Resources Re-Envisioned

Harimau

<div class="IPBDescription">and how it affects tech nodes, researches, expansions, and relocations</div>Posted in another thread in General Discussion,
<!--quoteo(post=1845433:date=May 11 2011, 10:45 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ May 11 2011, 10:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1845433"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->After reading comments by <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=113419&view=findpost&p=1845401" target="_blank">matso</a> and <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=113419&view=findpost&p=1845410" target="_blank">OPIE</a>, I had this idea, it's a little radical, but here goes...
<b>Tech nodes produce team resources.</b> <u>Res nodes produce personal resources.</u> (Alternatively, resource towers also produce team resources, but at a much lower rate, say one quarter.)
Holding more tech nodes would mean you can tech up much more quickly, as team resources are required for researches (and structures). Holding more resource nodes means you have a steady flow of weapons, equipment and medpacks (or life-forms and hydras if you're on the alien side). This encourages expanding, and it encourages expanding in a way hearkening back to the classic RTS - expanding for (critical) resources.
This also solves the last-tech-node, no resource towers, situation. Spawning, penniless players would have to make do with their skulk or rifle, but with the steady team resource income they can continue to build new structures or research upgrades - with some strong defending, they can bide their time for a comeback (even if it's only short-lived).
A few other changes may be required, such as lowering the cost of structures and researches.
Perhaps rename team resources to "technology points" a la matso's suggestion. Personal resources are already known as just "resources", so that can stay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Afterthought: (sequential life-form unlock path)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I also imagine a sequential lifeform unlocking path for the alien team. For example
* skulk available from the start, allowed to unlock gorges
* 5 team res to unlock gorge (or maybe available from the start), allows you to unlock lerks
* 10 team res to unlock lerks, allows you to unlock fades
* 20 team res to unlock fades, allows you to unlock onos
* 40 team res to unlock onos
so it would require a total of 75 team res to unlock the onos, which makes it more likely to be a late-game venture.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


<u><b>TL;DR:</b></u>
* <!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro--><b>Tech nodes only provide team resources only;</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> <i>team resources are required for structures and researches (as they are now). Rename team resources to e.g. "technology".</i>
* <!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro--><b>Res nodes only provide personal resources only;</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> <i>personal resources are required for life-forms, ammo/medpacks and equipment (as they are now). Personal resources already known simply as "resources", so no change.</i>

+ <i>(Afterthought)</i> <!--coloro:green--><span style="color:green"><!--/coloro--><b>A sequential Kharaa life-form unlock path a la Weapons1/2/3;</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> <i>Onos follows after Fade, which follows after Lerk, which follows after Gorge, which follows after Skulk. Each unlock becomes increasingly expensive, so that there is a larger cumulative investment towards higher life-form.</i>

Jason Whore

sounds..... interesting. but.. no opinion ! (its to radical)

KuBaN

Like I said in the originating thread, this is probably the most promising proposition I've heard about restructuring the economic model. I can't find a flaw in it, and it sounds exciting!

I would be sad to see the original model unrealized, however.

Kurrine

I agree with everything but the linear alien upgrade model maybe, kinda iffy on it maybe, dunno. Kinda preferring the building based method maybe (crag for gorge, whip for lerk, mass for fade, colony for onos), but I might change my mind there as I test it, and if so, it does sound alright as an alternative model.

+1 on econ model, +0.5 on Kharaa unlock model

Harimau

The Kharaa unlock model was more of an afterthought (edited OP to reflect this), because I figured that it would be too easy (rather, too much benefit for too little cost) for the aliens to unlock higher lifeforms. But, well, upgrading to a hive colony will (assuming current plans hold) in fact operate as an "unlock onos" research anyway, so I drew on that for inspiration.

I like the sequential* unlock model because that's how I imagine the order that those aliens will appear in the game, and in my opinion <b>should</b> appear in the game. It's unlikely that you'll ever see an Onos before a Fade, or a Fade before a Lerk.



At first when I came up with the resource model, I was like, nah, this is so different, it's too radical, but as I wrote the post and thought about it more, I thought, this is so simple and so appropriate. I mean, it makes sense. We have two nodes for capture: Technology Nodes and Resource Nodes. We have two resources: Team Resources and Personal Resources. Marry those two concepts together, and then you end up, consequently, with a Starcraft-like expansion dynamic; and you solve most of the problems that occur with the tech node system, and the two resource (personal/team) system. And it's so simple, and absolutely clear to players: Tech nodes for tech "points", res nodes for res "points". Tech "points" for your tech: researches and structures. Res "points" for your manufactures: weapons, etc. It's almost like this was how it's meant to be.

Comebacks become possible. Relocations become viable. Expansions become attractive. The learning curve eases. The value of nodes and structures become apparent. Strategies open up. Cost-benefit analysis is encouraged. Good timing is encouraged. And resource income, and their nodes, become as valuable as they were in NS1, and in a very similar way; without sacrificing the greater individual freedom of NS2.

I can't imagine it would be too difficult to code either. Just remove the +teamres from resource towers, and add the same code to hives/CCs. Costs of structures and researches will have to change, of course, since teams would have, during the majority of the early game, what is effectively only one resource node. But all costs are in their own .lua, which are imported from an excel file, so that won't be difficult to do either, if slightly tedious.

swalk

I like this idea. It solves alot of problems, and makes tech points valuable again.
It might need a little tweaking along the way, but i can imagine that the basic idea would work well for NS2.
As for the alien class unlocking model, I kinda like it. Because that will make the use of chambers more free again.
On a side note i think we should tie chambers to hives(hive tech tier upgrades) like in NS1.
hive -> 2 chambers
hive mass -> 3 chambers
hive colony -> 4 chambers

That will make the game's more dynamic. And open up different strategies.

Kurrine

The more I thought about it, it made sense (fluff-wise) at least partially that where the hive appeared was directly drawing power(the tech nodes), few and very centralized, would only likely power Hive functions like spawning drifters with the necessary energy/mass to build whatever structure. While the various Kharaa lifeforms, more mobile would be drawing resources from the various nodes, but that's just my take on it.

Also yes I suppose the linear model does also make sense anyways, if the hive-mind wanted to be careful about biomass/energy expenditure, it'd start small and scale the threat up accordingly as needed. You don't send in a tank to deal with a guy lobbing rocks at your wall, after all. You wait and see if he returns with power armor to throw more than skulks at the problem.

Twiggeh

This is actually a great idea Harimau! It takes care of marines turtling, it makes comebacks possible and gives a better separation between the to resources.


Tho it might become necessary to remodel the tech node and hive/commchair to visually show that its generating points, like the resnodes.

Harimau

swalk: Could you elaborate on what you mean? Are you saying that a maximum of 2/3/4 chambers can be built for a hive/mass/colony? If that's the case, then I'd just add that that limit should only apply to "Mature" structures - and mature structures provide any research incentives, but basic structures just provide basic function.

Kurrine: Exactly. The sequential unlock model just standardises how the game would progress normally, but it's very clear and simple.

Twiggeh: That's an interesting point. I'm not sure about "necessary", but <b>definitely</b> desirable. I can imagine the hive pulsing, for instance.

swalk

Yes thats exactly what i mean Harimaru. :)

Harimau

I had a few more thoughts about implementation, centering around costs.

If, for some reason, you wanted to encourage the aliens to expand moreso than you wanted marines to expand (to have more NS1-like hive-location-based gameplay) then you could simply manipulate the costs:
Aliens: Medium-High upgrade cost, Low Hive cost
Marines: High CC cost, Medium-Low upgrade cost
So the aliens, with their higher upgrade costs, would be more inclined to expand for greater technology resource income, and this is facilitated by the lower hive cost.
The marines on the other hand, with their high CC cost, will be less inclined to expand for greater technology resource income, but are more able to tech up with a single tech point due to the lower upgrade costs. Relocations are viable despite the higher CC cost because the marine team has "recycle".

Having the costs similar and middle-ranged will make each team's inclination to expand more similar.

Both approaches have their merits.

If you wanted teams to expand more (or rather, earlier), have lower Hive/CC costs and/or higher teching costs; if you wanted teams to expand less (or rather, later), have higher Hive/CC costs; and if you wanted teams to turtle more, have lower teching costs.

Typhon

The other thing this does is that it almost completely separates the resource systems of the comm and the players. The comm gets the vast majority of his resources (all but his med/ammo/catpack funds) from a structure that provides nothing to the marines. In fact, the comm has to spend his tech resources (which could have been spent advancing the tech tree) in order to place a structure that gives <i>him</i> no return at all but does provide a return for the marines: the extractor.

Although I thought this was a bad thing at first, I think I've convinced myself its actually good.

The comm could go tech heavy, placing only command stations, no additional extractors, and tech hard. This would then presumably leave the marines on the ground unable to actually afford the tech that the comm has researched. Thus, a balance must be achieved. This is a good thing IMO.

Or, the comm could spend some of his precious tech points on additional extractors. This stunts long-term advancement, but would allow the marines to make full use of some of the low level tech stuff that the comm can still afford to research, primarily shotguns.

In order to make these resource gathering decisions deeper, the comm chair and hives should have resource gathering rate upgrades like the resource nodes have. Much like in traditional RTSs like starcraft, the comm should have to make a decision regarding how much resources to devote now in the pursuit of higher returns later (ie how many workers you build). If tech nodes only have two states, occupied or not, then the comm basically has 3 or so tech collection rates and the rate is 100% tied to territory control. If the comm could make the decision to upgrade his existing two tech nodes for higher gather rate instead of expanding to another new tech point, that again increases the meaningful decisions he has to make, giving depth.

Harimau

I covered a similar topic in a reply to someone in General Discussion:
<!--quoteo(post=1845718:date=May 12 2011, 11:20 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ May 12 2011, 11:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1845718"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=1845702:date=May 12 2011, 10:46 PM:name=kingmob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kingmob @ May 12 2011, 10:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1845702"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=1845686:date=May 12 2011, 09:50 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ May 12 2011, 09:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1845686"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->* <!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro--><b>Tech nodes only provide team resources only;</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> <i>team resources are required for structures and researches (as they are now). Rename team resources to e.g. "technology".</i>
* <!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro--><b>Res nodes only provide personal resources only;</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> <i>personal resources are required for life-forms, ammo/medpacks and equipment (as they are now). Personal resources already known simply as "resources", so no change.</i><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

It's an interesting idea but I see one flaw on it.
Commanders and Units will be divided on what units should be built.
Units want more Res Nodes
Commanders want more Tech Nodes (the res drip seems excruciating slow as a commander.)

There is not enough need on both ends...and commanders make the decision.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't see that as an issue, because tech nodes will be a much more valuable asset, and require a much larger investment. The game would still progress with you taking res nodes more often than tech nodes, to allow for a steady stream of "units", or 'consumables' (life-forms, equipment, ammo/medpack, whatever else gets added). The game will progress with a much more Starcraft-like expansion dynamic.
And in the end, you just have to trust that the commander knows best and follow his directives* - if his marines are running around with rifles while the aliens are slaughtering them with fades because his team doesn't have enough personal resource income, then he'll know (or learn) to find the right balance. "Drop a res tower" becomes the new "drop a shotty".
*or eject.

And <b>of course</b> the numbers will have to be balanced before release, but that was going to have to be the case regardless of what system is in place. Part of my suggestion (detailed version) was to lower research/structure costs to account for the decreased (on average) early-game income, but you could flip it the other way and simply increase tech-point income. As it is, there is an unreasonable abundance of personal res, so that needed to be reduced anyway.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

It also gives players, at least middle-game and later, choices as to what to assault. Do you assault the tech point to stunt their tech growth, or do you assault the more fragile res towers to cut off their source of income?

spellman23

Me likes.