason to disregard this change though, and I would hope you had the foresight to understand that. The most important aspects of the change are that it makes it reasonable to wear down marine positions in an amount of time that is actually enjoyable or sensible while requiring strong teamplay to persist longer than you should. I don't see how this change hurts you midgame beyond the point we've already addressed that you're having a hard time getting welded in public games at the moment. So why don't you just ask for a better way to communicate its use instead of asking for it to go away.
That friendly who may or may not heal your armor prolly just bought this game or hasn't read the patch notes religiously like the rest of us...
Give it time. Honestly armories are destroying the gameplay of NS2. It's like COD where you get dealt a crapload of damage by 1 guy.. then run away and camp in a corner only to pop out and kill 3 people who should have finished you off with 1 bullet.
IS THAT BALANCED? All I hear is crying, and a plea to keep the game in a dumbed down COD leisurefest state where everyone plays their own rambo.
The fact is that most people suck at marines... terribly. And it's because of things like the armory that make people think "Oh hell yeah I am my own commander" Going around playing ###### rambo ###### and NEVER learning how to actually be good.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No. I played quite a few gathers on this change on ns2b.
Everything after you mentioned COD is nonsense.
You played 2, and you left 1 in a hissy-fit.
Granted I'm probably a pretty good hissy-fit, gather, leaver candidate anyways.
Have to agree with you that one day is probably too early to be whining so much :X. My biggest issue is the huge disconnect in pub games where people just don't weld, hardly buy welders, and it generally turns into a huge mess. Because most players still havn't clued into welder play yet, i hate that my level of fun is so highly tied to others (lets be honest there are/will be alot of new players and semi-retards). Shall give this more time for players to clue into welding although i still think its a huge hit to accessibility for gain that is more-so in the 6v6 scene - a good thing but not necessarily related to pub play.
I don't want to tl;dr again so just some of the points that didn't involve me misunderstanding you (sorry).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The cost efficiency is there maybe for large player count games, but that's just an issue with medpack and ammopack costs not being scaleable with player count. But there isn't any real reason to get an armory with 6v6 in a forward position at the moment if you could tech faster instead. Unless your team for whatever reason decides not to weld eachother<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats fine honestly and i think it does work for the better in 6 v 6. Larger scale pub gameplay however does require this scaling and something that isn't so heavily hinged on players who are unreliable in general. It needs to be healthy for both gametypes and all gamesizes (again, one day is too soon to judge this completely you're right).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't know if you thought this through... The only part of that I can even decipher as relevant to what I said was that you seem to think being able to buy the welder in a forward position is enough to allow the commander to ignore a forward position. Which just sounds stupid frankly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What i meant was that if you assert that forward armouries healing armour allowed commanders to 'place and forget an area', you are also saying commanders can 'place and forget an area' in the current build. The same commander decision making process is still there only now you rely on players being smart enough to weld themselves (this operates separate to commander input/interaction hence 'forgetting the area') instead of having the function come from the armoury. If welders were comm-droppable only and you couldn't buy them from the armoury as a player then you would have a point i think.
*edit*
I guess you can draw parallels to bad commander's not dropping medpacks. I'm all for allowing bad commanders to be bad, make mistakes, and go through that learning process so having an armoury heal hp as a backup from player unreliability is a good thing. The parallel is if you were to remove armoury healing health so that the only way to gain it is through 'improved teamplay' from relying on medpack drops. Yes medpack costs are a factor here, but lets just assume they are free or cost energy to compensate for such a change - the point is to illustrate why its not always good to have such a high reliance on other players.
"Oh this feature doesn't have any UI to streamline its use yet? Remove it from the game"
I never claimed marines were invincible around armories. You seem to think thats my argument for some reason. I already stated it's a bad gameplay mechanic because it encourages marines to just hold outside of alien territory for no other reason than because they can so easily without much positioning, strategy, tactics, or thought. And the armory almost always pays for itself if it finishes building. Not just in time alive to recoup cost in tres, but also time spent delaying resnode biting.
The only way it would take longer to heal armor with a welder is because you're having trouble communicating it at the moment. Which is a valid concern, and can be easily addressed. That's still quite a petty reason to disregard this change though, and I would hope you had the foresight to understand that. The most important aspects of the change are that it makes it reasonable to wear down marine positions in an amount of time that is actually enjoyable or sensible while requiring strong teamplay to persist longer than you should. I don't see how this change hurts you midgame beyond the point we've already addressed that you're having a hard time getting welded in public games at the moment. So why don't you just ask for a better way to communicate its use instead of asking for it to go away.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Err. It was tested in NS2 and it failed in the gathers. It was bad and lead to bad gameplay where marines got outright raped by any decent fade's hit and run. Marines couldn't hold any area. In the current build of NS2, you see this even more than you saw it in b214.
It's nice to see you dismiss anything that isn't outright charging aggression as "without much positioning, strategy, tactics, or thought." That's just more BS. Holding territory in NS2 is one of the most strategic things you can do. Taking second hive locations and forcing aliens into a bad hive is, by definition, strategy. Nobody holds territory that is meaningless with armories and if they are then the entire point is moot because they'll lose anyway. Implying that this change somehow adds "positioning(?), strategy, tactics, or thought" is just dishonest.
It's not just communicating that you need a weld, it's actually meeting up with players. Stopping to weld. Running over to xxx room from base just to get healed up to full hp again.
-- "Do you have a welder? Oh you don't? Ok, Does anyone have a welder? Ok I need a weld in base. Oh, you're at generator? Let me phase there. Ok weld me I'm by the armory!"
It's tedious.
Your "most important aspect" is a nonissue. In b214, you could already kill marines very easily even around armories by just coordinating your attacks. In this regard, all this fix has done has taken the burden of teamwork off of aliens and placed it onto marines, where marines already took far more teamwork to play effectively. It should go away because it's tedious, bad for gameplay, and bad for balancing.
<!--quoteo(post=1954532:date=Jul 27 2012, 11:10 PM:name=eh?)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (eh? @ Jul 27 2012, 11:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954532"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's hard to take your "I played a couple gathers on it" serious.
You played 2, and you left 1 in a hissy-fit.
Granted I'm probably a pretty good hissy-fit, gather, leaver candidate anyways.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Outright lying is beneath you. I've played 10 or 20 gathers on ns2b over half a dozen different incarnations of the mod.
Gotta rep them NS1 throwback changes, though. Amirite?
I wasn't complaining to eh about it for a week while playing gathers or anything.
But maybe it's just the time of day I've been playing public games as of late. I really don't have that much trouble getting welded at the moment. The obviousness of other players needing welding could be made more obvious as well for new players. Not just a means of communicating that yourself to other players.
It's funny because the standing around to weld thing is a really bad ns1 habit a lot of people developed. I don't know how to communicate in game that you should be moving and welding, not standing around. That's a much bigger issue though....