<!--quoteo(post=1846847:date=May 17 2011, 02:07 PM:name=Zoot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zoot @ May 17 2011, 02:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1846847"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Definitely NOT in favor of lerk changes. They should be a long range/support class..and as someone else mentioned why nerf the only working alien class atm? What about when larger maps come out do you really want all lerks engaging in close combat..just doesnt make any sense to me<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lerks will certainly have the speed (and perhaps maneuverability when the flight model is finalized) to engage in close combat. Besides, the plan (for as much as I know) was always Marines Ranged vs. Alien Melee/Close ranged.
I like the lerk ideas, lets test it how it works out.
Reversing/changing is always possible, dunno why some QQ like the design ideas are set in stone. Everything in this google docs document is subject to change if it doesnt feel/workout right.
Sniping needs a nerf, and spikes are currently quite crap, so I appreciate the changes to the lerk.
Bile bomb on the gorge also a good idea, it works and adds a much needed siege weapon to aliens.
Heal spray is good obviously.
Tech tree, ehh not sure. I was never particularly fond of the NS1 tech tree approach but it is easier to get hives in this version, so it might not be a problem.
QQing? Its a difference of opinion. What are the current gamebreaking aspects of the lerks flight/attack mechanics? I personally don't see them and definitely prefer the lerks current longer range attacks..if it ain't broke don't fix it or don't change things for the sake of changing them imo.
Am I the only one confused about the alien tech tree now. If it is unchained than what does it mean the hive will turn into that chamber type hive? Does that mean you can build all the chambers, but you only get access to portions or even all of there upgrades once you build a hive and tie the chamber to it. That really isn't unchained; it is just the allusion of freedom.
<!--quoteo(post=1846838:date=May 17 2011, 03:27 PM:name=PsiWarp)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PsiWarp @ May 17 2011, 03:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1846838"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think UWE wants the Lerk to be more up-in-your-face in the early game, the faster firing rate and change to smoke trail spores encourage close combat. Lerk will have Snipe for long range support, and later in the game Spores can be upgraded to the version we are using right now, increasing the Lerk's ranged support.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> yes but that makes no sense. skulks are supposed to be the in your face class early game. mid game fades are supposed to be the in your face class (no idea why they think fade should be stealth as the fade is larger than a marine, makes a FLASHY entrance, and instantly becomes target number 1, plus lerks are FAR better for stealth attacks as they can hide in the knooks and shoot spikes and spores from an unknown location). I mean think about it, if a class has the ability to fly, why.. in the heck... would they throw this ability away in favor of suicide attacks with weakened spikes. with the current flight system the marine already is able to maneuver away from spores and spikes pretty easily thanks to sprint and super backspeed. i can understand they want to make changes to the game but a lot of these changes (to me) make 0 sense in the common sense of things unless lerk will be getting the ability to pick up marines and carry them off like eagles lol. idk, just seems like since alpha to now the game just keeps going more and more backwards. i mean they are even adding the arms lab back in. either admit ns1 was balanced and a great game and build on that or at least make changes that make sense. but thats just my opinion.
<!--quoteo(post=1846857:date=May 17 2011, 05:30 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ May 17 2011, 05:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1846857"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sniping needs a nerf, and spikes are currently quite crap, so I appreciate the changes to the lerk.
Bile bomb on the gorge also a good idea, it works and adds a much needed siege weapon to aliens.
Heal spray is good obviously.
Tech tree, ehh not sure. I was never particularly fond of the NS1 tech tree approach but it is easier to get hives in this version, so it might not be a problem.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Agree with all but Bile Bomb. It feels like yet another retreat to an old mechanic when the new ideas meet an obstacle.
And all of it because it's allegedly "too hard" to get Whips near a Marine base... How hard will it be when we have Shifts and we can relocate structures at will? I don't understand what evidence these conclusions are being made from. And incomplete game?
Give Make Whips Uproot faster. Change Bombard to a passive attack and give it Structural damage. Then give Lash (now the targeted ability) a knockback that lifts Marines off the ground momentarily, and allow Whips to use Lash whether Rooted or Uprooted. Then, I don't know, encourage some teamplay? See if it's so hard to get Whips near a Marine base.
<!--quoteo(post=1846864:date=May 17 2011, 10:39 PM:name=KuBaN)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KuBaN @ May 17 2011, 10:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1846864"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Agree with all but Bile Bomb. It feels like yet another retreat to an old mechanic when the new ideas meet an obstacle.
And all of it because it's allegedly "too hard" to get Whips near a Marine base... How hard will it be when we have Shifts and we can relocate structures at will? I don't understand what evidence these conclusions are being made from. And incomplete game?
Give Make Whips Uproot faster. Change Bombard to a passive attack and give it Structural damage. Then give Lash (now the targeted ability) a knockback that lifts Marines off the ground momentarily, and allow Whips to use Lash whether Rooted or Uprooted. Then, I don't know, encourage some teamplay? See if it's so hard to get Whips near a Marine base.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ehh I think it's more fun to have bile bomb on the gorge honestly. It works fine. Gorge is a weak unit but will spend its time supporting other units, and to help this it gets a good anti structure attack but can't really use it by itself. It encourages gorge use on the front lines, it's always available as long as you have plasma, and it doesn't require you to wait for the whip to take its sweet time getting to the base.
Relying on old mechanics is fine if they work, the marines still use guns and have the same basic weapon loadout, because that weapon loadout works. The aliens still use largely the same classes because those classes have a variety of different styles to them.
It's not like the commander needs to have whips as siege weapons, the commander can already support alien sieges with chambers and inestation, the alien comm has plenty to do, the gorge however could use an attack role.
<!--quoteo(post=1846552:date=May 16 2011, 08:28 PM:name=jkflipflop)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jkflipflop @ May 16 2011, 08:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1846552"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Right now there are some big, glaring F-up's in this project. The nonchalance I've seen given to the networking/server code is my #1 concern. Having crappy networking behind this game will end you. You may as well pack it up right now if you're not going to take it seriously. How are you supposed to do <i>anything</i> else while the netcode is jittery crap? You can't make balance tweaks. . . because you don't know what's "balance" and what is the server taking a dump and not registering hits. You're not filtering your background noise and instead are adjusting to fit the haze. This is <b>not</b> how you get results, gentlemen.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
UWE does have enough people in the office to run a lan game every now and then, so they can probably see how the game SHOULD work in a lot of ways you can't.
They can test how guns perform against different aliens without worrrying about server issues. Not to mention it almost certainly performs much better on their computers in general because they're developing on them and won't have any hardware issues.
<!--quoteo(post=1846851:date=May 17 2011, 04:13 PM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ May 17 2011, 04:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1846851"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like the lerk ideas, lets test it how it works out.
Reversing/changing is always possible, dunno why some QQ like the design ideas are set in stone. Everything in this google docs document is subject to change if it doesnt feel/workout right.
PS: No patch today? :,,(?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
QQ?
ill give you a perfect example of what i mean. the armory. i knew from the moment i saw that thing that it would be broken. yes its a cool model but the arms obviously would cause problems. and sure enough they did. now instead of just redesigning the model they stubbornly made it so you can just walk through the arms now. from a creative standpoint why wouldnt they just use one of the other models created for the armory.. ill give you another example, giving marines the ability to weld the power nodes. now I see a lot more rambo style marines running into hives with shotguns taking out res nodes. and now they are even thinking of taking out power nodes and adding in some kind of portable power node. im all for changes but functionality > style. do we really need to test whether or not something works when on paper it doesnt fit?
<!--quoteo(post=1846869:date=May 17 2011, 04:58 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ May 17 2011, 04:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1846869"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->UWE does have enough people in the office to run a lan game every now and then, so they can probably see how the game SHOULD work in a lot of ways you can't.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
how many patches did they release in the past that "worked on lan"
-_-
i thought the whole point of getting testers was to ensure that kinda stuff doesnt happen anymore.
<!--quoteo(post=1846264:date=May 14 2011, 01:38 PM:name=KuBaN)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KuBaN @ May 14 2011, 01:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1846264"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well if it's not broken and nothing is wrong with NS1 then why aren't all of us playing it? Why is anyone here, watching the progress of something NEW? Because we want something NEW, and that has absolutely 0 to do with the fact of NS1 being broken or not<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
wrong, ns2 sorry to say isnt "new" anymore. most players that purchased this game that played ns1 are looking for more visual experience than drastic gameplay changes. if people wanted something "new" then why is blackops breaking sales records? gameplay wise ns1 is a great game, but people want "pretty" too and looking at hl1 engine is mighty hard after playing games with all the bells and whistles of todays games. are you really going to say that if they had ported ns1 over with new maps, a few tiny changes coupled with their great engine that youd .... hate.. the game? really?
kuban sounds more and more like he never experienced ns1, nor does he currently play it to even understand why thousands of players played it over the years.
the reason why ns1 isn't so active as it used to be, the development for it stopped, you get that? stopped. in fact, much of the real development stopped after 3.0 or something, no real work was done for it anymore. this happened for a few reasons, the limit to what can be done with the engine was reached or charlie didn't care anymore for it.
ns1 vs ns2 just comes down to graphics at this point. Venem pretty much said it. Thousands of players told charlie the problems with ns2, just over the years many of them left, and much of the community was replaced with people who never heard of ns1 or actually experienced it, i'm talking about you kuban btw.
I just hope charlie remembers his roots, and starts to port more ideas from ns1.
I definitely wouldn't mind if the bbomb stayed in the game. It's an excellent skill on many levels:
<ul>- The relation between mines and bbomb creates interesting and tense situations on marine defence and adds some much needed dynamics to the defensive situation.
- The immobiliity of the gorge allowed devs to keep bbomb powerful enough to be rewarding to use. Getting the gorge into a good position was a pain, but the results were often devastating and at least I enjoyed gorging despite it being less intense FPS wise.
- In general bbomb is a very dynamic skill. The range, the arc, the adren usage, multiple purposes, even blockability occassionally contributed to the outcome. All in all I think it was one of the skills that often didn't have the One Right Solution, but a handful of viable options in many situations.</li></ul>
So yeah, if there's going to be parts of NS1 transported over the bbomb doesn't seem a bad thing at all. Alongside umbra it's one of the more interesting and well designed 2nd hive abilities. I'd say that for example leap and metabolize - while critical to the gameplay - weren't even close to being as interesting and fun as bbomb.
- bile bomb spreads infestation through bile bomb splash - since infestation suppose to harm marine buildings, bile bomb can still do what it used to do in ns1 - this gives the gorge wider roles to play, either to spread infestation with range and have more offensive roles
as for umbra, someone thought of umbra putting out flamethrower fire, that is really a good idea. it will give aliens better way to counter something that currently aliens having nothing to counter it.
now if lerks had umbra, they would act as a better support class, as they have in ns1. this would create better team work among the aliens.
<!--quoteo(post=1846864:date=May 17 2011, 10:39 PM:name=KuBaN)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KuBaN @ May 17 2011, 10:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1846864"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Give Make Whips Uproot faster. Change Bombard to a passive attack and give it Structural damage. Then give Lash (now the targeted ability) a knockback that lifts Marines off the ground momentarily, and allow Whips to use Lash whether Rooted or Uprooted. Then, I don't know, encourage some teamplay? See if it's so hard to get Whips near a Marine base.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's still not all that helpful to have a basically AI-controlled unit that needs line of sight as your siege unit. A gorge player can at least be clever and fire from just around corners, as well as spot incoming danger and flee at a respectable speed.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1846891:date=May 17 2011, 03:52 PM:name=luns)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (luns @ May 17 2011, 03:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1846891"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->kuban sounds more and more like he never experienced ns1, nor does he currently play it to even understand why thousands of players played it over the years.
the reason why ns1 isn't so active as it used to be, the development for it stopped, you get that? stopped. in fact, much of the real development stopped after 3.0 or something, no real work was done for it anymore. this happened for a few reasons, the limit to what can be done with the engine was reached or charlie didn't care anymore for it.
ns1 vs ns2 just comes down to graphics at this point. Venem pretty much said it. Thousands of players told charlie the problems with ns2, just over the years many of them left, and much of the community was replaced with people who never heard of ns1 or actually experienced it, i'm talking about you kuban btw.
I just hope charlie remembers his roots, and starts to port more ideas from ns1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Development stopped long ago on SC1, yet its still highly played. Active development is not needed to keep up interest and playercount if the game doesn't have major flaws. NS1 more or less died once people realized that it's serious problems were never going to be fixed; so why continue to play a broken mod? UWE is, thankfully, trying to address issues such as the high learning curve and poor scalability that NS1 suffered from in NS2. If NS2 is just NS1 with better graphics, then it will suffer the same fate as NS1 once UWE moves on to other projects.
<!--quoteo(post=1846880:date=May 17 2011, 06:22 PM:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM @ May 17 2011, 06:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1846880"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->if people wanted something "new" then why is blackops breaking sales records?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> For the same reason <b>TERRIBLE</b> blockbuster movies make so much money: they appeal to <b>everyone</b> by appealing to <b>no one</b> in particular. There is very little redeemable sustenance from most of the trash that is "breaking sales records." AAA games sales have <b>A LOT</b> more to do with money (advertising and the strength of the franchise) than any compelling gameplay elements. Most of the games (and movies) that make ass-loads of money now are utterly terrible. Which is another reason why I was following an indie development studio that showed a lot of <b>ambition</b> and <b>innovation</b>, and not E.A., Michael Bay or Uwe Boll (yes they all belong in the same category).
<!--quoteo(post=1846880:date=May 17 2011, 06:22 PM:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM @ May 17 2011, 06:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1846880"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->are you really going to say that if they had ported ns1 over with new maps, a few tiny changes coupled with their great engine that youd .... hate.. the game? really?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Obviously, being an NS1 vet, UWE is going to get my support regardless, but that doesn't really say anything about how I objectively receive the game. It doesn't say anything about how good of a game it is, whether it just makes money or actually pushes the envelope with new, compelling gameplay.
<!--quoteo(post=1846891:date=May 17 2011, 06:52 PM:name=luns)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (luns @ May 17 2011, 06:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1846891"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->kuban sounds more and more like he never experienced ns1, nor does he currently play it to even understand why thousands of players played it over the years.
the reason why ns1 isn't so active as it used to be, the development for it stopped, you get that? stopped. in fact, much of the real development stopped after 3.0 or something, no real work was done for it anymore. this happened for a few reasons, the limit to what can be done with the engine was reached or charlie didn't care anymore for it.
ns1 vs ns2 just comes down to graphics at this point. Venem pretty much said it. Thousands of players told charlie the problems with ns2, just over the years many of them left, and much of the community was replaced with people who never heard of ns1 or actually experienced it, i'm talking about you kuban btw.
I just hope charlie remembers his roots, and starts to port more ideas from ns1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Luns sounds more and more like he has a learning disability. I've just about had it with your stupidity and arrogant condescension. Do you think before you speak? Ever? Look at my Member Number. Now look at yours. I played NS from the Halloween it was released right up until they decided to <strike>destroy it</strike> release Combat.
But hey, you're just in it for the graphics! The thought-provoking graphics! That says enough about you...
<!--quoteo(post=1846901:date=May 17 2011, 07:15 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ May 17 2011, 07:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1846901"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's still not all that helpful to have a basically AI-controlled unit that needs line of sight as your siege unit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Umm.... ARC?
Although now any suggestion I might make that would make it at all similar to the ARC is going to be flamed for sounding too symmetrical...
<!--quoteo(post=1846924:date=May 17 2011, 08:01 PM:name=luns)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (luns @ May 17 2011, 08:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1846924"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->kuban might not like it though he loved the whips having this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'll take your lack of a legitimate response to my argument and your subsequent juvenile stabbing as an attempt at backing down with what you may understand as 'dignity'.
Back on topic:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Will change lerk spikes to be much shorter range, much higher rate of fire, to make sure he enters fights instead of sitting back. Will likely improve his health/armor and/or change his sniping too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm all for making this change to Primary Spikes, but it seems sort of backwards for his Alt Spikes (Snipe-mode). Why not leave the range for Snipe-mode, to further distinguish the functions of the two attacks?
WTF LORKS. Really I mean come on this was one of the few times I have said WOW this class roll is defined and looking good. A distanced hit run. Light Armor possible heavy damage from a distance. Well we have decided we want yet another Close range weak unit AKA the Skulk. COME ON.
<!--quoteo(post=1846920:date=May 18 2011, 12:50 AM:name=KuBaN)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KuBaN @ May 18 2011, 12:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1846920"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Umm.... ARC?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Shoots through walls. So it isn't line of sight, just requires spotting.
Even though I don't want NS2 to become NS1, I do think bilebombs were a good gorge ability, and I'm glad to see them return. I would like them to also spread infestation on explosion. Maybe place a small postule where they explode that grows infestation until it hooks up with a main vein or dies away when it runs out of health not being connected. I want to see gorges a lot more active in infestation spreading, and I think this is a great way of doing that.
<!--quoteo(post=1846942:date=May 17 2011, 08:56 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ May 17 2011, 08:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1846942"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Shoots through walls. So it isn't line of sight, just requires spotting.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ah, I misunderstood what you meant by that. Fair point.
Dammit! Why bilebombs! I don't like bilebombs. I've never liked bilebombs. They're so cheap. Almost griefer-esque. I prefer Onos devour than bilebombs! Why the need for this? Just, pure and simply: <i>why</i>?
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1846970:date=May 17 2011, 11:21 PM:name=CaCa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CaCa @ May 17 2011, 11:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1846970"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Dammit! Why bilebombs! I don't like bilebombs. I've never liked bilebombs. They're so cheap. Almost griefer-esque. I prefer Onos devour than bilebombs! Why the need for this? Just, pure and simply: <i>why</i>?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're comparing a risk/reward tactic that often involves protecting little gorges to an instant removal of the game for 30 seconds ability that is spammed at end game?
No, no. I'm not comparing. I'm just saying, if any of the more "controversial" abilities of NS1 aliens makes it over, I'd rather it be the onos' devour, or even <i>anything else</i>, but that.
I'm not really sure what it is I should be talking about, but I'd like to address the general atmosphere of the conversation. The only reason why I looked into NS2 was because I wanted an updated version of NS1. NS1 was indeed the coolest game ever, it just felt a liittle hack-jobbed around the edges. I don't so much care for bile bomb I guess, but what I really liked about the gorge was building. My favorite feature was how the aliens and marine teams were so different in their gameplay. Marines were very structured hierarchical whereas the aliens were a bit more anarchistic.
Any move toward NS1 gameplay is a good one I think. Of course there are many improvements that could (should) be made, but as far as changes to the core gameplay I am really not up for that.
<!--quoteo(post=1846920:date=May 17 2011, 06:50 PM:name=KuBaN)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KuBaN @ May 17 2011, 06:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1846920"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For the same reason <b>TERRIBLE</b> blockbuster movies make so much money: they appeal to <b>everyone</b> by appealing to <b>no one</b> in particular. There is very little redeemable sustenance from most of the trash that is "breaking sales records." AAA games sales have <b>A LOT</b> more to do with money (advertising and the strength of the franchise) than any compelling gameplay elements. Most of the games (and movies) that make ass-loads of money now are utterly terrible. Which is another reason why I was following an indie development studio that showed a lot of <b>ambition</b> and <b>innovation</b>, and not E.A., Michael Bay or Uwe Boll (yes they all belong in the same category).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
isnt that the whole point of making a video for a mass market? to appeal to as many ppl as possible? hasnt a major arguing point been the "steep" learning curve of ns1? ns1 was a niche game of sorts that a lot of people really enjoyed. my point is it seems that ns2 is just ns in name only, and is being created from the ground up to be very bland, and easy to pick up and play for 10 minutes in between cod6 rounds instead of the deep team orientated game ns1 is.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Obviously, being an NS1 vet, UWE is going to get my support regardless, but that doesn't really say anything about how I objectively receive the game. It doesn't say anything about how good of a game it is, whether it just makes money or actually pushes the envelope with new, compelling gameplay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> the problem i see on the forums that the "new-sees" don't get that the game play of ns1 is just fine. there's nothing really broken about the game play, but its limited by the severely outdated hl1 system it sits on. that game play base could be brought over to ns2 with newer graphics and a few changes. and a lot of the changes just seem like changes for the sake of change. and that argument is backed up even more by the back peddling back to ns1 concepts. if there has to be changes at least add things to the game on top of the already established base that has proven to work.
Comments
Lerks will certainly have the speed (and perhaps maneuverability when the flight model is finalized) to engage in close combat. Besides, the plan (for as much as I know) was always Marines Ranged vs. Alien Melee/Close ranged.
Reversing/changing is always possible, dunno why some QQ like the design ideas are set in stone. Everything in this google docs document is subject to change if it doesnt feel/workout right.
PS: No patch today? :,,(?
Bile bomb on the gorge also a good idea, it works and adds a much needed siege weapon to aliens.
Heal spray is good obviously.
Tech tree, ehh not sure. I was never particularly fond of the NS1 tech tree approach but it is easier to get hives in this version, so it might not be a problem.
Am I miss understanding this?
yes but that makes no sense. skulks are supposed to be the in your face class early game. mid game fades are supposed to be the in your face class (no idea why they think fade should be stealth as the fade is larger than a marine, makes a FLASHY entrance, and instantly becomes target number 1, plus lerks are FAR better for stealth attacks as they can hide in the knooks and shoot spikes and spores from an unknown location). I mean think about it, if a class has the ability to fly, why.. in the heck... would they throw this ability away in favor of suicide attacks with weakened spikes. with the current flight system the marine already is able to maneuver away from spores and spikes pretty easily thanks to sprint and super backspeed. i can understand they want to make changes to the game but a lot of these changes (to me) make 0 sense in the common sense of things unless lerk will be getting the ability to pick up marines and carry them off like eagles lol. idk, just seems like since alpha to now the game just keeps going more and more backwards. i mean they are even adding the arms lab back in. either admit ns1 was balanced and a great game and build on that or at least make changes that make sense. but thats just my opinion.
Bile bomb on the gorge also a good idea, it works and adds a much needed siege weapon to aliens.
Heal spray is good obviously.
Tech tree, ehh not sure. I was never particularly fond of the NS1 tech tree approach but it is easier to get hives in this version, so it might not be a problem.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agree with all but Bile Bomb. It feels like yet another retreat to an old mechanic when the new ideas meet an obstacle.
And all of it because it's allegedly "too hard" to get Whips near a Marine base... How hard will it be when we have Shifts and we can relocate structures at will? I don't understand what evidence these conclusions are being made from. And incomplete game?
Give Make Whips Uproot faster. Change Bombard to a passive attack and give it Structural damage. Then give Lash (now the targeted ability) a knockback that lifts Marines off the ground momentarily, and allow Whips to use Lash whether Rooted or Uprooted. Then, I don't know, encourage some teamplay? See if it's so hard to get Whips near a Marine base.
And all of it because it's allegedly "too hard" to get Whips near a Marine base... How hard will it be when we have Shifts and we can relocate structures at will? I don't understand what evidence these conclusions are being made from. And incomplete game?
Give Make Whips Uproot faster. Change Bombard to a passive attack and give it Structural damage. Then give Lash (now the targeted ability) a knockback that lifts Marines off the ground momentarily, and allow Whips to use Lash whether Rooted or Uprooted. Then, I don't know, encourage some teamplay? See if it's so hard to get Whips near a Marine base.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ehh I think it's more fun to have bile bomb on the gorge honestly. It works fine. Gorge is a weak unit but will spend its time supporting other units, and to help this it gets a good anti structure attack but can't really use it by itself. It encourages gorge use on the front lines, it's always available as long as you have plasma, and it doesn't require you to wait for the whip to take its sweet time getting to the base.
Relying on old mechanics is fine if they work, the marines still use guns and have the same basic weapon loadout, because that weapon loadout works. The aliens still use largely the same classes because those classes have a variety of different styles to them.
It's not like the commander needs to have whips as siege weapons, the commander can already support alien sieges with chambers and inestation, the alien comm has plenty to do, the gorge however could use an attack role.
<!--quoteo(post=1846552:date=May 16 2011, 08:28 PM:name=jkflipflop)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jkflipflop @ May 16 2011, 08:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1846552"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Right now there are some big, glaring F-up's in this project. The nonchalance I've seen given to the networking/server code is my #1 concern. Having crappy networking behind this game will end you. You may as well pack it up right now if you're not going to take it seriously. How are you supposed to do <i>anything</i> else while the netcode is jittery crap? You can't make balance tweaks. . . because you don't know what's "balance" and what is the server taking a dump and not registering hits. You're not filtering your background noise and instead are adjusting to fit the haze. This is <b>not</b> how you get results, gentlemen.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
UWE does have enough people in the office to run a lan game every now and then, so they can probably see how the game SHOULD work in a lot of ways you can't.
They can test how guns perform against different aliens without worrrying about server issues. Not to mention it almost certainly performs much better on their computers in general because they're developing on them and won't have any hardware issues.
Reversing/changing is always possible, dunno why some QQ like the design ideas are set in stone. Everything in this google docs document is subject to change if it doesnt feel/workout right.
PS: No patch today? :,,(?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
QQ?
ill give you a perfect example of what i mean. the armory. i knew from the moment i saw that thing that it would be broken. yes its a cool model but the arms obviously would cause problems. and sure enough they did. now instead of just redesigning the model they stubbornly made it so you can just walk through the arms now. from a creative standpoint why wouldnt they just use one of the other models created for the armory.. ill give you another example, giving marines the ability to weld the power nodes. now I see a lot more rambo style marines running into hives with shotguns taking out res nodes. and now they are even thinking of taking out power nodes and adding in some kind of portable power node. im all for changes but functionality > style. do we really need to test whether or not something works when on paper it doesnt fit?
but "QQ" away, gg
how many patches did they release in the past that "worked on lan"
-_-
i thought the whole point of getting testers was to ensure that kinda stuff doesnt happen anymore.
wrong, ns2 sorry to say isnt "new" anymore. most players that purchased this game that played ns1 are looking for more visual experience than drastic gameplay changes. if people wanted something "new" then why is blackops breaking sales records? gameplay wise ns1 is a great game, but people want "pretty" too and looking at hl1 engine is mighty hard after playing games with all the bells and whistles of todays games. are you really going to say that if they had ported ns1 over with new maps, a few tiny changes coupled with their great engine that youd .... hate.. the game? really?
the reason why ns1 isn't so active as it used to be, the development for it stopped, you get that? stopped.
in fact, much of the real development stopped after 3.0 or something, no real work was done for it anymore.
this happened for a few reasons, the limit to what can be done with the engine was reached or charlie didn't care anymore for it.
ns1 vs ns2 just comes down to graphics at this point. Venem pretty much said it. Thousands of players told charlie the problems with ns2, just over the years many of them left, and much of the community was replaced with people who never heard of ns1 or actually experienced it, i'm talking about you kuban btw.
I just hope charlie remembers his roots, and starts to port more ideas from ns1.
<ul>- The relation between mines and bbomb creates interesting and tense situations on marine defence and adds some much needed dynamics to the defensive situation.
- The immobiliity of the gorge allowed devs to keep bbomb powerful enough to be rewarding to use. Getting the gorge into a good position was a pain, but the results were often devastating and at least I enjoyed gorging despite it being less intense FPS wise.
- In general bbomb is a very dynamic skill. The range, the arc, the adren usage, multiple purposes, even blockability occassionally contributed to the outcome. All in all I think it was one of the skills that often didn't have the One Right Solution, but a handful of viable options in many situations.</li></ul>
So yeah, if there's going to be parts of NS1 transported over the bbomb doesn't seem a bad thing at all. Alongside umbra it's one of the more interesting and well designed 2nd hive abilities. I'd say that for example leap and metabolize - while critical to the gameplay - weren't even close to being as interesting and fun as bbomb.
my idea about bile bomb was like this:
- bile bomb spreads infestation through bile bomb splash
- since infestation suppose to harm marine buildings, bile bomb can still do what it used to do in ns1
- this gives the gorge wider roles to play, either to spread infestation with range and have more offensive roles
as for umbra, someone thought of umbra putting out flamethrower fire, that is really a good idea.
it will give aliens better way to counter something that currently aliens having nothing to counter it.
now if lerks had umbra, they would act as a better support class, as they have in ns1. this would create better team work among the aliens.
It's still not all that helpful to have a basically AI-controlled unit that needs line of sight as your siege unit. A gorge player can at least be clever and fire from just around corners, as well as spot incoming danger and flee at a respectable speed.
the reason why ns1 isn't so active as it used to be, the development for it stopped, you get that? stopped.
in fact, much of the real development stopped after 3.0 or something, no real work was done for it anymore.
this happened for a few reasons, the limit to what can be done with the engine was reached or charlie didn't care anymore for it.
ns1 vs ns2 just comes down to graphics at this point. Venem pretty much said it. Thousands of players told charlie the problems with ns2, just over the years many of them left, and much of the community was replaced with people who never heard of ns1 or actually experienced it, i'm talking about you kuban btw.
I just hope charlie remembers his roots, and starts to port more ideas from ns1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Development stopped long ago on SC1, yet its still highly played. Active development is not needed to keep up interest and playercount if the game doesn't have major flaws. NS1 more or less died once people realized that it's serious problems were never going to be fixed; so why continue to play a broken mod? UWE is, thankfully, trying to address issues such as the high learning curve and poor scalability that NS1 suffered from in NS2. If NS2 is just NS1 with better graphics, then it will suffer the same fate as NS1 once UWE moves on to other projects.
<img src="http://images.sodahead.com/polls/001350241/homer_woohoo_large.jpeg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
For the same reason <b>TERRIBLE</b> blockbuster movies make so much money: they appeal to <b>everyone</b> by appealing to <b>no one</b> in particular. There is very little redeemable sustenance from most of the trash that is "breaking sales records." AAA games sales have <b>A LOT</b> more to do with money (advertising and the strength of the franchise) than any compelling gameplay elements. Most of the games (and movies) that make ass-loads of money now are utterly terrible. Which is another reason why I was following an indie development studio that showed a lot of <b>ambition</b> and <b>innovation</b>, and not E.A., Michael Bay or Uwe Boll (yes they all belong in the same category).
<!--quoteo(post=1846880:date=May 17 2011, 06:22 PM:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM @ May 17 2011, 06:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1846880"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->are you really going to say that if they had ported ns1 over with new maps, a few tiny changes coupled with their great engine that youd .... hate.. the game? really?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Obviously, being an NS1 vet, UWE is going to get my support regardless, but that doesn't really say anything about how I objectively receive the game. It doesn't say anything about how good of a game it is, whether it just makes money or actually pushes the envelope with new, compelling gameplay.
<!--quoteo(post=1846891:date=May 17 2011, 06:52 PM:name=luns)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (luns @ May 17 2011, 06:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1846891"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->kuban sounds more and more like he never experienced ns1, nor does he currently play it to even understand why thousands of players played it over the years.
the reason why ns1 isn't so active as it used to be, the development for it stopped, you get that? stopped.
in fact, much of the real development stopped after 3.0 or something, no real work was done for it anymore.
this happened for a few reasons, the limit to what can be done with the engine was reached or charlie didn't care anymore for it.
ns1 vs ns2 just comes down to graphics at this point. Venem pretty much said it. Thousands of players told charlie the problems with ns2, just over the years many of them left, and much of the community was replaced with people who never heard of ns1 or actually experienced it, i'm talking about you kuban btw.
I just hope charlie remembers his roots, and starts to port more ideas from ns1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Luns sounds more and more like he has a learning disability. I've just about had it with your stupidity and arrogant condescension. Do you think before you speak? Ever? Look at my Member Number. Now look at yours. I played NS from the Halloween it was released right up until they decided to <strike>destroy it</strike> release Combat.
But hey, you're just in it for the graphics! The thought-provoking graphics! That says enough about you...
<!--quoteo(post=1846901:date=May 17 2011, 07:15 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ May 17 2011, 07:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1846901"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's still not all that helpful to have a basically AI-controlled unit that needs line of sight as your siege unit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Umm.... ARC?
Although now any suggestion I might make that would make it at all similar to the ARC is going to be flamed for sounding too symmetrical...
<img src="http://images.sodahead.com/polls/001350241/homer_woohoo_large.jpeg" border="0" class="linked-image" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
that's pretty much how I felt about it. :D
kuban might not like it though he loved the whips having this.
I'll take your lack of a legitimate response to my argument and your subsequent juvenile stabbing as an attempt at backing down with what you may understand as 'dignity'.
Back on topic:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Will change lerk spikes to be much shorter range, much higher rate of fire, to make sure he enters fights instead of sitting back. Will likely improve his health/armor and/or change his sniping too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm all for making this change to Primary Spikes, but it seems sort of backwards for his Alt Spikes (Snipe-mode). Why not leave the range for Snipe-mode, to further distinguish the functions of the two attacks?
Shoots through walls. So it isn't line of sight, just requires spotting.
Ah, I misunderstood what you meant by that. Fair point.
Infestation could provide LOS???
You're comparing a risk/reward tactic that often involves protecting little gorges to an instant removal of the game for 30 seconds ability that is spammed at end game?
Kinda like offensive with skulks other then heal spray.
The only reason why I looked into NS2 was because I wanted an updated version of NS1. NS1 was indeed the coolest game ever, it just felt a liittle hack-jobbed around the edges. I don't so much care for bile bomb I guess, but what I really liked about the gorge was building. My favorite feature was how the aliens and marine teams were so different in their gameplay. Marines were very structured hierarchical whereas the aliens were a bit more anarchistic.
Any move toward NS1 gameplay is a good one I think. Of course there are many improvements that could (should) be made, but as far as changes to the core gameplay I am really not up for that.
isnt that the whole point of making a video for a mass market? to appeal to as many ppl as possible? hasnt a major arguing point been the "steep" learning curve of ns1? ns1 was a niche game of sorts that a lot of people really enjoyed. my point is it seems that ns2 is just ns in name only, and is being created from the ground up to be very bland, and easy to pick up and play for 10 minutes in between cod6 rounds instead of the deep team orientated game ns1 is.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Obviously, being an NS1 vet, UWE is going to get my support regardless, but that doesn't really say anything about how I objectively receive the game. It doesn't say anything about how good of a game it is, whether it just makes money or actually pushes the envelope with new, compelling gameplay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the problem i see on the forums that the "new-sees" don't get that the game play of ns1 is just fine. there's nothing really broken about the game play, but its limited by the severely outdated hl1 system it sits on. that game play base could be brought over to ns2 with newer graphics and a few changes. and a lot of the changes just seem like changes for the sake of change. and that argument is backed up even more by the back peddling back to ns1 concepts.
if there has to be changes at least add things to the game on top of the already established base that has proven to work.