<!--quoteo(post=1900507:date=Feb 7 2012, 03:57 PM:name=Descent)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Descent @ Feb 7 2012, 03:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1900507"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->When a franchise I love is this far behind schedule with this much broken code I'm totally justified, sorry.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Dude its not really broken this is just how software development goes.. The game has literally doubled in performance in the last few months, they know what is wrong with the game so it will be fixed..
The best thing you can do to help this happen faster is be supportive rather then being negative...
Trashing the dev team constantly is very unproductive believe it or not it does effect people, Flayra and the team and doing the best job they can to bring you NS2 have a little faith :)
<!--quoteo(post=1900509:date=Feb 7 2012, 01:02 AM:name=Burgman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Burgman @ Feb 7 2012, 01:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1900509"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->oh, well people kept saying get "your refund and leave" it sounded like people were actually getting refunds... I guess no one is? I'd love for this game to work but I just don't see it happening. The game runs like crap on high end machines only 6 months away from an official release? a beta is no excuse for that, this game should still be considered an alpha build and considering I paid 35 dollars for it, I feel really burned.
I would have gladly paid 35 or more for a fully functional ns2. I want this game to be successful. but buying a product that barely works on the promise of devs that my or may not deliver feels like a big ripoff.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thank you.
Remember when they said the design of the Spark engine would incur a 10% performance loss? Remember when Fall 2010 was the projected release? Remember when they kept saying optimization was a huge factor, but one and a half years later it's still choppy as hell and the netcode is shot? I'm sure there are many others I have forgotten at this point.
They were recently bragging on the newest VLOG about how easy it was to implement multi threading and that it was done in three days. Well, after playing with the console, it sure looks like a three day job. Granted, the performance boost is upwards of thirty percent, but thirty percent of zero is still zero.
All the NS community has been given is hubris. The game is still in Alpha stages but they are calling it a beta. Payed customers are given an attitude by forum staff and the community when complaining about performance.
It's not us, it's your programmers. If you guys are using this place as your only feedback mechanism, you're in for a rude shock, because on other forums this alpha is met with sighs of disappointment.
<!--quoteo(post=1900513:date=Feb 7 2012, 01:18 AM:name=ZerZex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ZerZex @ Feb 7 2012, 01:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1900513"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Firstly Decent, yes i put 100's of hours into ns1 and no im not concerned about this game cause I am enjoying it and its a beta so it will only get better. and who are you to preach about caring for the franchise when you posted "i'm just gonna email them and ask for a refund now. "
Honestly, wait till it is released and out of beta till you start feeling ripped off, the last 5 patch's have shown great improvements and performance increases, It is getting better and better all the time, hold in there and watch UWE blow you away with the finished product.
And lastly UWE looked at all the engines and the features they wanted werent there so they went and wrote a brand new engine so they were handing us a half arsed game and desent they have been advertising jobs alot.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, but like I said before, it's taken them over two years to get this level of performance out of the engine. Sorry, I just don't think they're up to it.
It doesn't matter if Spark has the features they want if they can't pull it off.
<!--quoteo(post=1900514:date=Feb 7 2012, 01:20 AM:name=kabab)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kabab @ Feb 7 2012, 01:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1900514"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Dude its not really broken this is just how software development goes.. The game has literally doubled in performance in the last few months, they know what is wrong with the game so it will be fixed..
The best thing you can do to help this happen faster is be supportive rather then being negative...
Trashing the dev team constantly is very unproductive believe it or not it does effect people, Flayra and the team and doing the best job they can to bring you NS2 have a little faith :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Once again, doubling what you had before is still marginal.
I hope Flayra's hearing what I'm saying. I don't care that Gabe Newell found it impressive. He isn't running it on an $800 computer.
<!--quoteo(post=1900509:date=Feb 7 2012, 12:02 AM:name=Burgman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Burgman @ Feb 7 2012, 12:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1900509"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->oh, well people kept saying get "your refund and leave" it sounded like people were actually getting refunds... I guess no one is? I'd love for this game to work but I just don't see it happening. The game runs like crap on high end machines only 6 months away from an official release? a beta is no excuse for that, this game should still be considered an alpha build and considering I paid 35 dollars for it, I feel really burned.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why is a beta "no excuse" for the game not being in a final-release state? If you wanted to judge the final product before you bought then you should never have pre-ordered the game in the first place.
<!--quoteo(post=1900509:date=Feb 7 2012, 12:02 AM:name=Burgman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Burgman @ Feb 7 2012, 12:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1900509"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->but buying a product that barely works on the promise of devs that may or may not deliver feels like a big ripoff.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Seriously, what do you think a pre-order is?! You've gotten exactly what you paid for: early access to an incomplete game (with the full game available at release). There has never been a guarantee that you'll like what the final product turns out to be, but you paid your money for it early to support the devs and participate in the beta.
This is about more than the poor performance in the beta. This is about the future of not only the game itself but the franchise as well. This is just one of many setbacks our beloved game has seen.
They are two years behind and it's still in alpha, and the engine doesn't work well. We were told the engine's single threaded nature was the biggest bottleneck. Multithreading is now implemented and the damn thing still crawls. Online play is impossible due to the horrid netcode.
The end is nowhere in sight as far as I am concerned. It's gonna be in the oven for another year or two at least. If it does come out before that time it's going to be super botched.
Id Software had an Alpha leak of Doom 3 back in 2002. It was numbered version 0.02. It was optimized better than Spark is now. It would run great on an Athlon XP 2000+ and a Ti4200, which was pretty standard mid range equipment back in the day.
I've talked to many other people who feel the same way I do. Unfortunately, the community here doesn't like it when people use logic.
<!--quoteo(post=1900515:date=Feb 7 2012, 04:22 PM:name=Descent)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Descent @ Feb 7 2012, 04:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1900515"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Once again, doubling what you had before is still marginal.
I hope Flayra's hearing what I'm saying. I don't care that Gabe Newell found it impressive. He isn't running it on an $800 computer.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If it doubled again I would be getting 60-140fps and that's on a i7 950 with a 5850 so hardly top of the line..
I dare say a $800 pc in 6months time will run NS2 fine..
<!--quoteo(post=1900526:date=Feb 7 2012, 06:14 AM:name=Descent)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Descent @ Feb 7 2012, 06:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1900526"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We were told the engine's single threaded nature was the biggest bottleneck. Multithreading is now implemented and the damn thing still crawls. Online play is impossible due to the horrid netcode.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Lua was\is the biggest bottleneck, and that has not been multi-threaded (which arguably is borderline impossible). I'm not so sure about the netcode being bad, what evidence do you have for this anyway? Don't come with bad reg\lag, as that's yet again mostly to blame on Lua (causing a low tick-rate on the server-side).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Id Software had an Alpha leak of Doom 3 back in 2002. It was numbered version 0.02. It was optimized better than Spark is now. It would run great on an Athlon XP 2000+ and a Ti4200, which was pretty standard mid range equipment back in the day.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Doom 3 was written in C\C++, compiled into machine-code, while most of NS2's computing-time is spent in the Lua-VM. It's a design-decision that has as a great benefit the extreme modability, and as largest downside the performance.
It's fine to think NS2 runs like a pile of poo at the moment, as it often does, but it would be nice to at least be somewhat informed with regards to the how and why.
I'm not being overly dramatic. They just multithreaded the engine and it's still crawling. They have had two years to get this game in a playable state and it hasn't happened yet. Whether they are willing to admit it or not, Spark has serious problems and judging by their track record it's not going to materialize how it should.
Like I said before, the Doom 3 Alpha's engine was in a better state, relatively speaking, than we are now.
<!--quoteo(post=1900529:date=Feb 7 2012, 02:27 AM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Feb 7 2012, 02:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1900529"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Lua was\is the biggest bottleneck, and that has not been multi-threaded (which arguably is borderline impossible). I'm not so sure about the netcode being bad, what evidence do you have for this anyway? Don't come with bad reg\lag, as that's yet again mostly to blame on Lua (causing a low tick-rate on the server-side).
Doom 3 was written in C\C++, compiled into machine-code, while most of NS2's computing-time is spent in the Lua-VM. It's a design-decision that has as a great benefit the extreme modability, and as largest downside the performance.
It's fine to think NS2 runs like a pile of poo at the moment, as it often does, but it would be nice to at least be somewhat informed with regards to the how and why.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're arguing with a bunch of people to convince them of whatever because... why? What is the outcome where you will be like EXCELLENT MY WORK HERE IS DONE. Will that be when every single beta player somehow magically agrees with you and demands refunds and UWE goes under or... what?
<!--quoteo(post=1900509:date=Feb 7 2012, 05:02 AM:name=Burgman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Burgman @ Feb 7 2012, 05:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1900509"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->oh, well people kept saying get "your refund and leave" it sounded like people were actually getting refunds... I guess no one is?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Anyone who has emailed us to ask for a refund has received one. Please email store@unknownworlds.com with your information and we will refund your $35. Give it a few days, though, since we only have one person overseeing refunds, and he's also our technical artist and is quite busy working on the game, so he is not always able to get to it right away.
Comments
Dude its not really broken this is just how software development goes.. The game has literally doubled in performance in the last few months, they know what is wrong with the game so it will be fixed..
The best thing you can do to help this happen faster is be supportive rather then being negative...
Trashing the dev team constantly is very unproductive believe it or not it does effect people, Flayra and the team and doing the best job they can to bring you NS2 have a little faith :)
I would have gladly paid 35 or more for a fully functional ns2. I want this game to be successful. but buying a product that barely works on the promise of devs that my or may not deliver feels like a big ripoff.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thank you.
Remember when they said the design of the Spark engine would incur a 10% performance loss? Remember when Fall 2010 was the projected release? Remember when they kept saying optimization was a huge factor, but one and a half years later it's still choppy as hell and the netcode is shot? I'm sure there are many others I have forgotten at this point.
They were recently bragging on the newest VLOG about how easy it was to implement multi threading and that it was done in three days. Well, after playing with the console, it sure looks like a three day job. Granted, the performance boost is upwards of thirty percent, but thirty percent of zero is still zero.
All the NS community has been given is hubris. The game is still in Alpha stages but they are calling it a beta. Payed customers are given an attitude by forum staff and the community when complaining about performance.
It's not us, it's your programmers. If you guys are using this place as your only feedback mechanism, you're in for a rude shock, because on other forums this alpha is met with sighs of disappointment.
<!--quoteo(post=1900513:date=Feb 7 2012, 01:18 AM:name=ZerZex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ZerZex @ Feb 7 2012, 01:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1900513"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Firstly Decent, yes i put 100's of hours into ns1 and no im not concerned about this game cause I am enjoying it and its a beta so it will only get better. and who are you to preach about caring for the franchise when you posted "i'm just gonna email them and ask for a refund now. "
Honestly, wait till it is released and out of beta till you start feeling ripped off, the last 5 patch's have shown great improvements and performance increases, It is getting better and better all the time, hold in there and watch UWE blow you away with the finished product.
And lastly UWE looked at all the engines and the features they wanted werent there so they went and wrote a brand new engine so they were handing us a half arsed game and desent they have been advertising jobs alot.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, but like I said before, it's taken them over two years to get this level of performance out of the engine. Sorry, I just don't think they're up to it.
It doesn't matter if Spark has the features they want if they can't pull it off.
<!--quoteo(post=1900514:date=Feb 7 2012, 01:20 AM:name=kabab)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kabab @ Feb 7 2012, 01:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1900514"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Dude its not really broken this is just how software development goes.. The game has literally doubled in performance in the last few months, they know what is wrong with the game so it will be fixed..
The best thing you can do to help this happen faster is be supportive rather then being negative...
Trashing the dev team constantly is very unproductive believe it or not it does effect people, Flayra and the team and doing the best job they can to bring you NS2 have a little faith :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Once again, doubling what you had before is still marginal.
I hope Flayra's hearing what I'm saying. I don't care that Gabe Newell found it impressive. He isn't running it on an $800 computer.
It uses 4 cores first core 60-70% and the rest of the cores 30-50%...
That is as good as any other game i've seen...
Ask for a refund or wait til final release for improvements.
Why is a beta "no excuse" for the game not being in a final-release state? If you wanted to judge the final product before you bought then you should never have pre-ordered the game in the first place.
<!--quoteo(post=1900509:date=Feb 7 2012, 12:02 AM:name=Burgman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Burgman @ Feb 7 2012, 12:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1900509"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->but buying a product that barely works on the promise of devs that may or may not deliver feels like a big ripoff.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Seriously, what do you think a pre-order is?! You've gotten exactly what you paid for: early access to an incomplete game (with the full game available at release). There has never been a guarantee that you'll like what the final product turns out to be, but you paid your money for it early to support the devs and participate in the beta.
They are two years behind and it's still in alpha, and the engine doesn't work well. We were told the engine's single threaded nature was the biggest bottleneck. Multithreading is now implemented and the damn thing still crawls. Online play is impossible due to the horrid netcode.
The end is nowhere in sight as far as I am concerned. It's gonna be in the oven for another year or two at least. If it does come out before that time it's going to be super botched.
Id Software had an Alpha leak of Doom 3 back in 2002. It was numbered version 0.02. It was optimized better than Spark is now. It would run great on an Athlon XP 2000+ and a Ti4200, which was pretty standard mid range equipment back in the day.
I've talked to many other people who feel the same way I do. Unfortunately, the community here doesn't like it when people use logic.
I hope Flayra's hearing what I'm saying. I don't care that Gabe Newell found it impressive. He isn't running it on an $800 computer.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If it doubled again I would be getting 60-140fps and that's on a i7 950 with a 5850 so hardly top of the line..
I dare say a $800 pc in 6months time will run NS2 fine..
Your being overly dramatic...
Lua was\is the biggest bottleneck, and that has not been multi-threaded (which arguably is borderline impossible). I'm not so sure about the netcode being bad, what evidence do you have for this anyway? Don't come with bad reg\lag, as that's yet again mostly to blame on Lua (causing a low tick-rate on the server-side).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Id Software had an Alpha leak of Doom 3 back in 2002. It was numbered version 0.02. It was optimized better than Spark is now. It would run great on an Athlon XP 2000+ and a Ti4200, which was pretty standard mid range equipment back in the day.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Doom 3 was written in C\C++, compiled into machine-code, while most of NS2's computing-time is spent in the Lua-VM. It's a design-decision that has as a great benefit the extreme modability, and as largest downside the performance.
It's fine to think NS2 runs like a pile of poo at the moment, as it often does, but it would be nice to at least be somewhat informed with regards to the how and why.
Like I said before, the Doom 3 Alpha's engine was in a better state, relatively speaking, than we are now.
<!--quoteo(post=1900529:date=Feb 7 2012, 02:27 AM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Feb 7 2012, 02:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1900529"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Lua was\is the biggest bottleneck, and that has not been multi-threaded (which arguably is borderline impossible). I'm not so sure about the netcode being bad, what evidence do you have for this anyway? Don't come with bad reg\lag, as that's yet again mostly to blame on Lua (causing a low tick-rate on the server-side).
Doom 3 was written in C\C++, compiled into machine-code, while most of NS2's computing-time is spent in the Lua-VM. It's a design-decision that has as a great benefit the extreme modability, and as largest downside the performance.
It's fine to think NS2 runs like a pile of poo at the moment, as it often does, but it would be nice to at least be somewhat informed with regards to the how and why.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You just proved my point.
You're arguing with a bunch of people to convince them of whatever because... why? What is the outcome where you will be like EXCELLENT MY WORK HERE IS DONE. Will that be when every single beta player somehow magically agrees with you and demands refunds and UWE goes under or... what?
Get a grip. Go do something you enjoy.
Anyone who has emailed us to ask for a refund has received one. Please email store@unknownworlds.com with your information and we will refund your $35. Give it a few days, though, since we only have one person overseeing refunds, and he's also our technical artist and is quite busy working on the game, so he is not always able to get to it right away.
Thanks.
--Cory
The rest of us, will be enjoying the game.