I have no idea how or even if LUA scripts tie in with maps, but couldn't the spawns be determined by a script? Wouldn't that cover all the bases? Also allow pulling in server variables into the mix? Like...
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
Spawning locations are set in the map editor at the moment. Currently you can make static spawns, all random, whatever screnario you like. I would like to see the current maps get edited starting positions, due to both teams spawning at same locations does simply not work. Both teams being able to spawn at the same location is not viable, due to layouts have to be designed for whatever team spawns there.
zombiehellmonkeyJoin Date: 2007-08-31Member: 62093Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1894968:date=Jan 16 2012, 05:49 PM:name=swalk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (swalk @ Jan 16 2012, 05:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1894968"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Spawning locations are set in the map editor at the moment. Currently you can make static spawns, all random, whatever screnario you like. I would like to see the current maps get edited starting positions, due to both teams spawning at same locations does simply not work. Both teams being able to spawn at the same location is not viable, due to layouts have to be designed for whatever team spawns there.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's easier to do with a six tech map ==> set two random alien starts close together, set two random marine starts close together, two techs unassigned in between as non-starts. So in future, map designers have to consider the vent systems for the tech locations when starting a map.
I don't see a problem with random starts yet. If very close random starts create overly deathmatch games, then we we'll address it either in the map/start, or in by constraining with a minimum distance.
<!--quoteo(post=1895176:date=Jan 17 2012, 06:05 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Jan 17 2012, 06:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1895176"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't see a problem with random starts yet. If very close random starts create overly deathmatch games, then we we'll address it either in the map/start, or in by constraining with a minimum distance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I really like the constraining with a minimum distance idea, infact it was my first though on how to solve this when the random start first got implemented.
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
edited January 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1895176:date=Jan 17 2012, 07:05 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Jan 17 2012, 07:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1895176"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't see a problem with random starts yet. If very close random starts create overly deathmatch games, then we we'll address it either in the map/start, or in by constraining with a minimum distance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I have stated the problems with random starts in the topic, they should be rather obvious. It is just not suitable to have both teams be able to spawn at the same location due to map design(vents). It's a problem both for publics and competetive play, you need to address it. You could balance summit around both teams being able to spawn at two different locations, and across each other, but that would take alot of reworking the map to get the game flow right. Whenever we play summit in pcws at the moment, we disable the random starts because it's <i>that</i> bad. Try to listen to the players that actually play the game, and play it competetively.
I really like random spawn. It may have its problems but I'm sure those can for the most part be ironed out. And even if you're a bit unlucky and get a not so optimal spawn so what. Be creative. Work with what you have. I consider this part of the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1894676:date=Jan 15 2012, 02:52 PM:name=swalk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (swalk @ Jan 15 2012, 02:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1894676"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Try reading the topic again, this is not the solution. Why? Due to vent systems on maps; aliens need them to get around the map from their spawns, and marine spawns needs to NOT have vents. Alien spawns should be alien favoured, marine spawns should be marine favoured. The current random spawns destroys that, even if a distance requirement was introduced. The only way to correct this balance issue is to set starting locations accordingly. Also, the current random spawns is definitly subject to change, it was a very risky move, and obviously doesn't work as it should.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Er, none of that is important.
Alien spawn is alien favored because the aliens spawn there, marine spawn is marine favoured because marines spawn there.
Kill an alien in marine spawn, it takes said alien let's say, 30 seconds to get back to that point.
Kill a marine in marine spawn, it takes said marine 10-15 seconds to get back to that point.
Meaning, marines outnumber aliens 2-1 at their spawn.
Vents are a bit of flavour, but ultimately unimportant. Aside from the odd bit of vent sniping (which is a problem in and of itself, not a problem with spawn points having vents) having a vent in marine start doesn't affect anything. Stick a sentry turret in front of it if it bothers you. It's vents IN GENERAL that are interesting, they are powerful as a tool to get around the map, but that means they are powerful as a network, not as a single access route into a particular room. They allow aliens to move unexpectedly, the lone vent into marine start is not an unexpected attack direction, it's the first thing you cover with a sentry gun because it's the one place that a single sentry can actually cover.
Vents work when you use them to allow strikes at a large area, they serve to negate the concept of a front line for the light alien classes. Their strength is in the fact that marines with 2 bases and 3 outlying extractors cannot truly lock down their territory, and anywhere in that territory is vulnerable to attack, and that will be true no matter where the aliens or marines start as long as the map has a vent network, designed to allow vent access from one side of the map to the other.
Vent access in a particular room? Not that important honestly, unless you make it a major feature of the room like say, a room with double res nodes, or a room with lots of weldable doors/shoot-through walls (marine only). You could certainly try adding marine or alien favoring rooms to a map, but spawn points don't need to be such rooms.
<!--quoteo(post=1895304:date=Jan 17 2012, 08:35 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jan 17 2012, 08:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1895304"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Alien spawn is alien favored because the aliens spawn there, marine spawn is marine favoured because marines spawn there.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is an extremely narrow-minded statement and leads to a very ill-conceived conclusion.
It's a wonder that you can ignore the importance of map design simply because of the natural respawn-time advantage. There is not a single respectable NS1 map (except maybe ns_caged?) that suffers from alien-biased vents in marine start. In fact, mappers overwhelmingly tend to remove any vents in map updates. Eclipse, veil, bast and ayumi (though unoffically in ayumi's case) have all been reworked to remove vents. This says a lot about the importance of vents and starting locations. It's quite absurd to claim that they just add flavour. In NS2, vents aren't limited to confining combat advantages to aliens which they do well enough as it is. It makes the already cheesy and powerful base-rush that much more of an option too.
Honestly I think this would be the simplest solution: leave it in the hands of the mapper. <!--quoteo(post=1894813:date=Jan 16 2012, 01:26 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jan 16 2012, 01:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1894813"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro--><b>Just give the mapper more control over starting points.</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:#00DD00--><span style="color:#00DD00"><!--/coloro-->> The mapper can specify a tech point as "potential marine start" and/or "potential alien start".<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:red--><span style="color:red"><!--/coloro-->Using "minimum distance" is a really fickle, inflexible, and unpredictable way of achieving the same results.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If they need even more control than that, then: <!--quoteo(post=1894813:date=Jan 16 2012, 01:26 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jan 16 2012, 01:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1894813"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--coloro:#00DD00--><span style="color:#00DD00"><!--/coloro-->You could go even further and have dependencies.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> <!--coloro:#00BB00--><span style="color:#00BB00"><!--/coloro-->> The mapper can specify that if x is marine start, then y and z must not be alien start.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> Or: <!--coloro:#00BB00--><span style="color:#00BB00"><!--/coloro-->> The mapper can specify that if x is marine start, then y and z may be alien start.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Clearly, for reasons discussed already, you wouldn't want to put a marine start in a tech point room accessible from plenty of vents, unless you wanted to make it particularly difficult for the marines.
keep the way it is. it keeps the game dynamic. what i'd say is have the short route between hives have to be unlocked by welding or blocked by lockable doors, and have a second, more distant route as the default until those options are available
FOR EXAMPLE:
on summit, the route between ventilation and data core should have a door between the stairs and ventilation, and the main route should be the crossroads one (the onos friendly route).
I still want random spawns. It makes it fun even if it is DMish
But harimau nailed it by pointing out it should be just a mapping decision. he also nailed it by mentioning it could be a server option for fixed spawns. I could see fixed spawns being a league thing.
I do like random spawns, however sometimes they can be really close and annoying for either team. I think that it brings a great element to the game. I do feel that later on down the road these things should be added into the server config, allowing the server operator to control such things.
A great example of how this worked was in Quake II. The flag called "Spawn Furthest" would allow server operators to have people spawn at a location furthest away from their death location. The funny thing is that it was a bit counter-productive, as smart players who made the kill would simply just know where their enemy would respawn if the flag was enabled. This doesn't matter for NS2, so it shouldn't be a problem.
I think what it comes down to is for marines and aliens alike to scout out their enemies' locations so that they can prepare for such types of combat.
Maybe my suggestion wasn't clear, but the idea is that the mapper can specify any tech point, as many as he wants, as 'potential marine start' or 'potential alien start' or both.
So the game would choose a random start location for the marines from among those tech points marked as 'potential marine start', then a random start location for the aliens from among the remaining tech points marked as 'potential alien start'.
A mapper could do the classic NS thing and have only one marine start, and several potential alien starts. Or the mapper could have one marine start and one alien start. Or the mapper could have all the potential marine starts and potential alien starts be the same. Or some other configuration, it's up to them.
It can be dynamic, it can be static, it can be bits of both; it's up to the mapper's intentions.
<!--coloro:#aadd00--><span style="color:#aadd00"><!--/coloro-->Yes, I agree. It should be up to the mapper to decide the spawning situation, more control in the area in general (emergency light color on a given map for instance) is never a bad idea. It's easily the most flexible of ideas here. <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1895449:date=Jan 18 2012, 08:25 AM:name=Kurrine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kurrine @ Jan 18 2012, 08:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1895449"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--coloro:#aadd00--><span style="color:#aadd00"><!--/coloro-->Yes, I agree. It should be up to the mapper to decide the spawning situation, more control in the area in general (emergency light color on a given map for instance) is never a bad idea. It's easily the most flexible of ideas here. <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's already up to the mapper to specify the use of each tech point. When he places the enity in his map, he has four options to choose from:
Either Team Random Start
Marine-Only Random Start
Alien-Only Random Start
Do not use as random start.
These options are fine and cover all possible permutations, the issue is currently ALL the maps in use were designed before random starts were implemented. Random starts are not broken, you just don't yet have any maps designed to properly take advantage of them.
<!--quoteo(post=1895467:date=Jan 18 2012, 12:52 AM:name=Soul_Rider)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soul_Rider @ Jan 18 2012, 12:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1895467"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's already up to the mapper to specify the use of each tech point. When he places the enity in his map, he has four options to choose from:
Either Team Random Start
Marine-Only Random Start
Alien-Only Random Start
Do not use as random start.
These options are fine and cover all possible permutations, the issue is currently ALL the maps in use were designed before random starts were implemented. Random starts are not broken, you just don't yet have any maps designed to properly take advantage of them.
That is all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--coloro:#aadd00--><span style="color:#aadd00"><!--/coloro-->Ah, good to hear, I wasn't aware that was properly set up. Pretty much sums that up then, this isn't an issue. I might as well ask: Am I correct in my recalling that you can't custom set what the color,dimness or behavior of the powered-down state of a room is on a map? I admit I haven't looked into this in a while. That's another one if so I'm hoping will become up to the mapper. Edit: To be clear on "behavior" I mean sequences like the slow throb it currently has.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1895472:date=Jan 18 2012, 10:45 AM:name=Kurrine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kurrine @ Jan 18 2012, 10:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1895472"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--coloro:#aadd00--><span style="color:#aadd00"><!--/coloro-->Ah, good to hear, I wasn't aware that was properly set up. Pretty much sums that up then, this isn't an issue. I might as well ask: Am I correct in my recalling that you can't custom set what the color,dimness or behavior of the powered-down state of a room is on a map? I admit I haven't looked into this in a while. That's another one if so I'm hoping will become up to the mapper. Edit: To be clear on "behavior" I mean sequences like the slow throb it currently has.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can't edit the red overlay light and it's pulses, but when you design the map, you specify lights attached to the power node, and lights which are not attached. Logically, lights not attached are always on, and lights attached to the grid go on or off as related to the state of the powernode during the game.
The red pulsing overlay is laid on top of the lighting, I believe as a kind of post process, although I may be wrong on that point.
<!--quoteo(post=1895467:date=Jan 18 2012, 04:52 PM:name=Soul_Rider)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soul_Rider @ Jan 18 2012, 04:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1895467"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's already up to the mapper to specify the use of each tech point. When he places the enity in his map, he has four options to choose from:
Either Team Random Start
Marine-Only Random Start
Alien-Only Random Start
Do not use as random start.
These options are fine and cover all possible permutations, the issue is currently ALL the maps in use were designed before random starts were implemented. Random starts are not broken, you just don't yet have any maps designed to properly take advantage of them.
That is all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Really? I didn't know that.
In that case, we should take it up with the mappers in the mapping forum.
I haven't read the whole thread so I don't know if something like this has been mentioned. I think that a way to balance random spawn would be that if the two teams spawns are too close, the section between them could be closed in some way to prevent base rushing early on. Like putting some gates that in that case would be closed.
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
edited January 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1895337:date=Jan 18 2012, 02:56 AM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Jan 18 2012, 02:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1895337"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is an extremely narrow-minded statement and leads to a very ill-conceived conclusion.
It's a wonder that you can ignore the importance of map design simply because of the natural respawn-time advantage. There is not a single respectable NS1 map (except maybe ns_caged?) that suffers from alien-biased vents in marine start. In fact, mappers overwhelmingly tend to remove any vents in map updates. Eclipse, veil, bast and ayumi (though unoffically in ayumi's case) have all been reworked to remove vents. This says a lot about the importance of vents and starting locations. It's quite absurd to claim that they just add flavour. In NS2, vents aren't limited to confining combat advantages to aliens which they do well enough as it is. It makes the already cheesy and powerful base-rush that much more of an option too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> +9000
<!--quoteo(post=1895526:date=Jan 18 2012, 04:35 PM:name=reaven)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (reaven @ Jan 18 2012, 04:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1895526"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I haven't read the whole thread so I don't know if something like this has been mentioned. I think that a way to balance random spawn would be that if the two teams spawns are too close, the section between them could be closed in some way to prevent base rushing early on. Like putting some gates that in that case would be closed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Why have these temporary walls(which is out of place btw.), when you can fix the map in 2 minutes in the map editor?
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1895491:date=Jan 18 2012, 01:03 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jan 18 2012, 01:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1895491"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Really? I didn't know that.
In that case, we should take it up with the mappers in the mapping forum.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yea well, I also stated that earlier in the thread. Also, doing so doesn't help much, as it is ultimately Charlie that have made this decision and forces it on all official maps. It ruins the maps.
<!--quoteo(post=1895541:date=Jan 18 2012, 07:12 PM:name=swalk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (swalk @ Jan 18 2012, 07:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1895541"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why have these temporary walls(which is out of place btw.), when you can fix the map in 2 minutes in the map editor?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It wouldn't be out of place, as the maps would be modified for that matter. And what do you mean by fix the maps in 2 minutes, to remove the random spawns altogether? Because that defiles the purpose of my suggestion.
I think random spawns greatly add to the gameplay and is worth fixing and spending time on, although, I would make it a server based option anyway.
<!--quoteo(post=1895542:date=Jan 19 2012, 01:15 AM:name=swalk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (swalk @ Jan 19 2012, 01:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1895542"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, doing so doesn't help much, as it is ultimately Charlie that have made this decision and forces it on all official maps.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Is that even true? Does it say that in the mapping guidelines?
pSyk0mAnNerdish by NatureGermanyJoin Date: 2003-08-07Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
I'd be interested in some youtube videos of pcws/games, where close team spawns have, in your opinion, ruined the game. Sure, the early game is vastly different, if you have close spawn locations, but in the mid/late game with a 2nd hive, marine expansion/phasegate this shouldn't be a problem anymore, because then it's basicly the same situation as with opposite starting locations. I'm not saying it's working fine right now, but the game is still changing and these things can be adressed in other ways. Would be a shame to get rid of parts of the random spawn system. I'm also recounting playing a lot of cool games/gathers/pcws in NS1 maps that, due to their layout, had a (base-)rush hive. It wasn't that big a deal, both teams usually tried to ignore the res node in between and spread out along the other side of the map.
ZeikkoJoin Date: 2007-12-16Member: 63179Members, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester
<!--quoteo(post=1895737:date=Jan 19 2012, 01:22 PM:name=pSyk0mAn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (pSyk0mAn @ Jan 19 2012, 01:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1895737"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd be interested in some youtube videos of pcws/games, where close team spawns have, in your opinion, ruined the game. Sure, the early game is vastly different, if you have close spawn locations, but in the mid/late game with a 2nd hive, marine expansion/phasegate this shouldn't be a problem anymore, because then it's basicly the same situation as with opposite starting locations. I'm not saying it's working fine right now, but the game is still changing and these things can be adressed in other ways. Would be a shame to get rid of parts of the random spawn system. I'm also recounting playing a lot of cool games/gathers/pcws in NS1 maps that, due to their layout, had a (base-)rush hive. It wasn't that big a deal, both teams usually tried to ignore the res node in between and spread out along the other side of the map.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If i remember right we as team Archaea have only played two scrims in Summit with random starts. This happened shortly after they were introduced. Both of them were farces and after that we have played our matches in ns2_turtle and modified version of Summit that has fixed spawns.
Earlier i didn't take part to this discussion because i know mappers already have all the tools needed to tweak the random spawns and I thought that tram and summit with random spawns was just to test the random spawns initially and would be disabled later. But now that i've read that pSyk0mAn and Flayra don't think there's a problem i have to say couple of words.
Random spawns are fine for public play because it gives more variety to the map and balance between rounds is not a problem. But in competetive setting the balance between each round is a crucial factor. This means that all spawn combinations should have equal chances of victory for both sides. Currently this is not the case at all in Summit. For example Atrium is a very good starting tech point for aliens because of the vents and terrible starting location for marines for the same reason. Aliens get a huge advantage by using the vents to backstab the marines or circumvent marine defences and attack their base unnoticed.
Also the room where marines used to start (can't remember the name now) is terrible starting location for aliens because marines can go and the walkway and use the higher ground and railing as a cover while having line of sight to both entrances, the hive and the eggs. On the other hand it is a good starting place for marines.
Flight control also favors marines more than aliens and data core favours aliens.
Imagine two teams having a match and team starting from flight as marines and team 2 starting from the old marine start as aliens. The outcome is pretty clear. Marines send 3-4 rushing to the hive while 1-2 build all the safe RTs on the other side of the map. Marines win.
In the next round team 2 starts from atrium as marines and team 1 starts from DC as aliens. Team 1 takes control of the vents easily and team 2 never gets out of the base.
There you had a match where the random spawns favored the team 1 a lot. Of course in a real setting many other things could happen, but i just used these examples to point out the imbalances.
Regardless of balance problems Summit is not very fun map for random starts because the rounds with short distance between starting positions makes the game a deathmatch where the outcome of one combat situation usually decides the outcome of the game.
I think it is obvious that both Tram nor Summit can't work with random spawns in their current forms. Even with reworked rooms they would not be the best maps to take use of random spawns because of their layout.
Zeikko's concerns are right and let me assure everybody that the competitive scene will disable any random-all locations on maps that aren't balanced appropriately for it. Let's hope mappers have the wherewithal to sort this.
ArgathorJoin Date: 2011-07-18Member: 110942Members, Squad Five Blue
edited January 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1895176:date=Jan 17 2012, 06:05 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Jan 17 2012, 06:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1895176"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't see a problem with random starts yet. If very close random starts create overly deathmatch games, then we we'll address it either in the map/start, or in by constraining with a minimum distance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1895737:date=Jan 19 2012, 11:22 AM:name=pSyk0mAn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (pSyk0mAn @ Jan 19 2012, 11:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1895737"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd be interested in some youtube videos of pcws/games, where close team spawns have, in your opinion, ruined the game. Sure, the early game is vastly different, if you have close spawn locations, but in the mid/late game with a 2nd hive, marine expansion/phasegate this shouldn't be a problem anymore, because then it's basicly the same situation as with opposite starting locations. I'm not saying it's working fine right now, but the game is still changing and these things can be adressed in other ways. Would be a shame to get rid of parts of the random spawn system. I'm also recounting playing a lot of cool games/gathers/pcws in NS1 maps that, due to their layout, had a (base-)rush hive. It wasn't that big a deal, both teams usually tried to ignore the res node in between and spread out along the other side of the map.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am not the only member of the competitive community slightly dismayed by the obvious lack in understanding of map related balance from the games creator and an official mapper.
Using ns2_summit as an example, even if you use minimum distance, if the marine team starts in flight control it allows the aliens to far more easily than normal trap the marines in their base. Both exits for marines have overhead vents/easy hiding places from which to ambush marines. It is simply not a valid starting point for marines.
As a more specific example, if a marine is coming out of FC towards Crevice, as they get to the end of the hallway they need to do 3 things at exactly the same moment:
1) Look up and right to check the vent.
2) Look directly up to check the high ceiling.
3) Look left to check the wall/steps.
Having such a vulnerable point right outside of a base is ridiculous.
edit for clarification: Maps need to be designed with specific starting criteria in mind and then stick to it. If you want random starts, design a map for them.
Comments
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->if (server.randomSpawns) {
alienSpawn = rand.nextInt(1,4)
do
marineSpawn = rand.nextInt(1,4)
until (marineSpawn != alienSpawn)
} else {
alienSpawn = 1
marineSpawn = 2
}
powerDown(nodesWithLabel("spawn1"));
spawnAliens(alienSpawn)
spawnMarines(marineSpawn)<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
You get the idea. Anything would be possible, but specifically the solution would be tailored to map makers (albeit with some scripting knowledge).
Currently you can make static spawns, all random, whatever screnario you like.
I would like to see the current maps get edited starting positions, due to both teams spawning at same locations does simply not work.
Both teams being able to spawn at the same location is not viable, due to layouts have to be designed for whatever team spawns there.
Currently you can make static spawns, all random, whatever screnario you like.
I would like to see the current maps get edited starting positions, due to both teams spawning at same locations does simply not work.
Both teams being able to spawn at the same location is not viable, due to layouts have to be designed for whatever team spawns there.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's easier to do with a six tech map ==> set two random alien starts close together, set two random marine starts close together, two techs unassigned in between as non-starts. So in future, map designers have to consider the vent systems for the tech locations when starting a map.
I really like the constraining with a minimum distance idea, infact it was my first though on how to solve this when the random start first got implemented.
I have stated the problems with random starts in the topic, they should be rather obvious.
It is just not suitable to have both teams be able to spawn at the same location due to map design(vents).
It's a problem both for publics and competetive play, you need to address it.
You could balance summit around both teams being able to spawn at two different locations, and across each other, but that would take alot of reworking the map to get the game flow right.
Whenever we play summit in pcws at the moment, we disable the random starts because it's <i>that</i> bad.
Try to listen to the players that actually play the game, and play it competetively.
Why?
Due to vent systems on maps; aliens need them to get around the map from their spawns, and marine spawns needs to NOT have vents.
Alien spawns should be alien favoured, marine spawns should be marine favoured.
The current random spawns destroys that, even if a distance requirement was introduced.
The only way to correct this balance issue is to set starting locations accordingly.
Also, the current random spawns is definitly subject to change, it was a very risky move, and obviously doesn't work as it should.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Er, none of that is important.
Alien spawn is alien favored because the aliens spawn there, marine spawn is marine favoured because marines spawn there.
Kill an alien in marine spawn, it takes said alien let's say, 30 seconds to get back to that point.
Kill a marine in marine spawn, it takes said marine 10-15 seconds to get back to that point.
Meaning, marines outnumber aliens 2-1 at their spawn.
Vents are a bit of flavour, but ultimately unimportant. Aside from the odd bit of vent sniping (which is a problem in and of itself, not a problem with spawn points having vents) having a vent in marine start doesn't affect anything. Stick a sentry turret in front of it if it bothers you. It's vents IN GENERAL that are interesting, they are powerful as a tool to get around the map, but that means they are powerful as a network, not as a single access route into a particular room. They allow aliens to move unexpectedly, the lone vent into marine start is not an unexpected attack direction, it's the first thing you cover with a sentry gun because it's the one place that a single sentry can actually cover.
Vents work when you use them to allow strikes at a large area, they serve to negate the concept of a front line for the light alien classes. Their strength is in the fact that marines with 2 bases and 3 outlying extractors cannot truly lock down their territory, and anywhere in that territory is vulnerable to attack, and that will be true no matter where the aliens or marines start as long as the map has a vent network, designed to allow vent access from one side of the map to the other.
Vent access in a particular room? Not that important honestly, unless you make it a major feature of the room like say, a room with double res nodes, or a room with lots of weldable doors/shoot-through walls (marine only). You could certainly try adding marine or alien favoring rooms to a map, but spawn points don't need to be such rooms.
This is an extremely narrow-minded statement and leads to a very ill-conceived conclusion.
It's a wonder that you can ignore the importance of map design simply because of the natural respawn-time advantage. There is not a single respectable NS1 map (except maybe ns_caged?) that suffers from alien-biased vents in marine start. In fact, mappers overwhelmingly tend to remove any vents in map updates. Eclipse, veil, bast and ayumi (though unoffically in ayumi's case) have all been reworked to remove vents. This says a lot about the importance of vents and starting locations. It's quite absurd to claim that they just add flavour. In NS2, vents aren't limited to confining combat advantages to aliens which they do well enough as it is. It makes the already cheesy and powerful base-rush that much more of an option too.
<!--quoteo(post=1894813:date=Jan 16 2012, 01:26 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jan 16 2012, 01:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1894813"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro--><b>Just give the mapper more control over starting points.</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:#00DD00--><span style="color:#00DD00"><!--/coloro-->> The mapper can specify a tech point as "potential marine start" and/or "potential alien start".<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:red--><span style="color:red"><!--/coloro-->Using "minimum distance" is a really fickle, inflexible, and unpredictable way of achieving the same results.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If they need even more control than that, then:
<!--quoteo(post=1894813:date=Jan 16 2012, 01:26 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jan 16 2012, 01:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1894813"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--coloro:#00DD00--><span style="color:#00DD00"><!--/coloro-->You could go even further and have dependencies.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:#00BB00--><span style="color:#00BB00"><!--/coloro-->> The mapper can specify that if x is marine start, then y and z must not be alien start.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Or:
<!--coloro:#00BB00--><span style="color:#00BB00"><!--/coloro-->> The mapper can specify that if x is marine start, then y and z may be alien start.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Clearly, for reasons discussed already, you wouldn't want to put a marine start in a tech point room accessible from plenty of vents, unless you wanted to make it particularly difficult for the marines.
FOR EXAMPLE:
on summit, the route between ventilation and data core should have a door between the stairs and ventilation, and the main route should be the crossroads one (the onos friendly route).
It makes it fun even if it is DMish
But harimau nailed it by pointing out it should be just a mapping decision.
he also nailed it by mentioning it could be a server option for fixed spawns.
I could see fixed spawns being a league thing.
good commentary harimau
A great example of how this worked was in Quake II. The flag called "Spawn Furthest" would allow server operators to have people spawn at a location furthest away from their death location. The funny thing is that it was a bit counter-productive, as smart players who made the kill would simply just know where their enemy would respawn if the flag was enabled. This doesn't matter for NS2, so it shouldn't be a problem.
I think what it comes down to is for marines and aliens alike to scout out their enemies' locations so that they can prepare for such types of combat.
So the game would choose a random start location for the marines from among those tech points marked as 'potential marine start', then a random start location for the aliens from among the remaining tech points marked as 'potential alien start'.
A mapper could do the classic NS thing and have only one marine start, and several potential alien starts.
Or the mapper could have one marine start and one alien start.
Or the mapper could have all the potential marine starts and potential alien starts be the same.
Or some other configuration, it's up to them.
It can be dynamic, it can be static, it can be bits of both; it's up to the mapper's intentions.
It's already up to the mapper to specify the use of each tech point. When he places the enity in his map, he has four options to choose from:
Either Team Random Start
Marine-Only Random Start
Alien-Only Random Start
Do not use as random start.
These options are fine and cover all possible permutations, the issue is currently ALL the maps in use were designed before random starts were implemented. Random starts are not broken, you just don't yet have any maps designed to properly take advantage of them.
That is all.
Either Team Random Start
Marine-Only Random Start
Alien-Only Random Start
Do not use as random start.
These options are fine and cover all possible permutations, the issue is currently ALL the maps in use were designed before random starts were implemented. Random starts are not broken, you just don't yet have any maps designed to properly take advantage of them.
That is all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--coloro:#aadd00--><span style="color:#aadd00"><!--/coloro-->Ah, good to hear, I wasn't aware that was properly set up. Pretty much sums that up then, this isn't an issue.
I might as well ask:
Am I correct in my recalling that you can't custom set what the color,dimness or behavior of the powered-down state of a room is on a map?
I admit I haven't looked into this in a while. That's another one if so I'm hoping will become up to the mapper.
Edit: To be clear on "behavior" I mean sequences like the slow throb it currently has.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
I might as well ask:
Am I correct in my recalling that you can't custom set what the color,dimness or behavior of the powered-down state of a room is on a map?
I admit I haven't looked into this in a while. That's another one if so I'm hoping will become up to the mapper.
Edit: To be clear on "behavior" I mean sequences like the slow throb it currently has.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can't edit the red overlay light and it's pulses, but when you design the map, you specify lights attached to the power node, and lights which are not attached. Logically, lights not attached are always on, and lights attached to the grid go on or off as related to the state of the powernode during the game.
The red pulsing overlay is laid on top of the lighting, I believe as a kind of post process, although I may be wrong on that point.
Awkward start positions will encourage relocations. Which is something many people would like to see more anyway.
Either Team Random Start
Marine-Only Random Start
Alien-Only Random Start
Do not use as random start.
These options are fine and cover all possible permutations, the issue is currently ALL the maps in use were designed before random starts were implemented. Random starts are not broken, you just don't yet have any maps designed to properly take advantage of them.
That is all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Really? I didn't know that.
In that case, we should take it up with the mappers in the mapping forum.
It's a wonder that you can ignore the importance of map design simply because of the natural respawn-time advantage. There is not a single respectable NS1 map (except maybe ns_caged?) that suffers from alien-biased vents in marine start. In fact, mappers overwhelmingly tend to remove any vents in map updates. Eclipse, veil, bast and ayumi (though unoffically in ayumi's case) have all been reworked to remove vents. This says a lot about the importance of vents and starting locations. It's quite absurd to claim that they just add flavour. In NS2, vents aren't limited to confining combat advantages to aliens which they do well enough as it is. It makes the already cheesy and powerful base-rush that much more of an option too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+9000
<!--quoteo(post=1895526:date=Jan 18 2012, 04:35 PM:name=reaven)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (reaven @ Jan 18 2012, 04:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1895526"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I haven't read the whole thread so I don't know if something like this has been mentioned. I think that a way to balance random spawn would be that if the two teams spawns are too close, the section between them could be closed in some way to prevent base rushing early on. Like putting some gates that in that case would be closed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why have these temporary walls(which is out of place btw.), when you can fix the map in 2 minutes in the map editor?
In that case, we should take it up with the mappers in the mapping forum.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yea well, I also stated that earlier in the thread.
Also, doing so doesn't help much, as it is ultimately Charlie that have made this decision and forces it on all official maps.
It ruins the maps.
It wouldn't be out of place, as the maps would be modified for that matter. And what do you mean by fix the maps in 2 minutes, to remove the random spawns altogether? Because that defiles the purpose of my suggestion.
I think random spawns greatly add to the gameplay and is worth fixing and spending time on, although, I would make it a server based option anyway.
Is that even true? Does it say that in the mapping guidelines?
Sure, the early game is vastly different, if you have close spawn locations, but in the mid/late game with a 2nd hive, marine expansion/phasegate this shouldn't be a problem anymore, because then it's basicly the same situation as with opposite starting locations.
I'm not saying it's working fine right now, but the game is still changing and these things can be adressed in other ways. Would be a shame to get rid of parts of the random spawn system.
I'm also recounting playing a lot of cool games/gathers/pcws in NS1 maps that, due to their layout, had a (base-)rush hive. It wasn't that big a deal, both teams usually tried to ignore the res node in between and spread out along the other side of the map.
Sure, the early game is vastly different, if you have close spawn locations, but in the mid/late game with a 2nd hive, marine expansion/phasegate this shouldn't be a problem anymore, because then it's basicly the same situation as with opposite starting locations.
I'm not saying it's working fine right now, but the game is still changing and these things can be adressed in other ways. Would be a shame to get rid of parts of the random spawn system.
I'm also recounting playing a lot of cool games/gathers/pcws in NS1 maps that, due to their layout, had a (base-)rush hive. It wasn't that big a deal, both teams usually tried to ignore the res node in between and spread out along the other side of the map.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If i remember right we as team Archaea have only played two scrims in Summit with random starts. This happened shortly after they were introduced. Both of them were farces and after that we have played our matches in ns2_turtle and modified version of Summit that has fixed spawns.
Earlier i didn't take part to this discussion because i know mappers already have all the tools needed to tweak the random spawns and I thought that tram and summit with random spawns was just to test the random spawns initially and would be disabled later. But now that i've read that pSyk0mAn and Flayra don't think there's a problem i have to say couple of words.
Random spawns are fine for public play because it gives more variety to the map and balance between rounds is not a problem. But in competetive setting the balance between each round is a crucial factor. This means that all spawn combinations should have equal chances of victory for both sides. Currently this is not the case at all in Summit. For example Atrium is a very good starting tech point for aliens because of the vents and terrible starting location for marines for the same reason. Aliens get a huge advantage by using the vents to backstab the marines or circumvent marine defences and attack their base unnoticed.
Also the room where marines used to start (can't remember the name now) is terrible starting location for aliens because marines can go and the walkway and use the higher ground and railing as a cover while having line of sight to both entrances, the hive and the eggs. On the other hand it is a good starting place for marines.
Flight control also favors marines more than aliens and data core favours aliens.
Imagine two teams having a match and team starting from flight as marines and team 2 starting from the old marine start as aliens. The outcome is pretty clear. Marines send 3-4 rushing to the hive while 1-2 build all the safe RTs on the other side of the map. Marines win.
In the next round team 2 starts from atrium as marines and team 1 starts from DC as aliens. Team 1 takes control of the vents easily and team 2 never gets out of the base.
There you had a match where the random spawns favored the team 1 a lot.
Of course in a real setting many other things could happen, but i just used these examples to point out the imbalances.
Regardless of balance problems Summit is not very fun map for random starts because the rounds with short distance between starting positions makes the game a deathmatch where the outcome of one combat situation usually decides the outcome of the game.
I think it is obvious that both Tram nor Summit can't work with random spawns in their current forms. Even with reworked rooms they would not be the best maps to take use of random spawns because of their layout.
<!--quoteo(post=1895737:date=Jan 19 2012, 11:22 AM:name=pSyk0mAn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (pSyk0mAn @ Jan 19 2012, 11:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1895737"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd be interested in some youtube videos of pcws/games, where close team spawns have, in your opinion, ruined the game.
Sure, the early game is vastly different, if you have close spawn locations, but in the mid/late game with a 2nd hive, marine expansion/phasegate this shouldn't be a problem anymore, because then it's basicly the same situation as with opposite starting locations.
I'm not saying it's working fine right now, but the game is still changing and these things can be adressed in other ways. Would be a shame to get rid of parts of the random spawn system.
I'm also recounting playing a lot of cool games/gathers/pcws in NS1 maps that, due to their layout, had a (base-)rush hive. It wasn't that big a deal, both teams usually tried to ignore the res node in between and spread out along the other side of the map.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am not the only member of the competitive community slightly dismayed by the obvious lack in understanding of map related balance from the games creator and an official mapper.
Using ns2_summit as an example, even if you use minimum distance, if the marine team starts in flight control it allows the aliens to far more easily than normal trap the marines in their base. Both exits for marines have overhead vents/easy hiding places from which to ambush marines. It is simply not a valid starting point for marines.
As a more specific example, if a marine is coming out of FC towards Crevice, as they get to the end of the hallway they need to do 3 things at exactly the same moment:
1) Look up and right to check the vent.
2) Look directly up to check the high ceiling.
3) Look left to check the wall/steps.
Having such a vulnerable point right outside of a base is ridiculous.
edit for clarification:
Maps need to be designed with specific starting criteria in mind and then stick to it. If you want random starts, design a map for them.