I don't know why but it doesn't tickle me. Maybe it's because it's not using the wall_lab set or similar. That sort of pinky fleshy tone just made Veil for me, as did EC.
As long as it plays like the original veil it'll be cool, because that way someone is bound to make an NS1 style NS2 mod so it can play like the original. 'cause NS2 gameplay won't suit it unless you make some drastic changes.
It feels like a different map with that lighting, feels like you are in the daytime in marine start, and nighttime in topo. Perhaps you could put some light bleeding from the adjacent room... or test some different colors, it just feels too different. The detailing is nice though.
fmponeJoin Date: 2011-07-05Member: 108086Members, Squad Five Blue
Textures come and go, but I see what you mean. It doesn't look remarkably like the old Veil, and if at the end of the process it feels less like Veil than a true remake would, I'll rename it. I understand the whole look of the original, I just don't feel totally interested in duplicating it with newer tech. Part of it is I don't feel I have the art assets to really do it totally faithfully anyway.
fmponeJoin Date: 2011-07-05Member: 108086Members, Squad Five Blue
edited October 2011
[code][/code]<!--quoteo(post=1878823:date=Oct 8 2011, 11:13 PM:name=Jonacrab)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jonacrab @ Oct 8 2011, 11:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1878823"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It feels like a different map with that lighting, feels like you are in the daytime in marine start, and nighttime in topo. Perhaps you could put some light bleeding from the adjacent room... or test some different colors, it just feels too different. The detailing is nice though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, I'll work on making it feel more unified. That's hard to get down, it'll take some time.
In a way it's a good thing, topo has too much of it's own thing going on right now, but that's good if I can level it off. Plus, you enter topo through the shady hallway, so the nighttime vibe feels sorta natural in game.
aeroripperJoin Date: 2005-02-25Member: 42471NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
I like what you're doing with marine start. I still don't like the daytime skybox, but I imagine you're constrained with what you have to work with currently. Hope you change your mind and go with a custom skybox closer to the original nighttime one. Sorry if I seem overcritical, but ns_veil was one of the most played maps I used to play with NS1 so i'm pretty biased with the looks of the original. You're doing some quality work and I imagine it is difficult to redo an old map while updating it to an engine 10+ years newer.
I like topo but I agree with others that its color scheme is a bit off. The place where you have the fan currently was originally a window looking out on the skybox IIRC. It doesn't seem like the right shade of blue either but maybe the custom artwork will help in that work with that.
fmponeJoin Date: 2011-07-05Member: 108086Members, Squad Five Blue
I'm going to spend some time re-lighting, to match the old Veil. I guess I'm in a difficult position, because you guys can tolerate geometry being different here and there, but it's too jarring and very off-putting for the lighting to twist in your mind, it's distracting. You want it to match the original roughly as well as the geometry does, and I think that makes sense. I'm going to do my best to make it work.
aeroripperJoin Date: 2005-02-25Member: 42471NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
edited October 2011
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->...I don't feel I have the art assets to really do it totally faithfully anyway...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think people will notice the textures set as much (at least, it doesn't bother me much. I think the current one you're using is ok). I think people are far more likely to notice the lighting and general flow of the map they remember instead of the old wall_lab set. It may be a good thing to have an updated NS2 look to your map anyways, while still keeping that old NS1 vibe that everyone remembers. Some areas will need look closer to the original to retain their identity while others you have a bit more artistic freedom. The reason why I liked the old skybox is because it could look SO GOOD re-envisioned with modern graphics and really tie the map lighting scheme together in areas that draw your eye to it (west skylights for example).
Imagine how good some of these skyboxes could look:
Maybe something like that mixed together with some of the stuff in the original NS1 skybox (antennae, mountains etc...)
There are so many windows why not give people something to actually look at out there? Anyways I'm sure you'll find something that works well. The real challenge is going to come from mixing NS1 and NS2 game play while still maintaining the feel of the original map. Might as well start with the way it was in NS1 and go from there as the beta evolves.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm going to spend some time re-lighting, to match the old Veil. I guess I'm in a difficult position, because you guys can tolerate geometry being different here and there, but it's too jarring and very off-putting for the lighting to twist in your mind, it's distracting. You want it to match the original roughly as well as the geometry does, and I think that makes sense. I'm going to do my best to make it work.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For some reference, you could probably look at other games that have remade old maps in a new game like:
-morpheus from unreal tournament -de_dust from counterstrike > cs:source -that one popular map from the original unreal tournament remade in UT3 that I can't remember. Pyramid?
That's all I can remember, but I'm sure they're plenty others around. Don't feel to pressured to get everything just right immediately, its fun to watch the map progress with the new engine. I imagine its a lot of hard work doing all of this in your free time with everyone having such exacting standards.
fmponeJoin Date: 2011-07-05Member: 108086Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1878844:date=Oct 9 2011, 01:45 AM:name=aeroripper)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (aeroripper @ Oct 9 2011, 01:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1878844"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think people will notice the textures set as much (at least, it doesn't bother me much. I think the current one you're using is ok). I think people are far more likely to notice the lighting and general flow of the map they remember instead of the old wall_lab set. It may be a good thing to have an updated NS2 look to your map anyways, while still keeping that old NS1 vibe that everyone remembers. Some areas will need look closer to the original to retain their identity while others you have a bit more artistic freedom. The reason why I liked the old skybox is because it could look SO GOOD re-envisioned with modern graphics and really tie the map lighting scheme together in areas that draw your eye to it (west skylights for example).
Imagine how good some of these skyboxes could look:
Maybe something like that mixed together with some of the stuff in the original NS1 skybox (antennae, mountains etc...)
There are so many windows why not give people something to actually look at out there? Anyways I'm sure you'll find something that works well. The real challenge is going to come from mixing NS1 and NS2 game play while still maintaining the feel of the original map. Might as well start with the way it was in NS1 and go from there as the beta evolves.
For some reference, you could probably look at other games that have remade old maps in a new game like:
-morpheus from unreal tournament -de_dust from counterstrike > cs:source -that one popular map from the original unreal tournament remade in UT3 that I can't remember. Pyramid?
That's all I can remember, but I'm sure they're plenty others around. Don't feel to pressured to get everything just right immediately, its fun to watch the map progress with the new engine. I imagine its a lot of hard work doing all of this in your free time with everyone having such exacting standards.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do you have the exact Veil skybox? Maybe you could post it and someone could just work from that. Would be nice!
I've always been inspired by Valve's take on de_dust. Sure it's not the original, and it doesn't have that lego-block style that just soothes the eyes so well, but it's a good and interesting take on the idea. You've got something old, you have to reinvent it, but retain that style. I think it's a double edged sword, in a lot of ways the work is done for you, in a lot of ways you've got to do things until you get it right.
Where I went wrong with this day-sky stuff is, it's not a superficial change. It's massive. It changes a lot of stuff about the map, and as we saw with topo, it's an across the board thing. You change one room that drastically, and you've no longer got the same map on your hands. That's why I'm going back now, that it's not too late. It's a good time.
And if people didn't have such exacting standards, that would mean they didn't care. Then it would be impossible to gather the interest to keep doing this in my free time. It's a lot of fun though, I've got screenshots of Veil open in one window, and the editor in another, and it's just a blast to keep pegging away until I get this Marine Spawn perfect. I love it :X
fmponeJoin Date: 2011-07-05Member: 108086Members, Squad Five Blue
edited October 2011
This should give you some idea of my workflow... comparing screen captures in ms paint... of course I had to delete all of my old lighting, just to get that clean slate
You're never going to make everybody happy - by trying to, all you will end up with is a ###### map. The daytime skybox was working - keep at it! Topo could be modified to make it look coherent with the rest of the map.
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited October 2011
Please don't take my sunshine away...
At least keep the sky box for now, until you've made up your mind, and have a night time sky box. Personally, I just love the high contrast and the amazing sunlight that make your map stand out from the rest.
<!--quoteo(post=1878868:date=Oct 9 2011, 06:36 AM:name=twiliteblue)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (twiliteblue @ Oct 9 2011, 06:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1878868"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Personally, I just love the high contrast and the amazing sunlight that make your map stand out from the rest.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
same here,
I love the contrast between the happy sunshine outside and the rough combat inside. And it just looks good
pSyk0mAnNerdish by NatureGermanyJoin Date: 2003-08-07Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
In that last shot the yellow of the orange lights is too strong imho. Slightly less green and/or more blue for the orange lights should probably work better with the red light, sunlight and the blueish white light, which all are more leaning towards blue than orange as you can see in the original veil shot.
aeroripperJoin Date: 2005-02-25Member: 42471NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Where I went wrong with this day-sky stuff is, it's not a superficial change. It's massive. It changes a lot of stuff about the map, and as we saw with topo, it's an across the board thing. You change one room that drastically, and you've no longer got the same map on your hands. That's why I'm going back now, that it's not too late. It's a good time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you introduce sunshine, all the rooms with windows will have to be changed and won't quite look as like the original lighting scheme. That workflow picture shows how good those richer colors look with a night skybox. Granted there's a little tweaking here and there but it looks pretty close the original.
Granted others like the sunshine better but I disagree and think night works better for the lighting scheme of the original map, and it looks cooler. I'm still looking for the actual ns_veil skybox texture in the old NS1 wads. I will post a pic when I find it but haven't had any luck yet with any of them. In the mean time if you decide to move forward with the night skybox, you could probably do a temporary one just filled with stars or something until the more final one is done.
Are you making the skybox yourself or are you adverse to using a pre-made one?
fmponeJoin Date: 2011-07-05Member: 108086Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1878912:date=Oct 9 2011, 12:49 PM:name=aeroripper)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (aeroripper @ Oct 9 2011, 12:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1878912"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you introduce sunshine, all the rooms with windows will have to be changed and won't quite look as like the original lighting scheme. That workflow picture shows how good those richer colors look with a night skybox. Granted there's a little tweaking here and there but it looks pretty close the original.
Granted others like the sunshine better but I disagree and think night works better for the lighting scheme of the original map, and it looks cooler. I'm still looking for the actual ns_veil skybox texture in the old NS1 wads. I will post a pic when I find it but haven't had any luck yet with any of them. In the mean time if you decide to move forward with the night skybox, you could probably do a temporary one just filled with stars or something until the more final one is done.
Are you making the skybox yourself or are you adverse to using a pre-made one?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ah thank you.
I'm not averse to using a pre-made one, but there aren't any that match either a bright daylight or a space skybox, so it's a wash
Why would anybody bother making an exact replica in another engine? There is potential here to make a ###### gorgeous-looking map, and you're all crying because it doesnt look <i><b>exactly-the-same-as-the-original</b></i>.
fmponeJoin Date: 2011-07-05Member: 108086Members, Squad Five Blue
The simplest solution here is to give both a shot, and see which is working best. I'm not fully convinced I can even replicate the Veil look as I go on, but I've taken a look at the ns.wad and I'm trying to make it work. We'll do a comparison.
Veil was simply a computer lab. The NS2 assets should allow for more original and more creative areas. Although don't lose the spirit, ethos or theme. No one seems to be asking for an exact replica marks, just the spirit and ethos to remain intact, sort of like the progression of the two faces/faceoff series in UT and how that has evolved.
Evil_bOb1Join Date: 2002-07-13Member: 938Members, Squad Five Blue
There is potential in day and in night. fmpone you're going to have to take a personal stand on what you want to do with this map. If you keep changing it when someone is not happy about something you'll end up with a schizophrenic map :p People might not like some decisions you've taken, but if the map is really good about what it tried to achieve, they will forgive you and learn to love what is.
fmponeJoin Date: 2011-07-05Member: 108086Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1878930:date=Oct 9 2011, 01:47 PM:name=Evil_bOb1)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Evil_bOb1 @ Oct 9 2011, 01:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1878930"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There is potential in day and in night. fmpone you're going to have to take a personal stand on what you want to do with this map. If you keep changing it when someone is not happy about something you'll end up with a schizophrenic map :p People might not like some decisions you've taken, but if the map is really good about what it tried to achieve, they will forgive you and learn to love what is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sure. That's right. I will have to take a personal stand. But it's not right to only go in one direction to test the waters, before I make that decision. I need to give myself, and also to you guys, a chance to see each with my best faith effort put forth. Then we can make a decision together.
Our collective judgement is better than mine alone, anyways.
I like where this map is going. Please keep it up! Either lighting theme is fine imo, but the new one feels a bit dark, even compared to the original one. :P Btw I hope you didn't change the corridor part with sun light, loved that one.
fmponeJoin Date: 2011-07-05Member: 108086Members, Squad Five Blue
edited October 2011
The real issue is that lighting ties directly to textures. Think about it, a red light on a blue wall looks a lot different than a red light on a green wall. There's no way around it.
It simply can't look just like the original Veil. But I'm glad I tried :)
Comments
<img src="http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/8299/topo1b.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/9278/topo2nr.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/7673/topo3y.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Thanks Hybrid :)
I always get nervous showing off new stuff, so here's the old stuff with polish
<img src="http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/3185/ms1q.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/6259/ms2i.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://img855.imageshack.us/img855/747/ms3a.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/244/ms4s.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/7893/ms5n.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
As long as it plays like the original veil it'll be cool, because that way someone is bound to make an NS1 style NS2 mod so it can play like the original. 'cause NS2 gameplay won't suit it unless you make some drastic changes.
Yeah, I'll work on making it feel more unified. That's hard to get down, it'll take some time.
In a way it's a good thing, topo has too much of it's own thing going on right now, but that's good if I can level it off. Plus, you enter topo through the shady hallway, so the nighttime vibe feels sorta natural in game.
I like topo but I agree with others that its color scheme is a bit off. The place where you have the fan currently was originally a window looking out on the skybox IIRC. It doesn't seem like the right shade of blue either but maybe the custom artwork will help in that work with that.
Would prefer to see a 'space view' - personal preference.
I don't think people will notice the textures set as much (at least, it doesn't bother me much. I think the current one you're using is ok). I think people are far more likely to notice the lighting and general flow of the map they remember instead of the old wall_lab set. It may be a good thing to have an updated NS2 look to your map anyways, while still keeping that old NS1 vibe that everyone remembers. Some areas will need look closer to the original to retain their identity while others you have a bit more artistic freedom. The reason why I liked the old skybox is because it could look SO GOOD re-envisioned with modern graphics and really tie the map lighting scheme together in areas that draw your eye to it (west skylights for example).
Imagine how good some of these skyboxes could look:
<img src="http://www.thegamecreators.com/products/SkyMATTERPack1/content/pack22_7.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://files.turbosquid.com/Preview/2010/12/03__04_26_00/Sky02.jpg9b1eccae-79f2-46db-b68d-15596867f769Larger.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Maybe something like that mixed together with some of the stuff in the original NS1 skybox (antennae, mountains etc...)
There are so many windows why not give people something to actually look at out there? Anyways I'm sure you'll find something that works well. The real challenge is going to come from mixing NS1 and NS2 game play while still maintaining the feel of the original map. Might as well start with the way it was in NS1 and go from there as the beta evolves.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm going to spend some time re-lighting, to match the old Veil. I guess I'm in a difficult position, because you guys can tolerate geometry being different here and there, but it's too jarring and very off-putting for the lighting to twist in your mind, it's distracting. You want it to match the original roughly as well as the geometry does, and I think that makes sense. I'm going to do my best to make it work.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For some reference, you could probably look at other games that have remade old maps in a new game like:
-morpheus from unreal tournament
-de_dust from counterstrike > cs:source
-that one popular map from the original unreal tournament remade in UT3 that I can't remember. Pyramid?
That's all I can remember, but I'm sure they're plenty others around. Don't feel to pressured to get everything just right immediately, its fun to watch the map progress with the new engine. I imagine its a lot of hard work doing all of this in your free time with everyone having such exacting standards.
Imagine how good some of these skyboxes could look:
<img src="http://www.thegamecreators.com/products/SkyMATTERPack1/content/pack22_7.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://files.turbosquid.com/Preview/2010/12/03__04_26_00/Sky02.jpg9b1eccae-79f2-46db-b68d-15596867f769Larger.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Maybe something like that mixed together with some of the stuff in the original NS1 skybox (antennae, mountains etc...)
There are so many windows why not give people something to actually look at out there? Anyways I'm sure you'll find something that works well. The real challenge is going to come from mixing NS1 and NS2 game play while still maintaining the feel of the original map. Might as well start with the way it was in NS1 and go from there as the beta evolves.
For some reference, you could probably look at other games that have remade old maps in a new game like:
-morpheus from unreal tournament
-de_dust from counterstrike > cs:source
-that one popular map from the original unreal tournament remade in UT3 that I can't remember. Pyramid?
That's all I can remember, but I'm sure they're plenty others around. Don't feel to pressured to get everything just right immediately, its fun to watch the map progress with the new engine. I imagine its a lot of hard work doing all of this in your free time with everyone having such exacting standards.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do you have the exact Veil skybox? Maybe you could post it and someone could just work from that. Would be nice!
I've always been inspired by Valve's take on de_dust. Sure it's not the original, and it doesn't have that lego-block style that just soothes the eyes so well, but it's a good and interesting take on the idea. You've got something old, you have to reinvent it, but retain that style. I think it's a double edged sword, in a lot of ways the work is done for you, in a lot of ways you've got to do things until you get it right.
Where I went wrong with this day-sky stuff is, it's not a superficial change. It's massive. It changes a lot of stuff about the map, and as we saw with topo, it's an across the board thing. You change one room that drastically, and you've no longer got the same map on your hands. That's why I'm going back now, that it's not too late. It's a good time.
And if people didn't have such exacting standards, that would mean they didn't care. Then it would be impossible to gather the interest to keep doing this in my free time. It's a lot of fun though, I've got screenshots of Veil open in one window, and the editor in another, and it's just a blast to keep pegging away until I get this Marine Spawn perfect. I love it :X
<img src="http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/9379/workflow.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
At least keep the sky box for now, until you've made up your mind, and have a night time sky box. Personally, I just love the high contrast and the amazing sunlight that make your map stand out from the rest.
same here,
I love the contrast between the happy sunshine outside and the rough combat inside.
And it just looks good
Slightly less green and/or more blue for the orange lights should probably work better with the red light, sunlight and the blueish white light, which all are more leaning towards blue than orange as you can see in the original veil shot.
If you introduce sunshine, all the rooms with windows will have to be changed and won't quite look as like the original lighting scheme. That workflow picture shows how good those richer colors look with a night skybox. Granted there's a little tweaking here and there but it looks pretty close the original.
Granted others like the sunshine better but I disagree and think night works better for the lighting scheme of the original map, and it looks cooler. I'm still looking for the actual ns_veil skybox texture in the old NS1 wads. I will post a pic when I find it but haven't had any luck yet with any of them. In the mean time if you decide to move forward with the night skybox, you could probably do a temporary one just filled with stars or something until the more final one is done.
Are you making the skybox yourself or are you adverse to using a pre-made one?
Granted others like the sunshine better but I disagree and think night works better for the lighting scheme of the original map, and it looks cooler. I'm still looking for the actual ns_veil skybox texture in the old NS1 wads. I will post a pic when I find it but haven't had any luck yet with any of them. In the mean time if you decide to move forward with the night skybox, you could probably do a temporary one just filled with stars or something until the more final one is done.
Are you making the skybox yourself or are you adverse to using a pre-made one?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ah thank you.
I'm not averse to using a pre-made one, but there aren't any that match either a bright daylight or a space skybox, so it's a wash
Sure. That's right. I will have to take a personal stand. But it's not right to only go in one direction to test the waters, before I make that decision. I need to give myself, and also to you guys, a chance to see each with my best faith effort put forth. Then we can make a decision together.
Our collective judgement is better than mine alone, anyways.
Btw I hope you didn't change the corridor part with sun light, loved that one.
It simply can't look just like the original Veil. But I'm glad I tried :)