<!--quoteo(post=1948841:date=Jul 4 2012, 01:50 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jul 4 2012, 01:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948841"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sometimes true, but the trouble was you had to get to those spots, which were generally about ten feet from the door of the hive, which meant you came under very heavy attack while trying to defend the sieges.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And that is exactly the kind of thrilling game play we'd like to see return. Some of the defining moments of Natural Selection. Something that is utterly missing to NS2's "send your marines this way and 10 ARCs that way and if that doesn't work send 20" kind of game play.
Just like player I'm wondering if some of you have played NS1 at all, or perhaps mostly Combat.
UWE has made some good choices in the past, playing around with features and removing stuff that doesn't work. I want them to make another bold move: Return siege turrets for a build or two. Just to see how it works in NS2. Perhaps I'm all wrong and it would suck. But I have a feeling some of you would be pleasantly surprised.
<!--quoteo(post=1948914:date=Jul 4 2012, 10:01 AM:name=NurEinMensch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NurEinMensch @ Jul 4 2012, 10:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948914"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And that is exactly the kind of thrilling game play we'd like to see return. Some of the defining moments of Natural Selection. Something that is utterly missing to NS2's "send your marines this way and 10 ARCs that way and if that doesn't work send 20" kind of game play.
Just like player I'm wondering if some of you have played NS1 at all, or perhaps mostly Combat.
UWE has made some good choices in the past, playing around with features and removing stuff that doesn't work. I want them to make another bold move: Return siege turrets for a build or two. Just to see how it works in NS2. Perhaps I'm all wrong and it would suck. But I have a feeling some of you would be pleasantly surprised.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I just don't understand why we can't have the gameplay with 1 ARC per CC? In theory there is no difference between one ARC and a lot of ARCs or siege cannons. If you want to build directly at the enemy you could drop a factory there and build the ARC there, no one (except the aliens) is going to stop you from doing this.
In case anyone is bothered by the idea of wasting assets like animations or newbies wondering why ARCs have treads if they can't move, they could still be allowed to move within range of a robotics factory (but not beyond), allowing repositioning if you get the ranges slightly wrong, but not moving them across the map.
Unless you have a chain of robotics factories the whole way I suppose, but if the alien team is letting you do that, then they probably deserve to lose.
<!--quoteo(post=1948917:date=Jul 5 2012, 02:12 AM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Jul 5 2012, 02:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948917"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In case anyone is bothered by the idea of wasting assets like animations or newbies wondering why ARCs have treads if they can't move, they could still be allowed to move within range of a robotics factory (but not beyond), allowing repositioning if you get the ranges slightly wrong, but not moving them across the map.
Unless you have a chain of robotics factories the whole way I suppose, but if the alien team is letting you do that, then they probably deserve to lose.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Nice lateral thinking; I like it. What about the power/infestation problem, though? Or is this assuming those factors are removed?
<!--quoteo(post=1948940:date=Jul 4 2012, 11:26 AM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Jul 4 2012, 11:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948940"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think player has done enough to show why tying 1-ARC to 1-CC is bound to be a balance headache.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't agree with this. He hasn't posted anything which would change my mind.
Yeah, I figured I wouldn't convince you even I <i>could</i> be bothered so I just chimed in with a +1 ;)
*edit* The ARC-activation idea is very popular anyway and adopting it would avoid this debate (hence my reluctance to go into detail). I haven't seen anyone resist the idea except UWE as of yet. I'd love to see why people think it's such a horrible idea.
<!--quoteo(post=1948861:date=Jul 4 2012, 10:48 PM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Jul 4 2012, 10:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948861"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Okay, I think you lot don't understand how sieging worked in NS1. It was a scale: you had sieges on the one side, and the hive with its innate-healing + healing gorges + DCs on the other side. In order to succesfully siege a hive you had to tip the scale in your favour by building a sufficient amount of sieges, and have them fire fast enough and long enough to overtake the other side (hives\gorges\DCs). When I say a single ARC isn't strong enough, I mean it will _NEVER_ take down a hive because it cannot damage it fast enough to overtake its own healing + gorges + DCs. So rethink your idea of building an outpost at the siege-spot and sitting there for hours, because it won't do a damn thing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> i played a hella lot of NS1 but this isn't quite how I remember it. I don't remember any subtlety to the siege spam, but usually 3 was enough. The big difference was that sieging was much more about about clearing a path in to the hive chamber so that the marines could get in there to finish off the hive proper, much more like what Chris0132 said.
Anyway, this thread provoked my brain to come up with a solution last night just as I was going to sleep. I've <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=119282" target="_blank">posted it</a> on the ideas & suggestions area along with some analysis on why some of the more popular suggestions discussed in this thread haven't or won't work. There's also a bit of subtltey to what I think the problem is now narrowed down to...
The more i fight against ARCs i want them to become regular siege turrets again. Just played another game where the marine comm did a full assault with several arcs on one side of the map while all other marines attacked on the other side with jetpacks. It was just impossible to defend both sides at the same time.
Upraded whips are very nice against ARCs. Only problem is that u need infestation to move in range and it cost some res. Upgraded whips have a bigger range than ARCs (i hope the wiki is up to date). If u assume that both sides did a good job and developed equaly, than u have the res for upgraded whips, while the marines have the res für robotics factory and ARCs (after second cc,proto,jp and upgrades). Its an even round so to speak. This is the only viable scenario where u can decide if ARCs are overpowered or not. The Aliens should have 3 Hives allready and some whips aswell. Its not a big deal to counter ARCs with upgraded whips even if another hive is under pressure (its easier this way actually, because no marines next to the ARCs who kill the cysts). If u didnt have all the requirements i mentioned before (as Aliens), then u simply failed early-mid game and it means u cant even dare to judge if ARCs are ###### up or not :D .
<!--quoteo(post=1951535:date=Jul 14 2012, 10:06 AM:name=Kasperle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kasperle @ Jul 14 2012, 10:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1951535"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Upraded whips are very nice against ARCs. Only problem is that u need infestation to move in range and it cost some res. Upgraded whips have a bigger range than ARCs (i hope the wiki is up to date). If u assume that both sides did a good job and developed equaly, than u have the res for upgraded whips, while the marines have the res für robotics factory and ARCs (after second cc,proto,jp and upgrades). Its an even round so to speak. This is the only viable scenario where u can decide if ARCs are overpowered or not. The Aliens should have 3 Hives allready and some whips aswell. Its not a big deal to counter ARCs with upgraded whips even if another hive is under pressure (its easier this way actually, because no marines next to the ARCs who kill the cysts). If u didnt have all the requirements i mentioned before (as Aliens), then u simply failed early-mid game and it means u cant even dare to judge if ARCs are ###### up or not :D .<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem is the whips require a lot of micro management, they die very easy in the AOE of the ARCs and you need a lot of whips to destroy the ARCs. To upgrade whips is expensive if you don't even know when you will have marines attacking. And since the ARCs can shoot through wall the whips can be avoided completely. The game i was referring to was an even game were none of the sides were able to take the 3rd hive location. Problematic was the marines had more resource towers. But it doesn't change the fact that pretty much every ARC adds another player to the marine players list. The gorge has the only AOE attack of the aliens, and since bile bomb did became a DOT you need more or less 1 player for each ARC to destroy them. The same isn't possible for aliens since whips require infestation and cysts have now a cooldown and spawn as a one shot kill. I don't say that it should be possible. But it also shouldn't be possible to have a "army" which doesn't require real players to be able to destroy complete alien bases.
<!--quoteo(post=1951552:date=Jul 14 2012, 11:47 AM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Jul 14 2012, 11:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1951552"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->you dont need a lot of whips to kill arcs. bombard is fantastic. but whips require LoS which makes relying on them very dodgy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Didn't have the "chance" to fight ARCs as a khamm yet. Though like i said when i play khamm i have mostly resource problems so that i can't upgrade whips when i feel like. And the by you named LoS problem.
Comments
And that is exactly the kind of thrilling game play we'd like to see return. Some of the defining moments of Natural Selection. Something that is utterly missing to NS2's "send your marines this way and 10 ARCs that way and if that doesn't work send 20" kind of game play.
Just like player I'm wondering if some of you have played NS1 at all, or perhaps mostly Combat.
UWE has made some good choices in the past, playing around with features and removing stuff that doesn't work. I want them to make another bold move: Return siege turrets for a build or two. Just to see how it works in NS2. Perhaps I'm all wrong and it would suck. But I have a feeling some of you would be pleasantly surprised.
Just like player I'm wondering if some of you have played NS1 at all, or perhaps mostly Combat.
UWE has made some good choices in the past, playing around with features and removing stuff that doesn't work. I want them to make another bold move: Return siege turrets for a build or two. Just to see how it works in NS2. Perhaps I'm all wrong and it would suck. But I have a feeling some of you would be pleasantly surprised.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I just don't understand why we can't have the gameplay with 1 ARC per CC? In theory there is no difference between one ARC and a lot of ARCs or siege cannons.
If you want to build directly at the enemy you could drop a factory there and build the ARC there, no one (except the aliens) is going to stop you from doing this.
Unless you have a chain of robotics factories the whole way I suppose, but if the alien team is letting you do that, then they probably deserve to lose.
Unless you have a chain of robotics factories the whole way I suppose, but if the alien team is letting you do that, then they probably deserve to lose.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nice lateral thinking; I like it. What about the power/infestation problem, though? Or is this assuming those factors are removed?
I don't agree with this. He hasn't posted anything which would change my mind.
*edit* The ARC-activation idea is very popular anyway and adopting it would avoid this debate (hence my reluctance to go into detail). I haven't seen anyone resist the idea except UWE as of yet. I'd love to see why people think it's such a horrible idea.
i played a hella lot of NS1 but this isn't quite how I remember it. I don't remember any subtlety to the siege spam, but usually 3 was enough. The big difference was that sieging was much more about about clearing a path in to the hive chamber so that the marines could get in there to finish off the hive proper, much more like what Chris0132 said.
Anyway, this thread provoked my brain to come up with a solution last night just as I was going to sleep. I've <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=119282" target="_blank">posted it</a> on the ideas & suggestions area along with some analysis on why some of the more popular suggestions discussed in this thread haven't or won't work. There's also a bit of subtltey to what I think the problem is now narrowed down to...
If u assume that both sides did a good job and developed equaly, than u have the res for upgraded whips, while the marines have the res für robotics factory and ARCs (after second cc,proto,jp and upgrades). Its an even round so to speak. This is the only viable scenario where u can decide if ARCs are overpowered or not.
The Aliens should have 3 Hives allready and some whips aswell. Its not a big deal to counter ARCs with upgraded whips even if another hive is under pressure (its easier this way actually, because no marines next to the ARCs who kill the cysts).
If u didnt have all the requirements i mentioned before (as Aliens), then u simply failed early-mid game and it means u cant even dare to judge if ARCs are ###### up or not :D .
If u assume that both sides did a good job and developed equaly, than u have the res for upgraded whips, while the marines have the res für robotics factory and ARCs (after second cc,proto,jp and upgrades). Its an even round so to speak. This is the only viable scenario where u can decide if ARCs are overpowered or not.
The Aliens should have 3 Hives allready and some whips aswell. Its not a big deal to counter ARCs with upgraded whips even if another hive is under pressure (its easier this way actually, because no marines next to the ARCs who kill the cysts).
If u didnt have all the requirements i mentioned before (as Aliens), then u simply failed early-mid game and it means u cant even dare to judge if ARCs are ###### up or not :D .<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem is the whips require a lot of micro management, they die very easy in the AOE of the ARCs and you need a lot of whips to destroy the ARCs. To upgrade whips is expensive if you don't even know when you will have marines attacking. And since the ARCs can shoot through wall the whips can be avoided completely.
The game i was referring to was an even game were none of the sides were able to take the 3rd hive location. Problematic was the marines had more resource towers.
But it doesn't change the fact that pretty much every ARC adds another player to the marine players list. The gorge has the only AOE attack of the aliens, and since bile bomb did became a DOT you need more or less 1 player for each ARC to destroy them.
The same isn't possible for aliens since whips require infestation and cysts have now a cooldown and spawn as a one shot kill. I don't say that it should be possible. But it also shouldn't be possible to have a "army" which doesn't require real players to be able to destroy complete alien bases.
Didn't have the "chance" to fight ARCs as a khamm yet. Though like i said when i play khamm i have mostly resource problems so that i can't upgrade whips when i feel like. And the by you named LoS problem.
That said, Bombard is very effective when it happens and Echo is good for dropping your whips in position they are needed.