Upkeep system, supply caps, hard caps, res caps and so on.. there's many options that have been suggested, I think any variation of them would probably be worth trying if it was implemented correctly. That's a pretty big change so close to release though. (aliens would need a way to recycle structures, also)
The problem they all try to solve is endgame economy/spam which isn't fun for either side and it kills server performance.
<!--quoteo(post=1948513:date=Jul 2 2012, 05:08 PM:name=rantology)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rantology @ Jul 2 2012, 05:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948513"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Upkeep system, supply caps, hard caps, res caps and so on.. there's many options that have been suggested, I think any variation of them would probably be worth trying if it was implemented correctly. That's a pretty big change so close to release though. (aliens would need a way to recycle structures, also)
The problem they all try to solve is endgame economy/spam which isn't fun for either side and it kills server performance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly. There's a reason RTS games use these things. They need to take the current model and try to add a tiering system and maybe some caps to keep certain spams down.
I understand experimenting to find something that is cool and works is great mr. devs but 2 months left and the economy/tech tree really needs to start getting settled.. it's gone from a slow income rate with energy usage that regenerates at a defined rate for certain abilities to just one res for everything that comes in super fast. Thus causing these crazy things going on with 5 minute jetpacks and Aliens with 30 second leap without an economic drawback.
Tiered tech trees are good because not only does it help players identify the build order/strategy and create depth but it also extends the time periods before certain things come out, making it more interesting and fun. Rather than seeing 5-10 tier3 god mode unlocked etc..
Hopefully these next few builds we'll see that happen.
if marines were needed to fire the things then there wouldn't (shouldn't) be an arc train the alien team can't deal with as this solution scales with server size. it would require marines to be with them instead of having "players down 1 hive while ARC's attack another". and finally there wouldn't be a cap per se, but limited to how many players are there with them to actually use them.
The more I think about it, the more I think requiring more marine interaction with arcs might be a good idea. It would solve or at least help some of the issues, and avoid the hard caps that people are wary of.
<!--quoteo(post=1948449:date=Jul 3 2012, 05:46 AM:name=rantology)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rantology @ Jul 3 2012, 05:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948449"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I wouldn't say that, seen plenty of games where it's back and forth, rines' on 2 base and aliens maybe on 3 base until the Arc trains role out and rines lolwin because of it. Arc trains appear generally when marines have completed their essential build order and have "spare" resources- when they are generally 3/3 or 3/2 and they have JPs out. If rines can hold on to ~3 RTs late game they just win with arcs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Which as that is less than half the map control seems broken, aliens can hold 3 hives and lose thanks to arcs and not their incompetence. I have played too many games where the aliens dont win in first 5 min so the game draws out for 30+ and the marines win via arc train.
Either a limit of arcs per tech point needs to be used or marines actually need to fire the arcs (sort of get into them like mini tanks and drive and fire (though comm can over-ride/eject and move arc)). As others have said the later would mean that teh arc train could be no more greater than teh marine team...and for every arc there is 1 less marine on the field. Or the marines could be forced to sit at marine spawn staring at the robo factory (like UAV pilots currently flying from the airbase) removing them from the actual combat and being able to offer support.
Arcs still need to change how easily they dominate the game, destroying hundreds in T-res in a matter of seconds, meanwhile aliens have no such game ender and often pub games end up with the marines recycling rather than continuing to fight for 20+ min whilst the aliens slowly destroy the base.
<!--quoteo(post=1948532:date=Jul 2 2012, 10:25 PM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Jul 2 2012, 10:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948532"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Which as that is less than half the map control seems broken, aliens can hold 3 hives and lose thanks to arcs and not their incompetence. I have played too many games where the aliens dont win in first 5 min so the game draws out for 30+ and the marines win via arc train.
Either a limit of arcs per tech point needs to be used or marines actually need to fire the arcs (sort of get into them like mini tanks and drive and fire (though comm can over-ride/eject and move arc)). As others have said the later would mean that teh arc train could be no more greater than teh marine team...and for every arc there is 1 less marine on the field. Or the marines could be forced to sit at marine spawn staring at the robo factory (like UAV pilots currently flying from the airbase) removing them from the actual combat and being able to offer support.
Arcs still need to change how easily they dominate the game, destroying hundreds in T-res in a matter of seconds, meanwhile aliens have no such game ender and often pub games end up with the marines recycling rather than continuing to fight for 20+ min whilst the aliens slowly destroy the base.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1948536:date=Jul 3 2012, 01:58 PM:name=Dawsum Bill)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dawsum Bill @ Jul 3 2012, 01:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948536"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><img src="http://i49.tinypic.com/34g8pjl.png" border="0" class="linked-image" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> ROFL...yup thats about what I was thinking (not so sure about their hats though perhaps something a little less thimble like)
arent you people too used to the arc clipping issues ? Any new player will notice, the devs cant possibly be thinking its good enough to pass off as a finished feature ?
Theres also the issue of space ... the maps are too cramped to have multiple arcs.
i think having only 1 arc would be more fun for both marines and aliens, you could also have tier upgrades, so lvl 0 = same as 1 arc now, lvl 1 = same as 2 arcs now, lvl 2 = same as 4 arcs now, lvl 3, same as 6 arcs now
either way, you still have the "arc train" its just now in the form of 1 arc instead of multiple arcs
<!--quoteo(post=1948439:date=Jul 2 2012, 08:03 PM:name=Khyron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Khyron @ Jul 2 2012, 08:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948439"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->While I agree, there are certainly loads of other graphical problems that need attention. I don't think it's a good idea to mix graphical glitches in game balance discussions.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't understand this. As I stated before, the balance problem is not the main point of that change idea. It only is easier to balance one ARC than to balance indefinite. So you are right. Balance aside. This should NOT be a balance discussion. I don't know why everyone is dragging this idea down to this one point. An ARC train looks ugly and destroys immersion. How would you fix that? <!--quoteo(post=1948439:date=Jul 2 2012, 08:03 PM:name=Khyron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Khyron @ Jul 2 2012, 08:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948439"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's true that more ARCs are geometrically more poweful, each additional ARC can keep firing for longer because of the HP buffer created by the earlier ones (except for AOE damage from bile bomb). But I don't think that inherently makes them overpowered. At some price point you wouldn't build them in the mid-game. Sure, in the late game with marines pushing towards victory it's possible to have such an income that marines would always spend excess res on them no matter how ineffective or expensive they are. You could argue that's a problem, that there are no other late game money sinks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Again. Forget balance for just one tiny second and see, that ARC trains are a bad and ugly game mechanic. One single ARC would be better in terms of fun, visuals and immersion. At first make the game fun THAN comes the balance. And balancing one ARC is an easy task of value tweaking, because you get rid of the multiplier aka ARC train. <!--quoteo(post=1948439:date=Jul 2 2012, 08:03 PM:name=Khyron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Khyron @ Jul 2 2012, 08:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948439"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think this point is more theoretical than practical. I don't think the current build really has this as a problem unless the alien team has been utterly negligent, in which case there's no point trying to address balanced.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> At no point in the game (no matter because of skill stack or anything) should a game mechanic be viable, that looks that ugly and destroys the immersion. If it really needs a way to end a already won game for marines, this can be achieved by ARC upgrades and that the cap is bound to CCs. But anyway, what I really meant with this point was, that it would be so much more fun when the marines would work together with the marine com to siege a hive. When there is only one ARC, it does matter more. When it has to be deployed by a marine, it will cause more teamplay. If it needs a while to kill the hive, it will bring back the old feeling of sieging in NS1. Right now ARCs are simply not fun, because you make as much as you can because this will bring the hive down faster. I don't think this is a good game mechanic in general. There should be no way to make the time that is needed for a siege to be reduced indefinitely.
<b>In all the answers I got here, I fail to see any argument against a hard cap. Beside the occasional. "Do not want." I really get the feeling, that a few didn't even read what I have written.</b>
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited July 2012
IMO the most obvious, and the easiest fix to prevent the kamikaze ARC train is to reduce ARC health in deployed mode further (to 500 ~ 1000 HP).
If ARCs are more vulnerable when they are attacking, so more effort from Marines and the Commander (Nano Shield) will be required to protect them. Extra ARCs will be useful for backup, when the attacking ARCs are killed.
The current ARC health is ridiculously high (2400 HP) for an AI unit that deals so much damage, on top of the fact that ARCs can be repaired and Nano Shielded.
Personally i love the idea of the arc, although it is strange that every building of the marines appears out of nowhere but the arc has to drive to the desired location.
I would prefer if the arc would stay, i love that it's mobile and that it is not necessary to build a new row of sieges in front of the old row and sell the old one.
@Necro Yeah ok, re-reading your first post it seems you're more concerned about the architecture of ARCs than the game balance. I guess the word overpowered caught too much of my attention.
With respect to the graphics glitch, I imagine that can be fixed without the need to repurpose ARCs in general. I believe they have played around with the clipping and stacking stuff in the past so I assume it can be fixed, it's probably just a low priority (and rightly so).
As for the rest of the stuff, I think we'll have to agree to disagree.
I don't find ARCs to be immersion breaking, either mechanically or graphically. The concept was part of the stuff that made NS1 awesome. Once 'infestation' reaches a critical level you need higher tier weapons to defeat it. There are other graphics stuff that bug me, like Onos popping out of a tiny egg. Also I like that feeling when the team comes together and pushes out of base escorting ARCs, although I do agree with what some other people have said about guarding ARCs being a somewhat boring activity. The artwork and sound effects are cool, I love the deploy mechanic.
The argument against hard caps is, from my point of view, that it's a solution to a problem that doesn't really exist.
@twiliteblue So long as the marine victory end game has marines with spare tRes, they'll build ARCs no matter how much they cost or how much they're nerfed. Conversely, making them more expensive or weaker reduces their viability in the midgame. I'm happy with ARCs balance in the mid game right now.
I think the biggest problem is an arc train can roll out to one side of the map, and the marines can go to the opposite side essentially doubling the marine army. It would be more interesting if marines had to interact with the arc to make it fire. I have some suggestions:
1. Arc movement controlled by the Comm. Once in position the arc can be armed by the Comm which deploys the arc (health armor reduced in this mode) and the arc begins charging its sonic blast. However once the charge is complete the marine needs to hit the "use" key to fire the arc (for every volley). This requires arcs to be escorted by marines in order to fire and gives aliens the choice of attacking the arcs or marines to stop an marine+arc push.
2. If the marine holds down the "use" key on the arc he enters an "operator" mode. Think about the deadspace2 doors which needed to be rewired by correctly finding the sweet-spot 3 consecutive times. Once the marine enters operator mode on the arc he must find the sweet-spot very quickly 1-3 times, if successful, the arc will fire 2x as fast (subject to balance.) While in this mode the marines weapons are holstered and field of vision is reduced requiring another marine(s) to cover him.
<!--quoteo(post=1948593:date=Jul 3 2012, 02:34 PM:name=Khyron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Khyron @ Jul 3 2012, 02:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948593"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->With respect to the graphics glitch, I imagine that can be fixed without the need to repurpose ARCs in general.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I just don't know how this will be possible. If you have 4 to 8 ARCs you got a train that moves through the map. Even if they wouldn't clipp in each other, that would look crazy. (And maybe even make them nearly impossible to navigate.)
Don't get me wrong, I'm not against the ARCs in general. I'm just against ARC trains. (Like Nakorson said.) They break the immersion and are not a fun game mechanic. Having one single ARC is a much clearer design and does not bring any problems. Right now there are many problems with this system. (like stated in the OP) But what bugs me most, is the wasted opportunity. The ARCs could bring back the feeling of NS1 sieges if there where one ARC. (or number bound to CCs)
When you say, there is no problem with the ARCs. Than you just can't imagine how fun it could be when you actually have to defend the ARC that is rolling slowly at the hive. Not clipping all the time (ARC vs ARC as ARC vs player) because it is one single entity. One entity that matters. That is a goal for the aliens to destroy not just munching on a train.
I think we are losing here an opportunity for a great gameplay mechanic, just because no one can imagine how fun it could be if they where capped in numbers to the CCs.
I'm kinda inclined to agree that one arc per CC would be a lot more enjoyable. Don't really see why you need more than one, the marines just need to escort a thing from their base to the hive. I don't think having that thing be three arcs is any different from it being one arc.
Also you could balance turrets the same way. 2 per CC but very powerful. You can't create massive overlapping coverage, and even if you bunker up, the aliens can attack the unprotected CC to shut down your other two turrets.
<!--quoteo(post=1948639:date=Jul 3 2012, 04:02 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jul 3 2012, 04:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948639"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm kinda inclined to agree that one arc per CC would be a lot more enjoyable. Don't really see why you need more than one, the marines just need to escort a thing from their base to the hive. I don't think having that thing be three arcs is any different from it being one arc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Then 1 ARC (I'm saying 1 because sieging still has to be viable with 1 CC) should be able to take down an entire hive-room (with gorges healing the hive), how do you envision that ? Seems exceedingly difficult to balance. I feel like ARCs are another one of those features whose inception was triggered by a "wouldn't it be cool if..."-brainstorm. They're not bringing anything worthwhile to the table (and in fact break a mechanic that previously functioned very well in NS1).
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1948675:date=Jul 3 2012, 08:05 PM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Jul 3 2012, 08:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948675"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->one of those features whose inception was triggered by a "wouldn't it be cool if..."-brainstorm. They're not bringing anything worthwhile to the table (and in fact break a mechanic that previously functioned very well in NS1).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This applies to a depressingly large amount of the new features.
I still think a hard cap of 2 per factory or techpoint would be the simplest solution. Instead of producing more arcs in the late game - merely add research which makes arcs more powerful/resiliant. That way there's always the possibility of an early arc sneak attack by an organised team, with a much more powerful arc strat left to end those dug in stale-mates.
<!--quoteo(post=1948675:date=Jul 3 2012, 01:05 PM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Jul 3 2012, 01:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948675"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Then 1 ARC (I'm saying 1 because sieging still has to be viable with 1 CC) should be able to take down an entire hive-room (with gorges healing the hive), how do you envision that ? Seems exceedingly difficult to balance. I feel like ARCs are another one of those features whose inception was triggered by a "wouldn't it be cool if..."-brainstorm. They're not bringing anything worthwhile to the table (and in fact break a mechanic that previously functioned very well in NS1).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The siege damage could increase over time with each hit dealing more damage than the shot before. Also gorge heal sucks currently for buildings. you have problems healing the hive against 1 single marine. And why shouldn't you take out the gorges healing the hive? The biggest advantage of the ARC is that it can fire at the hive without "losing" a player. The ARC becomes an "additional player" which shoots the hive while you can focus on the aliens players.
I think that the concept of a mobile siege gun lends itself more to a few valuable guns (3-4) rather than a group of mediocre guns combined to make a powerful weapon. I agree that the current implementation of arcs puts far too many AI units on the field. I've never seen any comm (but trolls) make for than 2-3 MACs or Drifters. Having the ability to make an infinite amount of any particular unit isn't the problem, its that having no limit but res on an AI with all the utility and destructive power on an ARC leads to only 1 mode of thought: "I need more."
ARCs are prone to spamming just because of the sheer amount of power each arc has (no player input to be able to shoot through walls and blow up a room). I really don't want a hard cap on arcs just because they are useful for defending valuable rooms by keeping alien map control further away (everything except cysts anyway). Limiting 1 per robotics factory would allow a valuable room to have a defending arc and still give a few for offense. This would also help keep the numbers down so that when they DO fix the clipping, it wont just mean an extra long arc train as it is now.
Keep the ARCs as they are, but limit based on robotics factories and we should see more defensive ARC placement and less massive ARC trains, making them more tactical than the current "SPAM TO WIN" model.
Either that or people will just fill an entire room with robotics factories and launch arcs from it like fighters off a carrier (which would be funny, but economically unviable)
<!--quoteo(post=1948684:date=Jul 3 2012, 01:38 PM:name=Nakorson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nakorson @ Jul 3 2012, 01:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948684"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also gorge heal sucks currently for buildings. you have problems healing the hive against 1 single marine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So true.. I mean I know he is not supposed to heal the hive for <i>a lot</i> but he is just so horrible at it at the moment. JP rush got our generator hive down to 15% so I went gorge to heal it back up. God that was probably the most boring 3 minutes I've ever had playing NS2.
Especially when you compare his healing to that of a welder, the welder still heals 2-4x as fast as the gorge heal on the CC and that is just something any marine can pick up- the gorge is a dedicated support/non combat class! :(
<!--quoteo(post=1948687:date=Jul 3 2012, 01:46 PM:name=rantology)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rantology @ Jul 3 2012, 01:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948687"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So true.. I mean I know he is not supposed to heal the hive for <i>a lot</i> but he is just so horrible at it at the moment. JP rush got our generator hive down to 15% so I went gorge to heal it back up. God that was probably the most boring 3 minutes I've ever had playing NS2.
Especially when you compare his healing to that of a welder, the welder still heals 2-4x as fast as the gorge heal on the CC and that is just something any marine can pick up- the gorge is a dedicated support/non combat class! :(<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
100% agree, it's so ###### boring to spend so much time healing the hive.
<!--quoteo(post=1948686:date=Jul 3 2012, 07:43 PM:name=Benson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Benson @ Jul 3 2012, 07:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948686"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think that the concept of a mobile siege gun lends itself more to a few valuable guns (3-4) rather than a group of mediocre guns combined to make a powerful weapon. I agree that the current implementation of arcs puts far too many AI units on the field. I've never seen any comm (but trolls) make for than 2-3 MACs or Drifters. Having the ability to make an infinite amount of any particular unit isn't the problem, its that having no limit but res on an AI with all the utility and destructive power on an ARC leads to only 1 mode of thought: "I need more."
ARCs are prone to spamming just because of the sheer amount of power each arc has (no player input to be able to shoot through walls and blow up a room). I really don't want a hard cap on arcs just because they are useful for defending valuable rooms by keeping alien map control further away (everything except cysts anyway). Limiting 1 per robotics factory would allow a valuable room to have a defending arc and still give a few for offense. This would also help keep the numbers down so that when they DO fix the clipping, it wont just mean an extra long arc train as it is now.
Keep the ARCs as they are, but limit based on robotics factories and we should see more defensive ARC placement and less massive ARC trains, making them more tactical than the current "SPAM TO WIN" model.
Either that or people will just fill an entire room with robotics factories and launch arcs from it like fighters off a carrier (which would be funny, but economically unviable)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So 1 ARC per robotics-factory, and that 1 ARC does incremental damage per shot, and does it still need to be deployed? Must it have a line-of-sight, or can it still shoot through walls like a siege? Holy ###### people, I thought NS2 was supposed to be more accessible a game for newcomers. If someone asked for an introduction into the NS-universe, I'd redirect them to NS1 at this point, because somehow you made NS1 look like the easier game.
Not an attack on anyone by the way, more like an exclamation as to how convaluted a mess you are turning the game into trying to balance a broken feature.
The discussion about healspray should be moved to another thread where you can start with a proper analysis. Comparing welders ability to repair buildings with that of the gorge healing the hive is negligent without considering the combat effectiveness of healspray, alien passive regen, that healspray can make buildings build faster, that healspray can heal yourself, that welders cost resources etc etc. Of course nobody wants to stand beside a hive and press heal for 3 minutes, I'd never advocate that. But just asking for a faster heal rate without regard to the consequences is not going to make for a better NS. If a hive could be quickly healed then it would nullify the marine's ability to make repeat assaults, and would ultimately mean marines need to get a kill on the first try. After several builds you'd then see the hive HP being reduced to make that easier for marines and I don't like how symetrical that's starting to sound...
<!--quoteo(post=1948712:date=Jul 3 2012, 03:29 PM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Jul 3 2012, 03:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948712"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So 1 ARC per robotics-factory, and that 1 ARC does incremental damage per shot, and does it still need to be deployed? Must it have a line-of-sight, or can it still shoot through walls like a siege? Holy ###### people, I thought NS2 was supposed to be more accessible a game for newcomers. If someone asked for an introduction into the NS-universe, I'd redirect them to NS1 at this point, because somehow you made NS1 look like the easier game.
Not an attack on anyone by the way, more like an exclamation as to how convaluted a mess you are turning the game into trying to balance a broken feature.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
While i agree that the game should as accessible as possible i don't think that a new version of the arc would be complex for players. All the things we did post here are just ideas that could improve the arc in a lot different ways. You did even name 2 things that are already part of the current arc system which aren't really intuitive on the first glance as well.
My current favorite version of the arc would be limited to 1 per vehicle factory. It would behave like the current arc, so it could shoot through walls and would still need the vision of a marine or scan. It would be deployed by the commander. It would increase the damage with each successful shot. The aliens would only have to destroy one unit if they manage to destroy it. The marines would have to protect one arc instead of a long train. It would be easier to repair for the marines. There would be enough space around the arc to fight. It would be no instant kill of a hive but if the aliens take their time with attacking the marines/arc they will lose their hive. The numbers would be a balancing thing, but i'd say that most structures should dead after the 4th shot. And a hive should take about 40-60sec to be destroyed if it attacked only by the arc and no players are damaging the hive.
<!--quoteo(post=1948734:date=Jul 3 2012, 05:21 PM:name=Khyron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Khyron @ Jul 3 2012, 05:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948734"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The discussion about healspray should be moved to another thread where you can start with a proper analysis. Comparing welders ability to repair buildings with that of the gorge healing the hive is negligent without considering the combat effectiveness of healspray, alien passive regen, that healspray can make buildings build faster, that healspray can heal yourself, that welders cost resources etc etc. Of course nobody wants to stand beside a hive and press heal for 3 minutes, I'd never advocate that. But just asking for a faster heal rate without regard to the consequences is not going to make for a better NS. If a hive could be quickly healed then it would nullify the marine's ability to make repeat assaults, and would ultimately mean marines need to get a kill on the first try. After several builds you'd then see the hive HP being reduced to make that easier for marines and I don't like how symetrical that's starting to sound...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Although you already said that we should create a seperate topic for this. But isn't it the same with the welder? It disables the option for the aliens to make "repeat assaults", they also need to destroy the CC on the first try. It's okay that welders cost resources but so does the gorge, and a marine can still fight pretty normal after buying a welder. The gorge is a support unit. Also the numbers of the heal spray could be adjusted for buildings only. It doesn't mean that becomes to powerful while healing players.
Comments
The problem they all try to solve is endgame economy/spam which isn't fun for either side and it kills server performance.
The problem they all try to solve is endgame economy/spam which isn't fun for either side and it kills server performance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly. There's a reason RTS games use these things. They need to take the current model and try to add a tiering system and maybe some caps to keep certain spams down.
I understand experimenting to find something that is cool and works is great mr. devs but 2 months left and the economy/tech tree really needs to start getting settled.. it's gone from a slow income rate with energy usage that regenerates at a defined rate for certain abilities to just one res for everything that comes in super fast. Thus causing these crazy things going on with 5 minute jetpacks and Aliens with 30 second leap without an economic drawback.
Tiered tech trees are good because not only does it help players identify the build order/strategy and create depth but it also extends the time periods before certain things come out, making it more interesting and fun. Rather than seeing 5-10 tier3 god mode unlocked etc..
Hopefully these next few builds we'll see that happen.
Which as that is less than half the map control seems broken, aliens can hold 3 hives and lose thanks to arcs and not their incompetence.
I have played too many games where the aliens dont win in first 5 min so the game draws out for 30+ and the marines win via arc train.
Either a limit of arcs per tech point needs to be used or marines actually need to fire the arcs (sort of get into them like mini tanks and drive and fire (though comm can over-ride/eject and move arc)). As others have said the later would mean that teh arc train could be no more greater than teh marine team...and for every arc there is 1 less marine on the field.
Or the marines could be forced to sit at marine spawn staring at the robo factory (like UAV pilots currently flying from the airbase) removing them from the actual combat and being able to offer support.
Arcs still need to change how easily they dominate the game, destroying hundreds in T-res in a matter of seconds, meanwhile aliens have no such game ender and often pub games end up with the marines recycling rather than continuing to fight for 20+ min whilst the aliens slowly destroy the base.
I have played too many games where the aliens dont win in first 5 min so the game draws out for 30+ and the marines win via arc train.
Either a limit of arcs per tech point needs to be used or marines actually need to fire the arcs (sort of get into them like mini tanks and drive and fire (though comm can over-ride/eject and move arc)). As others have said the later would mean that teh arc train could be no more greater than teh marine team...and for every arc there is 1 less marine on the field.
Or the marines could be forced to sit at marine spawn staring at the robo factory (like UAV pilots currently flying from the airbase) removing them from the actual combat and being able to offer support.
Arcs still need to change how easily they dominate the game, destroying hundreds in T-res in a matter of seconds, meanwhile aliens have no such game ender and often pub games end up with the marines recycling rather than continuing to fight for 20+ min whilst the aliens slowly destroy the base.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<img src="http://i49.tinypic.com/34g8pjl.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
ROFL...yup thats about what I was thinking (not so sure about their hats though perhaps something a little less thimble like)
arent you people too used to the arc clipping issues ? Any new player will notice, the devs cant possibly be thinking its good enough to pass off as a finished feature ?
Theres also the issue of space ... the maps are too cramped to have multiple arcs.
i think having only 1 arc would be more fun for both marines and aliens, you could also have tier upgrades, so lvl 0 = same as 1 arc now, lvl 1 = same as 2 arcs now, lvl 2 = same as 4 arcs now, lvl 3, same as 6 arcs now
either way, you still have the "arc train" its just now in the form of 1 arc instead of multiple arcs
I don't understand this. As I stated before, the balance problem is not the main point of that change idea. It only is easier to balance one ARC than to balance indefinite. So you are right. Balance aside. This should NOT be a balance discussion. I don't know why everyone is dragging this idea down to this one point. An ARC train looks ugly and destroys immersion. How would you fix that?
<!--quoteo(post=1948439:date=Jul 2 2012, 08:03 PM:name=Khyron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Khyron @ Jul 2 2012, 08:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948439"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's true that more ARCs are geometrically more poweful, each additional ARC can keep firing for longer because of the HP buffer created by the earlier ones (except for AOE damage from bile bomb). But I don't think that inherently makes them overpowered. At some price point you wouldn't build them in the mid-game. Sure, in the late game with marines pushing towards victory it's possible to have such an income that marines would always spend excess res on them no matter how ineffective or expensive they are. You could argue that's a problem, that there are no other late game money sinks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again. Forget balance for just one tiny second and see, that ARC trains are a bad and ugly game mechanic. One single ARC would be better in terms of fun, visuals and immersion. At first make the game fun THAN comes the balance. And balancing one ARC is an easy task of value tweaking, because you get rid of the multiplier aka ARC train.
<!--quoteo(post=1948439:date=Jul 2 2012, 08:03 PM:name=Khyron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Khyron @ Jul 2 2012, 08:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948439"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think this point is more theoretical than practical. I don't think the current build really has this as a problem unless the alien team has been utterly negligent, in which case there's no point trying to address balanced.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
At no point in the game (no matter because of skill stack or anything) should a game mechanic be viable, that looks that ugly and destroys the immersion. If it really needs a way to end a already won game for marines, this can be achieved by ARC upgrades and that the cap is bound to CCs.
But anyway, what I really meant with this point was, that it would be so much more fun when the marines would work together with the marine com to siege a hive. When there is only one ARC, it does matter more. When it has to be deployed by a marine, it will cause more teamplay. If it needs a while to kill the hive, it will bring back the old feeling of sieging in NS1. Right now ARCs are simply not fun, because you make as much as you can because this will bring the hive down faster. I don't think this is a good game mechanic in general. There should be no way to make the time that is needed for a siege to be reduced indefinitely.
<b>In all the answers I got here, I fail to see any argument against a hard cap. Beside the occasional. "Do not want." I really get the feeling, that a few didn't even read what I have written.</b>
If ARCs are more vulnerable when they are attacking, so more effort from Marines and the Commander (Nano Shield) will be required to protect them. Extra ARCs will be useful for backup, when the attacking ARCs are killed.
The current ARC health is ridiculously high (2400 HP) for an AI unit that deals so much damage, on top of the fact that ARCs can be repaired and Nano Shielded.
Personally i love the idea of the arc, although it is strange that every building of the marines appears out of nowhere but the arc has to drive to the desired location.
I would prefer if the arc would stay, i love that it's mobile and that it is not necessary to build a new row of sieges in front of the old row and sell the old one.
Yeah ok, re-reading your first post it seems you're more concerned about the architecture of ARCs than the game balance. I guess the word overpowered caught too much of my attention.
With respect to the graphics glitch, I imagine that can be fixed without the need to repurpose ARCs in general. I believe they have played around with the clipping and stacking stuff in the past so I assume it can be fixed, it's probably just a low priority (and rightly so).
As for the rest of the stuff, I think we'll have to agree to disagree.
I don't find ARCs to be immersion breaking, either mechanically or graphically. The concept was part of the stuff that made NS1 awesome. Once 'infestation' reaches a critical level you need higher tier weapons to defeat it. There are other graphics stuff that bug me, like Onos popping out of a tiny egg. Also I like that feeling when the team comes together and pushes out of base escorting ARCs, although I do agree with what some other people have said about guarding ARCs being a somewhat boring activity. The artwork and sound effects are cool, I love the deploy mechanic.
The argument against hard caps is, from my point of view, that it's a solution to a problem that doesn't really exist.
@twiliteblue
So long as the marine victory end game has marines with spare tRes, they'll build ARCs no matter how much they cost or how much they're nerfed. Conversely, making them more expensive or weaker reduces their viability in the midgame. I'm happy with ARCs balance in the mid game right now.
1. Arc movement controlled by the Comm. Once in position the arc can be armed by the Comm which deploys the arc (health armor reduced in this mode) and the arc begins charging its sonic blast. However once the charge is complete the marine needs to hit the "use" key to fire the arc (for every volley). This requires arcs to be escorted by marines in order to fire and gives aliens the choice of attacking the arcs or marines to stop an marine+arc push.
2. If the marine holds down the "use" key on the arc he enters an "operator" mode. Think about the deadspace2 doors which needed to be rewired by correctly finding the sweet-spot 3 consecutive times. Once the marine enters operator mode on the arc he must find the sweet-spot very quickly 1-3 times, if successful, the arc will fire 2x as fast (subject to balance.) While in this mode the marines weapons are holstered and field of vision is reduced requiring another marine(s) to cover him.
I just don't know how this will be possible. If you have 4 to 8 ARCs you got a train that moves through the map. Even if they wouldn't clipp in each other, that would look crazy. (And maybe even make them nearly impossible to navigate.)
Don't get me wrong, I'm not against the ARCs in general. I'm just against ARC trains. (Like Nakorson said.) They break the immersion and are not a fun game mechanic. Having one single ARC is a much clearer design and does not bring any problems. Right now there are many problems with this system. (like stated in the OP) But what bugs me most, is the wasted opportunity. The ARCs could bring back the feeling of NS1 sieges if there where one ARC. (or number bound to CCs)
When you say, there is no problem with the ARCs. Than you just can't imagine how fun it could be when you actually have to defend the ARC that is rolling slowly at the hive. Not clipping all the time (ARC vs ARC as ARC vs player) because it is one single entity. One entity that matters. That is a goal for the aliens to destroy not just munching on a train.
I think we are losing here an opportunity for a great gameplay mechanic, just because no one can imagine how fun it could be if they where capped in numbers to the CCs.
Also you could balance turrets the same way. 2 per CC but very powerful. You can't create massive overlapping coverage, and even if you bunker up, the aliens can attack the unprotected CC to shut down your other two turrets.
Then 1 ARC (I'm saying 1 because sieging still has to be viable with 1 CC) should be able to take down an entire hive-room (with gorges healing the hive), how do you envision that ? Seems exceedingly difficult to balance. I feel like ARCs are another one of those features whose inception was triggered by a "wouldn't it be cool if..."-brainstorm. They're not bringing anything worthwhile to the table (and in fact break a mechanic that previously functioned very well in NS1).
This applies to a depressingly large amount of the new features.
The siege damage could increase over time with each hit dealing more damage than the shot before. Also gorge heal sucks currently for buildings. you have problems healing the hive against 1 single marine. And why shouldn't you take out the gorges healing the hive? The biggest advantage of the ARC is that it can fire at the hive without "losing" a player. The ARC becomes an "additional player" which shoots the hive while you can focus on the aliens players.
ARCs are prone to spamming just because of the sheer amount of power each arc has (no player input to be able to shoot through walls and blow up a room). I really don't want a hard cap on arcs just because they are useful for defending valuable rooms by keeping alien map control further away (everything except cysts anyway). Limiting 1 per robotics factory would allow a valuable room to have a defending arc and still give a few for offense. This would also help keep the numbers down so that when they DO fix the clipping, it wont just mean an extra long arc train as it is now.
Keep the ARCs as they are, but limit based on robotics factories and we should see more defensive ARC placement and less massive ARC trains, making them more tactical than the current "SPAM TO WIN" model.
Either that or people will just fill an entire room with robotics factories and launch arcs from it like fighters off a carrier (which would be funny, but economically unviable)
So true.. I mean I know he is not supposed to heal the hive for <i>a lot</i> but he is just so horrible at it at the moment. JP rush got our generator hive down to 15% so I went gorge to heal it back up. God that was probably the most boring 3 minutes I've ever had playing NS2.
Especially when you compare his healing to that of a welder, the welder still heals 2-4x as fast as the gorge heal on the CC and that is just something any marine can pick up- the gorge is a dedicated support/non combat class! :(
Especially when you compare his healing to that of a welder, the welder still heals 2-4x as fast as the gorge heal on the CC and that is just something any marine can pick up- the gorge is a dedicated support/non combat class! :(<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
100% agree, it's so ###### boring to spend so much time healing the hive.
ARCs are prone to spamming just because of the sheer amount of power each arc has (no player input to be able to shoot through walls and blow up a room). I really don't want a hard cap on arcs just because they are useful for defending valuable rooms by keeping alien map control further away (everything except cysts anyway). Limiting 1 per robotics factory would allow a valuable room to have a defending arc and still give a few for offense. This would also help keep the numbers down so that when they DO fix the clipping, it wont just mean an extra long arc train as it is now.
Keep the ARCs as they are, but limit based on robotics factories and we should see more defensive ARC placement and less massive ARC trains, making them more tactical than the current "SPAM TO WIN" model.
Either that or people will just fill an entire room with robotics factories and launch arcs from it like fighters off a carrier (which would be funny, but economically unviable)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So 1 ARC per robotics-factory, and that 1 ARC does incremental damage per shot, and does it still need to be deployed? Must it have a line-of-sight, or can it still shoot through walls like a siege? Holy ###### people, I thought NS2 was supposed to be more accessible a game for newcomers. If someone asked for an introduction into the NS-universe, I'd redirect them to NS1 at this point, because somehow you made NS1 look like the easier game.
Not an attack on anyone by the way, more like an exclamation as to how convaluted a mess you are turning the game into trying to balance a broken feature.
Not an attack on anyone by the way, more like an exclamation as to how convaluted a mess you are turning the game into trying to balance a broken feature.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
While i agree that the game should as accessible as possible i don't think that a new version of the arc would be complex for players. All the things we did post here are just ideas that could improve the arc in a lot different ways. You did even name 2 things that are already part of the current arc system which aren't really intuitive on the first glance as well.
My current favorite version of the arc would be limited to 1 per vehicle factory. It would behave like the current arc, so it could shoot through walls and would still need the vision of a marine or scan. It would be deployed by the commander. It would increase the damage with each successful shot.
The aliens would only have to destroy one unit if they manage to destroy it. The marines would have to protect one arc instead of a long train. It would be easier to repair for the marines. There would be enough space around the arc to fight. It would be no instant kill of a hive but if the aliens take their time with attacking the marines/arc they will lose their hive.
The numbers would be a balancing thing, but i'd say that most structures should dead after the 4th shot. And a hive should take about 40-60sec to be destroyed if it attacked only by the arc and no players are damaging the hive.
Although you already said that we should create a seperate topic for this. But isn't it the same with the welder? It disables the option for the aliens to make "repeat assaults", they also need to destroy the CC on the first try.
It's okay that welders cost resources but so does the gorge, and a marine can still fight pretty normal after buying a welder. The gorge is a support unit. Also the numbers of the heal spray could be adjusted for buildings only. It doesn't mean that becomes to powerful while healing players.