<!--quoteo(post=1948687:date=Jul 3 2012, 01:46 PM:name=rantology)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rantology @ Jul 3 2012, 01:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948687"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So true.. I mean I know he is not supposed to heal the hive for <i>a lot</i> but he is just so horrible at it at the moment. JP rush got our generator hive down to 15% so I went gorge to heal it back up. God that was probably the most boring 3 minutes I've ever had playing NS2.
Especially when you compare his healing to that of a welder, the welder still heals 2-4x as fast as the gorge heal on the CC and that is just something any marine can pick up- the gorge is a dedicated support/non combat class! :(<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This. So much this.
Marines get attacked, aliens fail, and the base is repaired in seconds.
Aliens get attacked, marines fail, and the base will still be mostly dead by the time the marines attack in 5 minutes from now. Crags and whips all get evaporated and takes ages to rebuild. Marines don't need to rebuild all their structures every time marines attack.
Its boring, and only promotes slopped teamwork on marine team and boring repairs for the aliens. ARCs are a problem yes, but this is a bigger one.
The idea of upgrades for arc's is interesting. Adding scaling to arcs outside of simply buying more arcs keeps things clean, lets you mess around with the numbers better (For example, allowing a linear increase in damage, but not health, letting marines continually take down the hive faster as they progress, but not creating the massive wall of arcs that takes forever to kill) and might help to solve some of the issues. It lets you limit arcs, but maintain scaling over the course of the game with much more control, as you would have more predictable scaling, and a ceiling to exactly how powerful marine arcs can be.
<!--quoteo(post=1948675:date=Jul 3 2012, 08:05 PM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Jul 3 2012, 08:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948675"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Then 1 ARC (I'm saying 1 because sieging still has to be viable with 1 CC) should be able to take down an entire hive-room (with gorges healing the hive), how do you envision that ? Seems exceedingly difficult to balance. I feel like ARCs are another one of those features whose inception was triggered by a "wouldn't it be cool if..."-brainstorm. They're not bringing anything worthwhile to the table (and in fact break a mechanic that previously functioned very well in NS1).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why should one arc be able to take out an entire hive room by itself?
One arc should be a worthwhile support option and should definitely be something the marines want to bring with them, and it should be very capable of taking out the outer defences of a hive, but clearing out a hive room should require a significant marine attack, not just one arc and a minute or so of time.
An arc is a very durable, long ranged, infinite ammo grenade launcher that fires with perfect accuracy through walls. It is valuable simply because of that fact. You should always want to bring one even if you could only bring one, it doesn't need to do all the work by itself.
An ARC (Siege?) does do the bulk of the work by itself, the marines are there to hold off the aliens while it eats away the hive's defenses and eventually the hive. The idea is that an actively populated hive cannot safely be entered by marines or they will be taken down in seconds by the lifeforms thereabout that recieve passive healing from the hive, active healing from gorges and passive abilities from any chambers in that hive-room.
I'm still looking at ARCs as basically NS1-sieges but with wheels and a non-sensical escort-mission attached to them, hence the whole idea of the ARC just being there for 'support' seems completely contradictory with its role in NS1. Entering and attacking an active hive-room as marines, you're either a fully geared marine-team, or you're just dead, period (unless it's a silent-rush, and no lifeforms are around).
<!--quoteo(post=1948736:date=Jul 4 2012, 09:28 AM:name=Nakorson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nakorson @ Jul 4 2012, 09:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948736"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Although you already said that we should create a seperate topic for this. But isn't it the same with the welder? It disables the option for the aliens to make "repeat assaults", they also need to destroy the CC on the first try.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't really want to get drawn in to validating micro-comparisons which only serve to make the game more symetrical. Happy to discuss it in another thread.
<!--quoteo(post=1948795:date=Jul 4 2012, 12:36 AM:name=Khyron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Khyron @ Jul 4 2012, 12:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948795"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't really want to get drawn in to validating micro-comparisons which only serve to make the game more symetrical. Happy to discuss it in another thread.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well if you don't want to comment here and don't want to start a thread yourself though it was your idea for creating one, i will create one for this problem.
<!--quoteo(post=1948754:date=Jul 4 2012, 02:09 AM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Jul 4 2012, 02:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948754"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->An ARC (Siege?) does do the bulk of the work by itself, the marines are there to hold off the aliens while it eats away the hive's defenses and eventually the hive. The idea is that an actively populated hive cannot safely be entered by marines or they will be taken down in seconds by the lifeforms thereabout that recieve passive healing from the hive, active healing from gorges and passive abilities from any chambers in that hive-room.
I'm still looking at ARCs as basically NS1-sieges but with wheels and a non-sensical escort-mission attached to them, hence the whole idea of the ARC just being there for 'support' seems completely contradictory with its role in NS1. Entering and attacking an active hive-room as marines, you're either a fully geared marine-team, or you're just dead, period (unless it's a silent-rush, and no lifeforms are around).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's odd because I'm thinking back to NS1 and remembering that most of the time, arcs were used to soften up a hive, then you pushed in with exos and cleared out the aliens and remaining structures, mostly because the hive rooms were huge and it's hard to get a siege cannon close enough to hit all of it.
Once the arc has taken out some things close to it, the defence of the hive room is disrupted, the door isn't blocked with chambers and they've probably lost a sensory chamber or two, and there aren't as many DCs around. Also most of the lifeforms have been either injured or killed trying to chase you off. Essentially siege weapons just weaken a hive and negate some of the home field advantage the aliens get.
<!--quoteo(post=1948829:date=Jul 4 2012, 04:53 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jul 4 2012, 04:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948829"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's odd because I'm thinking back to NS1 and remembering that most of the time, arcs were used to soften up a hive, then you pushed in with exos and cleared out the aliens and remaining structures, mostly because the hive rooms were huge and it's hard to get a siege cannon close enough to hit all of it.
Once the arc has taken out some things close to it, the defence of the hive room is disrupted, the door isn't blocked with chambers and they've probably lost a sensory chamber or two, and there aren't as many DCs around. Also most of the lifeforms have been either injured or killed trying to chase you off. Essentially siege weapons just weaken a hive and negate some of the home field advantage the aliens get.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is mostly how i remember it. In some cases you could siege the hive but in most cases you would disable their defenses then storm into the hive room and finish it yourself.
<!--quoteo(post=1948829:date=Jul 4 2012, 10:53 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jul 4 2012, 10:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948829"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's odd because I'm thinking back to NS1 and remembering that most of the time, arcs were used to soften up a hive, then you pushed in with exos and cleared out the aliens and remaining structures, mostly because the hive rooms were huge and it's hard to get a siege cannon close enough to hit all of it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Heavy Armor? Hardly. There were times when, if the hive was almost dead, the marines would just rush in to have a little bit of fun after the hive's fate had basically been sealed, but if you wanted to play it safe and didn't want to risk losing all your gear, you camped outside until the hive was gone. After which all the high-level lifeforms would just flee the hive-room, and you could waltz in and finish the remaining alien-structures.
<!--quoteo(post=1948834:date=Jul 4 2012, 12:22 PM:name=NurEinMensch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NurEinMensch @ Jul 4 2012, 12:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948834"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's not how I remember it at all. For most hives there were spots outside the hive room from which you could conveniently siege the whole thing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sometimes true, but the trouble was you had to get to those spots, which were generally about ten feet from the door of the hive, which meant you came under very heavy attack while trying to defend the sieges.
Either way, I've found ARCs to be plenty effective just disabling hive defences. If you need to you can give marines a medium armor upgrade so that they can assault hives easier without spending all the money on exos or something. I don't think 'sit back, wait for ARCs to kill everything' is a good mechanic.
<!--quoteo(post=1948841:date=Jul 4 2012, 11:50 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jul 4 2012, 11:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948841"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->you came under very heavy attack while trying to defend the sieges.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--quoteo(post=1948841:date=Jul 4 2012, 11:50 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jul 4 2012, 11:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948841"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->'sit back, wait for ARCs to kill everything'<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Slight discrepancy there.
The time spent fighting off the alien-team while also trying to keep the sieges going fast enough to counter-act the healing gorges were tantamount to some of the best moments in NS1. NS2's ARCs haven't even come close to reproducing that feeling with me, and I think other old-timers will corroborate.
The time spent fighting off the alien-team while also trying to keep the sieges going fast enough to counter-act the healing gorges were tantamount to some of the best moments in NS1. NS2's ARCs haven't even come close to reproducing that feeling with me, and I think other old-timers will corroborate.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> And that is because of the whole mechanic of being able to produce trains of them that can kill hives without the need of defense or buildingtime from marines in less than 20sec.
In contrast to you, I'm not saying just delete ARCs. I have stated a few points that could bring back that NS1 feeling. Just because ARCs would need longer to kill hives and this is accomplished by capping the number to CCs.
I'm no fan of the ARC escort-mission, as I've mentioned before, so yea sneaky PGs need to be re-introduced in NS2 (powerpacks? haven't been keeping up). Right now you're forced to roll those suckers from base to the hive-room, essentially eliminating any possibility to do a rush, as the entire alien-team will have been clued in before you're even half-way.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->and this is accomplished by capping the number to CCs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The issue of its strength still remains. How will you take down a hive with just 1 CC? In NS1 you drop more sieges (costs more res and constitutes more buildings to defend, nicely balances out), how will NS2 solve this with 1 ARC?
<!--quoteo(post=1948847:date=Jul 4 2012, 06:16 AM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Jul 4 2012, 06:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948847"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm no fan of the ARC escort-mission, as I've mentioned before, so yea sneaky PGs need to be re-introduced in NS2 (powerpacks? haven't been keeping up). Right now you're forced to roll those suckers from base to the hive-room, essentially eliminating any possibility to do a rush, as the entire alien-team will have been clued in before you're even half-way.
The issue of its strength still remains. How will you take down a hive with just 1 CC? In NS1 you drop more sieges (costs more res and constitutes more buildings to defend, nicely balances out), how will NS2 solve this with 1 ARC?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There have been named several ways to achieve this. The ARC could get upgrades that will increase the damage, or the damage could incrase the longer you fire with the ARC.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited July 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1948845:date=Jul 4 2012, 01:11 PM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Jul 4 2012, 01:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948845"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wasn't the phase gate the core of the siege in ns1 ?
I so, getting it back in NS2 would mean first getting pg back, and that mean changing the infestation and powernode system.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm not sure if I understand you; we already have phase gates in NS2?
The infestation bonuses and disadvantages (slower sprint, can't build) are bad for gameplay regardless of them limitin PG positioning though, and should be removed regardless.
As feared when the ARC concept was first revealed a few years ago; it doesn't add anything to gameplay, while at the same time creating a myriad of new problems.
<!--quoteo(post=1948847:date=Jul 4 2012, 02:16 PM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Jul 4 2012, 02:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948847"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm no fan of the ARC escort-mission, as I've mentioned before, so yea sneaky PGs need to be re-introduced in NS2 (powerpacks? haven't been keeping up). Right now you're forced to roll those suckers from base to the hive-room, essentially eliminating any possibility to do a rush, as the entire alien-team will have been clued in before you're even half-way.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Rushs are possible too. The Jetpack-rush or sg-rush does exist. ARCs are just another variety of gameplay. This escort-mission (and the missing siege-mission because of trains) are game mechanics that add to gameplay. I don't think cutting them out, just because they doesn't work in its current implementation is the right way.
<!--quoteo(post=1948849:date=Jul 4 2012, 12:25 PM:name=Nakorson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nakorson @ Jul 4 2012, 12:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948849"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There have been named several ways to achieve this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> None very satisfactory.
<!--quoteo(post=1948849:date=Jul 4 2012, 12:25 PM:name=Nakorson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nakorson @ Jul 4 2012, 12:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948849"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The ARC could get upgrades that will increase the damage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You could upgrade ARCs up to a point a single ARC can take down an entire hive (healing-gorges and all)? That seems overpowered on several levels, and will surely introduce a whole new bunch of problems.
<!--quoteo(post=1948849:date=Jul 4 2012, 12:25 PM:name=Nakorson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nakorson @ Jul 4 2012, 12:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948849"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->or the damage could incrase the longer you fire with the ARC.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Consecutive-shots? What if the ARC loses LoS (or the scan wears off), causing it to slip into idle-mode for a short moment, does the damage reset? This is all so very convoluted and counter-intuitive.
Again, desperately trying to get a broken feature to work, that's really the vibe I'm getting here.
I think you are formulating problems here, that doesn't exist. Everyone just thinks of this mechanic the way it works now. That the ARCs need to kill the hive really fast. But this is wrong. This is the main-problem. When the ARC needs longer to destroy the hive, the marines have to actually guard it. It will bring the same feeling like in NS1 where you have to guard your siege-base for several minutes until the hive is down. This is the whole point. If you say, the marines need a way to quickly end an long lasting game, than there is a solution too. If ARCs are capped to the number of CCs, 3 or 4 ARCs in a very-late-game will kill a hive as fast as now.
But in every other case, we have a viable ARC in mid game, that introduces the old siege-feeling. And is not blasting the hive away in seconds, like it is now.
Man, it would even be possible that you want to build an armory and PG at this siege position, because it takes a while to siege the hive. It could really be like in NS1 just without a static siege-turret but instead a moving one.
<!--quoteo(post=1948853:date=Jul 4 2012, 06:32 AM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Jul 4 2012, 06:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948853"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->None very satisfactory.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Then wait for better ideas or make one yourself.
<!--quoteo(post=1948853:date=Jul 4 2012, 06:32 AM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Jul 4 2012, 06:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948853"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You could upgrade ARCs up to a point a single ARC can take down an entire hive (healing-gorges and all)? That seems overpowered on several levels, and will surely introduce a whole new bunch of problems.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Who said that the upgrades have to be this powerful? A standard arc could stay as powerful as they are currently and could have maybe two upgrades. Which would each the strength of a another arc. So a fully upgraded arc would be as powerful as three current arc. With the damage the health and armor could increase as well.
<!--quoteo(post=1948853:date=Jul 4 2012, 06:32 AM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Jul 4 2012, 06:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948853"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Consecutive-shots? What if the ARC loses LoS (or the scan wears off), causing it to slip into idle-mode for a short moment, does the damage reset? This is all so very convoluted and counter-intuitive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well it was just a idea and there could be ways to achieve this. Like a debuff on the buildings which are being hit by the arc. With each hit they get another stack of the debuff. The debuff increases the taken damage of arcs. The stacks could wear off if the structure is not being hit by a arc for 10 seconds.
<!--quoteo(post=1948853:date=Jul 4 2012, 06:32 AM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Jul 4 2012, 06:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948853"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Again, desperately trying to get a broken feature to work, that's really the vibe I'm getting here.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I wouldn't describe it as desperate and i don't think it is completely broken, i think there are a lot of things that could be improved.
<!--quoteo(post=1948855:date=Jul 4 2012, 06:38 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Jul 4 2012, 06:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948855"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think you are formulating problems here, that doesn't exist. Everyone just thinks of this mechanic the way it works now. That the ARCs need to kill the hive really fast. But this is wrong. This is the main-problem. When the ARC needs longer to destroy the hive, the marines have to actually guard it. It will bring the same feeling like in NS1 where you have to guard your siege-base for several minutes until the hive is down. This is the whole point. If you say, the marines need a way to quickly end an long lasting game, than there is a solution too. If ARCs are capped to the number of CCs, 3 or 4 ARCs in a very-late-game will kill a hive as fast as now.
But in every other case, we have a viable ARC in mid game, that introduces the old siege-feeling. And is not blasting the hive away in seconds, like it is now.
Man, it would even be possible that you want to build an armory and PG at this siege position, because it takes a while to siege the hive. It could really be like in NS1 just without a static siege-turret but instead a moving one.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Okay, I think you lot don't understand how sieging worked in NS1. It was a scale: you had sieges on the one side, and the hive with its innate-healing + healing gorges + DCs on the other side. In order to succesfully siege a hive you had to tip the scale in your favour by building a sufficient amount of sieges, and have them fire fast enough and long enough to overtake the other side (hives\gorges\DCs). When I say a single ARC isn't strong enough, I mean it will _NEVER_ take down a hive because it cannot damage it fast enough to overtake its own healing + gorges + DCs. So rethink your idea of building an outpost at the siege-spot and sitting there for hours, because it won't do a damn thing.
<!--quoteo(post=1948850:date=Jul 4 2012, 12:28 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Jul 4 2012, 12:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948850"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not sure if I understand you; we already have phase gates in NS2?
The infestation bonuses and disadvantages (slower sprint, can't build) are bad for gameplay regardless of them limitin PG positioning though, and should be removed regardless.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Siege locations are usually covered in infestation because they are close to hives, with a power node who knows where. In theses conditions, a static siege with phase gate support a la NS1 might be a bit hard to pull off.
<!--quoteo(post=1948861:date=Jul 4 2012, 02:48 PM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Jul 4 2012, 02:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948861"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->When I say a single ARC isn't strong enough, I mean it will _NEVER_ take down a hive because it cannot damage it fast enough to overtake its own healing + gorges + DCs. So rethink your idea of building an outpost at the siege-spot and sitting there for hours, because it won't do a damn thing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You assume wrong numbers and use them to argument against the idea. It is a really simple balance task to give one ARC enough damage to out-damage the healing of 3 gorges + craigs. But not killing the hive in a few blasts.
Also it isn't necessary to recreate the siege-mechanic like in NS1 in every little aspect. It is enough to have the feeling of enduring siege-missions back. We don't need the mini-game of who builds faster siegeturrets / DCs.
<!--quoteo(post=1948864:date=Jul 4 2012, 12:58 PM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Jul 4 2012, 12:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948864"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You assume wrong numbers and use them to argument against the idea. It is a really simple balance task to give one ARC enough damage to out-damage the healing of 3 gorges + craigs. But not killing the hive in a few blasts.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Which brings us back to my original comment: you've got one very strong unit there. Now imagine 2 CCs and as such 2 ARCs, you will have an insane amount of firepower, purely because you were forced to balance its damage around taking down a hive-room. You're setting yourself up on a mountain of balance-issues. Just take away its ###### wheels and make it a building, problem solved.
<!--quoteo(post=1948864:date=Jul 4 2012, 12:58 PM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Jul 4 2012, 12:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948864"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We don't need the mini-game of who builds faster siegeturrets / DCs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> More like marines trying to hold as much sieging-ground as possible while aliens were pummeling them. Really, hasn't anyone here played NS1? You seem hellbent on misrepresenting it at every turn.
<!--quoteo(post=1948861:date=Jul 4 2012, 06:48 AM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Jul 4 2012, 06:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948861"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Okay, I think you lot don't understand how sieging worked in NS1. It was a scale: you had sieges on the one side, and the hive with its innate-healing + healing gorges + DCs on the other side. In order to succesfully siege a hive you had to tip the scale in your favour by building a sufficient amount of sieges, and have them fire fast enough and long enough to overtake the other side (hives\gorges\DCs). When I say a single ARC isn't strong enough, I mean it will _NEVER_ take down a hive because it cannot damage it fast enough to overtake its own healing + gorges + DCs. So rethink your idea of building an outpost at the siege-spot and sitting there for hours, because it won't do a damn thing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think you played to many siege maps where there was pretty much no other choice then spaming siege cannons. That's just not true that this was the only way sieges were used on normal maps. That's how some games/maps turned out, but not all! In a lot of the games i played it was often the case that the siege were used for breaking the defenses then marines would storm in to either finish the hive or kill the gorges, defense chambers that were to far away for the sieges. And just because it was it like this in ns1 doesn't mean it has to be the same in ns2. You are way to fixed on your point of view and don't even try to think about new things.
Of course there were variables, marines with GLs spamming into the hive-room, the rambo SG-JPer putting some extra bullets into the hive, but this doesn't discount the base-principle upon which sieging operates.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=Nakorson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nakorson)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And just because it was it like this in ns1 doesn't mean it has to be the same in ns2. You are way to fixed on your point of view and don't even try to think about new things.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> And this sounds almost like 'change for the sake of change'. I'd welcome any new and _improved_ gameplay, I just haven't seen it nor am I expecting to with these ARCs.
<!--quoteo(post=1948865:date=Jul 4 2012, 03:05 PM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Jul 4 2012, 03:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948865"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Which brings us back to my original comment: you've got one very strong unit there. Now imagine 2 CCs and as such 2 ARCs, you will have an insane amount of firepower, purely because you were forced to balance its damage around taking down a hive-room. You're setting yourself up on a mountain of balance-issues. Just take away its ###### wheels and make it a building, problem solved.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is just not true. It is way easier to balance the damage of 1 or 2 ARCs against balancing the damage of indefinite ARCs. And also there is no difference in balancing the damage for ARCs with wheels or ARCs without wheels. As stated before, it is possible to adjust the damage of a capped number of ARCs so that a siege will not be over in less than 30 seconds. I will not write all the details how to achieve this again. I have done this already more than once in this thread. <!--quoteo(post=1948865:date=Jul 4 2012, 03:05 PM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Jul 4 2012, 03:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948865"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->More like marines trying to hold as much sieging-ground as possible while aliens were pummeling them. Really, hasn't anyone here played NS1? You seem hellbent on misrepresenting it at every turn.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No need to getting offensive. We are just talking over two different things. You want the siege mechanic of NS1 one-to-one back. I only want the old feeling of sieging a hive room back. This is where our opinions differ. No need to imply I wouldn't know nothing about NS1. You are fixed on this one mechanic. You don't want to look further.
We don't want change for the sake of change. We are just telling you new ways that would achieve the same goal. This has nothing to do with forcing change. Just with thinking outside of the NS1 box.
Comments
Especially when you compare his healing to that of a welder, the welder still heals 2-4x as fast as the gorge heal on the CC and that is just something any marine can pick up- the gorge is a dedicated support/non combat class! :(<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This. So much this.
Marines get attacked, aliens fail, and the base is repaired in seconds.
Aliens get attacked, marines fail, and the base will still be mostly dead by the time the marines attack in 5 minutes from now.
Crags and whips all get evaporated and takes ages to rebuild. Marines don't need to rebuild all their structures every time marines attack.
Its boring, and only promotes slopped teamwork on marine team and boring repairs for the aliens. ARCs are a problem yes, but this is a bigger one.
Why should one arc be able to take out an entire hive room by itself?
One arc should be a worthwhile support option and should definitely be something the marines want to bring with them, and it should be very capable of taking out the outer defences of a hive, but clearing out a hive room should require a significant marine attack, not just one arc and a minute or so of time.
An arc is a very durable, long ranged, infinite ammo grenade launcher that fires with perfect accuracy through walls. It is valuable simply because of that fact. You should always want to bring one even if you could only bring one, it doesn't need to do all the work by itself.
I'm still looking at ARCs as basically NS1-sieges but with wheels and a non-sensical escort-mission attached to them, hence the whole idea of the ARC just being there for 'support' seems completely contradictory with its role in NS1. Entering and attacking an active hive-room as marines, you're either a fully geared marine-team, or you're just dead, period (unless it's a silent-rush, and no lifeforms are around).
I don't really want to get drawn in to validating micro-comparisons which only serve to make the game more symetrical. Happy to discuss it in another thread.
Well if you don't want to comment here and don't want to start a thread yourself though it was your idea for creating one, i will create one for this problem.
I'm still looking at ARCs as basically NS1-sieges but with wheels and a non-sensical escort-mission attached to them, hence the whole idea of the ARC just being there for 'support' seems completely contradictory with its role in NS1. Entering and attacking an active hive-room as marines, you're either a fully geared marine-team, or you're just dead, period (unless it's a silent-rush, and no lifeforms are around).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's odd because I'm thinking back to NS1 and remembering that most of the time, arcs were used to soften up a hive, then you pushed in with exos and cleared out the aliens and remaining structures, mostly because the hive rooms were huge and it's hard to get a siege cannon close enough to hit all of it.
Once the arc has taken out some things close to it, the defence of the hive room is disrupted, the door isn't blocked with chambers and they've probably lost a sensory chamber or two, and there aren't as many DCs around. Also most of the lifeforms have been either injured or killed trying to chase you off. Essentially siege weapons just weaken a hive and negate some of the home field advantage the aliens get.
Once the arc has taken out some things close to it, the defence of the hive room is disrupted, the door isn't blocked with chambers and they've probably lost a sensory chamber or two, and there aren't as many DCs around. Also most of the lifeforms have been either injured or killed trying to chase you off. Essentially siege weapons just weaken a hive and negate some of the home field advantage the aliens get.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is mostly how i remember it. In some cases you could siege the hive but in most cases you would disable their defenses then storm into the hive room and finish it yourself.
Heavy Armor? Hardly. There were times when, if the hive was almost dead, the marines would just rush in to have a little bit of fun after the hive's fate had basically been sealed, but if you wanted to play it safe and didn't want to risk losing all your gear, you camped outside until the hive was gone. After which all the high-level lifeforms would just flee the hive-room, and you could waltz in and finish the remaining alien-structures.
Sry for my Bad englisch
Sometimes true, but the trouble was you had to get to those spots, which were generally about ten feet from the door of the hive, which meant you came under very heavy attack while trying to defend the sieges.
Either way, I've found ARCs to be plenty effective just disabling hive defences. If you need to you can give marines a medium armor upgrade so that they can assault hives easier without spending all the money on exos or something. I don't think 'sit back, wait for ARCs to kill everything' is a good mechanic.
<!--quoteo(post=1948841:date=Jul 4 2012, 11:50 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jul 4 2012, 11:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948841"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->'sit back, wait for ARCs to kill everything'<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Slight discrepancy there.
The time spent fighting off the alien-team while also trying to keep the sieges going fast enough to counter-act the healing gorges were tantamount to some of the best moments in NS1. NS2's ARCs haven't even come close to reproducing that feeling with me, and I think other old-timers will corroborate.
I so, getting it back in NS2 would mean first getting pg back, and that mean changing the infestation and powernode system.
The time spent fighting off the alien-team while also trying to keep the sieges going fast enough to counter-act the healing gorges were tantamount to some of the best moments in NS1. NS2's ARCs haven't even come close to reproducing that feeling with me, and I think other old-timers will corroborate.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And that is because of the whole mechanic of being able to produce trains of them that can kill hives without the need of defense or buildingtime from marines in less than 20sec.
In contrast to you, I'm not saying just delete ARCs. I have stated a few points that could bring back that NS1 feeling. Just because ARCs would need longer to kill hives and this is accomplished by capping the number to CCs.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->and this is accomplished by capping the number to CCs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The issue of its strength still remains. How will you take down a hive with just 1 CC? In NS1 you drop more sieges (costs more res and constitutes more buildings to defend, nicely balances out), how will NS2 solve this with 1 ARC?
The issue of its strength still remains. How will you take down a hive with just 1 CC? In NS1 you drop more sieges (costs more res and constitutes more buildings to defend, nicely balances out), how will NS2 solve this with 1 ARC?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There have been named several ways to achieve this. The ARC could get upgrades that will increase the damage, or the damage could incrase the longer you fire with the ARC.
I so, getting it back in NS2 would mean first getting pg back, and that mean changing the infestation and powernode system.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not sure if I understand you; we already have phase gates in NS2?
The infestation bonuses and disadvantages (slower sprint, can't build) are bad for gameplay regardless of them limitin PG positioning though, and should be removed regardless.
As feared when the ARC concept was first revealed a few years ago; it doesn't add anything to gameplay, while at the same time creating a myriad of new problems.
Rushs are possible too. The Jetpack-rush or sg-rush does exist. ARCs are just another variety of gameplay. This escort-mission (and the missing siege-mission because of trains) are game mechanics that add to gameplay. I don't think cutting them out, just because they doesn't work in its current implementation is the right way.
... and what Nakorson said. It is possible.
None very satisfactory.
<!--quoteo(post=1948849:date=Jul 4 2012, 12:25 PM:name=Nakorson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nakorson @ Jul 4 2012, 12:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948849"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The ARC could get upgrades that will increase the damage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You could upgrade ARCs up to a point a single ARC can take down an entire hive (healing-gorges and all)? That seems overpowered on several levels, and will surely introduce a whole new bunch of problems.
<!--quoteo(post=1948849:date=Jul 4 2012, 12:25 PM:name=Nakorson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nakorson @ Jul 4 2012, 12:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948849"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->or the damage could incrase the longer you fire with the ARC.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Consecutive-shots? What if the ARC loses LoS (or the scan wears off), causing it to slip into idle-mode for a short moment, does the damage reset? This is all so very convoluted and counter-intuitive.
Again, desperately trying to get a broken feature to work, that's really the vibe I'm getting here.
But in every other case, we have a viable ARC in mid game, that introduces the old siege-feeling. And is not blasting the hive away in seconds, like it is now.
Man, it would even be possible that you want to build an armory and PG at this siege position, because it takes a while to siege the hive. It could really be like in NS1 just without a static siege-turret but instead a moving one.
Then wait for better ideas or make one yourself.
<!--quoteo(post=1948853:date=Jul 4 2012, 06:32 AM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Jul 4 2012, 06:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948853"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You could upgrade ARCs up to a point a single ARC can take down an entire hive (healing-gorges and all)? That seems overpowered on several levels, and will surely introduce a whole new bunch of problems.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Who said that the upgrades have to be this powerful? A standard arc could stay as powerful as they are currently and could have maybe two upgrades. Which would each the strength of a another arc. So a fully upgraded arc would be as powerful as three current arc. With the damage the health and armor could increase as well.
<!--quoteo(post=1948853:date=Jul 4 2012, 06:32 AM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Jul 4 2012, 06:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948853"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Consecutive-shots? What if the ARC loses LoS (or the scan wears off), causing it to slip into idle-mode for a short moment, does the damage reset? This is all so very convoluted and counter-intuitive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well it was just a idea and there could be ways to achieve this. Like a debuff on the buildings which are being hit by the arc. With each hit they get another stack of the debuff. The debuff increases the taken damage of arcs. The stacks could wear off if the structure is not being hit by a arc for 10 seconds.
<!--quoteo(post=1948853:date=Jul 4 2012, 06:32 AM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Jul 4 2012, 06:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948853"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Again, desperately trying to get a broken feature to work, that's really the vibe I'm getting here.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wouldn't describe it as desperate and i don't think it is completely broken, i think there are a lot of things that could be improved.
<!--quoteo(post=1948855:date=Jul 4 2012, 06:38 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Jul 4 2012, 06:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948855"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think you are formulating problems here, that doesn't exist. Everyone just thinks of this mechanic the way it works now. That the ARCs need to kill the hive really fast. But this is wrong. This is the main-problem. When the ARC needs longer to destroy the hive, the marines have to actually guard it. It will bring the same feeling like in NS1 where you have to guard your siege-base for several minutes until the hive is down. This is the whole point. If you say, the marines need a way to quickly end an long lasting game, than there is a solution too. If ARCs are capped to the number of CCs, 3 or 4 ARCs in a very-late-game will kill a hive as fast as now.
But in every other case, we have a viable ARC in mid game, that introduces the old siege-feeling. And is not blasting the hive away in seconds, like it is now.
Man, it would even be possible that you want to build an armory and PG at this siege position, because it takes a while to siege the hive. It could really be like in NS1 just without a static siege-turret but instead a moving one.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I fully agree to this post.
The infestation bonuses and disadvantages (slower sprint, can't build) are bad for gameplay regardless of them limitin PG positioning though, and should be removed regardless.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Siege locations are usually covered in infestation because they are close to hives, with a power node who knows where. In theses conditions, a static siege with phase gate support a la NS1 might be a bit hard to pull off.
You assume wrong numbers and use them to argument against the idea. It is a really simple balance task to give one ARC enough damage to out-damage the healing of 3 gorges + craigs. But not killing the hive in a few blasts.
Also it isn't necessary to recreate the siege-mechanic like in NS1 in every little aspect. It is enough to have the feeling of enduring siege-missions back. We don't need the mini-game of who builds faster siegeturrets / DCs.
Which brings us back to my original comment: you've got one very strong unit there. Now imagine 2 CCs and as such 2 ARCs, you will have an insane amount of firepower, purely because you were forced to balance its damage around taking down a hive-room. You're setting yourself up on a mountain of balance-issues. Just take away its ###### wheels and make it a building, problem solved.
<!--quoteo(post=1948864:date=Jul 4 2012, 12:58 PM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Jul 4 2012, 12:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948864"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We don't need the mini-game of who builds faster siegeturrets / DCs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
More like marines trying to hold as much sieging-ground as possible while aliens were pummeling them. Really, hasn't anyone here played NS1? You seem hellbent on misrepresenting it at every turn.
I think you played to many siege maps where there was pretty much no other choice then spaming siege cannons. That's just not true that this was the only way sieges were used on normal maps. That's how some games/maps turned out, but not all! In a lot of the games i played it was often the case that the siege were used for breaking the defenses then marines would storm in to either finish the hive or kill the gorges, defense chambers that were to far away for the sieges. And just because it was it like this in ns1 doesn't mean it has to be the same in ns2. You are way to fixed on your point of view and don't even try to think about new things.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=Nakorson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nakorson)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And just because it was it like this in ns1 doesn't mean it has to be the same in ns2. You are way to fixed on your point of view and don't even try to think about new things.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And this sounds almost like 'change for the sake of change'. I'd welcome any new and _improved_ gameplay, I just haven't seen it nor am I expecting to with these ARCs.
This is just not true. It is way easier to balance the damage of 1 or 2 ARCs against balancing the damage of indefinite ARCs. And also there is no difference in balancing the damage for ARCs with wheels or ARCs without wheels. As stated before, it is possible to adjust the damage of a capped number of ARCs so that a siege will not be over in less than 30 seconds. I will not write all the details how to achieve this again. I have done this already more than once in this thread.
<!--quoteo(post=1948865:date=Jul 4 2012, 03:05 PM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Jul 4 2012, 03:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948865"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->More like marines trying to hold as much sieging-ground as possible while aliens were pummeling them. Really, hasn't anyone here played NS1? You seem hellbent on misrepresenting it at every turn.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No need to getting offensive. We are just talking over two different things. You want the siege mechanic of NS1 one-to-one back. I only want the old feeling of sieging a hive room back. This is where our opinions differ. No need to imply I wouldn't know nothing about NS1. You are fixed on this one mechanic. You don't want to look further.
We don't want change for the sake of change. We are just telling you new ways that would achieve the same goal. This has nothing to do with forcing change. Just with thinking outside of the NS1 box.