Have YOU even played this build? 4 to 5 of those kills were from one shotting skulks that is apparently "impossible" with the spread partial hits even with a w3. I also went ahead and two shot lerks as well. This ###### is laughable. Oh man, aiming is so damn hard, lemme tell you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I really dont want to get into a back and forth arguement where you keep bringing up terrible arguements that dilute all the good points in this thread. <b>With all respect</b>, you're <b>probably</b> a bad skulk since you don't seem to understand sg vs skulk dynamics, and you form judgements from playing against bad skulks on a clearly stacked team. I only needed to look at the screenshot to see the latter.
<!--QuoteBegin-hakenspit+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Sure you can say I am sh1t (I wont disagree) but it should take more than 1 shot to kill a cara skulk or lerk, sure the marines may have had w2 or even w3 but I had carapace..the one and only health/armor buff the aliens get all game (aside from higher lifeforms). Looks like as others have said I will simply save up for an onos (2 lerks is almost 1 onos anyway..)
What amazes me is the hooha that came about with onos devour because it was a 1 ###### killer yet when the marines have a shot gun that does that all of a sudden there are no issues with 1 team having such a powerful weapon.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wont say you're ###### and i never intended to say this of anyone. Apologies if it came across that way. Ofcourse good sgers will typically kill alot of skulks and this extends all the way up the skill curve. My point all along was that its kinda silly to say one shotting carapace is 'taking skill and throwing it under a bus' or however misternubs put it. It was a totally vapid and emotionally charged statement that didn't add to the discussion.
Assymetry is hard to balance in terms of looking at parity balance. This is the case when you bring weapon upgrades and weapon costs into the picture. Should 20 res shotguns have an advantage against 0 res skulks with leap/celerity/cara etc? Should twitch aim and precision be rewarded? All i am saying is skulks have mobility potential when played smartly, enough to counter sg's to a reasonable extent imo. I'm also not saying cara is useless. It protects against partial hits which usually happen when you strafe jump etc.
To briefly address the point about devour. Yes, people made a hoohah because it was a one shot kill. The bigger hoohah imo however was that it was boring and removed control of player characters. You also have to understand that devour one shotted <b>everything</b>. Sg's do not do this.
<!--quoteo(post=1944399:date=Jun 18 2012, 02:47 AM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Jun 18 2012, 02:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1944399"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I really dont want to get into a back and forth arguement where you keep bringing up terrible arguements that dilute all the good points in this thread. <b>With all respect</b>, you're <b>probably</b> a bad skulk since you don't seem to understand sg vs skulk dynamics, and you form judgements from playing against bad skulks on a clearly stacked team. I only needed to look at the screenshot to see the latter.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This reads "I got called out, it is possible to one shot a skulk."
Please, do keep calling me a bad skulk. Just shows what type of person you are too.
Shotgun is probably in the best state its ever been so far. I think 210 basically nailed it perfectly. If anything it could use a 5 pres increase to its cost.
With the increased effectiveness of it, I think the fade needs some more hp though.
Have YOU even played this build? 4 to 5 of those kills were from one shotting skulks that is apparently "impossible" with the spread partial hits even with a w3. I also went ahead and two shot lerks as well. This ###### is laughable. Oh man, aiming is so damn hard, lemme tell you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Im pretty sure he didnt say one shotting skulks is impossible in this build. Also, trying to base your argument on killing skulks that go 3-15 on public server is pretty weak. With that logic the skulk is also op because people can go 30-5 vs jp/sg marines with it on public.
I personally think the shotgun is finally pretty damn solid. Most of the problems with it arise from slow alien movement especially for the lerk, and the blink mechanics.
<!--quoteo(post=1944403:date=Jun 18 2012, 02:57 AM:name=elmo9000)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elmo9000 @ Jun 18 2012, 02:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1944403"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Im pretty sure he didnt say one shotting skulks is impossible in this build. Also, trying to base your argument on killing skulks that go 3-15 on public server is pretty weak. With that logic the skulk is also op because people can go 30-5 vs jp/sg marines with it on public.
I personally think the shotgun is finally pretty damn solid. Most of the problems with it arise from slow alien movement especially for the lerk, and the blink mechanics.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then saying "do not one shot carapace skulks even with w3" is poor choice of wording.
The point was that shotguns can indeed one shot a skulk, regardless of the skill of a skulk player. Pointing out their score means squat. The matter of the fact is that shotguns can and do one shot skulks. Lemme repeat, regardless of player skill, shot guns can one shot skulks. Again, regardless of their skill. Lets do this one more time. Pointing out their score is trying to distract people away from the fact that the shotgun one shot skulks. Now reread. But go ahead and keep calling out the player's scores, if I hadn't at least given some type of "proof" some idiot is just going to say "screenshots or it didn't happen".
Shotguns are in a damn good solid. The problem why they're continuously good is because Alien scaling is abysmal. That is, that have zero scaling. You continue to one shot skulks while it takes more and more bites to kill you. Pretty retarded sounding for a game that is suppose to be balanced this close to release.
<!--quoteo(post=1944404:date=Jun 18 2012, 10:16 AM:name=MisterNubs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MisterNubs @ Jun 18 2012, 10:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1944404"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Then saying "do not one shot carapace skulks even with w3" is poor choice of wording.
The point was that shotguns can indeed one shot a skulk, regardless of the skill of a skulk player. Pointing out their score means squat. The matter of the fact is that shotguns can and do one shot skulks. Lemme repeat, regardless of player skill, shot guns can one shot skulks. Again, regardless of their skill. Lets do this one more time. Pointing out their score is trying to distract people away from the fact that the shotgun one shot skulks. Now reread. But go ahead and keep calling out the player's scores, if I hadn't at least given some type of "proof" some idiot is just going to say "screenshots or it didn't happen".
Shotguns are in a damn good solid. The problem why they're continuously good is because Alien scaling is abysmal. That is, that have zero scaling. You continue to one shot skulks while it takes more and more bites to kill you. Pretty retarded sounding for a game that is suppose to be balanced this close to release.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Looks like you forgot to read the two words before that part of the sentence.
I believe the shotgun is fine as it is compared to the other marine weapons. Maybe scaling alien armor with hives or something like that would help. I don't mind that skulks get oneshotted early game, when buying a shotgun should be a decision. The OP'ness of SG seems also to come from the amount of res being available, and that lerk was changed. I believe more plays will show this to be a better balance than 209.
<!--quoteo(post=1944404:date=Jun 18 2012, 05:16 PM:name=MisterNubs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MisterNubs @ Jun 18 2012, 05:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1944404"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Then saying "do not one shot carapace skulks even with w3" is poor choice of wording.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Last bloody post from me. Yuk. I said "PARTIAL HITS do not one shot carapace skulks even with w3". DWould you like me to go step by step through the maths with you?
Cara skulk = 130hp SG damage = 170 * 1.3 = 221 130/221 = 59% Assuming a partial hit is anything greater than 40% pellet misses, yes partial hits do not one shot cara skulks.
When we take it into the real world, we might need to add more realistic assumptions. Even with perfectly accurate shots, depending on range, position of skulk etc ofcourse i think it reasonable to estimate only 80-90% of your pellets will actually hit thus, SG damage = 221*0.8 = 177 130/199 = 73%. Assuming a partial hit is anything greater than 27% pellets missed, yes partial hits do not one shot cara skulks from 30-50% missed pellets.
<!--quoteo(post=1944399:date=Jun 18 2012, 05:47 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Jun 18 2012, 05:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1944399"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I wont say you're ###### and i never intended to say this of anyone. Apologies if it came across that way. Ofcourse good sgers will typically kill alot of skulks and this extends all the way up the skill curve.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You dont need to I will admit I am not the worlds best player ;) The issues though is wider than my lack of skills, I am used to dying..do it a lot. But late in game when I have carapace I find getting 1 shotted as a skulk or lerk frustrating.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My point all along was that its kinda silly to say one shotting carapace is 'taking skill and throwing it under a bus' or however misternubs put it. It was a totally vapid and emotionally charged statement that didn't add to the discussion.
Assymetry is hard to balance in terms of looking at parity balance. This is the case when you bring weapon upgrades and weapon costs into the picture. Should 20 res shotguns have an advantage against 0 res skulks with leap/celerity/cara etc? Should twitch aim and precision be rewarded? All i am saying is skulks have mobility potential when played smartly, enough to counter sg's to a reasonable extent imo. I'm also not saying cara is useless. It protects against partial hits which usually happen when you strafe jump etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Carapace in ns1 was tailored to the number of chambers and had a level of scalability, now we simply have 1 flat cara boost so 2 types of each alien (weak and not weak). Marines get 3 weapons upgrades which mean their weapons of ever increasing levels of damage and 4 different marine weapons (w0, w1, w2, w3). Shotguns are devastating straight of the bat, then add in the damage buffs from the upgrades you have a weapon that kills skulks and LERKS (which dont cost 0...they cost 30) in 1 shot.
Whilst skulks are agile in close...lerks are not and with spores being bombed, bite being default attack it is forced to be able to tango with the SG...or sit back and watch from the side lines...perhaps taunting the marines as you dont want to risk flying through 3 o4 4 SG marines. My lerking is no better than my skulking and I accept a lot of deaths when I flee having taken a couple of hits or part of a clip of a LMG. I find it tough to be knocked out cold with 1 shot from a SG.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To briefly address the point about devour. Yes, people made a hoohah because it was a one shot kill. The bigger hoohah imo however was that it was boring and removed control of player characters. You also have to understand that devour one shotted <b>everything</b>. Sg's do not do this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I used to like calling out for my marine buddies to shoot down the greedy onos
I'm not sure GetSpread(bulletNum) is used anymore, because of the fixed pattern (kSpreadVectors).
*
The shotgun has many variable to tweak, you can change it in many directions, getting different results. The problem is we are not very clear in which direction we want to go, how many shots it should take to kill this and that, and at which range.
I like the current shotgun much better, I think it should one shot non-cara skulks, but only at close distance, so you need to wait a bit to shoot.
It shouldn't one shot lerks however (specially with the current bite/spores), I don't know if it's the case now.
It would be nice to have an excel sheet that compute the number of shots you need for each lifeform.
<!--quoteo(post=1944321:date=Jun 18 2012, 04:49 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jun 18 2012, 04:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1944321"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yet Its not exactly a wide spread... at roughly 9 degrees from the center of the screen. I mean, ok, in a literal sense what you say is true - it doesnt do well long distance. But to imply this is a <i>"close range" weapon is not accurate</i>, currently, other than the fact that you have better odds at killing a skulk in one shot - which has little to do with it's <i>terminating </i>spread when speaking about a skulk at bite range. (thats originating spread mostly influencing that.) What dictates whether a weapon is a "close range" weapon is how well it does comparatively to any range other than "close range".. <i>and as seen below it still does just fine at medium. </i> IMO, this creates a no brainer to always pick the shotgun, a cheap weapon without much of a tradeoff for picking. Which is just another way of saying not performing it's role correctly. The default, forced weapon, the lmg, should be the only "all around" weapon. Similar to the "all around" usefulness of the skulk... for example: what if there were no tradeoff/downside to picking a lerk other than the pres investment? You'd hear ppl screaming.. but when it happens to the shotgun, everyone is just happy that they can shoot and hit successfully - while those on the other end of the barrel just chalk it up to the status quo and shrug. (despite the lerk never being able to one shot a marine?)
To me, its very <b>odd </b>what some accept as appropriate / acceptable, as I think the rewarding sensation of hitting what you aim at overrides one's ability to look at the big picture, and thus influences them heavily.
I expect this to change once the polish phase comes into play and performance is high - where the novelty of hitting what you aim at diminishes as a new experience.
^THIS! I absolutely agree. As fun it is to have such a powerful weapon, it made skulk-play really boring. And come on, it is really easy to aim with the sg. It's not like you have to train this actually. And this will become even more bad with higher FPS.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited June 2012
The effective range of the shotgun is a bit excessive in this build. This could either be because the spread is too tight or because they removed damage falloff. In either case, widening the spread a little bit more should fix it.
The problem last build was that the spread was enormous at almost point blank range, not that the spread was enormous at mid-range. Basically, the spread should be tight at close range, wide at mid range and enormous at long range.
To the "one-shot" complaints: If the shotgun can't one-shot skulks at close range, there won't be much of a point in buying it at all.
I also think that either pres harvesting should be slowed down or gun cost should increase. There are too many advanced weapons in the field at any one time right now.
<!--quoteo(post=1944484:date=Jun 18 2012, 07:29 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Jun 18 2012, 07:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1944484"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The effective range of the shotgun is a bit excessive in this build. This could either be because the spread is too tight or because they removed damage falloff. In either case, widening the spread a little bit more should fix it.
The problem last build was that the spread was enormous at almost point blank range, not that the spread was enormous at mid-range. Basically, the spread should be tight at close range, wide at mid range and enormous at long range.
To the "one-shot" complaints: If the shotgun can't one-shot skulks at close range, there won't be much of a point in buying it at all.
I also think that either pres harvesting should be slowed down or gun cost should increase. There are too many advanced weapons in the field at any one time right now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fullheartedly agree. I think the outer angle on the spread needs to be increased by 5-7 degrees, the above linked screenshots definitely show the shotgun is like damn laser beam.
Res gain as a whole needs to be slowed down, but especially pres. The early game needs to be extended and this also has the wonderful side effect of creating more instances of needing lower life forms or cheaper weapons (mines, welders shotties) earlier which staggers and calms down the tech explosions later in the game. I really hope the starting pres is dropped to 15 as well as a side note.
i'm impressed by the overall effectiveness of this thread, however, i do hope charlie reads this and realises that 1-20 people disagree's with the current shotgun.
However, i do agree that it needs to be less "snipery" then it currently is, i think the spread after maybe 2 meters needs to be increased to allow less sniperage.
however, i totally agree, what is the point in having a sg that doesnt one hit a skulk? After all wasnt the ns1 shotguns description something along the lines of "the bane of all skulks" ?
-
correct me if im wrong but i shouldnt be punished because i put in multiple hours of ns2 a week?
<!--quoteo(post=1944192:date=Jun 17 2012, 03:03 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Jun 17 2012, 03:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1944192"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The decision you're making is do I want this power NOW or in 2 minutes when we hive push? Do I want this shotgun to give me a better chance at killing an RT or do I want to save it for fades? You're not choosing LMG vs Shotgun, you're choosing shotgun now vs shotgun later. Accompanied by forced decisions on welders, mines, and eventually jetpacks can make that decision about shotguns even more complex.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know but it would be nice if the SG actually had a weakness other than its price when compared to lmg
Shotgun is less effective at range (or it should be), however you must also remember this game is part RTS... Do jetpacks have a weakness other than they cost pres? Does the onos? Fade? Now while some of the lifeforms may not be as good at certain roles, most people would arguably always choose the higher tiered lifeform over a skulk (cept maybe lerk in 210). This progression of tech and strength is needed in a RTS/FPS, otherwise your only really left with a class based shooter...
<!--quoteo(post=1944368:date=Jun 18 2012, 12:11 AM:name=Grissi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Grissi @ Jun 18 2012, 12:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1944368"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Shotgun is fine, smart plays are enough to deal with them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If by "smart plays" you mean sneaky skulks, I agree. I wouldn't cry foul on skulks or gorges going down too easily, but fades and lerks just feel like a waste of res in this build once shotties are out. Fades and skulks are both melee only, but fades are bigger targets and cost 50 res when you could just save 25 more res for Onos.
Seriously, say shotties are out, vortex isn't researched yet, and you're sitting on 50 res. Who here actually thinks going fade is a better tactical choice than saving for Onos? Even with vortex, I'm not sure it'd be sensible.
I've seen lerks do okay. Spikes does feel painfully inaccurate outside of shotgun range however, which is annoying just in general, but doubly so with shotguns. I'm a terrible fade so I can't really comment about them.
I dare say that shotguns are a bit too effective at countering the higher lifeforms.
If it only takes 2-3 shotgun shells to kill a fade. That is waaaay too effective. This means that a marine can hold his own against a fade quite easily if he has some armour upgrades.
The shotgun also inflicts too much damage versus structures. I personally believe that flamethrowers should be the fastest way to kill a structure.
The shotgun is currently a fade that can destroy structures as fast as a lerk with spikes, and can kill kharaa as well as if not better, Than a fade can kill a marine.
I don't mind it DECIMATING skulks. Or even being a threat to lerk/gorge. But a single shotgunner shouldn't make a fade afraid of going in for a swipe
And don't try to use the "It's terrible at range" excuse. Because a pistol on alt fire will pick apart foes from a distance and if they get close the shotgun hits like a freight train..
Solutions: Make it take 1-2 more shells to kill a fade, and reduce the damage it does to structures. This turns the shotgun into a anti-infantry based weapon, While enabling groups of marines to still quickly take down fades who aren't playing very smart.
<!--quoteo(post=1944775:date=Jun 19 2012, 05:08 PM:name=Krovakon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Krovakon @ Jun 19 2012, 05:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1944775"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If it only takes 2-3 shotgun shells to kill a fade. That is waaaay too effective. This means that a marine can hold his own against a fade quite easily if he has some armour upgrades.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> In a world without nanoshield spam, once UWE finally removes the swipe delay on blink people will realise that sg vs fade is fine. Its also going to fix jp sg vs fade. It only seems like the fade needs to be able to tank more shells because of an artificial, buggy feeling limitation.
Shadowstep > blink for killing marines funnily enough. You only blink when you're stuck in a hole, want to get in a vent, or as an escape mechanism.
<!--quoteo(post=1944751:date=Jun 19 2012, 12:39 AM:name=serpico)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (serpico @ Jun 19 2012, 12:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1944751"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Seriously, say shotties are out, vortex isn't researched yet, and you're sitting on 50 res. Who here actually thinks going fade is a better tactical choice than saving for Onos? Even with vortex, I'm not sure it'd be sensible.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sup, I do. So will most every other good fade in NS2. The problem people have with fades against a decent shotgun is that they have to actually blink. Most people simply don't know how to blink and attack. They just blink in, face tank damage, and swipe a marine down then run away to heal. THAT IS NOT HOW YOU PLAY FADE.
These face-tanking fades are now getting owned by the shotgun because the shotgun once again deals damage. That's how it should be. If the shotgun is hitting most of his shots (aka a good player), and the fade is a good player (aka blinking and attacking) the fade still wins nearly every 1v1.
<!--quoteo(post=1944775:date=Jun 19 2012, 03:08 AM:name=Krovakon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Krovakon @ Jun 19 2012, 03:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1944775"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I dare say that shotguns are a bit too effective at countering the higher lifeforms.
If it only takes 2-3 shotgun shells to kill a fade. That is waaaay too effective. This means that a marine can hold his own against a fade quite easily if he has some armour upgrades.
The shotgun also inflicts too much damage versus structures. I personally believe that flamethrowers should be the fastest way to kill a structure.
The shotgun is currently a fade that can destroy structures as fast as a lerk with spikes, and can kill kharaa as well as if not better, Than a fade can kill a marine.
I don't mind it DECIMATING skulks. Or even being a threat to lerk/gorge. But a single shotgunner shouldn't make a fade afraid of going in for a swipe
And don't try to use the "It's terrible at range" excuse. Because a pistol on alt fire will pick apart foes from a distance and if they get close the shotgun hits like a freight train..
Solutions: Make it take 1-2 more shells to kill a fade, and reduce the damage it does to structures. This turns the shotgun into a anti-infantry based weapon, While enabling groups of marines to still quickly take down fades who aren't playing very smart.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No.
Fades still win 1v1s against shotguns no problem, provided you're a good fade. Blink, attack, wear down armor, heal, then 2 swipe marines who have no armor. You're asking the fade to be buffed because you're playing the fade wrong. It's like asking the skulk to be buffed because you run along the ground at marines. Or the gorge to be buffed because you try to build hydras in the middle of a room and then die to flanks.
<!--quoteo(post=1944898:date=Jun 19 2012, 10:27 AM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Jun 19 2012, 10:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1944898"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sup, I do. So will most every other good fade in NS2. The problem people have with fades against a decent shotgun is that they have to actually blink. Most people simply don't know how to blink and attack. They just blink in, face tank damage, and swipe a marine down then run away to heal. THAT IS NOT HOW YOU PLAY FADE.
These face-tanking fades are now getting owned by the shotgun because the shotgun once again deals damage. That's how it should be. If the shotgun is hitting most of his shots (aka a good player), and the fade is a good player (aka blinking and attacking) the fade still wins nearly every 1v1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Alright, I'm willing to grant that fade can 1v1 a shot-gunner of equal skill, which he clearly should be able to due to the significant difference in res cost. But in addition to the res difference, fade has always been specialized to be the anti-personnel class, since he's so utterly useless against structures. Onos demolishes both pretty effectively, and is just 25 more res.
In theory, the usefulness increase from Skulk to Fade should be twice the usefulness increase from Fade to Onos. Personally I feel like there's a bigger jump between Fade and Onos than between skulk and fade.
<!--quoteo(post=1944936:date=Jun 19 2012, 11:47 AM:name=serpico)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (serpico @ Jun 19 2012, 11:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1944936"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In theory, the usefulness increase from Skulk to Fade should be twice the usefulness increase from Fade to Onos. Personally I feel like there's a bigger jump between Fade and Onos than between skulk and fade.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Remove the delay between blink and swipe and watch that problem melt away. Between the need to be able kill JPs, the shotgun buff (as seen in this thread), and the marine armor upgrade buffs the swipe delay is a relic that needs to go. It doesn't solve a problem anymore and needlessly complicates combat against jetpacks which need a nice soft counter.
IMO they should have never made A1 3 swipes, they should have just delayed the fade a little by lowering p.res. By then marines would not necessarily have A2 but they would be closer to it at the very least. A1, and all marine upgrades really are just ridiculously effective at the moment, especially with the faster resource income and relatively lower costs in build 210
It's these kind of changes, as well as for example the onos hide armour nerf that end up wrecking the alien lategame. They make marines better able to deal with these lifeforms early on, at the cost of reducing those lifeforms their effectiveness late game. This when they could have just delayed the lifeforms like they should have many patches ago (And afaik were planning on doing...) It's silly to try and balance lifeform stats when you are operating in a broken res/tech model to begin with. Fix that first, then look at lifeform and upgrade stats.
OK, I just did some fading and consciously paying attention to what problems I was having, and whether or not there are shotguns, I have two distinct issues:
1.) Late game when there are a lot of entities out, I drop to like 18 fps in combat. I can barely keep track of the marine.
2.) Fade's blink and shadow step may be super fast, but his walking speed seems to be slower than a marine (every other alien is faster). The consequence of this is that into melee range with a marine, and he backs up a couple feet and shoots me. I can't reach him with swipe, I can't catch up to him without blink or shadow step, and if I do either of those I frequently overshoot and have to spin around and find him again. The problem is exacerbated by my poor frame rate. Anyone else have this problem when playing fade, or have recommendations for how to handle it?
Comments
Have YOU even played this build? 4 to 5 of those kills were from one shotting skulks that is apparently "impossible" with the spread partial hits even with a w3. I also went ahead and two shot lerks as well. This ###### is laughable. Oh man, aiming is so damn hard, lemme tell you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I really dont want to get into a back and forth arguement where you keep bringing up terrible arguements that dilute all the good points in this thread. <b>With all respect</b>, you're <b>probably</b> a bad skulk since you don't seem to understand sg vs skulk dynamics, and you form judgements from playing against bad skulks on a clearly stacked team. I only needed to look at the screenshot to see the latter.
<!--QuoteBegin-hakenspit+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Sure you can say I am sh1t (I wont disagree) but it should take more than 1 shot to kill a cara skulk or lerk, sure the marines may have had w2 or even w3 but I had carapace..the one and only health/armor buff the aliens get all game (aside from higher lifeforms).
Looks like as others have said I will simply save up for an onos (2 lerks is almost 1 onos anyway..)
What amazes me is the hooha that came about with onos devour because it was a 1 ###### killer yet when the marines have a shot gun that does that all of a sudden there are no issues with 1 team having such a powerful weapon.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wont say you're ###### and i never intended to say this of anyone. Apologies if it came across that way. Ofcourse good sgers will typically kill alot of skulks and this extends all the way up the skill curve. My point all along was that its kinda silly to say one shotting carapace is 'taking skill and throwing it under a bus' or however misternubs put it. It was a totally vapid and emotionally charged statement that didn't add to the discussion.
Assymetry is hard to balance in terms of looking at parity balance. This is the case when you bring weapon upgrades and weapon costs into the picture. Should 20 res shotguns have an advantage against 0 res skulks with leap/celerity/cara etc? Should twitch aim and precision be rewarded? All i am saying is skulks have mobility potential when played smartly, enough to counter sg's to a reasonable extent imo. I'm also not saying cara is useless. It protects against partial hits which usually happen when you strafe jump etc.
To briefly address the point about devour. Yes, people made a hoohah because it was a one shot kill. The bigger hoohah imo however was that it was boring and removed control of player characters. You also have to understand that devour one shotted <b>everything</b>. Sg's do not do this.
This reads "I got called out, it is possible to one shot a skulk."
Please, do keep calling me a bad skulk. Just shows what type of person you are too.
With the increased effectiveness of it, I think the fade needs some more hp though.
Have YOU even played this build? 4 to 5 of those kills were from one shotting skulks that is apparently "impossible" with the spread partial hits even with a w3. I also went ahead and two shot lerks as well. This ###### is laughable. Oh man, aiming is so damn hard, lemme tell you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Im pretty sure he didnt say one shotting skulks is impossible in this build. Also, trying to base your argument on killing skulks that go 3-15 on public server is pretty weak. With that logic the skulk is also op because people can go 30-5 vs jp/sg marines with it on public.
I personally think the shotgun is finally pretty damn solid. Most of the problems with it arise from slow alien movement especially for the lerk, and the blink mechanics.
I personally think the shotgun is finally pretty damn solid. Most of the problems with it arise from slow alien movement especially for the lerk, and the blink mechanics.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then saying "do not one shot carapace skulks even with w3" is poor choice of wording.
The point was that shotguns can indeed one shot a skulk, regardless of the skill of a skulk player. Pointing out their score means squat. The matter of the fact is that shotguns can and do one shot skulks. Lemme repeat, regardless of player skill, shot guns can one shot skulks. Again, regardless of their skill. Lets do this one more time. Pointing out their score is trying to distract people away from the fact that the shotgun one shot skulks. Now reread. But go ahead and keep calling out the player's scores, if I hadn't at least given some type of "proof" some idiot is just going to say "screenshots or it didn't happen".
Shotguns are in a damn good solid. The problem why they're continuously good is because Alien scaling is abysmal. That is, that have zero scaling. You continue to one shot skulks while it takes more and more bites to kill you. Pretty retarded sounding for a game that is suppose to be balanced this close to release.
The point was that shotguns can indeed one shot a skulk, regardless of the skill of a skulk player. Pointing out their score means squat. The matter of the fact is that shotguns can and do one shot skulks. Lemme repeat, regardless of player skill, shot guns can one shot skulks. Again, regardless of their skill. Lets do this one more time. Pointing out their score is trying to distract people away from the fact that the shotgun one shot skulks. Now reread. But go ahead and keep calling out the player's scores, if I hadn't at least given some type of "proof" some idiot is just going to say "screenshots or it didn't happen".
Shotguns are in a damn good solid. The problem why they're continuously good is because Alien scaling is abysmal. That is, that have zero scaling. You continue to one shot skulks while it takes more and more bites to kill you. Pretty retarded sounding for a game that is suppose to be balanced this close to release.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Looks like you forgot to read the two words before that part of the sentence.
Last bloody post from me. Yuk. I said "PARTIAL HITS do not one shot carapace skulks even with w3". DWould you like me to go step by step through the maths with you?
Cara skulk = 130hp
SG damage = 170 * 1.3 = 221
130/221 = 59%
Assuming a partial hit is anything greater than 40% pellet misses, yes partial hits do not one shot cara skulks.
When we take it into the real world, we might need to add more realistic assumptions. Even with perfectly accurate shots, depending on range, position of skulk etc ofcourse i think it reasonable to estimate only 80-90% of your pellets will actually hit thus,
SG damage = 221*0.8 = 177
130/199 = 73%.
Assuming a partial hit is anything greater than 27% pellets missed, yes partial hits do not one shot cara skulks from 30-50% missed pellets.
You dont need to I will admit I am not the worlds best player ;)
The issues though is wider than my lack of skills, I am used to dying..do it a lot. But late in game when I have carapace I find getting 1 shotted as a skulk or lerk frustrating.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My point all along was that its kinda silly to say one shotting carapace is 'taking skill and throwing it under a bus' or however misternubs put it. It was a totally vapid and emotionally charged statement that didn't add to the discussion.
Assymetry is hard to balance in terms of looking at parity balance. This is the case when you bring weapon upgrades and weapon costs into the picture. Should 20 res shotguns have an advantage against 0 res skulks with leap/celerity/cara etc? Should twitch aim and precision be rewarded? All i am saying is skulks have mobility potential when played smartly, enough to counter sg's to a reasonable extent imo. I'm also not saying cara is useless. It protects against partial hits which usually happen when you strafe jump etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Carapace in ns1 was tailored to the number of chambers and had a level of scalability, now we simply have 1 flat cara boost so 2 types of each alien (weak and not weak).
Marines get 3 weapons upgrades which mean their weapons of ever increasing levels of damage and 4 different marine weapons (w0, w1, w2, w3).
Shotguns are devastating straight of the bat, then add in the damage buffs from the upgrades you have a weapon that kills skulks and LERKS (which dont cost 0...they cost 30) in 1 shot.
Whilst skulks are agile in close...lerks are not and with spores being bombed, bite being default attack it is forced to be able to tango with the SG...or sit back and watch from the side lines...perhaps taunting the marines as you dont want to risk flying through 3 o4 4 SG marines.
My lerking is no better than my skulking and I accept a lot of deaths when I flee having taken a couple of hits or part of a clip of a LMG. I find it tough to be knocked out cold with 1 shot from a SG.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To briefly address the point about devour. Yes, people made a hoohah because it was a one shot kill. The bigger hoohah imo however was that it was boring and removed control of player characters. You also have to understand that devour one shotted <b>everything</b>. Sg's do not do this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I used to like calling out for my marine buddies to shoot down the greedy onos
I'm not sure GetSpread(bulletNum) is used anymore, because of the fixed pattern (kSpreadVectors).
*
The shotgun has many variable to tweak, you can change it in many directions, getting different results. The problem is we are not very clear in which direction we want to go, how many shots it should take to kill this and that, and at which range.
I like the current shotgun much better, I think it should one shot non-cara skulks, but only at close distance, so you need to wait a bit to shoot.
It shouldn't one shot lerks however (specially with the current bite/spores), I don't know if it's the case now.
It would be nice to have an excel sheet that compute the number of shots you need for each lifeform.
I mean, ok, in a literal sense what you say is true - it doesnt do well long distance. But to imply this is a <i>"close range" weapon is not accurate</i>, currently, other than the fact that you have better odds at killing a skulk in one shot - which has little to do with it's <i>terminating </i>spread when speaking about a skulk at bite range. (thats originating spread mostly influencing that.) What dictates whether a weapon is a "close range" weapon is how well it does comparatively to any range other than "close range".. <i>and as seen below it still does just fine at medium. </i>
IMO, this creates a no brainer to always pick the shotgun, a cheap weapon without much of a tradeoff for picking. Which is just another way of saying not performing it's role correctly. The default, forced weapon, the lmg, should be the only "all around" weapon. Similar to the "all around" usefulness of the skulk... for example: what if there were no tradeoff/downside to picking a lerk other than the pres investment? You'd hear ppl screaming.. but when it happens to the shotgun, everyone is just happy that they can shoot and hit successfully - while those on the other end of the barrel just chalk it up to the status quo and shrug. (despite the lerk never being able to one shot a marine?)
To me, its very <b>odd </b>what some accept as appropriate / acceptable, as I think the rewarding sensation of hitting what you aim at overrides one's ability to look at the big picture, and thus influences them heavily.
I expect this to change once the polish phase comes into play and performance is high - where the novelty of hitting what you aim at diminishes as a new experience.
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/SZlvL.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
^THIS! I absolutely agree. As fun it is to have such a powerful weapon, it made skulk-play really boring. And come on, it is really easy to aim with the sg. It's not like you have to train this actually. And this will become even more bad with higher FPS.
The problem last build was that the spread was enormous at almost point blank range, not that the spread was enormous at mid-range. Basically, the spread should be tight at close range, wide at mid range and enormous at long range.
To the "one-shot" complaints: If the shotgun can't one-shot skulks at close range, there won't be much of a point in buying it at all.
I also think that either pres harvesting should be slowed down or gun cost should increase. There are too many advanced weapons in the field at any one time right now.
The problem last build was that the spread was enormous at almost point blank range, not that the spread was enormous at mid-range. Basically, the spread should be tight at close range, wide at mid range and enormous at long range.
To the "one-shot" complaints: If the shotgun can't one-shot skulks at close range, there won't be much of a point in buying it at all.
I also think that either pres harvesting should be slowed down or gun cost should increase. There are too many advanced weapons in the field at any one time right now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fullheartedly agree. I think the outer angle on the spread needs to be increased by 5-7 degrees, the above linked screenshots definitely show the shotgun is like damn laser beam.
Res gain as a whole needs to be slowed down, but especially pres. The early game needs to be extended and this also has the wonderful side effect of creating more instances of needing lower life forms or cheaper weapons (mines, welders shotties) earlier which staggers and calms down the tech explosions later in the game. I really hope the starting pres is dropped to 15 as well as a side note.
However, i do agree that it needs to be less "snipery" then it currently is, i think the spread after maybe 2 meters needs to be increased to allow less sniperage.
however, i totally agree, what is the point in having a sg that doesnt one hit a skulk? After all wasnt the ns1 shotguns description something along the lines of "the bane of all skulks" ?
-
correct me if im wrong but i shouldnt be punished because i put in multiple hours of ns2 a week?
p.s, i have no idea what the screenshot suggests.
I know but it would be nice if the SG actually had a weakness other than its price when compared to lmg
If by "smart plays" you mean sneaky skulks, I agree. I wouldn't cry foul on skulks or gorges going down too easily, but fades and lerks just feel like a waste of res in this build once shotties are out. Fades and skulks are both melee only, but fades are bigger targets and cost 50 res when you could just save 25 more res for Onos.
Seriously, say shotties are out, vortex isn't researched yet, and you're sitting on 50 res. Who here actually thinks going fade is a better tactical choice than saving for Onos? Even with vortex, I'm not sure it'd be sensible.
If it only takes 2-3 shotgun shells to kill a fade. That is waaaay too effective. This means that a marine can hold his own against a fade quite easily if he has some armour upgrades.
The shotgun also inflicts too much damage versus structures. I personally believe that flamethrowers should be the fastest way to kill a structure.
The shotgun is currently a fade that can destroy structures as fast as a lerk with spikes, and can kill kharaa as well as if not better, Than a fade can kill a marine.
I don't mind it DECIMATING skulks. Or even being a threat to lerk/gorge.
But a single shotgunner shouldn't make a fade afraid of going in for a swipe
And don't try to use the "It's terrible at range" excuse. Because a pistol on alt fire will pick apart foes from a distance and if they get close the shotgun hits like a freight train..
Solutions: Make it take 1-2 more shells to kill a fade, and reduce the damage it does to structures. This turns the shotgun into a anti-infantry based weapon, While enabling groups of marines to still quickly take down fades who aren't playing very smart.
In a world without nanoshield spam, once UWE finally removes the swipe delay on blink people will realise that sg vs fade is fine. Its also going to fix jp sg vs fade. It only seems like the fade needs to be able to tank more shells because of an artificial, buggy feeling limitation.
Shadowstep > blink for killing marines funnily enough. You only blink when you're stuck in a hole, want to get in a vent, or as an escape mechanism.
Sup, I do. So will most every other good fade in NS2. The problem people have with fades against a decent shotgun is that they have to actually blink. Most people simply don't know how to blink and attack. They just blink in, face tank damage, and swipe a marine down then run away to heal. THAT IS NOT HOW YOU PLAY FADE.
These face-tanking fades are now getting owned by the shotgun because the shotgun once again deals damage. That's how it should be. If the shotgun is hitting most of his shots (aka a good player), and the fade is a good player (aka blinking and attacking) the fade still wins nearly every 1v1.
If it only takes 2-3 shotgun shells to kill a fade. That is waaaay too effective. This means that a marine can hold his own against a fade quite easily if he has some armour upgrades.
The shotgun also inflicts too much damage versus structures. I personally believe that flamethrowers should be the fastest way to kill a structure.
The shotgun is currently a fade that can destroy structures as fast as a lerk with spikes, and can kill kharaa as well as if not better, Than a fade can kill a marine.
I don't mind it DECIMATING skulks. Or even being a threat to lerk/gorge.
But a single shotgunner shouldn't make a fade afraid of going in for a swipe
And don't try to use the "It's terrible at range" excuse. Because a pistol on alt fire will pick apart foes from a distance and if they get close the shotgun hits like a freight train..
Solutions: Make it take 1-2 more shells to kill a fade, and reduce the damage it does to structures. This turns the shotgun into a anti-infantry based weapon, While enabling groups of marines to still quickly take down fades who aren't playing very smart.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No.
Fades still win 1v1s against shotguns no problem, provided you're a good fade. Blink, attack, wear down armor, heal, then 2 swipe marines who have no armor. You're asking the fade to be buffed because you're playing the fade wrong. It's like asking the skulk to be buffed because you run along the ground at marines. Or the gorge to be buffed because you try to build hydras in the middle of a room and then die to flanks.
These face-tanking fades are now getting owned by the shotgun because the shotgun once again deals damage. That's how it should be. If the shotgun is hitting most of his shots (aka a good player), and the fade is a good player (aka blinking and attacking) the fade still wins nearly every 1v1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Alright, I'm willing to grant that fade can 1v1 a shot-gunner of equal skill, which he clearly should be able to due to the significant difference in res cost. But in addition to the res difference, fade has always been specialized to be the anti-personnel class, since he's so utterly useless against structures. Onos demolishes both pretty effectively, and is just 25 more res.
In theory, the usefulness increase from Skulk to Fade should be twice the usefulness increase from Fade to Onos. Personally I feel like there's a bigger jump between Fade and Onos than between skulk and fade.
Remove the delay between blink and swipe and watch that problem melt away. Between the need to be able kill JPs, the shotgun buff (as seen in this thread), and the marine armor upgrade buffs the swipe delay is a relic that needs to go. It doesn't solve a problem anymore and needlessly complicates combat against jetpacks which need a nice soft counter.
It's these kind of changes, as well as for example the onos hide armour nerf that end up wrecking the alien lategame. They make marines better able to deal with these lifeforms early on, at the cost of reducing those lifeforms their effectiveness late game. This when they could have just delayed the lifeforms like they should have many patches ago (And afaik were planning on doing...) It's silly to try and balance lifeform stats when you are operating in a broken res/tech model to begin with. Fix that first, then look at lifeform and upgrade stats.
1.) Late game when there are a lot of entities out, I drop to like 18 fps in combat. I can barely keep track of the marine.
2.) Fade's blink and shadow step may be super fast, but his walking speed seems to be slower than a marine (every other alien is faster). The consequence of this is that into melee range with a marine, and he backs up a couple feet and shoots me. I can't reach him with swipe, I can't catch up to him without blink or shadow step, and if I do either of those I frequently overshoot and have to spin around and find him again. The problem is exacerbated by my poor frame rate. Anyone else have this problem when playing fade, or have recommendations for how to handle it?