[Spec]Ice - thing is, marines should be expanding to new techpoints because they should gain benefits from it, not because they need to cripple aliens.
5/13/2011 - Toying with flexible D/M/S style tech tree for aliens but it doesn’t allow us to expand the game easily (assuming a hive could only support one type of chamber, that limits us to 3 - Crag, Shift, Shade)
Why not limit hives to, say, 2 chamber types if you want to include more types (would work for 5-6 chambers)? It would add plenty of variety; you could see the aliens going for hive 1 speed + defense one round, and cloak + focus the next (assuming each of these upgrades were on separate chambers)
Even with 4 chamber types you could go 2-1-1 for upgrades...7 chambers could go 3-2-2, and I doubt you'd need or want more than that
Edit: As far as power nodes I'd say let them all start broken except for Marine Start, but be quicker to repair and quicker to destroy...aliens should have greater map control initially, and chomping on nodes doesn't lend itself to that...the portable power nodes can be used as backup systems for vital areas if the marines want it to be tougher for aliens to hurt a specific area
Also, I think tech points could double as resource collectors without changing too much...a tech point with a resource nozzle could be seen as a double res node. This would elegantly solve the problem of losing all team resource nozzles, and be extra incentive for tech point expansion
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
edited May 2011
Seeing how you wanted to have Macs tier two for the commander/marine team building, and now that tiers could be removed. The mac could be added to the robotics factory. As a early game use for the robotics factory. And it would be nice seeing the macs "roll" out of it.
Also It'd be nice if weapon and armor upgrades affected structures and npc's as well. So at late game, everything wouldn't be destroyed instantly.
"[Spec]Ice - thing is, marines should be expanding to new techpoints because they should gain benefits from it, not because they need to cripple aliens."
-Why should they? -Races feel the SAME they both have same resource tech structure. I don't feel unique being an alien/marine. -NS had superior race differences. It was like two different games depending on what side you where on. -Both races just feel to similar. -PS BRING backwelders
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- Adding marine Arms Lab so there aren’t so many upgrade buttons on the armory and so marines have more options<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Can't wait to see the new version of the structure.
nadyliJoin Date: 2007-11-01Member: 62791Members, Squad Five Blue
edited May 2011
You guys seem to forget the most important incentive for expanding, map control. As soon as we are able to play bigger maps and the phase gates are in, map control is the key to win most marine games.
QuovatisTeam InversionJoin Date: 2010-01-26Member: 70321Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
Nice new tech tree. Agree with it all. I think moving to an arms lab is great, and many have been asking for that. Wonder what "Nanogrid Defense" upgrade is?
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
I wonder if weapons module art piece will be part of the advanced armory now.
And hopefully the <a href="http://media.indiedb.com/images/games/1/10/9998/Structure-NS2_Concept_Armory.jpg" target="_blank">holographic research indicator</a> comes someday. :V
McGlaspiewww.team156.comJoin Date: 2010-07-26Member: 73044Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Gold, Subnautica Playtester
While I think the Tech Tree looks good, makes more sense, and has a more natural order compared to the current tree, I really don't like it. I can't help but feel this is a huge step backwards. From my perspective, NS2 is slowly bit by bit becoming NS1 Redux. What's up with that? For a game called Natural Selection, there doesn't seem to be much evolution going on. Yes, NS1 was/is a bloody fantastic game. Loved it and still do (still play occasionally too); however, if I want to play NS1, I'll go play NS1. NS2 should be an evolution of the core NS concept(s) and not a rehashed version of the original idea.
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
edited May 2011
<!--quoteo(post=1846126:date=May 13 2011, 11:55 PM:name=McGlaspie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (McGlaspie @ May 13 2011, 11:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1846126"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->While I think the Tech Tree looks good, makes more sense, and has a more natural order compared to the current tree, I really don't like it. I can't help but feel this is a huge step backwards. From my perspective, NS2 is slowly bit by bit becoming NS1 Redux. What's up with that? For a game called Natural Selection, there doesn't seem to be much evolution going on. Yes, NS1 was/is a bloody fantastic game. Loved it and still do (still play occasionally too); however, if I want to play NS1, I'll go play NS1. NS2 should be an evolution of the core NS concept(s) and not a rehashed version of the original idea.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For a game called natural selection 2 you'd think it would have gameplay based on natural selection 1. After all, it's a sequel.
McGlaspiewww.team156.comJoin Date: 2010-07-26Member: 73044Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Gold, Subnautica Playtester
edited May 2011
Completely agree Harimau. That was exactly my point. I don't mean this in a malicious way, but I can't help feeling UWE is taking the easy way out. Don't misunderstand me, I'm all for streamlined gameplay, I just feel like we're going in the wrong direction. I didn't see any conceptual problems with the original expansion model (must capture techpoints and move forward). It just needed some polishing and tuning. It wasn't a bad idea at all.
I remember the decision to make alien's evolution structure dependent, was to allow marines the ability to remove certain aliens by focusing attacks on their respective structures.
What will be the alien equivalent to this? Will Aliens have the ability to remove FTs by taking out advanced armories? It seems only fair.
<!--quoteo(post=1846126:date=May 13 2011, 11:55 PM:name=McGlaspie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (McGlaspie @ May 13 2011, 11:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1846126"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->While I think the Tech Tree looks good, makes more sense, and has a more natural order compared to the current tree, I really don't like it. I can't help but feel this is a huge step backwards. From my perspective, NS2 is slowly bit by bit becoming NS1 Redux. What's up with that? For a game called Natural Selection, there doesn't seem to be much evolution going on. Yes, NS1 was/is a bloody fantastic game. Loved it and still do (still play occasionally too); however, if I want to play NS1, I'll go play NS1. NS2 should be an evolution of the core NS concept(s) and not a rehashed version of the original idea.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--quoteo(post=1846156:date=May 14 2011, 03:05 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ May 14 2011, 03:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1846156"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It seems like NS2 is moving towards a point where any differences from NS1 are merely superficial.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This. My nightmare.
Seriously, there was never time and money enough to create a new engine/art AND re-imagine, test and balance a new game model.
Not to mention the threat to UWE biggest asset in its existing customer base. Successors like Starcraft 2, Dragon Age 2, Crysis 2 et al improve on their successors for a very good reason. Moreover, they didn't even use a pre-order model, which makes UWE even more exposed to resentment from not staying true to the original, since a good majority of the 20000 pre-orders are paying for a successor.
In my opinion there's nothing wrong going back to the basics first and improve upon it from there. Take a long, hard look at Starcraft 1 and Starcraft 2 and the differences are in the gradual polish, well placed new additions and balance rather than making a completely new game out of it.
So I wouldn't worry, they're probably even more concerned about discarding the exciting and new changes than you are. Also for those saying the changes are superficial may be underestimating the new features[*] that have been put into the game, as well as any unannounced features they have said repeatedly they are going to reveal at a later point or for 1.0. You may of course think of these differently, but for me they are all meaningful additions that will be improved and add more impact to the game throughout beta and after release for sure.
And as we all know they clearly have worked through a new model and found that it didn't work quite the way they had hoped, but I doubt the idea is still tossed out the window, not to mention that the image and document we have seen Charlie work on is <i>speculative </i>and not final.
<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->[*] Infestation and ways to spread/remove it, locked doors in a level, several ways to lock/weld/unlock/break doors, powernodes, tech-points (I think they're staying but in an altered form), improved kharaa movement (or potential to make it better than NS1), several commanders, alien commander with tech-tree and RTS element, moddable engine and great tools, Drifters/MACs/ARC/Whips for commander, marines being able to buy their own equipment, Onos getting abilities to act as a living shield and ram, Exoskeleton just being "cooler" (I guess :p). P.S Of course if you want to dissect all of these then go ahead, but how they work <i>now </i>may very well not represent what they are going to end up being like at release.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
To be fair, the tech involved in NS2 is so much more expansive that as far as gameplay ramifications go we have nothing to worry about in regards to being too similar to NS1. There is nothing wrong with taking something that's proven to work and using it as the base skeleton on which to hang the rest of the game, and as the best FPS/RTS released to date NS1 has a lot to teach us.
The reason why NS1 worked was because of the timings of the tech trees and the relative powers given by the tech. The game flow, basically. IMO what makes a game really great is how your in-game decisions impact your relative strength over time, the back and forth. <i>How</i> your relative strength is changed will be what everyone judges how different NS2 to NS1 is. That lies with the weapons, upgrades and abilities, and as we have seen they are very different.
I see no problem with lifting a proven framework and implementing it straight into NS2. Especially one from a mod with limited playerbase that you yourself made. It's not like just copy/pasting from Supreme Commander or StarCraft.
Triggerman, you basically listed all of the things I consider (in their current implementations) to be superficial. Pretty, might look good on paper, but trivial.
Infestation is pretty and the concept is sound, but thusfar is not really a <b>compelling</b> gameplay element. Locked doors I don't even have to talk about. Improved Kharaa movement we have not seen yet (quite the opposite). There is no benefit to multiple commanders - it detracts from the gameplay more often than it benefits it. The alien commander is woefully incomplete, and improvements to it essentially come at the cost of traditional gorge play; one could argue that the alien commander would not be necessary in an NS2 with freely-growing dynamic infestation and gorges as the only builders. MACs have been reducing in importance with every patch. Drifters don't work well, not just in-game but on paper. Whips are just a chamber from NS1 with limited offensive capability. The ARC is just a siege that moves. Marines being able to purchase their own weapons, although something I support, is still arguably superficial - if a team in NS1 is wealthy and the commander is amiable, the field marines will get the weapons they want. Onos shield, and onos ram feel trivial - makes for good fiction and cinematic moments, but it doesn't sound too spectacular on paper, so I imagine that aspect of the gameplay won't be that compelling. Exoskeleton, well, we know very little about it, but I imagine it'll function very similar to a Heavy did in NS1.
Moddable engine and great tools is about the only thing in your list I don't consider to be superficial, just judging by potential of it and already the community involvement in the development process, but honestly, its success depends on NS2 becoming a good game in its own right, so if we're dealing with just the present, it is somewhat superficial.
Adding to your list... Every iteration of power nodes so far - not a compelling gameplay element, often simply tedious or annoying. The flamethrower, sounds great!, and if it's sci-fi it's gotta have flamethrowers - but broken; it used to be more broken, but then they 'fixed' it by lowering the damage and adding a superficial anti-adrenaline effect. Tech points used to be important, and now they are gradually becoming less so - tech points had (have) the potential of making the game interesting or compelling, but at the moment it's... superficial.
I think most of these things <b>can</b> become compelling, interesting and fun, but judging by the current direction (heading towards a more NS1-like game) they look to become superficial additions. <u>I would have, like <b>any of you</b>, paid for and enjoyed an NS:Source</u>, but too many things have changed for NS2 - as they should, being a <b>sequel</b>; but unfortunately, because of this apparent return to NS1 "roots", those changes are either being retracted or gradually changing from things with actual potential to things that are simply <b>superficial</b>.
This is just my subjective opinion, but the only things a sequel needs from its predecessor is to carry forward the same "spirit" and give players the same "feeling" and "experience" that they remember.
I believe this to the point where even though I personally despise the concept of broken physics bunnyhopping, because so many players seem to hold that movement style dear to their NS1 experience, I might support it, for them. On second thought, no. That's something I won't mind changing.
<!--quoteo(post=1846214:date=May 15 2011, 12:32 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ May 15 2011, 12:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1846214"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the only things a sequel needs from its predecessor is to carry forward the same "spirit" and give players the same "feeling" and "experience" that they remember.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You just don't do it.
From a business perspective New Coke failed for a good reason. It doesn't matter if it tastes better, if you change the formula, you go broke. There are almost no winning successors that changed their model.
Honestly if ANYTHING I personally believe they should revert even farther back into NS1 territory and get rid of alien commanders. At this point I am probably the happiest I've been with NS2 after seeing the dev-notes. Keeping the same basic NS system while EXPANDING and BUILDING upon what WORKED. It's very simple, if something works why change it? Just like the saying, if it ain't broke don't fix it, and the NS1 system wasn't broke, it's what compelled us all to play for so many years so I don't get why it needs to be altered so drastically, if anything take what works and build on it, that's the foundation of every successful sequel. In fact I can't think of any sequel that strayed from its roots and was successful. Last comparison I can think of is Savage 2 which I couldn't even play for more then 10 minutes it was so awful, but Savage 1 I have about 60 days worth of hours clocked into it because the basic ROOTS and foundation of the game were brilliant and in 2, they strayed far from it and tarnished everything fun and exciting about the original.
Take a look at games like Diablo, Warcraft and Starcraft, every sequel is basically the first game just EXPANDED and well we all see how that turned out for Blizzard, probably one of the most successful companies to date.
With all that said I am all for change, and trying new things but if it isn't working and if the older way worked better, then it's only a matter of common sense.
Finally, if you seriously can't see how Macs/drifters, the power grid and infestation ALONE isn't a big drastic change in itself, then that is honestly beyond shocking and makes you wonder how hard headed or stubborn people can be.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Finally, if you seriously can't see how Macs/drifters, the power grid and infestation ALONE isn't a big drastic change in itself, then that is honestly beyond shocking and makes you wonder how hard headed or stubborn people can be.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yep. These things are pretty major and to judge them by their current (placeholder) implementation isn't fair.
---
In all honesty I have been a bit worried about the use of tech-points anyway. From a marine's point-of-view... it doesn't do all that much good. 1.) You split up your reinforcing players between bases if you build an IP there. It's counteracting the squad-behaviour! 2.) You only need the other Command Center for a second and then it's nearly completely useless (upgrade the CC in your main-base), unless you want tier 3 when it's two additional useless CCs on the field that then can be chomped on without anyone caring once they are all up.
The benefits they give is that the marines would need to defend multiple points, but it's really doing so in the wrong way since they don't support the smaller teamsizes (we can't expect all servers to be full at all times) and they are fairly redundant for the marine-team as a whole. Hives for the aliens however have this inherent usefulness since they heal up the players, act as anchor points for infestation and provide more spawns (whereas marines need to invest in Infantry Portals, something they never build on an outlying CC unless they are pushing/winning).
So...unless the Command Centers can fulfill a similar role as the Hive does just by being there, it's just not that useful or warranted to even be there. Imo.
<!--quoteo(post=1846238:date=May 14 2011, 01:07 PM:name=TheGivingTree)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TheGivingTree @ May 14 2011, 01:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1846238"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's very simple, if something works why change it? Just like the saying, if it ain't broke don't fix it, and the NS1 system wasn't broke, it's what compelled us all to play for so many years so I don't get why it needs to be altered so drastically, if anything take what works and build on it, that's the foundation of every successful sequel.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well if it's not broken and nothing is wrong with NS1 then why aren't all of us playing it? Why is anyone here, watching the progress of something NEW? Because we want something NEW, and that has absolutely 0 to do with the fact of NS1 being broken or not.
<!--quoteo(post=1846238:date=May 14 2011, 01:07 PM:name=TheGivingTree)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TheGivingTree @ May 14 2011, 01:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1846238"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Take a look at games like Diablo, Warcraft and Starcraft, every sequel is basically the first game just EXPANDED and well we all see how that turned out for Blizzard, probably one of the most successful companies to date.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All of these are single-player as well as multiplayer franchises, that not only expand on gameplay elements, but also on the overarching story that drive the franchise forward.
Natural Selection 2 (like it's predecessor) is purely a multiplayer experience, and on top of that is being developed by an independent studio, so it's going to have to work harder than the established, over-advertised, well-funded franchises of Blizzard Entertainment in order to keep from being overshadowed by their more acccessible, AAA titles. And it accomplished that in NS1 through it's innovation.
I loved NS1 for it's <b>innovation</b>. It's indie spirit. I looked forward to NS2 because it pushed the envelop and promised to innovate <b>gameplay</b> yet again. Now, however, it only promises to make you nostalgic. I already played NS1 extensively, and having matured, was hoping to see the franchise mature as well, rather than just become a fan-service vehicle. Their intended direction held a lot of promise, and up until the most recent Tech Tree changes I was starting to develop high hopes for NS2. Now I just look forward to being able to start my own mod, to see that original direction through myself.
Comments
<img src="http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/8098/smarinetechtreev30.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
- Toying with flexible D/M/S style tech tree for aliens but it doesn’t allow us to expand the game easily (assuming a hive could only support one type of chamber, that limits us to 3 - Crag, Shift, Shade)
Why not limit hives to, say, 2 chamber types if you want to include more types (would work for 5-6 chambers)? It would add plenty of variety; you could see the aliens going for hive 1 speed + defense one round, and cloak + focus the next (assuming each of these upgrades were on separate chambers)
Even with 4 chamber types you could go 2-1-1 for upgrades...7 chambers could go 3-2-2, and I doubt you'd need or want more than that
Edit: As far as power nodes I'd say let them all start broken except for Marine Start, but be quicker to repair and quicker to destroy...aliens should have greater map control initially, and chomping on nodes doesn't lend itself to that...the portable power nodes can be used as backup systems for vital areas if the marines want it to be tougher for aliens to hurt a specific area
Also, I think tech points could double as resource collectors without changing too much...a tech point with a resource nozzle could be seen as a double res node. This would elegantly solve the problem of losing all team resource nozzles, and be extra incentive for tech point expansion
Also It'd be nice if weapon and armor upgrades affected structures and npc's as well. So at late game, everything wouldn't be destroyed instantly.
-Why should they?
-Races feel the SAME they both have same resource tech structure. I don't feel unique being an alien/marine.
-NS had superior race differences. It was like two different games depending on what side you where on.
-Both races just feel to similar.
-PS BRING backwelders
-PS BRING backwelders<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
BACKWELDERS.
I lol'd
Can't wait to see the new version of the structure.
Awesome stuff! So much good news lately... It's renewing my confidence in NS2.
I also love the new tech tree.
Source?
Also... nukes! I didn't play the ns1 beta but i know that it was a feature back then. What did the nukes do?
The tree looks good except for that a prototype lab requires flamethrower research, that just feels kinda weird.
<i>grammar edit</i>
And hopefully the <a href="http://media.indiedb.com/images/games/1/10/9998/Structure-NS2_Concept_Armory.jpg" target="_blank">holographic research indicator</a> comes someday. :V
For a game called natural selection 2 you'd think it would have gameplay based on natural selection 1. After all, it's a sequel.
It seems like NS2 is moving towards a point where any differences from NS1 are merely superficial.
What will be the alien equivalent to this? Will Aliens have the ability to remove FTs by taking out advanced armories? It seems only fair.
<!--quoteo(post=1846156:date=May 14 2011, 03:05 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ May 14 2011, 03:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1846156"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It seems like NS2 is moving towards a point where any differences from NS1 are merely superficial.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This. My nightmare.
Not to mention the threat to UWE biggest asset in its existing customer base. Successors like Starcraft 2, Dragon Age 2, Crysis 2 et al improve on their successors for a very good reason. Moreover, they didn't even use a pre-order model, which makes UWE even more exposed to resentment from not staying true to the original, since a good majority of the 20000 pre-orders are paying for a successor.
So I wouldn't worry, they're probably even more concerned about discarding the exciting and new changes than you are. Also for those saying the changes are superficial may be underestimating the new features[*] that have been put into the game, as well as any unannounced features they have said repeatedly they are going to reveal at a later point or for 1.0. You may of course think of these differently, but for me they are all meaningful additions that will be improved and add more impact to the game throughout beta and after release for sure.
And as we all know they clearly have worked through a new model and found that it didn't work quite the way they had hoped, but I doubt the idea is still tossed out the window, not to mention that the image and document we have seen Charlie work on is <i>speculative </i>and not final.
<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->[*] Infestation and ways to spread/remove it, locked doors in a level, several ways to lock/weld/unlock/break doors, powernodes, tech-points (I think they're staying but in an altered form), improved kharaa movement (or potential to make it better than NS1), several commanders, alien commander with tech-tree and RTS element, moddable engine and great tools, Drifters/MACs/ARC/Whips for commander, marines being able to buy their own equipment, Onos getting abilities to act as a living shield and ram, Exoskeleton just being "cooler" (I guess :p).
P.S Of course if you want to dissect all of these then go ahead, but how they work <i>now </i>may very well not represent what they are going to end up being like at release.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
The reason why NS1 worked was because of the timings of the tech trees and the relative powers given by the tech. The game flow, basically. IMO what makes a game really great is how your in-game decisions impact your relative strength over time, the back and forth. <i>How</i> your relative strength is changed will be what everyone judges how different NS2 to NS1 is. That lies with the weapons, upgrades and abilities, and as we have seen they are very different.
I see no problem with lifting a proven framework and implementing it straight into NS2. Especially one from a mod with limited playerbase that you yourself made. It's not like just copy/pasting from Supreme Commander or StarCraft.
Infestation is pretty and the concept is sound, but thusfar is not really a <b>compelling</b> gameplay element. Locked doors I don't even have to talk about. Improved Kharaa movement we have not seen yet (quite the opposite). There is no benefit to multiple commanders - it detracts from the gameplay more often than it benefits it. The alien commander is woefully incomplete, and improvements to it essentially come at the cost of traditional gorge play; one could argue that the alien commander would not be necessary in an NS2 with freely-growing dynamic infestation and gorges as the only builders. MACs have been reducing in importance with every patch. Drifters don't work well, not just in-game but on paper. Whips are just a chamber from NS1 with limited offensive capability. The ARC is just a siege that moves. Marines being able to purchase their own weapons, although something I support, is still arguably superficial - if a team in NS1 is wealthy and the commander is amiable, the field marines will get the weapons they want. Onos shield, and onos ram feel trivial - makes for good fiction and cinematic moments, but it doesn't sound too spectacular on paper, so I imagine that aspect of the gameplay won't be that compelling. Exoskeleton, well, we know very little about it, but I imagine it'll function very similar to a Heavy did in NS1.
Moddable engine and great tools is about the only thing in your list I don't consider to be superficial, just judging by potential of it and already the community involvement in the development process, but honestly, its success depends on NS2 becoming a good game in its own right, so if we're dealing with just the present, it is somewhat superficial.
Adding to your list... Every iteration of power nodes so far - not a compelling gameplay element, often simply tedious or annoying. The flamethrower, sounds great!, and if it's sci-fi it's gotta have flamethrowers - but broken; it used to be more broken, but then they 'fixed' it by lowering the damage and adding a superficial anti-adrenaline effect. Tech points used to be important, and now they are gradually becoming less so - tech points had (have) the potential of making the game interesting or compelling, but at the moment it's... superficial.
I think most of these things <b>can</b> become compelling, interesting and fun, but judging by the current direction (heading towards a more NS1-like game) they look to become superficial additions. <u>I would have, like <b>any of you</b>, paid for and enjoyed an NS:Source</u>, but too many things have changed for NS2 - as they should, being a <b>sequel</b>; but unfortunately, because of this apparent return to NS1 "roots", those changes are either being retracted or gradually changing from things with actual potential to things that are simply <b>superficial</b>.
This is just my subjective opinion, but the only things a sequel needs from its predecessor is to carry forward the same "spirit" and give players the same "feeling" and "experience" that they remember.
I believe this to the point where even though I personally despise the concept of broken physics bunnyhopping, because so many players seem to hold that movement style dear to their NS1 experience, I might support it, for them.
On second thought, no. That's something I won't mind changing.
You just don't do it.
From a business perspective New Coke failed for a good reason. It doesn't matter if it tastes better, if you change the formula, you go broke. There are almost no winning successors that changed their model.
Take a look at games like Diablo, Warcraft and Starcraft, every sequel is basically the first game just EXPANDED and well we all see how that turned out for Blizzard, probably one of the most successful companies to date.
With all that said I am all for change, and trying new things but if it isn't working and if the older way worked better, then it's only a matter of common sense.
Finally, if you seriously can't see how Macs/drifters, the power grid and infestation ALONE isn't a big drastic change in itself, then that is honestly beyond shocking and makes you wonder how hard headed or stubborn people can be.
Yep. These things are pretty major and to judge them by their current (placeholder) implementation isn't fair.
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In all honesty I have been a bit worried about the use of tech-points anyway. From a marine's point-of-view... it doesn't do all that much good.
1.) You split up your reinforcing players between bases if you build an IP there. It's counteracting the squad-behaviour!
2.) You only need the other Command Center for a second and then it's nearly completely useless (upgrade the CC in your main-base), unless you want tier 3 when it's two additional useless CCs on the field that then can be chomped on without anyone caring once they are all up.
The benefits they give is that the marines would need to defend multiple points, but it's really doing so in the wrong way since they don't support the smaller teamsizes (we can't expect all servers to be full at all times) and they are fairly redundant for the marine-team as a whole.
Hives for the aliens however have this inherent usefulness since they heal up the players, act as anchor points for infestation and provide more spawns (whereas marines need to invest in Infantry Portals, something they never build on an outlying CC unless they are pushing/winning).
So...unless the Command Centers can fulfill a similar role as the Hive does just by being there, it's just not that useful or warranted to even be there. Imo.
Well if it's not broken and nothing is wrong with NS1 then why aren't all of us playing it? Why is anyone here, watching the progress of something NEW? Because we want something NEW, and that has absolutely 0 to do with the fact of NS1 being broken or not.
<!--quoteo(post=1846238:date=May 14 2011, 01:07 PM:name=TheGivingTree)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TheGivingTree @ May 14 2011, 01:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1846238"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Take a look at games like Diablo, Warcraft and Starcraft, every sequel is basically the first game just EXPANDED and well we all see how that turned out for Blizzard, probably one of the most successful companies to date.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All of these are single-player as well as multiplayer franchises, that not only expand on gameplay elements, but also on the overarching story that drive the franchise forward.
Natural Selection 2 (like it's predecessor) is purely a multiplayer experience, and on top of that is being developed by an independent studio, so it's going to have to work harder than the established, over-advertised, well-funded franchises of Blizzard Entertainment in order to keep from being overshadowed by their more acccessible, AAA titles. And it accomplished that in NS1 through it's innovation.
I loved NS1 for it's <b>innovation</b>. It's indie spirit. I looked forward to NS2 because it pushed the envelop and promised to innovate <b>gameplay</b> yet again. Now, however, it only promises to make you nostalgic. I already played NS1 extensively, and having matured, was hoping to see the franchise mature as well, rather than just become a fan-service vehicle. Their intended direction held a lot of promise, and up until the most recent Tech Tree changes I was starting to develop high hopes for NS2. Now I just look forward to being able to start my own mod, to see that original direction through myself.