Random spawns
swalk
Say hello to my little friend. Join Date: 2011-01-20 Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
Say hello to my little friend. Join Date: 2011-01-20 Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
<div class="IPBDescription">And what it does to the game at the moment</div>Let me take ns2_summit as an example, even though alot of the same problems are evident on ns2_tram as well.
Whenever aliens and marines spawn at tech points close to each other (example; sub access and data core).
The running times between the spawns are very small, and it causes alot of 1-2minute games, especially with the Hive/CC health nerfs.
Due to the very short running times between the spawns, it creates a very deathmatchy feel instead of an RTS/FPS feel.
Games are very likely to be decided within the first minute or two.
If you kill most of the opposite team early on, it heavily invites a baserush, which in many cases are game ending.
This issue could be solved with a distance requirement as suggested on the forums lots of times.
However, due to the layout of the maps, vent systems, etc. balance is impossible to achieve, with these random spawns.
Let me give you an example, aliens spawn in sub access and marines in atrium, marine spawn have lots of vents leading into the base.
Aliens dont, which they should have.
Also, with a distance requirement you have eliminated the "random" in "random spawns", ie; you know where your enemy spawned right away.
I really like the feature of random spawns, however it doesn't work at all on the existing maps.
And it will always be a balancing issue due to the asymmetric teams ie.: ranged vs melee.
Aliens need vents close to their spawn, marines need less options for aliens near their spawn.
Alien areas need to be a bit more alien friendly, where marine areas need to be a bit more marine favoured.
I think the solution is to change the maps to have indivual situations depending on map layout.
So summit would be static spawns like in previous versions, which is the way summit works best, without any doubts.
Maybe with alot of reworking the map, FC(m) vs DC(a)/Sub(m) vs Atrium(a) might be the way to properly implement random spawns into summit.
Tram however, have room for aliens spawning between two random locations, Alien start or Server room. Static marine spawn.
Mineshaft however, needs to be static spawns, due to base-to-base distances. Cave(a) vs Operations(m)
This solution is pretty easy, it can be done by anyone in the map editor, but the solution needs to be implemented into the vanilla game.
With new maps coming you could have lots of different screnarios.
Some could be like the old NS1 system, static marine spawn, alien random spawn between 3 hives.
Others could have static spawns, or both teams having two different locations to spawn at, at opposite sides of the map.
Give me, and UWE your thoughts on these evident problems with random spawns.
This is a perfect example of why CC/hive hp nerfs and vents in marine starts are a bad design(go to 3 minutes):
<center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/VOhmPGddK1k"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/VOhmPGddK1k" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center>
Add that the aliens could have spawned even closer to the marines, and you unbalanced the game even further..
..oh wait, they already can.
Whenever aliens and marines spawn at tech points close to each other (example; sub access and data core).
The running times between the spawns are very small, and it causes alot of 1-2minute games, especially with the Hive/CC health nerfs.
Due to the very short running times between the spawns, it creates a very deathmatchy feel instead of an RTS/FPS feel.
Games are very likely to be decided within the first minute or two.
If you kill most of the opposite team early on, it heavily invites a baserush, which in many cases are game ending.
This issue could be solved with a distance requirement as suggested on the forums lots of times.
However, due to the layout of the maps, vent systems, etc. balance is impossible to achieve, with these random spawns.
Let me give you an example, aliens spawn in sub access and marines in atrium, marine spawn have lots of vents leading into the base.
Aliens dont, which they should have.
Also, with a distance requirement you have eliminated the "random" in "random spawns", ie; you know where your enemy spawned right away.
I really like the feature of random spawns, however it doesn't work at all on the existing maps.
And it will always be a balancing issue due to the asymmetric teams ie.: ranged vs melee.
Aliens need vents close to their spawn, marines need less options for aliens near their spawn.
Alien areas need to be a bit more alien friendly, where marine areas need to be a bit more marine favoured.
I think the solution is to change the maps to have indivual situations depending on map layout.
So summit would be static spawns like in previous versions, which is the way summit works best, without any doubts.
Maybe with alot of reworking the map, FC(m) vs DC(a)/Sub(m) vs Atrium(a) might be the way to properly implement random spawns into summit.
Tram however, have room for aliens spawning between two random locations, Alien start or Server room. Static marine spawn.
Mineshaft however, needs to be static spawns, due to base-to-base distances. Cave(a) vs Operations(m)
This solution is pretty easy, it can be done by anyone in the map editor, but the solution needs to be implemented into the vanilla game.
With new maps coming you could have lots of different screnarios.
Some could be like the old NS1 system, static marine spawn, alien random spawn between 3 hives.
Others could have static spawns, or both teams having two different locations to spawn at, at opposite sides of the map.
Give me, and UWE your thoughts on these evident problems with random spawns.
This is a perfect example of why CC/hive hp nerfs and vents in marine starts are a bad design(go to 3 minutes):
<center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/VOhmPGddK1k"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/VOhmPGddK1k" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center>
Add that the aliens could have spawned even closer to the marines, and you unbalanced the game even further..
..oh wait, they already can.
Comments
The balance implications of random/changing start positions on the current set of maps render the feature useless. For random/changing start positions to work maps need to be designed with this in mind.
And while the 'balancing' of the teams is not finalized (in any way) I cannot see any reason why we/they/UWE would disinherit this concept.
In truth, as the game stands, Team1/marines need only to defend their 1 base and tech up then launch a siege operative;
A robo for a few turrets, an ARC. Hold out - get upgrades, weapons (observatory at some stage) then move out.
Regardless of where the marine start is this method cannot fail in an evenly (skill) matched game.
especially because how it gives a bit of limit to mapping.
You have to design the map to have enough distance
wich does affect the layout a lot.
The only thing random spawn is needed is not to give balance, because it doesn't change
it to any worse or good, but to give some alteration to the gaming experience.
Since loads of the maps are played over and over again sooo many times it is good
to make different gaming experiences by changing the spawns yet playing the same awesome layouted maps.
And while the 'balancing' of the teams is not finalized (in any way) I cannot see any reason why we/they/UWE would disinherit this concept.
In truth, as the game stands, Team1/marines need only to defend their 1 base and tech up then launch a siege operative;
A robo for a few turrets, an ARC. Hold out - get upgrades, weapons (observatory at some stage) then move out.
Regardless of where the marine start is this method cannot fail in an evenly (skill) matched game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Going fast robotics and turrets is not the way to win.
My suggestion for you is to go watch some pcws, you can watch some of our pcws here:
<a href="http://www.duplexgaming.co.uk/forums/media/?sa=album;in=1" target="_blank">http://www.duplexgaming.co.uk/forums/media/?sa=album;in=1</a>
<!--quoteo(post=1894651:date=Jan 15 2012, 02:35 PM:name=Karko)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Karko @ Jan 15 2012, 02:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1894651"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't really think the distance requirement is necessary
especially because how it gives a bit of limit to mapping.
You have to design the map to have enough distance
wich does affect the layout a lot.
The only thing random spawn is needed is not to give balance, because it doesn't change
it to any worse or good, but to give some alteration to the gaming experience.
Since loads of the maps are played over and over again sooo many times it is good
to make different gaming experiences by changing the spawns yet playing the same awesome layouted maps.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This can be taken into account when making new maps.
As it's pretty obvious what the problems are with both teams spawning at the same locations randomly.
I love random spawns, but <b>not</b> in the scenario where both teams can start at the same location.
Thats because you don't make sense.
AND yes, I do resent you calling my post silly.. You ASKED people to give their thoughts.
AND yes, I do resent you calling my post silly.. You ASKED people to give their thoughts.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Please don't go there.
I asked people to give their thoughts on the obvious problems that I wrote about in the OP.
Those make perfect sense, maybe you should read it again.
You're like one of those kids that have a tantrum in the super-market isles when 'mommy' doesn't buy you what you want, aren't you swalk?
You're like one of those kids that have a tantrum in the super-market isles when 'mommy' doesn't buy you what you want, aren't you swalk?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Am I at any point in this topic saying that I want to have random spawns scrapped? No. Try reading it next time.
I want different maps, with fitting screnarios for them.
No map will ever fit the scenario where both teams can spawn at the same location, due to vents and map layout.
I think you should keep this objectively, instead of making personal attacks.
New suggestion for you; sing.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kmv3WlKa6U8" target="_blank">Anger Management</a>
You're like one of those kids that have a tantrum in the super-market isles when 'mommy' doesn't buy you what you want, aren't you swalk?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Perhaps instead of getting offended over the internet you should spend that time trying to understand the issue under discussion.
<b>Map layout is a huge part of balance</b>, using ns2_summit as an example the layout has been made (and balanced around) fixed starting positions. When you add random spawns to this, it can (if teams are not placed in their original positions) result in advantages for one team or another. This is easily exploited by organised teams in pcw's but still effects public matches too.
Problem solved.
Problem solved.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Try reading the topic again, this is not the solution.
Why?
Due to vent systems on maps; aliens need them to get around the map from their spawns, and marine spawns needs to NOT have vents.
Alien spawns should be alien favoured, marine spawns should be marine favoured.
The current random spawns destroys that, even if a distance requirement was introduced.
The only way to correct this balance issue is to set starting locations accordingly.
Also, the current random spawns is definitly subject to change, it was a very risky move, and obviously doesn't work as it should.
<b>Map layout is a huge part of balance</b>, using ns2_summit as an example the layout has been made (and balanced around) fixed starting positions. When you add random spawns to this, it can (if teams are not placed in their original positions) result in advantages for one team or another. This is easily exploited by organised teams in pcw's but still effects public matches too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But this isn't about making it equal for each team. It's about making it so team2/Kharaa never have the upper hand.
In the event that the bases are close, don't the node in-between the 2. Stand back from the entrance way. Every game needs a new strategy..
I understand fully.. Maybe YOU don't understand the concept of BETA
POINT BEING;
Aliens don't have any good 'endgame'. That is to say all organic matter doesn't stand up to the brunt of ARC and heavy-weapons.
In the event that the bases are close, don't the node in-between the 2. Stand back from the entrance way. Every game needs a new strategy..
I understand fully.. Maybe YOU don't understand the concept of BETA
POINT BEING;
Aliens don't have any good 'endgame'. That is to say all organic matter doesn't stand up to the brunt of ARC and heavy-weapons.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is about making the game balance right, or in this particular case; the maps.
It have nothing to do with the tech of any of the teams, so your points about endgame units and research paths makes no sense.
Maybe it's you who don't understand the concept of beta. Developers release patches, players give feedback on features.
That is exactly what I am doing here.
I agree with swalk on this one, although the think the solution is already available, at least to some degree. At least I know that the mapper can decide whether or not to have random spawns of fixed spawns on his map. Summit was built for fixed spawns and should remain that way. It just isn't suitable for random spawns. With the proper maps however, random spawns are a great feature. It would be even better if one could differentiate further, if the mapper could decide to only make one of the teams have a random spawn -- like NS1.
That would mean the mapper has four options: fixed spawns, random spawns, random alien spawns, random marine spawns. Should allow for greater freedom of design and would give us maps that play drastically different, not just due to different layouts but also due to spawn rules.
As for what to do about this, be patient.
We have many community players creating new and exciting maps. Rest assured UWE and the mappers all understand the balance issue in random spawning locations.
Cheers,
-Scott.C
You can't compare those games like that.
However personally i do love the dynamic spawn system.
Should we fix marines and have aliens spawn randomly?
I would say no to this, because as it is the team that rushes first has the highest chance of winning as it is now.
Giving the aliens a 100% sure indication of where marines will be, while marines don't know this about aliens seams a bit silly to me, as often times an equal number of aliens beats an equel number of marines..
So that would make the issue for marines even bigger at gamestart.
In my opinion there are a few ways to solve this.
Distance check, so aliens and marines spawn on opposite sides of the map, while this takes away part of the randomness it still allows for different games on the same map.
problems: vents would need slight editing for this, or random starts in general, old alien start was a large number of vents compared to old marine start.
Better base chokes, in games like SC2 people can spawn right next to eachother and its fine, it just changes the playstyle of the players, this however relies heavily on the maps being fairly large (on a 4v4 map with 2 players, even when spawning next to eachother the distances are still fairly large) and on the fact that players have a choke they can try to hold.
This would however not translate so well to NS2 as making to managable chokes would make it impossible to breach bases (turret spam, hydra/whip spam), endgame tech might be able to change that but still.
problems: read above
Larger maps with a layout more suited for randomized starts, well this is fairly self explanatory, bigger maps with a layout that compliments randomized starts would pretty much solve it.
How would those maps look?
Well, not exactly sure, this would need some experimentation, im guessing taking a look at some SC2 maps would also help, sure its a different game but the maps have usually pretty good layouts with direct but dangerous assault routes and sneaky but long backdoors that can be exploited.
problems: that still doesn't solve it for the current maps
Last something i would personally really like, adding dynamic paths.
What i mean with this is that you make the maps randomly generate itself in a certain degree at mapstart.
With this I'm talking about stuff like blocked routes and the likes, say you have 5 ways to get from point A to point B, at load 1 you could have path 1,2,3 open, load 2 could be 2,4,5, load 3 1,3,5, ...
I'm not sure in how far this would be possible in spark but I'm basing this of of the source engine, mappers can block paths with entities and have your triggers determine at map start which ones would be rendered and which shouldn't.
L4D in singleplayer mode would be a good example of this system in a minor degree.
In NS2 this could be done with broken doors, caved in tunnels, cave ins that open a hole in a wall leading to a new tunnel,...
Problems: still doesn't apply to the current maps, don't think the tech do something like this is there.
In that sense, NS2 would need some kind of built in match system where each random start is played twice for the team change. Otherwise I could never see random start maps ever becoming staple clan match maps.
I really like this idea. If this wasnt the case there is another option that allows for player choice while mimicking dynamic paths as Dragon suggested.
Allow each allowable base area be to be modified by the comm for a 10 second or so period. Allow doors, vents, and entry ways to be open and closed as the comm see fit. Alien comms would open up vents while marine comms would close them (maybe, JP could offer some opportunities but a long term plan.) I could see it working easily enough. Comm jumps in and sees his/her base illuminated with yellow for those items that can be altered. Vents can all be closed or opened but entries and doors there would have to be a limit.
It would allow another layer of strategy per room and a surprise for the other team. It gives the player the control they crave to custom their strat to them. If you arent a fan of so much choice there could be preset templates ranging from 1-5 allowing quick choice for new comms or a free mode for those Tsun Tsu's out there.
I am always in favor of more choice and options hen feasible. If i cant chose my spawn point, why not let the comm customize their base? This could even be done in the warm up phase to allow for less pressure.
Just an idea =)
Allow each allowable base area be to be modified by the comm for a 10 second or so period. Allow doors, vents, and entry ways to be open and closed as the comm see fit. Alien comms would open up vents while marine comms would close them (maybe, JP could offer some opportunities but a long term plan.) I could see it working easily enough. Comm jumps in and sees his/her base illuminated with yellow for those items that can be altered. Vents can all be closed or opened but entries and doors there would have to be a limit.
It would allow another layer of strategy per room and a surprise for the other team. It gives the player the control they crave to custom their strat to them. If you arent a fan of so much choice there could be preset templates ranging from 1-5 allowing quick choice for new comms or a free mode for those Tsun Tsu's out there.
I am always in favor of more choice and options hen feasible. If i cant chose my spawn point, why not let the comm customize their base? This could even be done in the warm up phase to allow for less pressure.
Just an idea =)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like the idea of vents being opened/closed, maybe this could relate to the powernodes?
So;
<ul><li>A socketed powernode would have open vents.</li><li>A powered room would have closed vents.</li><li>Unpowered room would have open vents.</li></ul>
Maybe require welders to weld the vents after a room is powered.
Have welded vents in/near marine spawns from gamestart.
You don't seem to have any grasp of how NS2 plays out, I'm sorry, you need to play more.
It is about making the game balance right, or in this particular case; the maps.
It have nothing to do with the tech of any of the teams, so your points about endgame units and research paths makes no sense.
Maybe it's you who don't understand the concept of beta. Developers release patches, players give feedback on features.
That is exactly what I am doing here.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're an idiot that has nothing to contribute. All you do is praise people that agree with you and insult people that differ. I can't be stuffed trying to explain something to you since you DON'T want to understand, evern if you COULD. Ignore the ignorant.
<!--coloro:#00DD00--><span style="color:#00DD00"><!--/coloro-->> The mapper can specify a tech point as "potential marine start" and/or "potential alien start".<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Obviously, some tech points could be:
1) Neither a marine start or an alien start.
2) A marine start only.
3) An alien start only.
4) Potentially a marine or alien start.
If he wishes, the mapper can create only one marine start and only one alien start.
If he wishes, the mapper can create only one marine start and several potential alien starts.
If he wishes, the mapper can create several potential marine starts and only one alien start.
If he wishes, the mapper can create several potential marine starts and several potential alien starts, some or all of them overlapping.
<!--coloro:#00DD00--><span style="color:#00DD00"><!--/coloro-->You could go even further and have dependencies.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:#00BB00--><span style="color:#00BB00"><!--/coloro-->> The mapper can specify that if x is marine start, then y and z must not be alien start.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Or:
<!--coloro:#00BB00--><span style="color:#00BB00"><!--/coloro-->> The mapper can specify that if x is marine start, then y and z may be alien start.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
It becomes a consideration for the mapper (the one creating the playing field, according to the rules of the game) rather than the game designer (the one creating the rules of the game).
Through testing, the mapper can fix or omit bad combinations, improve less-than-satisfactory combinations, and introduce new combinations.
<!--coloro:red--><span style="color:red"><!--/coloro-->Using "minimum distance" is a really fickle, inflexible, and unpredictable way of achieving the same results.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro-->Also, if you still want teams to be able to choose starting positions<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> (which I think would be nice)<!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro-->, you add a server option for random start or chosen start.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
This will still be dependent on what the mapper has chosen.
I think making a map that works with more than one mode/combination in mind is too difficult a task. I think it is more likely mappers will have to decide what spawning mode they want to use and base their map design around it. Eventually we will have maps covering all possibilities.
<!--quoteo(post=1894750:date=Jan 15 2012, 11:01 PM:name=measles)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (measles @ Jan 15 2012, 11:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1894750"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You're an idiot that has nothing to contribute. All you do is praise people that agree with you and insult people that differ. I can't be stuffed trying to explain something to you since you DON'T want to understand, evern if you COULD. Ignore the ignorant.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think you should apply for the playtester program, you would make a fine addition to the team.
Right, but the mappers themselves might not share your views, and would prefer to have the control. There's nothing stopping a mapper from simply specifying one marine start and one alien start. But I mean, with X number of combinations, you're essentially getting X number of maps with all the same assets.
So;
<ul><li>A socketed powernode would have open vents.</li><li>A powered room would have closed vents.</li><li>Unpowered room would have open vents.</li></ul>
Maybe require welders to weld the vents after a room is powered.
Have welded vents in/near marine spawns from gamestart.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is a good idea also. Add more importance to the power node and more strat. It would give the marine team some strats that would power nodes down in forward locations to allow better JPing.
Powered down nodes activate all ventilation systems to open by default to preserve air flow and habitation. (Unless welded shut).
What about when power nodes are down everything in the room powers down except the Marine RTs which go into a reserve power mode that increases production. It would at least give aliens a down side to dropping a room and not have it cripple marines so badly. You have a RT that produces 1.5 better but it is located in a dark, "ventilated" (lol) room.
I think there are a lot of good ideas in this thread that would be simple enough fixes. Mine is a little involved lol but thank you Swalk for weeding out some easy fixes.
@measles - Just state you dont like it and let it be. Swalk was trying to brain storm on how to fix something he sees as a problem. It gets ideas flowing and others build onto good ideas making them better. Your rage posts just waste forum space and make me skip your name entirely when i read these forums. Let it be man =)
So;
<ul><li>A socketed powernode would have open vents.</li><li>A powered room would have closed vents.</li><li>Unpowered room would have open vents.</li></ul>
Maybe require welders to weld the vents after a room is powered.
Have welded vents in/near marine spawns from gamestart.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+ 1 for weldable vents, and vents that are already welded where marines start. Should give them enough time to get some kind of defense up.
This way we can have that "dummy vent" in RC connected to DC or something.
Also, maybe aliens should be able to block the vents with infestation(to counter JPs).