<!--quoteo(post=1933706:date=May 5 2012, 09:35 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ May 5 2012, 09:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933706"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->...what? Are you on drugs? Not a single one of the changes they've made have been to the benefit of "competitive gaming and balance". Pretty much every change from ns1 has been an attempt to make it more compelling for "casual gamers".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I want to say "how does making the game more restrictive in what you can do and making matches more linear and predictable = casual gamers", but then I remember on-rails shooters like COD sell millions and millions..
SecurityJoin Date: 2005-01-07Member: 33133Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited May 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1933706:date=May 5 2012, 06:35 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ May 5 2012, 06:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933706"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->...what? Are you on drugs? Not a single one of the changes they've made have been to the benefit of "competitive gaming and balance". Pretty much every change from ns1 has been an attempt to make it more compelling for "casual gamers".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes. Countless substances. :p
I think what you mean by "more compelling for casual gamers" is the fact that they are trying to force classic and combat mode into one single mode in NS2. And NS2 generally beeing too fast paced and linear. Thats another problem though.
But other than that.. what about the Alien Commander? Added purely for balance, making the gorge useless and taking away the aliens freedom and uniqueness in functioning as one big brain, instead of having a leader. What about upgrades requiring 2 different kind of chambers, unnecessarily overcomplicating everything?
There are countless more examples of overly restrictive things like this.
I think that our definition of "for fun" and "casual game" may differ. I'm all against dumbing things down. But also against senseless, overcomplicating changes of core mechanics that were perfectly fine.
As long as we agree on that NS1 Classic was better than this, its fine really. :p
SecurityJoin Date: 2005-01-07Member: 33133Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited May 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1933740:date=May 5 2012, 09:52 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ May 5 2012, 09:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933740"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->upgrading used to use up to 3 chambers in ns2, and it will again soon (just like it did in ns1)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah. 3 chambers to have the upgrades at full strength. But you had all 3 upgrades, i.e. carapace, regeneration, redemption right away. Even with only one chamber.
You didnt have to research the upgrade branch at the hive first, to even be allowed to <b>then</b> drop one extra chamber for each upgrade and <b>then</b> evolve each chamber.
<!--quoteo(post=1933228:date=May 3 2012, 11:56 PM:name=Master Blaster)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Master Blaster @ May 3 2012, 11:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933228"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->--I think it has to do with the <b>SMALL MAPS!!! WHERE BIG MAPS??? WHERE?</b> --<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This. Either I've dreamed some parts of good memories from NS1, or it had bigger maps with more options like welding corridors shut/open. And more crawlspaces&tunnels to for aliens to move faster between areas. Or hide under floorpanels to set up ambushes.
Sure there are some tunnels for aliens to use in the current maps, but they just feel like there could be at least twice as many&bigger networks to use.
Also, where the heck is my Xenocide? ;_; Or since the game is going for the dumber, more casual friendly direction, give alien commander a research to make Skulks explode on death. Might solve some turret farm situations too; just rush in with half dozen skulks, bite what you can and watch the corpses detonate.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited May 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1933739:date=May 5 2012, 08:38 PM:name=Security)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Security @ May 5 2012, 08:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933739"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As long as we agree on that NS1 Classic was better than this, its fine really. :p<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yup. My point was that NS2, as it is, is not a better "competitive" game, nor have the changes been made with the intention of making it a better "competitive" game.
fyi: the ns1 "competitive" community hated combat mode.
SecurityJoin Date: 2005-01-07Member: 33133Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1933744:date=May 5 2012, 10:12 PM:name=Lanka)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lanka @ May 5 2012, 10:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933744"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This. Either I've dreamed some parts of good memories from NS1, or it had bigger maps with more options like welding corridors shut/open. And more crawlspaces&tunnels to for aliens to move faster between areas. Or hide under floorpanels to set up ambushes.
Sure there are some tunnels for aliens to use in the current maps, but they just feel like there could be at least twice as many&bigger networks to use.
Also, where the heck is my Xenocide? ;_; Or since the game is going for the dumber, more casual friendly direction, give alien commander a research to make Skulks explode on death. Might solve some turret farm situations too; just rush in with half dozen skulks, bite what you can and watch the corpses detonate.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
SecurityJoin Date: 2005-01-07Member: 33133Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited May 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1933745:date=May 5 2012, 10:13 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ May 5 2012, 10:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933745"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->fyi: the ns1 "competitive" community hated combat mode.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know. I've been around since the beginning. :) Never played competetive though. Was busy enough beeing server admin.
I didn't really like the combat mode and its influence to the community either. Thats why we had strictly seperate Classic and Combat servers. Later, I learned to like it as something quick and fun to play, which doesnt require a lot of brain and time. (But also lacks long-time motivation.)
But I always thought that it was a wise decision to have a separate mode for this kind of gameplay, instead of ruining / dumbing down the whole main game.
That ARC issue could be fixed by changing it to a normal build type (instead of manufacture); can be dropped anywhere there's Power, Marines or MACs have to build it.
fmponeJoin Date: 2011-07-05Member: 108086Members, Squad Five Blue
edited May 2012
As somebody who never played NS1 and just got into NS2 whenever I registered, I enjoy the game and tend to think that it's not done yet, it's getting better. It's still in beta after all. But I guess my opinion isn't important :P
Also as far as maps, Mineshaft is bigger than Veil ever was, for instance. So a lot of things have changed that are altering your perceptions, but the contention that NS2 maps are smaller is a falsehood.
There are other things you guys are mentioning like xenocide that simply are in NS2 already, just not fully implemented yet.
SecurityJoin Date: 2005-01-07Member: 33133Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited May 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1933771:date=May 6 2012, 12:06 AM:name=fmpone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fmpone @ May 6 2012, 12:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933771"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As somebody who never played NS1 and just got into NS2 whenever I registered, I enjoy the game and tend to think that it's not done yet, it's getting better. It's still in beta after all. But I guess my opinion isn't important :P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In a thread about core experiences of NS1 missing in NS2.. probably not, yes. ;D
<!--quoteo(post=1933771:date=May 6 2012, 12:06 AM:name=fmpone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fmpone @ May 6 2012, 12:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933771"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also as far as maps, Mineshaft is bigger than Veil ever was, for instance. So a lot of things have changed that are altering your perceptions, but the contention that NS2 maps are smaller is a falsehood.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And Veil is probably not the best example of a good NS1 Classic map. ;)
fmponeJoin Date: 2011-07-05Member: 108086Members, Squad Five Blue
edited May 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1933772:date=May 5 2012, 06:09 PM:name=Security)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Security @ May 5 2012, 06:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933772"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In a thread about core experiences of NS1 missing in NS2.. probably not, yes. ;D<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry to rain on your parade! I can tell you that plenty of the stuff you guys have mentioned is coming back, so just be patient, NS1 took a lot of time to come together as well
fmponeJoin Date: 2011-07-05Member: 108086Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1933772:date=May 5 2012, 06:09 PM:name=Security)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Security @ May 5 2012, 06:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933772"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In a thread about core experiences of NS1 missing in NS2.. probably not, yes. ;D
And Veil is probably not the best example of a good NS1 Classic map. ;)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would be stunned if any NS1 map approaches the size of any one of the maps in development. Frankly I think Mineshaft might still be bigger than pretty much any NS1 map, or least even. Could be wrong though.
SecurityJoin Date: 2005-01-07Member: 33133Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited May 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1933775:date=May 6 2012, 12:16 AM:name=fmpone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fmpone @ May 6 2012, 12:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933775"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would be stunned if any NS1 map approaches the size of any one of the maps in development. Frankly I think Mineshaft might still be bigger than pretty much any NS1 map, or least even. Could be wrong though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmm, I'm not sure about the size myself. NS2 Maps sure feel smaller.
If NS2 maps are bigger or as big as NS1 maps, the reason why NS1 maps feel larger might be that there were usually smaller rooms and corridors, but a lot more of them than in NS2.
In NS2 all of the rooms and corridors are huge, but there are less overall.
And of course there were WAY more vents in all of the NS1 maps.
<!--quoteo(post=1932063:date=May 1 2012, 02:53 AM:name=[R8]DJBourgeoisie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ([R8]DJBourgeoisie @ May 1 2012, 02:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932063"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> These are the things that got me hooked on NS1, and kept me playing.
-Dropping a ninja phase gate, beaconing all marines to base, and shotgun rushing a hive. -Moving as a squad to a siege point, holding off aliens while advanced turret factory was researching, then dropping siege turrets and pushing in. -Rushing into marine start taking out a key structure (advanced armory) setting up a push on a marine controlled hive. -Protecting the GL'er while he targeted the hive/structures. -Retaking a hive after marines have "locked it down" with a phase gate/turret factory/turrets/sieges/obs. -The gorge rush. -Relocating to "random" points in levels not always in a hive. -Re-taking a 3rd hive from the marines and preparing for their counter-attack which decides victory or defeat. -Welding through a door to take down a hive (was fun for both teams attacking and defending)
I have yet to experience any of my favorite things about NS1 in NS2 and it bothers me. It isn't the same game and I get that, but when I hear NS, I think of the above. I've taken at look at how things are implemented in both games and can't help but feel the new implementation of multiple features may have a "cool factor" about them in NS2, but the impact on game play seems to be a let down imo.
I'll use turrets and sieges as an example. Sure its cool to have a mobile siege turret, but the aliens can see it coming and attack it long before it ever reaches it's destination. You have very little chance of ever sneaking into position like in NS1. As turrets go, again it's cool you can drop and aim and re-position them, but the limited attack radius of them makes them much less cost efficient. My point here I guess is I feel too much emphasis is being put on making things more complicated and cool looking but not enough consideration is on the result of those things.
I'm gonna keep this short and sweet, I just wanted to make my point. I did not make this post to troll or say NS1 was a better game or want to come across as telling UWE what they should do, I just want to get my thoughts out there in case others feel the same way. I want NS2 to succeed like everyone, but the real magic that made me an NS addict just isn't there for me in NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It has really simple explanation. NS2 devs had random thought of making different game at the excuse of making something new for money paid by people buying NS2. They entered entirely different area of design space where they have absolutely no clue nor experience. NS2 fade is an abomination.
Someone could try to attack this argument with redirection like "you have to be constructive" or "some things work" but that has nothing to do with what I said above.
There has also been 50-500 people group around forums and servers in beta reacting like total emo at any sign of criticism - even the obvious one that most good NS1 players somehow are not playing NS2. That group always outshouted everyone else.
<!--quoteo(post=1933381:date=May 4 2012, 04:14 AM:name=RisingSun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RisingSun @ May 4 2012, 04:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933381"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think it is time to start calling NS2 what it really is, a prequel.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Natural Selection II: The Phantom Menace
i disagree with the ninga PG. i was playing maineshaft not long ago when we had map control (aliens) and a marine with a jetpack flew over out infestaton and we never seen him and planeted him self high on the rocks, build a PG with out us knowing and then all of a sudden there whole team was in cave and killed our hive in a short time. They then beaconed back to stop a counter attack, rephased into cave and attacked our other hives from behind. It took us about 15 mins to retake cave while trying to stop them from pushing us back elsewhere. was a fun game with alot of diffrent tactics used by both teams to try win it. Was one of my best games so far, it was fun and it showed what each team can do with what tech is available to them
I dunno why they even waste time on balance yet until all the units are in and the servers are running at 60 ticks there is no reason to waste time on balance.. I usually log into a server after a patch and if it runs like crap I pretty much don't bother playing till next patch...
Also thy are kidding themselves if they think they will have a serious e-sports / competitive scene unless the game runs no slower then 60fps on the client and server..
I could rephrase what I said to that NS2 is second system for most of NS2 devs. I mean it in terms of The mythical man-month not that it was exactly 2nd system. I'm not exactly sure if they keep that fact in mind.
<!--quoteo(post=1933775:date=May 6 2012, 12:16 AM:name=fmpone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fmpone @ May 6 2012, 12:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933775"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would be stunned if any NS1 map approaches the size of any one of the maps in development. Frankly I think Mineshaft might still be bigger than pretty much any NS1 map, or least even. Could be wrong though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
From Operations to Cave is roughly the same distance as one side of ns_nothing to the other. However, most ns1 maps are highly spherical, in other words travelling from marine start to any hive room is roughly the same distance. Mineshaft on the other hand is highly elliptical. The map almost occurs in a straight line, with operations and cave on opposite ends. Everything within those two locations is obviously much closer to each other. I also think its safe to say that most ns1 maps have a greater surface area. More passages, rooms, vents ect. Essentially less "empty space" within the boundaries of the map itself.
<!--quoteo(post=1933779:date=May 6 2012, 12:28 AM:name=fmpone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fmpone @ May 6 2012, 12:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933779"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They feel smaller because of things like sprint, etc. I run around NS1 maps all time for inspiration.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well this is essentially what map size is. There is no digital foot or meter with which to measure distance in a game world. The only thing that really counts is the time taken to get from one location to the other. You can make a hallway twice as long, but if you also double the speed the player moves at, the area is the same size.
fmponeJoin Date: 2011-07-05Member: 108086Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1933876:date=May 6 2012, 06:41 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ May 6 2012, 06:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933876"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->From Operations to Cave is roughly the same distance as one side of ns_nothing to the other. However, most ns1 maps are highly spherical, in other words travelling from marine start to any hive room is roughly the same distance. Mineshaft on the other hand is highly elliptical. The map almost occurs in a straight line, with operations and cave on opposite ends. Everything within those two locations is obviously much closer to each other. I also think its safe to say that most ns1 maps have a greater surface area. More passages, rooms, vents ect. Essentially less "empty space" within the boundaries of the map itself.
Well this is essentially what map size is. There is no digital foot or meter with which to measure distance in a game world. The only thing that really counts is the time taken to get from one location to the other. You can make a hallway twice as long, but if you also double the speed the player moves at, the area is the same size.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yep, I agree. We've got simply huge maps on the way by conventional measurement (side by side comparison), so I think all parties will be satisfied.
Creating maps any bigger might not be a realistic task for a human individual, it's very tough considering all the detail we want to see and all the time it takes to do things right.
<!--quoteo(post=1933948:date=May 6 2012, 09:15 PM:name=fmpone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fmpone @ May 6 2012, 09:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933948"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yep, I agree. We've got simply huge maps on the way by conventional measurement (side by side comparison), so I think all parties will be satisfied.
Creating maps any bigger might not be a realistic task for a human individual, it's very tough considering all the detail we want to see and all the time it takes to do things right.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ye. I liked NS1 maps, but they were a bit too complex for new players to get into it.
<!--quoteo(post=1933772:date=May 5 2012, 11:09 PM:name=Security)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Security @ May 5 2012, 11:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933772"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And Veil is probably not the best example of a good NS1 Classic map. ;)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Get. Out.
<!--quoteo(post=1933951:date=May 6 2012, 11:27 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ May 6 2012, 11:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933951"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ye. I liked NS1 maps, but they were a bit too complex for new players to get into it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The people who cannot be bothered to learn so-called "complex" maps should stick to Angry Birds.
This is not Angry Birds.
Let's not go down this slippery slope of making NS2 be Call of Duty: Alien Warfare
Comments
I want to say "how does making the game more restrictive in what you can do and making matches more linear and predictable = casual gamers", but then I remember on-rails shooters like COD sell millions and millions..
Yes. Countless substances. :p
I think what you mean by "more compelling for casual gamers" is the fact that they are trying to force classic and combat mode into one single mode in NS2. And NS2 generally beeing too fast paced and linear. Thats another problem though.
But other than that.. what about the Alien Commander? Added purely for balance, making the gorge useless and taking away the aliens freedom and uniqueness in functioning as one big brain, instead of having a leader.
What about upgrades requiring 2 different kind of chambers, unnecessarily overcomplicating everything?
There are countless more examples of overly restrictive things like this.
I think that our definition of "for fun" and "casual game" may differ. I'm all against dumbing things down.
But also against senseless, overcomplicating changes of core mechanics that were perfectly fine.
As long as we agree on that NS1 Classic was better than this, its fine really. :p
upgrading used to use up to 3 chambers in ns2, and it will again soon (just like it did in ns1)
Yeah. 3 chambers to have the upgrades at full strength. But you had all 3 upgrades, i.e. carapace, regeneration, redemption right away. Even with only one chamber.
You didnt have to research the upgrade branch at the hive first, to even be allowed to <b>then</b> drop one extra chamber for each upgrade and <b>then</b> evolve each chamber.
Senselessly overcomplicating things much?
--<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This. Either I've dreamed some parts of good memories from NS1, or it had bigger maps with more options like welding corridors shut/open. And more crawlspaces&tunnels to for aliens to move faster between areas. Or hide under floorpanels to set up ambushes.
Sure there are some tunnels for aliens to use in the current maps, but they just feel like there could be at least twice as many&bigger networks to use.
Also, where the heck is my Xenocide? ;_; Or since the game is going for the dumber, more casual friendly direction, give alien commander a research to make Skulks explode on death. Might solve some turret farm situations too; just rush in with half dozen skulks, bite what you can and watch the corpses detonate.
Yup. My point was that NS2, as it is, is not a better "competitive" game, nor have the changes been made with the intention of making it a better "competitive" game.
fyi: the ns1 "competitive" community hated combat mode.
Sure there are some tunnels for aliens to use in the current maps, but they just feel like there could be at least twice as many&bigger networks to use.
Also, where the heck is my Xenocide? ;_; Or since the game is going for the dumber, more casual friendly direction, give alien commander a research to make Skulks explode on death. Might solve some turret farm situations too; just rush in with half dozen skulks, bite what you can and watch the corpses detonate.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, Sir.
I know. I've been around since the beginning. :)
Never played competetive though. Was busy enough beeing server admin.
I didn't really like the combat mode and its influence to the community either.
Thats why we had strictly seperate Classic and Combat servers.
Later, I learned to like it as something quick and fun to play, which doesnt require a lot of brain and time. (But also lacks long-time motivation.)
But I always thought that it was a wise decision to have a separate mode for this kind of gameplay, instead of ruining / dumbing down the whole main game.
NS2 fails in that regard.
Could still Deploy/Undeploy and all that.
Also as far as maps, Mineshaft is bigger than Veil ever was, for instance. So a lot of things have changed that are altering your perceptions, but the contention that NS2 maps are smaller is a falsehood.
There are other things you guys are mentioning like xenocide that simply are in NS2 already, just not fully implemented yet.
In a thread about core experiences of NS1 missing in NS2.. probably not, yes. ;D
<!--quoteo(post=1933771:date=May 6 2012, 12:06 AM:name=fmpone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fmpone @ May 6 2012, 12:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933771"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also as far as maps, Mineshaft is bigger than Veil ever was, for instance. So a lot of things have changed that are altering your perceptions, but the contention that NS2 maps are smaller is a falsehood.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And Veil is probably not the best example of a good NS1 Classic map. ;)
Sorry to rain on your parade! I can tell you that plenty of the stuff you guys have mentioned is coming back, so just be patient, NS1 took a lot of time to come together as well
And Veil is probably not the best example of a good NS1 Classic map. ;)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would be stunned if any NS1 map approaches the size of any one of the maps in development. Frankly I think Mineshaft might still be bigger than pretty much any NS1 map, or least even. Could be wrong though.
Hmm, I'm not sure about the size myself. NS2 Maps sure feel smaller.
If NS2 maps are bigger or as big as NS1 maps, the reason why NS1 maps feel larger might be that there were usually smaller rooms and corridors, but a lot more of them than in NS2.
In NS2 all of the rooms and corridors are huge, but there are less overall.
And of course there were WAY more vents in all of the NS1 maps.
These are the things that got me hooked on NS1, and kept me playing.
-Dropping a ninja phase gate, beaconing all marines to base, and shotgun rushing a hive.
-Moving as a squad to a siege point, holding off aliens while advanced turret factory was researching, then dropping siege turrets and pushing in.
-Rushing into marine start taking out a key structure (advanced armory) setting up a push on a marine controlled hive.
-Protecting the GL'er while he targeted the hive/structures.
-Retaking a hive after marines have "locked it down" with a phase gate/turret factory/turrets/sieges/obs.
-The gorge rush.
-Relocating to "random" points in levels not always in a hive.
-Re-taking a 3rd hive from the marines and preparing for their counter-attack which decides victory or defeat.
-Welding through a door to take down a hive (was fun for both teams attacking and defending)
I have yet to experience any of my favorite things about NS1 in NS2 and it bothers me. It isn't the same game and I get that, but when I hear NS, I think of the above. I've taken at look at how things are implemented in both games and can't help but feel the new implementation of multiple features may have a "cool factor" about them in NS2, but the impact on game play seems to be a let down imo.
I'll use turrets and sieges as an example. Sure its cool to have a mobile siege turret, but the aliens can see it coming and attack it long before it ever reaches it's destination. You have very little chance of ever sneaking into position like in NS1. As turrets go, again it's cool you can drop and aim and re-position them, but the limited attack radius of them makes them much less cost efficient. My point here I guess is I feel too much emphasis is being put on making things more complicated and cool looking but not enough consideration is on the result of those things.
I'm gonna keep this short and sweet, I just wanted to make my point. I did not make this post to troll or say NS1 was a better game or want to come across as telling UWE what they should do, I just want to get my thoughts out there in case others feel the same way. I want NS2 to succeed like everyone, but the real magic that made me an NS addict just isn't there for me in NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It has really simple explanation. NS2 devs had random thought of making different game at the excuse of making something new for money paid by people buying NS2. They entered entirely different area of design space where they have absolutely no clue nor experience. NS2 fade is an abomination.
Someone could try to attack this argument with redirection like "you have to be constructive" or "some things work" but that has nothing to do with what I said above.
There has also been 50-500 people group around forums and servers in beta reacting like total emo at any sign of criticism - even the obvious one that most good NS1 players somehow are not playing NS2. That group always outshouted everyone else.
Natural Selection II: The Phantom Menace
Also thy are kidding themselves if they think they will have a serious e-sports / competitive scene unless the game runs no slower then 60fps on the client and server..
From Operations to Cave is roughly the same distance as one side of ns_nothing to the other. However, most ns1 maps are highly spherical, in other words travelling from marine start to any hive room is roughly the same distance. Mineshaft on the other hand is highly elliptical. The map almost occurs in a straight line, with operations and cave on opposite ends. Everything within those two locations is obviously much closer to each other. I also think its safe to say that most ns1 maps have a greater surface area. More passages, rooms, vents ect. Essentially less "empty space" within the boundaries of the map itself.
<!--quoteo(post=1933779:date=May 6 2012, 12:28 AM:name=fmpone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fmpone @ May 6 2012, 12:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933779"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They feel smaller because of things like sprint, etc. I run around NS1 maps all time for inspiration.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well this is essentially what map size is. There is no digital foot or meter with which to measure distance in a game world. The only thing that really counts is the time taken to get from one location to the other. You can make a hallway twice as long, but if you also double the speed the player moves at, the area is the same size.
Well this is essentially what map size is. There is no digital foot or meter with which to measure distance in a game world. The only thing that really counts is the time taken to get from one location to the other. You can make a hallway twice as long, but if you also double the speed the player moves at, the area is the same size.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yep, I agree. We've got simply huge maps on the way by conventional measurement (side by side comparison), so I think all parties will be satisfied.
Creating maps any bigger might not be a realistic task for a human individual, it's very tough considering all the detail we want to see and all the time it takes to do things right.
Creating maps any bigger might not be a realistic task for a human individual, it's very tough considering all the detail we want to see and all the time it takes to do things right.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ye. I liked NS1 maps, but they were a bit too complex for new players to get into it.
Get. Out.
The people who cannot be bothered to learn so-called "complex" maps should stick to Angry Birds.
This is not Angry Birds.
Let's not go down this slippery slope of making NS2 be Call of Duty: Alien Warfare