I hope I read this incorrectly
Dictator93
Join Date: 2008-12-21 Member: 65833Members, Reinforced - Shadow
Join Date: 2008-12-21 Member: 65833Members, Reinforced - Shadow
"Get rid of power points too and just rely on the temporary ones? Much cleaner and doesn’t require aliens to go around chomping them in the beginning of the match. For another day..."
= NS2 design log
Get rid of power points?
They seem to be a beautiful component to NS2, a part of it, which is so atmospheric and different from NS1 and best of all, every other game.
Please, do not do this. I really enjoyed the old base bulding. Requireing powerpoints.
The power points are an incredible idea. Please, please, please keep it.
I wil update this later with more focused and less "emotional" thoughts
= NS2 design log
Get rid of power points?
They seem to be a beautiful component to NS2, a part of it, which is so atmospheric and different from NS1 and best of all, every other game.
Please, do not do this. I really enjoyed the old base bulding. Requireing powerpoints.
The power points are an incredible idea. Please, please, please keep it.
I wil update this later with more focused and less "emotional" thoughts
Comments
I would be ok with infestation being the main way to take out power nodes, if infestation is easy to spread with alien backup. Also it would give gorges more importance as they would be able to cover the powernode with DI to disable it until the commander can connect a postule to it.
I still don't know about tying alien lifeforms and upgrades down to hives. If this happens, it will just repeat the problem of NS1 where it was pretty much impossible for an alien team to come back from one hive. There has to be a better alternative.
This implementation could work, and would explain the need for a portable power-generator.
And of course Doors vs DI...
And while the current implementation does kind off work, I'd rather see it go in that direction. This way players don't have to deal directly with the the task of chomping on nodes or setting DI on fire, instead they participate in tasks, which seem less "boring and more immersive/interactive/productive and stuffs :P"
but if we do nothing, that brainstorming becomes reality.
then i and others demand a refund for ns4.0 (as ns2 is rapidly becoming by what im seeing)
Nope, we brainstorm all the time.
Debate on which areas are a priority and so on is good of course.
i want marines to expand to !!! its about teritory controll.. and its stupid that aliens controll with buildings while marines ... yeah.. put sentries in? and stupid but awesome looking E-packs ? stupid ###### stupid ###### . BAM now you cant air my comment on the radios !
The ability to repair nodes manually sorta cancels the skulk chomping, so doing either is kind of a short term solution since the other team can easily undo it.
In the long term, a fortified base with turrets or a patch of infestation does the job.
I like that with this scheme, players will have to learn the fine line of when to take out/repair nodes and when not to waste ones time doing so.
I think it would be fair if infestation disables power nodes, especially since the postules can be destroyed soon. On the other hand it would be cool if the portable powernodes has some sort of protection against the infestation, so forward armory pushes would not be crippled so easily
But sadly, after Charlies latest scratch pad comments I really need to say something. PLEASE, PLEASE PLEASE don't take away the strategic complexity of the game! I was never a fan of NS1 Combat and continued playing the original for years.
If you start to remove the upgrade structure, this game will go to sleep. I don't need another TF2, HL2 Deathmatch etc (don't get me wrong, great games but don't just clone them). I need what NS2 promised to be.
I'm 40 years old, I've been gaming since MUD online and I don't want to find myself joining a server to find it being played by mindless little gits constantly chattering over the mike and pumping music down the headphones, talking inane drivel to each other, as Counter Strike went. And belive me, you take away the strategy element and that's what you'll get. people who want to think a little will go elsewhere.
So, I can't stress it enough in text but UWE, please don't dumb this game down, stick with your original concept, tweak but don't dilute!!!!!!
NS1 did not require marines to build several <i>bases</i> outside their main. It had no "power nodes". Go and try sitting in base with turrets in NS1 and see what happens. In NS1, marines do need to <i>expand</i>, they need to gather resources towers outside base and hold them. Because there were too many and they were spread out, farming them with turrets was not a viable option instead you needed tactics and pressure.
What you fail to realize, is that power nodes are nothing but <i>glorified RT's</i>, things that help you get better upgrades. But they are more <i>scarce</i>, which means turtling them is easier. Relying <i>less on power nodes</i> and more on res towers actually encourages <i>tactical versatility</i> instead of static warfare (=turtling). Marines have considerably less mobility than aliens. Trying to hold several res nodes, tech points and pressure at the same time is much more harder for marines than aliens.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But sadly, after Charlies latest scratch pad comments I really need to say something. PLEASE, PLEASE PLEASE don't take away the strategic complexity of the game! I was never a fan of NS1 Combat and continued playing the original for years.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Incorrect analysis. The current NS2 tech tree is very narrow meaning there are less tech choices available for commander (less tactical versatiltiy), which means the upgrade path is more linear which is like NS1 combat. NS1 classic on the other hand, had much wider tech path from the beginning and no power node requirements, meaning the commanders had to make tactical decisions on which strat (Fast PGs, Fast UPGs, MT, 2 Shotguns?, Fast Adv etc) to do because of strong opportunity costs.
Getting rid of power points and emphasizing res nodes will likely be <i>less</i> dumbed down, <i>less</i> NS1 Combat and <i>less</i> static warfare.
Here's a thought: couldn't the power just be out all over the map at the start of the round (without removing power nodes)? Hmm but then this turns into "Get rid of power points because it requires marines to go around welding them at the beginning of the match" :P
Well i doubt it would really be that bad due to the slow expansion of the marine team. On average marines would be repairing 3 nodes at the start of the map, and we have flashlights, and we have portable-power. Just make the porta-power units cheaper and quicker to build (while also capable of restoring room lights) and i doubt it would be a problem.
Maybe macs can function as porta-power also, just much shorter range. They really feel like something that marines should be able to order around (not just the commander)... go to the armory and buy a personal mac that you can tell what to weld. There the welder problem is solved xD. Macs need some super high-power flashlights on there heads, maybe a minigun also, and carry ammo + med packs to assist in combat! :)
Its important to explore all options in the design brainstorming phase, and sometimes in some quick in game implementation, but I wouldn't get to upset over what you see on there, otherwise you guys might be having mini heart attacks every few days :)
In the case of power nodes, its pretty unlikely that they will be removed completely, however we are not satisfied with the current implementation and are exploring a variety of tweaks and changes that could make the gameplay around them better.
--Cory
What I'd like to see is that the infestation mechanic is extended so that the power level is triggered by infestation. The number of infestation patches required to shut down power in a room is mapper's choice. As infestation patches are added the lighting dims and flickers and after enough are added you go to red emergency lighting. The power grid can then be refined so that sections of hallway get their own power-grid even though they were not important enough to add a separate power node to fight over.
NS1 did not require marines to build several <i>bases</i> outside their main. It had no "power nodes". Go and try sitting in base with turrets in NS1 and see what happens. In NS1, marines do need to <i>expand</i>, they need to gather resources towers outside base and hold them. Because there were too many and they were spread out, farming them with turrets was not a viable option instead you needed tactics and pressure.
What you fail to realize, is that power nodes are nothing but <i>glorified RT's</i>, things that help you get better upgrades. But they are more <i>scarce</i>, which means turtling them is easier. Relying <i>less on power nodes</i> and more on res towers actually encourages <i>tactical versatility</i> instead of static warfare (=turtling). Marines have considerably less mobility than aliens. Trying to hold several res nodes, tech points and pressure at the same time is much more harder for marines than aliens.
Incorrect analysis. The current NS2 tech tree is very narrow meaning there are less tech choices available for commander (less tactical versatiltiy), which means the upgrade path is more linear which is like NS1 combat. NS1 classic on the other hand, had much wider tech path from the beginning and no power node requirements, meaning the commanders had to make tactical decisions on which strat (Fast PGs, Fast UPGs, MT, 2 Shotguns?, Fast Adv etc) to do because of strong opportunity costs.
Getting rid of power points and emphasizing res nodes will likely be <i>less</i> dumbed down, <i>less</i> NS1 Combat and <i>less</i> static warfare.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thank you! I agree with everything you said!
Gotta agree, I made this thread full of sad emotions and conflicting desires. And this post put me to rest, thanks for the well thoughtout response!
And also thanks to cory for replying in this thread. Means a lot. I love UWE
Make power nodes quick to destroy, but blow up and cause damage...about half to most of skulks health. Much less wasted munch time.
Skulks will think twice about attacking vital or non-vital power nodes. Is it worth it for the damage?
Team effort works best.
Lerks or other long range units have the advantage of destroying them.
Repairing should still take much make longer than destroying them. Marines love to repair things.
Good solution???
Also, <b>some</b> marines love to repair things... I think I'd be more valuable killing enemies and taking territory, though.
I think that tech point expansion should serve the same purpose as an expansion in an RTS: primarily economic.
That's why I propose that:
<!--quoteo(post=1845686:date=May 12 2011, 09:50 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ May 12 2011, 09:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1845686"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->(discussed <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=113423" target="_blank">here</a> in depth):
* <!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro--><b>Tech nodes only provide team resources only;</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> <i>team resources are required for structures and researches (as they are now). Rename team resources to e.g. "technology".</i>
* <!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro--><b>Res nodes only provide personal resources only;</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> <i>personal resources are required for life-forms, ammo/medpacks and equipment (as they are now). Personal resources already known simply as "resources", so no change.</i><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->