Ok, now that I've had a chance to play a few more games (I wanted to double check whether it was me having a bad day), I have some further thoughts.
I like the <i>idea</i> of the welders-only armor healing, but the implementation is flawed in that most people don't pack welders (yet) and there's no dynamic that ensures it gets done. I think I'll just echo the sentiments in another thread on B215, in that I think the best solution is to just make the armory heal armor, albeit very slowly. Akin to the idea that if you have a machine do something, it does it slower than a human - like how a MAC can build something, but it's much faster to have a marine do it.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2.7 is a typo. It was 1.6 before, lowered to 1.5. So the change is not quite that big.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'll quote from the lua file tomorrow, where it is commented, and the programmer specifically comments that to "get it back" to its previous value you would have to add 1.2. So I would ask for more detail about it being a typo. I certainly feel like playing as a skulk there is a huge difference in being able to connect with marines. Now that I've had some more opportunity to practice I have had to revisit my playing style completely to land hits as a skulk - and it is a lot more challenging. I wouldn't mind so much if we could choose our level of challenge - say have different servers with different difficulty levels enabled - but raising the bar across the board will make a lot of new players sigh with frustration.
The alien nerfs, especially the lerk armor, are a step in the right direction, as lerks are getting shot down with a bit more regularity - but it still seems to take a random point-blank shotgun to do it. I haven't seen any impact on fades. As soon as 1-2 skilled fade players start harassing a base it's generally game over as they can take care of any marine resistance, and then let the skulks and spikelorks take out the base.
What I find is missing, interestingly, is the endgame. By the time aliens get the third hive they pretty much own the map, so you don't see so much stomp / umbra / vortex / xeno as you might. In fact in the dozen or so games I've played Onos were fairly rare, and I think I saw arcs in two games. I think tying the alien abilities to the number of hives is the right approach, I just think it will be a rare and epic game where you see the last tier abilities being brought out in order to decide a game.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited July 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1953999:date=Jul 26 2012, 11:14 AM:name=DJPenguin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DJPenguin @ Jul 26 2012, 11:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953999"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i think there's a little bit of skulk leg that hasn't been tenderized yet. hurry beat it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Excuse me while i don't feel sorry for the 214 skulk bite range... :
<!--quoteo(post=1954096:date=Jul 26 2012, 03:30 PM:name=matso)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (matso @ Jul 26 2012, 03:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954096"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2.7 is a typo. It was 1.6 before, lowered to 1.5. So the change is not quite that big.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And even tho i <b>despise</b> the lack of air control its a)more similar to ns1 now b) players cannot exploit it as they have been doing..
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited July 2012
Shhh.. everyone will want them! :-P
More information is always better, imo. If only i could forgo my own opinion at the same time, tho.. lol
edit: (But to answer your question its "trace all" and "thirdperson 1" then take a bite. i dont recommend doing this other than in a lan game.) 2nd edit: looks like matso beat me to it already! look up! (trace m is for melee, obviously, but all will still work)
<!--quoteo(post=1953997:date=Jul 26 2012, 09:03 PM:name=eh?)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (eh? @ Jul 26 2012, 09:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953997"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I find it weird no one has noticed how much more responsive the pistol's normal fire mode is now compared to previous patches. It feels substantially better in every way.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Didnt notice any difference with it, but maybe youre right. Didnt see any difference in overall hitreg either, skulks still take 2-3+ sg hits to kill and +half a magazine from the lmg. Performance has been going down for me in the last couple of builds. Fps dropping into the low 30s while it feels like sub 15 because it becomes a huge slideshow a lot of time. What kind of machines do the people have whos fps has been improving? Sure the fps is 80-100 when waiting to spawn, but when youre actually playing it just sinks so very low.
Skulk aircontrol is like alpha version marine, you can strafe in air. Feels really bad now. It felt pretty good in some of the earlier builds with walljump in it. Didnt play alien round long enough before disconnecting to try fade double jump, but it does sounds like it can actually be fun. Well, atleast if shadowstep now works.
Yep, not really impressed by the changes in this build. Also, the build feels even more buggy than 214... I keep getting stuck on respawn as an alien, getting more random crashes etc.
<!--quoteo(post=1954026:date=Jul 26 2012, 09:28 PM:name=Daphisto)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Daphisto @ Jul 26 2012, 09:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954026"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This quote would be beautiful if I hadn't already been exposed to seeing pub marine players try to chase each other with welders, rather than shoot at alien players that were attacking them. So nonfunctional. And very face-palm worthy! :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sorry, but this is the fault of the players. You should have a mic. Use it! Also they have already stated that they will make it more obvious for other players that someone tries to weld them. <!--quoteo(post=1954026:date=Jul 26 2012, 09:28 PM:name=Daphisto)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Daphisto @ Jul 26 2012, 09:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954026"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Logically, the armory change could make perfect sense: Get people to work together, stay focused on keeping your teammates alive and work together as a team. But in practice, it doesn't appear to work well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You can't say that. This build has been played 2 days now. get the people time to change their play style. <!--quoteo(post=1954026:date=Jul 26 2012, 09:28 PM:name=Daphisto)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Daphisto @ Jul 26 2012, 09:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954026"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And in the patch notes, it says the change was made to help with... get this... 1-base stalemates. Nothing really there about team coercion or anything like that. Just for stalemates... that's it? A problem that only really half existed which could be easily solved by the 4-hive alien upgrade of commander using T.res to evolve into the Gorge King and leveling their base. ha!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> In the patch notes isn't enough space to explain any idea in detail. You said already that it is also to increase the teamplay and from the games I played now, it does that.
All in all it only does hit the rambos and armory-campers. This change is way less noticeable as all the QQers seem to voice. The nerfs to aliens spawntime and extractor health seem to be enough to shift the balance more in favor to marines (compared to last build) even with the armory-changes. But it will take more time to get sure about this. It's difficult to tell something about the balance because new players do more often choose marines. This way marines always ending up with a lesser skilled team. On HBZ with voterandom I couldn't see any inbalance in favor of the aliens anymore. Also I don't have a problem with the decreased skulk-bite-range. I hit the marines as often as I do the last builds.
TL;DR: * The bite-range-change is not noticeable. * The "armory repairs no armor" change isn't game changing and does not cripple the marines. But it has increased teamplay and decreased the likelihood of marines-turtles. * I miss the secondary of the pistol. (If damage changes were to unintuitive, make accuracy changes. A laser is very intuitive for an accuracy increase.) * The alien-changes have further balanced the two teams. * I need to play more games to say moire about the balance.
€dit: Nearly forgot. The optimizations are great! More FPS and the hitreg got slightly better too.
Couldn't see any imbalance between aliens and marines?
Not sure if serious. Aliens effectively win when they get a second hive up. Leap skulks and fades dominate everything, even jetpacks. The armor healing change has further exasperated the imbalance between alien and marine midgames. Fades and leap skulks crush even harder than they did in b214.
<!--quoteo(post=1954256:date=Jul 27 2012, 12:31 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Jul 27 2012, 12:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954256"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Couldn't see any imbalance between aliens and marines?
Not sure if serious. Aliens effectively win when they get a second hive up. Leap skulks and fades dominate everything, even jetpacks. The armor healing change has further exasperated the imbalance between alien and marine midgames. Fades and leap skulks crush even harder than they did in b214.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe you play on the wrong servers? Try randomteams. As I wrote, noobs joining marines is much more likely. You nearly always end up with marines as the less skilled team. At least without randomteams.
<!--quoteo(post=1954261:date=Jul 27 2012, 04:41 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Jul 27 2012, 04:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954261"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maybe you play on the wrong servers? Try randomteams. As I wrote, noobs joining marines is much more likely. You nearly always end up with marines as the less skilled team. At least without randomteams.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Have you watched any competitive games in the past 15 patches? Played many gathers? I know, they are rare, but it's aliens who win with overwhelming majority.
I just don't play as marines anymore. Problem solved. Developers clearly don't want you playing as them anyway.
Oh and as for the "well it's in prep for bringing in exo suits!" -- all I have to say is, who cares? This game effectively sucks until exo suits are released then? What if I don't want a stupid exo suit? Not to mention a 2nd hive goes up way faster than you can research exo suits. At the current rate of patch releases they're probably going to cost 100 res to research and 50 personal res to purchase. Might even nerf it some more by slowing down the welder repair rate because somewhere there is a whiner that just couldn't cut it as an overpowered alien and didn't want the game to be "prolonged".
I played quite a bit yesterday as a skulk and i didnt notice a differance in game play from previous builds. As for every other change....Loving it!!!
Actually one thing.....Reducing the cost of welders to 2 pres would help keep marines equipped with one in the field and still leaving them with pres for guns when they come available.
<!--quoteo(post=1954283:date=Jul 27 2012, 08:00 AM:name=deathmonger87)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (deathmonger87 @ Jul 27 2012, 08:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954283"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I just don't play as marines anymore. Problem solved. Developers clearly don't want you playing as them anyway.
Oh and as for the "well it's in prep for bringing in exo suits!" -- all I have to say is, who cares? This game effectively sucks until exo suits are released then? What if I don't want a stupid exo suit? Not to mention a 2nd hive goes up way faster than you can research exo suits. At the current rate of patch releases they're probably going to cost 100 res to research and 50 personal res to purchase. Might even nerf it some more by slowing down the welder repair rate because somewhere there is a whiner that just couldn't cut it as an overpowered alien and didn't want the game to be "prolonged".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
UWE, bring back the HMG so marines stand a chance mid-game :)
<!--quoteo(post=1954251:date=Jul 27 2012, 06:13 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Jul 27 2012, 06:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954251"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sorry, but this is the fault of the players. You should have a mic. Use it! Also they have already stated that they will make it more obvious for other players that someone tries to weld them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You just said that players SHOULD have a mic. If the game mechanics force players to have a mic in order to win, do you see why NS2 will then only cater to a niche audience that plays games with mics? I want to see NS2 succeed BIG TIME! My dream would be a player base size of COD... that would be awesome. Can't make that happen if UWE is only catering to players who use mics. But maybe that is their design goal and I am just assuming they want to be financially successful.
Keep reading through threads, still haven't found a logical explanation to removing armor heal, other than "That's how it was in NS1 durrr". I like how that was the actual phrase (obviously without the "durr" part, that was for people who defend this change) in the changelog. And unfortunately that wasn't the only "like NS1" phrase. Whatever happened to "We don't want NS1 with better graphics" that charlie used to say all the time?
As for the other changes, I don't see a reason behind most of them, but I guess it's not like they're ruining the game, except for one or two.
And to the people who complain about marines camping in base and healing all the time getting good kd rate.... What game are you playing? This is NS2, not cod or cs. If marines camp in their base - aliens win. I honestly cannot understand some newcomers....
Welders do the following for the game, especially the public games.
-Obviously improve the team play and reliance upon your team to a needed level. -Paces the game for advancing marines which is an improvement for both marines and aliens. -Removes the guaranteed cost efficiency of all forward armories. -Doesn't permit the commander to just drop an armory and forget an area. -Encourages marines to play more aggressively using a mechanic that would of otherwise been severely underused if armories still gave armor. -Makes it 100% more reasonable to actually get to weld an RT back to full, which shouldn't be as uncommon or unreasonable to do. -Less tedious than standing in front of an armory, more enjoyable to stay in field for players in a stressful situation than running back to base.
The only legitimate criticism I've seen so far was iron horse's, that there isn't a way to communicate being welded easily atm. And maybe that 5 pres is slightly too much for a welder.
<!--quoteo(post=1954356:date=Jul 27 2012, 10:49 AM:name=eh?)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (eh? @ Jul 27 2012, 10:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954356"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Welders do the following for the game, especially the public games.
-Obviously improve the team play and reliance upon your team to a needed level. -Paces the game for advancing marines which is an improvement for both marines and aliens. -Removes the guaranteed cost efficiency of all forward armories. -Doesn't permit the commander to just drop an armory and forget an area. -Encourages marines to play more aggressively using a mechanic that would of otherwise been severely underused if armories still gave armor. -Makes it 100% more reasonable to actually get to weld an RT back to full, which shouldn't be as uncommon or unreasonable to do. -Less tedious than standing in front of an armory, more enjoyable to stay in field for players in a stressful situation than running back to base.
The only legitimate criticism I've seen so far was iron horse's, that there isn't a way to communicate being welded easily atm. And maybe that 5 pres is slightly too much for a welder.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1954264:date=Jul 27 2012, 03:49 AM:name=rantology)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rantology @ Jul 27 2012, 03:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954264"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Have you watched any competitive games in the past 15 patches? Played many gathers? I know, they are rare, but it's aliens who win with overwhelming majority.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I wouldn't know about competitive. How many competitive games have you played in 215? I know its shocking but marines, in my experience the last 2 days, have been winning more. Still not enough to call balance. It wasn't because we were playing against noob teams. Both sides got pretty good players and it was close, but over several games the marines won a lot. I think I was in the HBZ server.
Before I got to that series of games I had a bunch of noob marines. They literally never left their base, and any time one got hurt they all went to weld the one guy. 5 minute game...
I can't say it is balanced but I can say it is better than before.
<!--quoteo(post=1954356:date=Jul 27 2012, 11:49 AM:name=eh?)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (eh? @ Jul 27 2012, 11:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954356"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The only legitimate criticism I've seen so far was iron horse's, that there isn't a way to communicate being welded easily atm. And maybe that 5 pres is slightly too much for a welder.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1
welders = 2, maybe 3 pres
voice commands: "Hey, I need a weld!" - for when you need welding
"Hey, you need welding!" - for when team mates aren't paying attention to their armor and start running away from you when you try to weld them.
Also make it so that on the scoreboard, it shows who on your team already has welder and who does not.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"Hey, I need a weld!" - for when you need welding<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In competitive games, people will just know to keep welding each other. In pub games, people will not even know that the function exists, they won't hear, insert your reason here. It just won't be consistent. Which is why I think it should be a bonus, fast armor healing as a reward if you can get the communication working to make it happen. Otherwise you should still be able to heal armor at an armory (or hey, how's this for a suggestion, at a robotics factory?) but at a very slow rate. So you can either gamble on the team healer, or take the sure bet of an armory heal.
The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of robotics factories healing armor in their vicinity (you have to face them, you can't be shooting, perhaps there's a delay before it starts happening) as the structure deals with building other structures, right?
Yea... i'll bite. <!--QuoteBegin-eh?+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (eh?)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->-Obviously improve the team play and reliance upon your team to a needed level.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> -I wouldn't call mandatory team chores a fine example of 'improving' teamplay. Team smarts and willingness to work very closely together arn't systematically present in pub games by definition. You want to improve teamplay, you make it a reasonably superior option instead of simply the <b>only</b> option as a minimum requirement. Willingly choosing to work together at whatever level is always going to be more rewarding than forced team interaction. <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->-Paces the game for advancing marines which is an improvement for both marines and aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> -The welder option was previously present as well. Not a justification for removing armour healing from armoury at all. Infact, its the totally wrong approach to 'pacing' the game where res and map control should be the determining and motivating factors. Not to mention forward armouries also paced the game for advancing marines in a way that made sense in the context of the powernode system. Defensively, armourys are effectively the same as IP spawning. <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->-Removes the guaranteed cost efficiency of all forward armories.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> -No, the cost efficiency is still there. Whether you drop an armoury in base or forward, heavy welder use is still a minimum requirement such that essentially the same relative cost efficiency is still there. The only difference is the higher pres requirement which sees commander pres finally having some kind of useful role. Again, effectively no difference here from pre215 and b215 except for a higher level of player co-ordination and pres sinking required (Largely unrelated to tres outlays). <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->-Doesn't permit the commander to just drop an armory and forget an area.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> -Oh it sure does. Commander's don't heal armour, so they sure as hell can still 'drop an armoury and forget about it'. Also remember where welders come from and how the decision to buy welders can function separately from the commander. <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->-Encourages marines to play more aggressively using a mechanic that would of otherwise been severely underused if armories still gave armor.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Let players make their own decisions and if they're bad, let them suffer the consequences. If bad players want to go back to hump the armoury, let them pay their time penalty and discover for themselves the importance of time and aggressiveness. Whats next - prevent guns from firing if the crosshair isn't on target? If players don't want to play aggressively, arn't confident and just want to help the team defend the base or a key position, why not? Armoury's didn't make them invulnerable, and they are just as responsible for stalemates as LMG's. Why are we trying to dictate how players play, what teamplay is, and what they find fun on such a specific level?
A good player with a min/max mindset was always still going to pick the option that best supported his/her aggressiveness whether it be welders or armoury. If the goal really was to encourage 'aggressive play', removing options certainly didn't accomplish this. In the context of pub games, sometimes very forward armouries are preferable, and sometimes welders actually discourage aggressive plays due to imperfect teamwork and information. <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->-Makes it 100% more reasonable to actually get to weld an RT back to full, which shouldn't be as uncommon or unreasonable to do.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Because it was totally unreasonable for commander to drop welders after an RT defend. Much better to force players to buy welders on spawning so commanders can 'place RT and forget about it'. The armoury change is totally irrelevant to this point. <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->-Less tedious than standing in front of an armory, more enjoyable to stay in field for players in a stressful situation than running back to base.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If you want to talk about this in the context of public games, its totally disingenuous to call welder healing less tedious than armoury healing. One method is reliable, one is not. Forward armouries allowed players to stay in the field and served the same function as welders only as a tres sink instead of a pres sink. It allowed a group of selfish or inexperienced quickplay pub players to work in some semblance of a team without forcing them to do something they didn't want to. Remember why we play games in the first place. People will always do what they find fun and enjoyable - why force player choices? If people found welder play fun and rewarding, they always had the option to do so.
Lets not forget that welding also involves 'standing infront of an armory' only the armoury is now a player.
<!--quoteo(post=1954407:date=Jul 27 2012, 01:18 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Jul 27 2012, 01:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954407"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Good luck healing yourself with that welder.. it doesnt give you HP also. Pointless discussing this with people that have a closed mindset<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Chasing people around with Welders while Fades are jumping around is fun and exciting.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->-I wouldn't call mandatory team chores a fine example of 'improving' teamplay. Team smarts and willingness to work very closely together arn't systematically present in pub games by definition. You want to improve teamplay, you make it a reasonably superior option instead of simply the <b>only</b> option as a minimum requirement. Willingly choosing to work together at whatever level is always going to be more rewarding than forced team interaction.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The only thing that made it a chore in ns1 was that welders weren't so available for everyone to use so you had to play welder shuffle minigames. That isn't an issue in ns2. Keep in mind you're basing all your criticism on the "chore" and "tediousness" of getting welded in public games after 20 or so patches where people didn't have to do it, and have just recently had an ENTIRE DAY to get used to doing it. Let me put this as nicely as possible, you can't possibly judge the efficacy of a major change like this after one day. Not even at competitive levels imo with constant games going. It's not a reflection of your ability to judge balance or anything, you just overlooked it. As most people seem to have done.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The welder option was previously present as well. Not a justification for removing armour healing from armoury at all. Infact, its the totally wrong approach to 'pacing' the game where res and map control should be the determining and motivating factors. Not to mention forward armouries also paced the game for advancing marines in a way that made sense in the context of the powernode system. Defensively, armourys are effectively the same as IP spawning.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You misunderstood the pacing apparently. The pacing I speak of is how marines advance through the map as a 2-4 man group. Fighting small batches of aliens, rewelding, and advancing further to their objective. You still seem to be of the mind that the old ns2 approach of "get an armory and lock the room down" is a good or enjoyable gameplay mechanic. It's the exact opposite because its just a siegemap microcosm marines try to stick into ns2 constantly for the past 20 patches.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No, the cost efficiency is still there. Whether you drop an armoury in base or forward, heavy welder use is still a minimum requirement such that essentially the same relative cost efficiency is still there. The only difference is the higher pres requirement which sees commander pres finally having some kind of useful role. Again, effectively no difference here from pre215 and b215 except for a higher level of player co-ordination and pres sinking required (Largely unrelated to tres outlays).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The cost efficiency is there maybe for large player count games, but that's just an issue with medpack and ammopack costs not being scaleable with player count. But there isn't any real reason to get an armory with 6v6 in a forward position at the moment if you could tech faster instead. Unless your team for whatever reason decides not to weld eachother
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->-Oh it sure does. Commander's don't heal armour, so they sure as hell can still 'drop an armoury and forget about it'. Also remember where welders come from and how the decision to buy welders can function separately from the commander.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know if you thought this through... The only part of that I can even decipher as relevant to what I said was that you seem to think being able to buy the welder in a forward position is enough to allow the commander to ignore a forward position. Which just sounds stupid frankly.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Let players make their own decisions and if they're bad, let them suffer the consequences. If bad players want to go back to hump the armoury, let them pay their time penalty and discover for themselves the importance of time and aggressiveness. Whats next - prevent guns from firing if the crosshair isn't on target? If players don't want to play aggressively, arn't confident and just want to help the team defend the base or a key position, why not? Armoury's didn't make them invulnerable, and they are just as responsible for stalemates as LMG's. Why are we trying to dictate how players play, what teamplay is, and what they find fun on such a specific level?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hyperbole ignored, the only thing being dictated is that lone marines are now as weak as they should be. And it's not even really dictated so much as subtly implied to them.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A good player with a min/max mindset was always still going to pick the option that best supported his/her aggressiveness whether it be welders or armoury. If the goal really was to encourage 'aggressive play', removing options certainly didn't accomplish this. In the context of pub games, sometimes very forward armouries are preferable, and sometimes welders actually discourage aggressive plays due to imperfect teamwork and information.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It removed the option for marines to hold out an area they should not be capable of holding out for an indefinite period of time. Imperfect teamwork after one day of playing as well.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Because it was totally unreasonable for commander to drop welders after an RT defend. Much better to force players to buy welders on spawning so commanders can 'place RT and forget about it'. The armoury change is totally irrelevant to this point.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well if you call having the number of typical welders on the field changing from 0 to [team size / 2] being irrelevant to being able to weld something, then I guess you know better.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you want to talk about this in the context of public games, its totally disingenuous to call welder healing less tedious than armoury healing. One method is reliable, one is not. Forward armouries allowed players to stay in the field and served the same function as welders only as a tres sink instead of a pres sink. It allowed a group of selfish or inexperienced quickplay pub players to work in some semblance of a team without forcing them to do something they didn't want to. Remember why we play games in the first place. People will always do what they find fun and enjoyable - why force player choices? If people found welder play fun and rewarding, they always had the option to do so.
Lets not forget that welding also involves 'standing infront of an armory' only the armoury is now a player.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So welding takes less time, can be done while moving, and done anywhere at anytime. I won't disagree I think pres sinks are an issue, but that's a much broader issue that this change has frankly had very little impact on. Armory humping play is a pretty bland gameplay mechanic. I'm confused who thinks it is worth keeping. Or why people want it. The only reason I've come up with thus far is that people got to play with it for months so far and don't want to see it go away. I mean really what other reason do people want to continue standing in front of armories atm besides the blanket "oh i cant get joe schmoe to weld me"
Comments
I like the <i>idea</i> of the welders-only armor healing, but the implementation is flawed in that most people don't pack welders (yet) and there's no dynamic that ensures it gets done. I think I'll just echo the sentiments in another thread on B215, in that I think the best solution is to just make the armory heal armor, albeit very slowly. Akin to the idea that if you have a machine do something, it does it slower than a human - like how a MAC can build something, but it's much faster to have a marine do it.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2.7 is a typo. It was 1.6 before, lowered to 1.5. So the change is not quite that big.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'll quote from the lua file tomorrow, where it is commented, and the programmer specifically comments that to "get it back" to its previous value you would have to add 1.2. So I would ask for more detail about it being a typo. I certainly feel like playing as a skulk there is a huge difference in being able to connect with marines. Now that I've had some more opportunity to practice I have had to revisit my playing style completely to land hits as a skulk - and it is a lot more challenging. I wouldn't mind so much if we could choose our level of challenge - say have different servers with different difficulty levels enabled - but raising the bar across the board will make a lot of new players sigh with frustration.
The alien nerfs, especially the lerk armor, are a step in the right direction, as lerks are getting shot down with a bit more regularity - but it still seems to take a random point-blank shotgun to do it. I haven't seen any impact on fades. As soon as 1-2 skilled fade players start harassing a base it's generally game over as they can take care of any marine resistance, and then let the skulks and spikelorks take out the base.
What I find is missing, interestingly, is the endgame. By the time aliens get the third hive they pretty much own the map, so you don't see so much stomp / umbra / vortex / xeno as you might. In fact in the dozen or so games I've played Onos were fairly rare, and I think I saw arcs in two games. I think tying the alien abilities to the number of hives is the right approach, I just think it will be a rare and epic game where you see the last tier abilities being brought out in order to decide a game.
Excuse me while i don't feel sorry for the 214 skulk bite range... :
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/40lyb.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
oh and:
<!--quoteo(post=1954096:date=Jul 26 2012, 03:30 PM:name=matso)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (matso @ Jul 26 2012, 03:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954096"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2.7 is a typo. It was 1.6 before, lowered to 1.5. So the change is not quite that big.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And even tho i <b>despise</b> the lack of air control its a)more similar to ns1 now b) players cannot exploit it as they have been doing..
what one is that? how many more are you hiding under there?
More information is always better, imo.
If only i could forgo my own opinion at the same time, tho.. lol
edit: (But to answer your question its "trace all" and "thirdperson 1" then take a bite. i dont recommend doing this other than in a lan game.)
2nd edit: looks like matso beat me to it already! look up! (trace m is for melee, obviously, but all will still work)
Didnt notice any difference with it, but maybe youre right. Didnt see any difference in overall hitreg either, skulks still take 2-3+ sg hits to kill and +half a magazine from the lmg. Performance has been going down for me in the last couple of builds. Fps dropping into the low 30s while it feels like sub 15 because it becomes a huge slideshow a lot of time. What kind of machines do the people have whos fps has been improving? Sure the fps is 80-100 when waiting to spawn, but when youre actually playing it just sinks so very low.
Skulk aircontrol is like alpha version marine, you can strafe in air. Feels really bad now. It felt pretty good in some of the earlier builds with walljump in it. Didnt play alien round long enough before disconnecting to try fade double jump, but it does sounds like it can actually be fun. Well, atleast if shadowstep now works.
Sorry, but this is the fault of the players. You should have a mic. Use it! Also they have already stated that they will make it more obvious for other players that someone tries to weld them.
<!--quoteo(post=1954026:date=Jul 26 2012, 09:28 PM:name=Daphisto)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Daphisto @ Jul 26 2012, 09:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954026"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Logically, the armory change could make perfect sense: Get people to work together, stay focused on keeping your teammates alive and work together as a team.
But in practice, it doesn't appear to work well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can't say that. This build has been played 2 days now. get the people time to change their play style.
<!--quoteo(post=1954026:date=Jul 26 2012, 09:28 PM:name=Daphisto)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Daphisto @ Jul 26 2012, 09:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954026"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And in the patch notes, it says the change was made to help with... get this... 1-base stalemates. Nothing really there about team coercion or anything like that. Just for stalemates... that's it? A problem that only really half existed which could be easily solved by the 4-hive alien upgrade of commander using T.res to evolve into the Gorge King and leveling their base. ha!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In the patch notes isn't enough space to explain any idea in detail. You said already that it is also to increase the teamplay and from the games I played now, it does that.
All in all it only does hit the rambos and armory-campers. This change is way less noticeable as all the QQers seem to voice. The nerfs to aliens spawntime and extractor health seem to be enough to shift the balance more in favor to marines (compared to last build) even with the armory-changes. But it will take more time to get sure about this. It's difficult to tell something about the balance because new players do more often choose marines. This way marines always ending up with a lesser skilled team. On HBZ with voterandom I couldn't see any inbalance in favor of the aliens anymore. Also I don't have a problem with the decreased skulk-bite-range. I hit the marines as often as I do the last builds.
TL;DR:
* The bite-range-change is not noticeable.
* The "armory repairs no armor" change isn't game changing and does not cripple the marines. But it has increased teamplay and decreased the likelihood of marines-turtles.
* I miss the secondary of the pistol. (If damage changes were to unintuitive, make accuracy changes. A laser is very intuitive for an accuracy increase.)
* The alien-changes have further balanced the two teams.
* I need to play more games to say moire about the balance.
€dit: Nearly forgot. The optimizations are great! More FPS and the hitreg got slightly better too.
Not sure if serious. Aliens effectively win when they get a second hive up. Leap skulks and fades dominate everything, even jetpacks. The armor healing change has further exasperated the imbalance between alien and marine midgames. Fades and leap skulks crush even harder than they did in b214.
Not sure if serious. Aliens effectively win when they get a second hive up. Leap skulks and fades dominate everything, even jetpacks. The armor healing change has further exasperated the imbalance between alien and marine midgames. Fades and leap skulks crush even harder than they did in b214.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe you play on the wrong servers? Try randomteams. As I wrote, noobs joining marines is much more likely. You nearly always end up with marines as the less skilled team. At least without randomteams.
Have you watched any competitive games in the past 15 patches? Played many gathers? I know, they are rare, but it's aliens who win with overwhelming majority.
Oh and as for the "well it's in prep for bringing in exo suits!" -- all I have to say is, who cares? This game effectively sucks until exo suits are released then? What if I don't want a stupid exo suit? Not to mention a 2nd hive goes up way faster than you can research exo suits. At the current rate of patch releases they're probably going to cost 100 res to research and 50 personal res to purchase. Might even nerf it some more by slowing down the welder repair rate because somewhere there is a whiner that just couldn't cut it as an overpowered alien and didn't want the game to be "prolonged".
Actually one thing.....Reducing the cost of welders to 2 pres would help keep marines equipped with one in the field and still leaving them with pres for guns when they come available.
Oh and as for the "well it's in prep for bringing in exo suits!" -- all I have to say is, who cares? This game effectively sucks until exo suits are released then? What if I don't want a stupid exo suit? Not to mention a 2nd hive goes up way faster than you can research exo suits. At the current rate of patch releases they're probably going to cost 100 res to research and 50 personal res to purchase. Might even nerf it some more by slowing down the welder repair rate because somewhere there is a whiner that just couldn't cut it as an overpowered alien and didn't want the game to be "prolonged".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
UWE, bring back the HMG so marines stand a chance mid-game :)
<!--quoteo(post=1954251:date=Jul 27 2012, 06:13 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Jul 27 2012, 06:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954251"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sorry, but this is the fault of the players. You should have a mic. Use it! Also they have already stated that they will make it more obvious for other players that someone tries to weld them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You just said that players SHOULD have a mic. If the game mechanics force players to have a mic in order to win, do you see why NS2 will then only cater to a niche audience that plays games with mics? I want to see NS2 succeed BIG TIME! My dream would be a player base size of COD... that would be awesome. Can't make that happen if UWE is only catering to players who use mics. But maybe that is their design goal and I am just assuming they want to be financially successful.
As for the other changes, I don't see a reason behind most of them, but I guess it's not like they're ruining the game, except for one or two.
And to the people who complain about marines camping in base and healing all the time getting good kd rate.... What game are you playing? This is NS2, not cod or cs. If marines camp in their base - aliens win. I honestly cannot understand some newcomers....
Not sure, I'll give b215 a try tonight :D
-Obviously improve the team play and reliance upon your team to a needed level.
-Paces the game for advancing marines which is an improvement for both marines and aliens.
-Removes the guaranteed cost efficiency of all forward armories.
-Doesn't permit the commander to just drop an armory and forget an area.
-Encourages marines to play more aggressively using a mechanic that would of otherwise been severely underused if armories still gave armor.
-Makes it 100% more reasonable to actually get to weld an RT back to full, which shouldn't be as uncommon or unreasonable to do.
-Less tedious than standing in front of an armory, more enjoyable to stay in field for players in a stressful situation than running back to base.
The only legitimate criticism I've seen so far was iron horse's, that there isn't a way to communicate being welded easily atm. And maybe that 5 pres is slightly too much for a welder.
-Obviously improve the team play and reliance upon your team to a needed level.
-Paces the game for advancing marines which is an improvement for both marines and aliens.
-Removes the guaranteed cost efficiency of all forward armories.
-Doesn't permit the commander to just drop an armory and forget an area.
-Encourages marines to play more aggressively using a mechanic that would of otherwise been severely underused if armories still gave armor.
-Makes it 100% more reasonable to actually get to weld an RT back to full, which shouldn't be as uncommon or unreasonable to do.
-Less tedious than standing in front of an armory, more enjoyable to stay in field for players in a stressful situation than running back to base.
The only legitimate criticism I've seen so far was iron horse's, that there isn't a way to communicate being welded easily atm. And maybe that 5 pres is slightly too much for a welder.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1
I wouldn't know about competitive. How many competitive games have you played in 215? I know its shocking but marines, in my experience the last 2 days, have been winning more. Still not enough to call balance. It wasn't because we were playing against noob teams. Both sides got pretty good players and it was close, but over several games the marines won a lot. I think I was in the HBZ server.
Before I got to that series of games I had a bunch of noob marines. They literally never left their base, and any time one got hurt they all went to weld the one guy. 5 minute game...
I can't say it is balanced but I can say it is better than before.
+1
welders = 2, maybe 3 pres
voice commands:
"Hey, I need a weld!" - for when you need welding
"Hey, you need welding!" - for when team mates aren't paying attention to their armor and start running away from you when you try to weld them.
Also make it so that on the scoreboard, it shows who on your team already has welder and who does not.
In competitive games, people will just know to keep welding each other. In pub games, people will not even know that the function exists, they won't hear, insert your reason here. It just won't be consistent. Which is why I think it should be a bonus, fast armor healing as a reward if you can get the communication working to make it happen. Otherwise you should still be able to heal armor at an armory (or hey, how's this for a suggestion, at a robotics factory?) but at a very slow rate. So you can either gamble on the team healer, or take the sure bet of an armory heal.
The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of robotics factories healing armor in their vicinity (you have to face them, you can't be shooting, perhaps there's a delay before it starts happening) as the structure deals with building other structures, right?
<!--QuoteBegin-eh?+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (eh?)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->-Obviously improve the team play and reliance upon your team to a needed level.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
-I wouldn't call mandatory team chores a fine example of 'improving' teamplay. Team smarts and willingness to work very closely together arn't systematically present in pub games by definition. You want to improve teamplay, you make it a reasonably superior option instead of simply the <b>only</b> option as a minimum requirement. Willingly choosing to work together at whatever level is always going to be more rewarding than forced team interaction.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->-Paces the game for advancing marines which is an improvement for both marines and aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
-The welder option was previously present as well. Not a justification for removing armour healing from armoury at all. Infact, its the totally wrong approach to 'pacing' the game where res and map control should be the determining and motivating factors. Not to mention forward armouries also paced the game for advancing marines in a way that made sense in the context of the powernode system. Defensively, armourys are effectively the same as IP spawning.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->-Removes the guaranteed cost efficiency of all forward armories.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
-No, the cost efficiency is still there. Whether you drop an armoury in base or forward, heavy welder use is still a minimum requirement such that essentially the same relative cost efficiency is still there. The only difference is the higher pres requirement which sees commander pres finally having some kind of useful role. Again, effectively no difference here from pre215 and b215 except for a higher level of player co-ordination and pres sinking required (Largely unrelated to tres outlays).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->-Doesn't permit the commander to just drop an armory and forget an area.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
-Oh it sure does. Commander's don't heal armour, so they sure as hell can still 'drop an armoury and forget about it'. Also remember where welders come from and how the decision to buy welders can function separately from the commander.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->-Encourages marines to play more aggressively using a mechanic that would of otherwise been severely underused if armories still gave armor.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let players make their own decisions and if they're bad, let them suffer the consequences. If bad players want to go back to hump the armoury, let them pay their time penalty and discover for themselves the importance of time and aggressiveness. Whats next - prevent guns from firing if the crosshair isn't on target? If players don't want to play aggressively, arn't confident and just want to help the team defend the base or a key position, why not? Armoury's didn't make them invulnerable, and they are just as responsible for stalemates as LMG's. Why are we trying to dictate how players play, what teamplay is, and what they find fun on such a specific level?
A good player with a min/max mindset was always still going to pick the option that best supported his/her aggressiveness whether it be welders or armoury. If the goal really was to encourage 'aggressive play', removing options certainly didn't accomplish this. In the context of pub games, sometimes very forward armouries are preferable, and sometimes welders actually discourage aggressive plays due to imperfect teamwork and information.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->-Makes it 100% more reasonable to actually get to weld an RT back to full, which shouldn't be as uncommon or unreasonable to do.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because it was totally unreasonable for commander to drop welders after an RT defend. Much better to force players to buy welders on spawning so commanders can 'place RT and forget about it'. The armoury change is totally irrelevant to this point.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->-Less tedious than standing in front of an armory, more enjoyable to stay in field for players in a stressful situation than running back to base.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you want to talk about this in the context of public games, its totally disingenuous to call welder healing less tedious than armoury healing. One method is reliable, one is not. Forward armouries allowed players to stay in the field and served the same function as welders only as a tres sink instead of a pres sink. It allowed a group of selfish or inexperienced quickplay pub players to work in some semblance of a team without forcing them to do something they didn't want to. Remember why we play games in the first place. People will always do what they find fun and enjoyable - why force player choices? If people found welder play fun and rewarding, they always had the option to do so.
Lets not forget that welding also involves 'standing infront of an armory' only the armoury is now a player.
Pointless discussing this with people that have a closed mindset
Pointless discussing this with people that have a closed mindset<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Chasing people around with Welders while Fades are jumping around is fun and exciting.
The only thing that made it a chore in ns1 was that welders weren't so available for everyone to use so you had to play welder shuffle minigames. That isn't an issue in ns2. Keep in mind you're basing all your criticism on the "chore" and "tediousness" of getting welded in public games after 20 or so patches where people didn't have to do it, and have just recently had an ENTIRE DAY to get used to doing it. Let me put this as nicely as possible, you can't possibly judge the efficacy of a major change like this after one day. Not even at competitive levels imo with constant games going. It's not a reflection of your ability to judge balance or anything, you just overlooked it. As most people seem to have done.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The welder option was previously present as well. Not a justification for removing armour healing from armoury at all. Infact, its the totally wrong approach to 'pacing' the game where res and map control should be the determining and motivating factors. Not to mention forward armouries also paced the game for advancing marines in a way that made sense in the context of the powernode system. Defensively, armourys are effectively the same as IP spawning.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You misunderstood the pacing apparently. The pacing I speak of is how marines advance through the map as a 2-4 man group. Fighting small batches of aliens, rewelding, and advancing further to their objective. You still seem to be of the mind that the old ns2 approach of "get an armory and lock the room down" is a good or enjoyable gameplay mechanic. It's the exact opposite because its just a siegemap microcosm marines try to stick into ns2 constantly for the past 20 patches.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No, the cost efficiency is still there. Whether you drop an armoury in base or forward, heavy welder use is still a minimum requirement such that essentially the same relative cost efficiency is still there. The only difference is the higher pres requirement which sees commander pres finally having some kind of useful role. Again, effectively no difference here from pre215 and b215 except for a higher level of player co-ordination and pres sinking required (Largely unrelated to tres outlays).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The cost efficiency is there maybe for large player count games, but that's just an issue with medpack and ammopack costs not being scaleable with player count. But there isn't any real reason to get an armory with 6v6 in a forward position at the moment if you could tech faster instead. Unless your team for whatever reason decides not to weld eachother
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->-Oh it sure does. Commander's don't heal armour, so they sure as hell can still 'drop an armoury and forget about it'. Also remember where welders come from and how the decision to buy welders can function separately from the commander.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know if you thought this through... The only part of that I can even decipher as relevant to what I said was that you seem to think being able to buy the welder in a forward position is enough to allow the commander to ignore a forward position. Which just sounds stupid frankly.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Let players make their own decisions and if they're bad, let them suffer the consequences. If bad players want to go back to hump the armoury, let them pay their time penalty and discover for themselves the importance of time and aggressiveness. Whats next - prevent guns from firing if the crosshair isn't on target? If players don't want to play aggressively, arn't confident and just want to help the team defend the base or a key position, why not? Armoury's didn't make them invulnerable, and they are just as responsible for stalemates as LMG's. Why are we trying to dictate how players play, what teamplay is, and what they find fun on such a specific level?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hyperbole ignored, the only thing being dictated is that lone marines are now as weak as they should be. And it's not even really dictated so much as subtly implied to them.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A good player with a min/max mindset was always still going to pick the option that best supported his/her aggressiveness whether it be welders or armoury. If the goal really was to encourage 'aggressive play', removing options certainly didn't accomplish this. In the context of pub games, sometimes very forward armouries are preferable, and sometimes welders actually discourage aggressive plays due to imperfect teamwork and information.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It removed the option for marines to hold out an area they should not be capable of holding out for an indefinite period of time. Imperfect teamwork after one day of playing as well.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Because it was totally unreasonable for commander to drop welders after an RT defend. Much better to force players to buy welders on spawning so commanders can 'place RT and forget about it'. The armoury change is totally irrelevant to this point.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well if you call having the number of typical welders on the field changing from 0 to [team size / 2] being irrelevant to being able to weld something, then I guess you know better.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you want to talk about this in the context of public games, its totally disingenuous to call welder healing less tedious than armoury healing. One method is reliable, one is not. Forward armouries allowed players to stay in the field and served the same function as welders only as a tres sink instead of a pres sink. It allowed a group of selfish or inexperienced quickplay pub players to work in some semblance of a team without forcing them to do something they didn't want to. Remember why we play games in the first place. People will always do what they find fun and enjoyable - why force player choices? If people found welder play fun and rewarding, they always had the option to do so.
Lets not forget that welding also involves 'standing infront of an armory' only the armoury is now a player.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So welding takes less time, can be done while moving, and done anywhere at anytime. I won't disagree I think pres sinks are an issue, but that's a much broader issue that this change has frankly had very little impact on. Armory humping play is a pretty bland gameplay mechanic. I'm confused who thinks it is worth keeping. Or why people want it. The only reason I've come up with thus far is that people got to play with it for months so far and don't want to see it go away. I mean really what other reason do people want to continue standing in front of armories atm besides the blanket "oh i cant get joe schmoe to weld me"