Shotgun
bungle
Join Date: 2012-04-21 Member: 150870Members
Join Date: 2012-04-21 Member: 150870Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Is it really OP?</div>Lets have some honest opinions now, as i have been waiting for them to change shotgun for days now as i hated the 209 version.
I've seen a lot of people complaining about "guys on pubs that can do 10-0 with a shotgun" and so on, but is this really a fair argument?
I mean, from my point of view the people that can 10-0+ with a shotgun on a pub most likely have played the game for a long time and most likely have a back ground from NS1.
After playing numerous games with people like grissi, swalk and fana last night i can honestly say i do not feel the shotgun is overpowered and i dont not feel its a fair argument to say "someone who has played ns for 10 years keep killing me with a SG so its op!"
Honest opinions now and some valid arguments now? :)
I've seen a lot of people complaining about "guys on pubs that can do 10-0 with a shotgun" and so on, but is this really a fair argument?
I mean, from my point of view the people that can 10-0+ with a shotgun on a pub most likely have played the game for a long time and most likely have a back ground from NS1.
After playing numerous games with people like grissi, swalk and fana last night i can honestly say i do not feel the shotgun is overpowered and i dont not feel its a fair argument to say "someone who has played ns for 10 years keep killing me with a SG so its op!"
Honest opinions now and some valid arguments now? :)
Comments
i agree with this, but i would prolly increase the spread at longer range then it is now but keep it low spread at close range.
What i think a lot of people do not realise is that if a marine misses one SG bullet you can kill the marine with good play.
Practice makes perfect with all games, i wouldnt join a CS server a whine that AWP is over powered or join a QL server a moan that rail gun is over powered.
One could argument, that the skulk is some kind of suicide-class and this is sure right. But personally its not fun for me dying every time from a spammed GL shot or a sg hit while biting through the armor. But this may just be me.
Shotguns should have a lot of teeth and be very scary like they are now, I think they are fine. The frequency of which they are purchased and seen through out the game is maybe not so good, but that is an over-all economy problem. There is just way too much res income right now (both p-res and especially t-res), and so it's not considered something that should be played conservatively with, but something you can easily go carelessly rambo with since you can buy another one so quickly.
Jetpacks are the real problem at the moment. And jetpacks can be balanced by tweaking leap and blink.
Jetpacks are the real problem at the moment. And jetpacks can be balanced by tweaking leap and blink.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1
<!--quoteo(post=1944071:date=Jun 17 2012, 06:03 AM:name=bungle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bungle @ Jun 17 2012, 06:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1944071"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've seen a lot of people complaining about "guys on pubs that can do 10-0 with a shotgun" and so on, but is this really a fair argument?
Honest opinions now and some valid arguments now? :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't have any experience with ns1, & i consider my self new to the game. But I can do that :P
The decision you're making is do I want this power NOW or in 2 minutes when we hive push? Do I want this shotgun to give me a better chance at killing an RT or do I want to save it for fades? You're not choosing LMG vs Shotgun, you're choosing shotgun now vs shotgun later. Accompanied by forced decisions on welders, mines, and eventually jetpacks can make that decision about shotguns even more complex.
Jetpacks are the real problem at the moment. And jetpacks can be balanced by tweaking leap and blink.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1 to this, i agree the issue is not the shotgun, the isse is the ability for the fade and skulk to kill the shotgun, blink just doesnt seem versitile enough against anything that doesnt walk in a straight line.
<!--quoteo(post=1944136:date=Jun 17 2012, 05:38 PM:name=bLink`)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bLink` @ Jun 17 2012, 05:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1944136"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't have any experience with ns1, & i consider my self new to the game. But I can do that :P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
thats fair enough blink, but i assume you play more then most pubbers do? which is kinda my argument, i dont see people walk into this game, pick up a shotgun and run riot on a server, shotgun has many flaws, and i think the devs "forget" that about 80% of this community is likely to be old ns1 players OR people that have played other games like CS or Quake.
<!--quoteo(post=1944160:date=Jun 17 2012, 06:27 PM:name=Champlo0)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Champlo0 @ Jun 17 2012, 06:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1944160"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Purely offensive ability that provides the only counter to multiple life forms and has a higher skill ceiling than the initial weapon and a lower skill floor. Also is lost upon death and multiple investments can be lost in rapid succession, fully depleting a large amount of PRes. So imbalanced.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i hope this was sarcasm :P
<!--quoteo(post=1944192:date=Jun 17 2012, 08:03 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Jun 17 2012, 08:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1944192"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The decision you're making is do I want this power NOW or in 2 minutes when we hive push? Do I want this shotgun to give me a better chance at killing an RT or do I want to save it for fades? You're not choosing LMG vs Shotgun, you're choosing shotgun now vs shotgun later. Accompanied by forced decisions on welders, mines, and eventually jetpacks can make that decision about shotguns even more complex.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I dont understand this! Why are you making my decisions so complicated!
Didn't you know? 2 minute tech is suppose to easily counter Aliens' "late game tech". Exosuits are just being added to stream roll aliens for ###### and giggles.
What if the shotgun is more effective than the exo? <img src="http://i.imgur.com/jXcpg.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Lerks also get 1 shotted a lot, which for a 30res lifeform is annoying (you die enough fleeing as a lerk...1shotters are just insult without prior injury).
I think the issue is that the shottie scales up with the weapon upgrades but the aliens dont increase armour in the same way (they did in ns1 chamber model but not ns2's).
This means that once shotties come out skulks are going to die ~90% of the time, not so much a problem as its a free lifeform but the NO res when dead really cripples an alien side.
The issue is that the shottie scales up its damage but aliens dont scale up their health/armor accordingly.
Late game skulks must have celerity to try to get close enough to get a bite in as they wont survive a direct hit.
Lerks getting 1 shot killed is also a balance issue, aliens outlay 30 res (non recyclable) to get killed with 1 shot from a 20 res weapon that is a recyclable item.
If the lerks being forced up close then fix the shottie so it doesn't 1 shot a carapaced lerk..its got nothing to do with symmetry just simple balance....heck I will take being 1 shotted as a skulk with carapace (if we must) but please fix so the lerks not 1 shot with a shottie.
Man, people 54-1 fade in games, agreed OP, whats the big issue?
I'd be more impressed with 10-0 lmg, and probably thus medpack the f'er more.
Mendsap: right now I'd rather dual wield 2 lmgs than a single shotgun, I think 2 miniguns might be even better :)
Yet Its not exactly a wide spread... at roughly 9 degrees from the center of the screen.
I mean, ok, in a literal sense what you say is true - it doesnt do well long distance. But to imply this is a <i>"close range" weapon is not accurate</i>, currently, other than the fact that you have better odds at killing a skulk in one shot - which has little to do with it's <i>terminating </i>spread when speaking about a skulk at bite range. (thats originating spread mostly influencing that.) What dictates whether a weapon is a "close range" weapon is how well it does comparatively to any range other than "close range".. <i>and as seen below it still does just fine at medium. </i>
IMO, this creates a no brainer to always pick the shotgun, a cheap weapon without much of a tradeoff for picking. Which is just another way of saying not performing it's role correctly. The default, forced weapon, the lmg, should be the only "all around" weapon. Similar to the "all around" usefulness of the skulk... for example: what if there were no tradeoff/downside to picking a lerk other than the pres investment? You'd hear ppl screaming.. but when it happens to the shotgun, everyone is just happy that they can shoot and hit successfully - while those on the other end of the barrel just chalk it up to the status quo and shrug. (despite the lerk never being able to one shot a marine?)
To me, its very <b>odd </b>what some accept as appropriate / acceptable, as I think the rewarding sensation of hitting what you aim at overrides one's ability to look at the big picture, and thus influences them heavily.
I expect this to change once the polish phase comes into play and performance is high - where the novelty of hitting what you aim at diminishes as a new experience.
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/SZlvL.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
I mean, ok, in a literal sense what you say is true - it doesnt do well long distance. But to imply this is a <i>"close range" weapon is not accurate</i>, currently, other than the fact that you have better odds at killing a skulk in one shot - which has little to do with it's <i>terminating </i>spread when speaking about a skulk at bite range. (thats originating spread mostly influencing that.) What dictates whether a weapon is a "close range" weapon is how well it does comparatively to any range other than "close range".. <i>and as seen below it still does just fine at medium. </i>
IMO, this creates a no brainer to always pick the shotgun, a cheap weapon without much of a tradeoff for picking. Which is just another way of saying not performing it's role correctly. The default, forced weapon, the lmg, should be the only "all around" weapon. Similar to the "all around" usefulness of the skulk... for example: what if there were no tradeoff/downside to picking a lerk other than the pres investment? You'd hear ppl screaming.. but when it happens to the shotgun, everyone is just happy that they can shoot and hit successfully - while those on the other end of the barrel just chalk it up to the status quo and shrug. (despite the lerk never being able to one shot a marine?)
To me, its very <b>odd </b>what some accept as appropriate / acceptable, as I think the rewarding sensation of hitting what you aim at overrides one's ability to look at the big picture, and thus influences them heavily.
I expect this to change once the polish phase comes into play and performance is high - where the novelty of hitting what you aim at diminishes as a new experience.
<a href="http://i.imgur.com/SZlvL.jpg" target="_blank">http://i.imgur.com/SZlvL.jpg</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"What if there were no downside other than the pres investment."
is basically saying
"What if there were no downside to owning a Ferrari other than the cost."
20 pres is only cheap when you're winning. I guarantee you that you cannot pick up a shotgun every death or even every other death in a competitive game. And this is completely neglecting welders, jetpacks, mines, and grenade launchers.
Also, where do you see 9 degree spread? The best I can tell is that half the pellets have 10 degree spread and half have 20 degree spread? This is the code for the shotgun:
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->kShotgunDamage = 17
kShotgunDamageType = kDamageType.Normal
kShotgunClipSize = 8
kShotgunBulletsPerShot = 10
kShotgunRange = 30
kShotgunSpreadDegrees = 20<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->local kSpreadDistance = 45
local kStartOffset = 0
local kSpreadVectors =
{
GetNormalizedVector(Vector(-2.8, 4, kSpreadDistance)), GetNormalizedVector(Vector(-1, 3.5, kSpreadDistance)), GetNormalizedVector(Vector(3, 3.5, kSpreadDistance)),
GetNormalizedVector(Vector(-3.5, 0, kSpreadDistance)), GetNormalizedVector(Vector(-0, 1.5, kSpreadDistance)), GetNormalizedVector(Vector(0.4, 0.5, kSpreadDistance)),
GetNormalizedVector(Vector(-2, -2, kSpreadDistance)), GetNormalizedVector(Vector(1, -0.5, kSpreadDistance)), GetNormalizedVector(Vector(2, -2.5, kSpreadDistance)),
GetNormalizedVector(Vector(-1, 0, kSpreadDistance)),
}<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->function Shotgun:GetSpread(bulletNum)
// NS1 was 20 degrees for half the shots and 20 degrees plus 7 degrees for half the shots
if bulletNum < (kShotgunBulletsPerShot / 2) then
return Math.Radians(10)
else
return Math.Radians(20)
end
end<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
Then again, my aging processor and iffy performance might be partly to blame for frustrating experience. I blinked up to two SG marines the other day and was practically dead before I could get a swipe off.
As Serpico said, I've started skipping going lerk and fade, but even then Onos are complete garbage once Marines have jetpacks.
Because it takes so much skill to click a button and evolve carapace as opposed to aiming perfectly with a shotgun? I dont even.... *boggle*
I agree with most everyone in here that the shotgun is in a good place but could use with a damage falloff or range limitation of some sort. This might help the problem with lerks being sniped?
I agree with most everyone in here that the shotgun is in a good place but could use with a damage falloff or range limitation of some sort. This might help the problem with lerks being sniped?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"aiming perfectly"
That's funny.
What is even funnier is Marines don't even need to click a button to upgrade their armor or weapon damage, they get it automatically.
Please enlighten us. I know of a few ways, but I want to hear it from you. Please, do go ahead.
That's funny.
What is even funnier is Marines don't even need to click a button to upgrade their armor or weapon damage, they get it automatically.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
=/? Have you played the build? You realise with the current shotgun spread partial hits do not one shot carapace skulks even with w3. Did you stop to think that maybe, just maybe you are just a bad skulk? We have leap, we have wall jump, we have celerity, we are still able to do crazy direction changes but only every jump. We even have vortex and the ability to deny marine upgrades.
You did know you're not supposed to kill shotgun marines by walking up to them and tanking the damage right?
You did know you're not supposed to kill shotgun marines by walking up to them and tanking the damage right?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href="http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g51/Verfluchtz/Shotgun2weakbuffplz.png" target="_blank">http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g51/Verf...weakbuffplz.png</a>
Have YOU even played this build? 4 to 5 of those kills were from one shotting skulks that is apparently "impossible" with the spread partial hits even with a w3. I also went ahead and two shot lerks as well. This ###### is laughable. Oh man, aiming is so damn hard, lemme tell you.
You did know you're not supposed to kill shotgun marines by walking up to them and tanking the damage right?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah I have played and been 1 shotted a lot as both skulk and lerk, no I didn't just walk up to them...generally got close enough to be able to get a bite or two in.
Sure you can say I am sh1t (I wont disagree) but it should take more than 1 shot to kill a cara skulk or lerk, sure the marines may have had w2 or even w3 but I had carapace..the one and only health/armor buff the aliens get all game (aside from higher lifeforms).
Looks like as others have said I will simply save up for an onos (2 lerks is almost 1 onos anyway..)
What amazes me is the hooha that came about with onos devour because it was a 1 ###### killer yet when the marines have a shot gun that does that all of a sudden there are no issues with 1 team having such a powerful weapon.