Sounds like a great implementation idea. Not keen on the "hidden" multiplier damage bonus - surely the reason to keep on the move would be to avoid getting shot like a sitting duck!
Otherwise, it seems like it has a lot of potential.
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
edited May 2011
<!--quoteo(post=1847191:date=May 18 2011, 07:27 PM:name=PsiWarp)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PsiWarp @ May 18 2011, 07:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1847191"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Can someone copy past the Fade changes here in a quote? Too many people viewing xD<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Design doc - content subject to change+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Design doc - content subject to change)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->5/18/2011 Decided to change Fade blink to make it less disorienting, more skill-based and to allow marines to interact more with it. Holding right-click will blur, darken and stretch the screen, making it feel like the player has entered a slightly-altered parallel plane. While holding right-click, you fly forward very quickly (faster than NS1) and drain energy. During this time, the Fade will seem to disappear (like the current model). Releasing right-click or running out of energy will blink the Fade back in at his current position. We want to keep the feeling of the current aesthetic, so we’re going to make the energy draining rate and movement rate quite fast, so the Fade is only “gone†for 2-3 seconds max.
We’re also going to try adding a “rush†move where the Fade can move a short distance quickly in any direction by double-tapping that direction. Also thinking about having his Swipe do more damage depending on how far he moved recently - so the first attack after a rush or blink would do more damage (maybe even knock a player back a bit), promoting lots of combat-blinks instead of stationary attacking.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Something I need to make a <i>very</i> strong point about is that what keeps me out of the firefight as a lerk is the current implementation of lerk flight. If I tap space bar, I go nearly straight up. It doesn't give me a directly forward speed boost. This makes the lerk incredibly difficult to use in a tight spot because the only way to build up speed is to glide in circles for a while, and losing that speed is as simple as bumping into a friendly player or rafter.
I am all for aggressive lerk play. The lerk is one of my favourite NS1 units and I greatly look forward to being able to get back into the fight with it... But with the current implementation of flight, any lerk that does get into the thick of it is asking for a quick and brutal death. I like the new ideas on how to change their abilities, but without corresponding changes to lerk flight mechanics I believe it's going to make the lerk <i>appear</i> underpowered and people will either start calling for buffs to abilities that are otherwise fine or just stop playing the class altogether.
I like the changes, this will allow a skilled Fade to double back during Blink and surprise Marines from behind. Question is, will the Fade become intangible to buildings and players and what happens if he reappears in a marine or building O_o?
You can still see marines and structures + collision is still there. So you cant reappear in marines or buildings as far as i understand it.... Only your vision changes(you are faster and invisible) so you know you entered the fade on speed mode.
I wonder if are dmg immune while in this blink mode :O PS: I hope energy drain also depends on how far you moved(faster drain while moving) ... so you can fake it and stand still for 1-2s whitout spending more than 30-50% energy.
Fade changes are interesting, not sure if I entirely agree with them though.
Blink is disorienting yes, the idea of being able to simply move to your blink destination is effective yes, but the speed is what is worrying me.
That sort of speed means that it's going to be very hard to blink accurately.
Instead, I suggest you make it slower, so that you can do it precisely and have a little time to think about it if you want, although obviously it would drain energy if you did so too often, and instead make this new rush move more like current blink.
Tapping a direction twice causes the fade to blink in that direction until they get near a wall or obstacle, if they do it while looking more or less at a marine they jump right in front of the marine, if they tap three times they jump behind the marine (add a .3 second delay or something before the fade enters blink to give time for the third press to be detected) so you can keep the current aesthetic in play, but add the more interesting method of precision blinking and being able to drop out of combat for a few seconds.
Ok now i can say to myself im happy and will be back playing ns2 i really wasn't going to come back because i didn't like that fade blink at all.im glad u changed that
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1847195:date=May 18 2011, 04:32 PM:name=Rokiyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rokiyo @ May 18 2011, 04:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1847195"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Something I need to make a <i>very</i> strong point about is that what keeps me out of the firefight as a lerk is the current implementation of lerk flight. If I tap space bar, I go nearly straight up. It doesn't give me a directly forward speed boost. This makes the lerk incredibly difficult to use in a tight spot because the only way to build up speed is to glide in circles for a while, and losing that speed is as simple as bumping into a friendly player or rafter.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This.
Change it so it causes the lerk to boost in the direction they are pointed (rather than up) and it would be much, much better.
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
I really like the new fade blink idea! Now fades will be able to catch moving marines, and jet-packers! It sounds like a good mix-up between NS1 and the current NS2 blink. Mad probs to UWE ;)
Man, such needless changes... I'm probably alone in this, but I feel like UWE is kinda veering off track in some way I can't put my finger on exactly.
Anyway, I think the fade blink is fine as it is now. Why the need to change it? If it needed any changing, it would be the option for the mouse click to be a toggle (like it is now) or a hold and release. All this crap about actually moving is just unnecessary and overcomplicated.
And aren't there other more immediate concerns? Like adding in the pustules and seeing how those play? And why oh freain' why do they wanna bring the gorge's bilebomb!
<!--quoteo(post=1847235:date=May 18 2011, 09:53 PM:name=CaCa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CaCa @ May 18 2011, 09:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1847235"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Man, such needless changes... I'm probably alone in this, but I feel like UWE is kinda veering off track in some way I can't put my finger on exactly.
Anyway, I think the fade blink is fine as it is now. Why the need to change it? If it needed any changing, it would be the option for the mouse click to be a toggle (like it is now) or a hold and release. All this crap about actually moving is just unnecessary and overcomplicated.
And aren't there other more immediate concerns? Like adding in the pustules and seeing how those play? And why oh freain' why do they wanna bring the gorge's bilebomb!
Ah well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I strongly disagree. The current fade implementation is far from fine. It is disorienting and unwieldy.
But maybe I'm biased because what they are going to do is exactly what I posted a while ago: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=113399&view=findpost&p=1845492" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...t&p=1845492</a>
I guess because after they nerf hydra spam(i can only hope this nerf will come, or at least a bigger hitbox*) gorges would be back to be not that popular.
*so you dont have to waste a full magazine to find the pixel they are dmgable.
<!--quoteo(post=1847236:date=May 18 2011, 11:55 PM:name=FuzionMonkey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FuzionMonkey @ May 18 2011, 11:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1847236"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I strongly disagree. The current fade implementation is far from fine. It is disorienting and unwieldy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, apparently you thought NS1 fade blink was ok. I've always felt NS1 blink to be disorienting and unwieldy like HELL! And this sounds like it's going in that direction. So, can't please everybody all the time, I guess.
NS1 blink worked really well. Reappearing somewhere is much more disorienting than moving fast and given the planned implementation it will probably behave more so like the trailer. Also think the double tap lunge idea might fit in quite well for his type of class.
I like the new changes more than current Blink. New Blink lets you blink around corners without being an obvious Fade (look around corner to teleport), and current Blink is very disorientating for me going from one place to another in an instant. You can often lose track of your whereabouts as well as your target.
I plan on writing more at a later time, i just want to make a quick point ! Playing the game on current build 177 compared to what the builds will be like <b>after</b> major optimizations are out of the way (for client and server) will be extremely different. I truly believe that some aspects of testing are impossible to do accurately untill optimizations are made and things are smoothed out. I myself do not play fade(because of performance issues in my opinion), and through out the 170's builds skulk has often been unplayable as well (definitely in the late game after performance decreases). Lately, as alien, im almost always combat gorge (not hydra spam)
The changes sound interesting for sure, i just would hope to get the chance to <i>properly/actually</i> test the current set up <u>after</u> optimizations are made.... to give proper feed back as well as a proper comparison ! <i>As long as things are not being rushed because of inappropriate pressure from the community...</i> would sum up what im trying to say.... i think. Of course my only experience lies in current public servers with my performance as follows: In action/combat: Good side> 20-25fps Bad side> Mid Teens 14-17fps (Core2 6400 @ 2.13 and 2.54, 2.93gig dualChanRAM, XFXblack GTX260, Asus P5b mainboard) I know people are aware of current server performance and the effects it has on gameplay.
I know people have more powerful computers then i, i know testing can happen over lan. I respect/trust in UWE decisions, obviously !!
I play regularly as They. I have 155hours of NS2 gameplay logged (100% in game, no launchpad, editor, or major AFK time !) I Played Natural selection 1 extensively
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->OMG there are so many people here it won’t let me edit the document if I leave...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is because you put <i>FADE</i> and <i>CHANGES</i> in the same sentance.
The one thing I'm going to be VERY sad to see go is the Fade's ability to blink through geometry.
I like the proposed changes because they aim to make raise the Fades skillcap by giving you finer control, but I would hate to see the new Blink disappear altogether, simply because it presented new possibilities for mappers.
In Tram, the pane of glass that separates Observations from Elevator Transfer has a small hole in it that Skulks and maybe Lerks can squeeze through. Additionally, <!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro-->due to Blinks current implementation, Fades can also get through this hole by Blinking into it<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->. It's a really simple mechanic, but it is a surprisingly FUN one! The implications were very exciting. I was looking forward to more of these "Alien-only Passages" that provided a distinct advantage to most of the Kharaa lifeforms. It actually felt like a "Blink". Honestly the NS1 Blink is more akin to a 'Rush'.
Is it possible to have the best of both? Either with the proposed 'Rush' or 'New & Improved NS1 Blink', <!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro--><b>provide some way for Fades to move through certain geometry/brushes while in this parallel Fading/Blinking state.</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> Allow mappers to mark geometry, props, etc. that would become transparent and traversable when Fading? Ideally, the Fade should only be able to Blink to a location he can see to avoid permitting Blinking into a void.
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
I don't think flying through glass would be a great idea as it would lead to confusion as what is passable and what is a boundary.
Minor props such as railings, crates, and that little cart thing would be fine though. As long as it had like the tf2 clipping pushing them out of the prop if they unblink in them. I often get caught on the smaller props and die.
Comments
Otherwise, it seems like it has a lot of potential.
<!--QuoteBegin-Design doc - content subject to change+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Design doc - content subject to change)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->5/18/2011
Decided to change Fade blink to make it less disorienting, more skill-based and to allow marines to interact more with it. Holding right-click will blur, darken and stretch the screen, making it feel like the player has entered a slightly-altered parallel plane. While holding right-click, you fly forward very quickly (faster than NS1) and drain energy. During this time, the Fade will seem to disappear (like the current model). Releasing right-click or running out of energy will blink the Fade back in at his current position. We want to keep the feeling of the current aesthetic, so we’re going to make the energy draining rate and movement rate quite fast, so the Fade is only “gone†for 2-3 seconds max.
We’re also going to try adding a “rush†move where the Fade can move a short distance quickly in any direction by double-tapping that direction. Also thinking about having his Swipe do more damage depending on how far he moved recently - so the first attack after a rush or blink would do more damage (maybe even knock a player back a bit), promoting lots of combat-blinks instead of stationary attacking.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Here ya go.
I am all for aggressive lerk play. The lerk is one of my favourite NS1 units and I greatly look forward to being able to get back into the fight with it... But with the current implementation of flight, any lerk that does get into the thick of it is asking for a quick and brutal death. I like the new ideas on how to change their abilities, but without corresponding changes to lerk flight mechanics I believe it's going to make the lerk <i>appear</i> underpowered and people will either start calling for buffs to abilities that are otherwise fine or just stop playing the class altogether.
I like the changes, this will allow a skilled Fade to double back during Blink and surprise Marines from behind. Question is, will the Fade become intangible to buildings and players and what happens if he reappears in a marine or building O_o?
I wonder if are dmg immune while in this blink mode :O
PS: I hope energy drain also depends on how far you moved(faster drain while moving) ... so you can fake it and stand still for 1-2s whitout spending more than 30-50% energy.
Blink is disorienting yes, the idea of being able to simply move to your blink destination is effective yes, but the speed is what is worrying me.
That sort of speed means that it's going to be very hard to blink accurately.
Instead, I suggest you make it slower, so that you can do it precisely and have a little time to think about it if you want, although obviously it would drain energy if you did so too often, and instead make this new rush move more like current blink.
Tapping a direction twice causes the fade to blink in that direction until they get near a wall or obstacle, if they do it while looking more or less at a marine they jump right in front of the marine, if they tap three times they jump behind the marine (add a .3 second delay or something before the fade enters blink to give time for the third press to be detected) so you can keep the current aesthetic in play, but add the more interesting method of precision blinking and being able to drop out of combat for a few seconds.
This.
Change it so it causes the lerk to boost in the direction they are pointed (rather than up) and it would be much, much better.
Anyway, I think the fade blink is fine as it is now. Why the need to change it? If it needed any changing, it would be the option for the mouse click to be a toggle (like it is now) or a hold and release. All this crap about actually moving is just unnecessary and overcomplicated.
And aren't there other more immediate concerns? Like adding in the pustules and seeing how those play? And why oh freain' why do they wanna bring the gorge's bilebomb!
Ah well.
Anyway, I think the fade blink is fine as it is now. Why the need to change it? If it needed any changing, it would be the option for the mouse click to be a toggle (like it is now) or a hold and release. All this crap about actually moving is just unnecessary and overcomplicated.
And aren't there other more immediate concerns? Like adding in the pustules and seeing how those play? And why oh freain' why do they wanna bring the gorge's bilebomb!
Ah well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I strongly disagree. The current fade implementation is far from fine. It is disorienting and unwieldy.
But maybe I'm biased because what they are going to do is exactly what I posted a while ago:
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=113399&view=findpost&p=1845492" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...t&p=1845492</a>
*so you dont have to waste a full magazine to find the pixel they are dmgable.
Well, apparently you thought NS1 fade blink was ok. I've always felt NS1 blink to be disorienting and unwieldy like HELL! And this sounds like it's going in that direction.
So, can't please everybody all the time, I guess.
Playing the game on current build 177 compared to what the builds will be like <b>after</b> major optimizations are out of the way (for client and server) will be extremely different. I truly believe that some aspects of testing are impossible to do accurately untill optimizations are made and things are smoothed out. I myself do not play fade(because of performance issues in my opinion), and through out the 170's builds skulk has often been unplayable as well (definitely in the late game after performance decreases). Lately, as alien, im almost always combat gorge (not hydra spam)
The changes sound interesting for sure, i just would hope to get the chance to <i>properly/actually</i> test the current set up <u>after</u> optimizations are made.... to give proper feed back as well as a proper comparison !
<i>As long as things are not being rushed because of inappropriate pressure from the community...</i> would sum up what im trying to say.... i think.
Of course my only experience lies in current public servers with my performance as follows:
In action/combat: Good side> 20-25fps Bad side> Mid Teens 14-17fps
(Core2 6400 @ 2.13 and 2.54, 2.93gig dualChanRAM, XFXblack GTX260, Asus P5b mainboard)
I know people are aware of current server performance and the effects it has on gameplay.
I know people have more powerful computers then i, i know testing can happen over lan.
I respect/trust in UWE decisions, obviously !!
I play regularly as They. I have 155hours of NS2 gameplay logged (100% in game, no launchpad, editor, or major AFK time !)
I Played Natural selection 1 extensively
That is because you put <i>FADE</i> and <i>CHANGES</i> in the same sentance.
Although I'd like to see what it looks like, I'm not sure I'll like it better.
I like the proposed changes because they aim to make raise the Fades skillcap by giving you finer control, but I would hate to see the new Blink disappear altogether, simply because it presented new possibilities for mappers.
In Tram, the pane of glass that separates Observations from Elevator Transfer has a small hole in it that Skulks and maybe Lerks can squeeze through. Additionally, <!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro-->due to Blinks current implementation, Fades can also get through this hole by Blinking into it<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->. It's a really simple mechanic, but it is a surprisingly FUN one! The implications were very exciting. I was looking forward to more of these "Alien-only Passages" that provided a distinct advantage to most of the Kharaa lifeforms. It actually felt like a "Blink". Honestly the NS1 Blink is more akin to a 'Rush'.
Is it possible to have the best of both? Either with the proposed 'Rush' or 'New & Improved NS1 Blink', <!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro--><b>provide some way for Fades to move through certain geometry/brushes while in this parallel Fading/Blinking state.</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> Allow mappers to mark geometry, props, etc. that would become transparent and traversable when Fading? Ideally, the Fade should only be able to Blink to a location he can see to avoid permitting Blinking into a void.
Minor props such as railings, crates, and that little cart thing would be fine though. As long as it had like the tf2 clipping pushing them out of the prop if they unblink in them. I often get caught on the smaller props and die.