<!--quoteo(post=1801454:date=Oct 13 2010, 02:41 PM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spellman23 @ Oct 13 2010, 02:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1801454"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thoughts: <ol type='1'><li>HoN is screwed</li><li>IceFrog is a brilliant game designer? <b>Have they simply ingored all the originally OP heroes he introduced?</b></li><li>HOLY ###### PORTING 100+ HEROES AND THE MAP VERBATIM</li><li>Coaching system sounds good on paper...</li><li>Cost?</li></ol><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> As an old LoL fan... I can personally say OP hero introductions are preferable to UP hero introductions. If a hero is released UP people get in the habit of not using it and it can take him/her forever to actually break into the regular play cycle even long after it's fixed. New content should be exciting. It's nearly impossible to implement a perfectly balanced new hero at the moment of first release, so in my opinion designers should ALWAYS aim on the OP side.
The argument made is that everything IceFrog does he does for a reason. There's your reason. OP heroes was intentional (to some degree anyways)
I don't agree with the "release overpowered, fix later" approach. An underpowered unit/class/hero won't break gameplay when introduced. An overpowered one potentially dominates gameplay, ruining the fun for everyone else until whoever gets around to fixing it. And let's not forget the "wait and see" period, after all maybe it's not really overpowered! People just have trouble adjusting to it!
No, I don't think you should aim for overpowered. Designing something that's overpowered is easy, and it's lazy. You should aim for balance, even if it's hard to get right the first time around. Pick up the pieces from there. After all, hitting the target is more likely if you actually aim at it instead of just pointing your gun straight in the air and firing.
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1802126:date=Oct 20 2010, 02:06 PM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lolfighter @ Oct 20 2010, 02:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1802126"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You should aim for balance, even if it's hard to get right the first time around. Pick up the pieces from there. After all, hitting the target is more likely if you actually aim at it instead of just pointing your gun straight in the air and firing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think you're taking it to an extreme, lolfighter. I think the plan for HoN and to an extent DotA was to be 'mildly' overpowered, then pull it back. The knee jerk reaction from gamers however, is always that Hero <i>x</i> is hopelessly so primarily due to unfamiliarity, which makes it worse.
The only thing I despise from the HoN/DotA hero introduction is that some heroes require far greater work on the part of the player, but offer no reward for that extra play. They ported Sniper as Flint Beastwood for example to HoN, and he's so depressingly one dimensional it hurts. I've no idea, when we have some heroes that are truly interesting to play, or at least have interesting mechanics (Devourer post-remake, Fayde, Chipper) why they'd do this.
If we can create something that is mildly overpowered (and ONLY mildly overpowered), why can't we create something that is balanced? My thinking is that if you aim for balanced and you miss, you're going to get slightly underpowered or slightly overpowered. If you aim for slightly overpowered and miss, you're going to get balanced (yay, fluke!) or very overpowered (though my gut instinct tells me that very overpowered is more likely than balanced in this case). Thus you should aim for balance, not imbalance. Bit silly if you hit your target spot-on only to realize that you were aiming for the wrong one the entire time, isn't it?
You're reading it all wrong. Of course you aim for balanced, but if you're going to make a choice between +5 damage and +6 damage and have no idea which is going to work out, erring on the side of caution means choosing +6.
The game is too damned complex to expect the first version of a hero to be balanced. I've seen it go both ways in HoN:
1. Engineer. New hero. Only hero I've ever had an ANNIHILATION with and all I did was drop my ultimate and sentry.
2. Bubbles. An almost-identical port of DotA's Puck yet needed some loving to bring him up-to-speed.
And Dave- Armadon countering a tri-lane? Madness! Sure he won't get harrased all the way back to his tower as with the other melee heroes but he won't get CK either. And an under-farmed Armadon is pretty crap! I do agree he is overpowered though- rush boots, Helm and Shaman's and you've got a hero you can't attack because it'll trigger extra spines, but you can't leave him as he'll stack spines until they do ridiculous amounts of damage. Even dedicated tank busters like Predator and SR cower in fear of him.
Thankfully, I think tri-lanes are going out of fashion- people are realising the traditional 2-2-1 can beat 3-1-1 with the right line-up. Thunderbringer and MQ especially can beat a tri-lane.
<!--quoteo(post=1802142:date=Oct 20 2010, 08:09 PM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lolfighter @ Oct 20 2010, 08:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1802142"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How about +5.5?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't mean it as in "hmm +5 is too little but +6 is too much", I mean it as "this guy hasn't been tested yet, I have no idea what this value should be"
<!--quoteo(post=1802148:date=Oct 20 2010, 09:50 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Oct 20 2010, 09:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1802148"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't mean it as in "hmm +5 is too little but +6 is too much", I mean it as "this guy hasn't been tested yet, I have no idea what this value should be"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wouldn't it be an idea to do some internal testing with different values to see what works then?
<!--quoteo(post=1802129:date=Oct 20 2010, 09:30 AM:name=Shockwave)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shockwave @ Oct 20 2010, 09:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1802129"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The only thing I despise from the HoN/DotA hero introduction is that some heroes require far greater work on the part of the player, but offer no reward for that extra play. They ported Sniper as Flint Beastwood for example to HoN, and he's so depressingly one dimensional it hurts. I've no idea, when we have some heroes that are truly interesting to play, or at least have interesting mechanics (Devourer post-remake, Fayde, Chipper) why they'd do this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah. Which is why I'm extra concerned about the pure porting of the original DotA heroes.
Granted, HoN originally screwed up with only porting a small subset of heroes and forgetting a few critical counters. You know, like Silencer/Vindicator to counter the omg combo ######s.
However, there are some legacy heroes from DotA that I really wouldn't miss, and LoL and HoN have been showing some of the new cool mechanics we can do now that we're not hacking the WC3 engine. Are we really gonna cater to the olde "pros" and step back to what we already had?
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1802144:date=Oct 20 2010, 07:36 PM:name=sherpa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (sherpa @ Oct 20 2010, 07:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1802144"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And Dave- Armadon countering a tri-lane? Madness! Sure he won't get harrased all the way back to his tower as with the other melee heroes but he won't get CK either. And an under-farmed Armadon is pretty crap! I do agree he is overpowered though- rush boots, Helm and Shaman's and you've got a hero you can't attack because it'll trigger extra spines, but you can't leave him as he'll stack spines until they do ridiculous amounts of damage. Even dedicated tank busters like Predator and SR cower in fear of him.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh, his CK can go through the floor, but you can adjust build to make things more difficult for them than just giving a carry free-farm, and deny them the ganks they generally get. Challice is still quickly gotten, and you end up spending money on Health pots, but you rattle off spines as often as possible, and start using more Armadillo than normal and make their farm equally dangerous. It all fails if they're running Voodoo, sadly, who just eats people alive in a tri-lane.
DOTA2? Bring on Invoker, Meepo & Lanaya for me, I'll be delighted to play them all again.
So someone mentioned LoL earlier, I just discovered LoL this week by way of my cousin, and it seems to have the potential for fun times.
Is anyone else LoLing at present? I've got plenty of people to play with by way of my cousin's friends but he's 15 so... yeah.
I'm on the North American server, which is the part of North America located in the South Pacific, just west of New Zealand. <span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>I'm in Australia.</span>
<!--quoteo(post=1802753:date=Oct 25 2010, 09:30 PM:name=Nil_IQ)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nil_IQ @ Oct 25 2010, 09:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1802753"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Is anyone else LoLing at present? I've got plenty of people to play with by way of my cousin's friends but he's 15 so... yeah.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Add spellman23. Granted, I don't have time to play every day...
<!--quoteo(post=1802232:date=Oct 22 2010, 02:23 AM:name=Shockwave)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shockwave @ Oct 22 2010, 02:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1802232"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh, his CK can go through the floor, but you can adjust build to make things more difficult for them than just giving a carry free-farm, and deny them the ganks they generally get. Challice is still quickly gotten, and you end up spending money on Health pots, but you rattle off spines as often as possible, and start using more Armadillo than normal and make their farm equally dangerous. It all fails if they're running Voodoo, sadly, who just eats people alive in a tri-lane.
DOTA2? Bring on Invoker, Meepo & Lanaya for me, I'll be delighted to play them all again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
None of the words you used here make any sense whatsoever. Seriously this is worse than horse racing.
<!--quoteo(post=1804843:date=Nov 7 2010, 03:56 PM:name=Scythe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Scythe @ Nov 7 2010, 03:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1804843"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->None of the words you used here make any sense whatsoever. Seriously this is worse than horse racing.
--Scythe--<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And once again why DotA continues to baffle the common gamer....
<!--quoteo(post=1804960:date=Nov 8 2010, 10:45 PM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SentrySteve @ Nov 8 2010, 10:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1804960"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the best part about hon is how every player is so insane, angry, and easy to troll. that's the only enjoyment I get from the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I made someone ragequit yesterday, that was fun. Unfortunately he was on my team so :(
go in with a different personality every time and act like someone else. Some of my favorites:
1) Guy with really strong accent who hates americans. Naturally, you should only be playing on USA servers. For added rage pretend to be muslim. 2) A father who is playing the game with his son/daughter, act like a parent 3) An arrogant american who hates foreigners, naturally, play on their servers. For added rage target latin americans as dota is like their national sport. 4) Be an elitist who just makes up stuff and calls everyone else bad while using competitive dota terms but make sure it doesn't make sense ("lol at best valk is tri lane based support assuming you use the dakota item build"). I also like to say at some point that i'm a 2008 dota WCG champion. 5) A spoiled kid who intensely rages. "I'M GOING BOT OR I QUIT... ARMADON I SAID IM BOT DO YOU WANT ME TO LEAVE?!?!?!" You have to scream into the mic for this one to work.
The rage factor really multiples when you have several people all doing it.
It makes hon/dota <i>way</i> more playable and it's the only playerbase that consistently falls for this kind of crap.
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
That meme makes me all stabby way more than any of the actual trolling that leads to it. I don't know which part upsets me more, it working on people, or the fact it's inane enough to exist. And Align; it's SentrySteve, he's always been part of the problem. *Grin*
League of Legends lacks any kind of in-game voice comms, but given my experiences with xbox live, I think that's a blessing in disguise.
In my defence I didn't <i>mean</i> to make the guy ragequit, he just decided that because he plowed headlong into an enemy ambush and died 3 times in a row, clearly it was my fault for not supporting him. I then proceeded to mock him mercilessly for this attitude.
I also only became aware of "u mad" as a meme about a week ago. I'm kind of glad i'm so out-of-touch with internet memes now tbh.
<!--quoteo(post=1805340:date=Nov 11 2010, 08:23 PM:name=Nil_IQ)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nil_IQ @ Nov 11 2010, 08:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1805340"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->League of Legends lacks any kind of in-game voice comms, but given my experiences with xbox live, I think that's a blessing in disguise.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To be honest, at the level of HoN I played VOIP was a measured grace and invaluable. Dunno if there's more mic morons in the LoL community that are just being shut down due to no mic support. Also, when I play with friends we setup skype/vent 'cause there's no better way to communicate.
And yeah, xbox live is legendary for stupid mic crap.
I'm also a great fan of "why didn't you guys call missing?" when we said it 2 times 2 minutes ago. Or the "hm, everyone disappeared. I bet this is a GREAT time to push their tower by myself" players.
<!--quoteo(post=1804843:date=Nov 7 2010, 07:56 PM:name=Scythe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Scythe @ Nov 7 2010, 07:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1804843"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--QuoteBegin-Shockwave+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shockwave)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Oh, his CK can go through the floor, but you can adjust build to make things more difficult for them than just giving a carry free-farm, and deny them the ganks they generally get. Challice is still quickly gotten, and you end up spending money on Health pots, but you rattle off spines as often as possible, and start using more Armadillo than normal and make their farm equally dangerous. It all fails if they're running Voodoo, sadly, who just eats people alive in a tri-lane.
DOTA2? Bring on Invoker, Meepo & Lanaya for me, I'll be delighted to play them all again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
None of the words you used here make any sense whatsoever. Seriously this is worse than horse racing.
--Scythe-- <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh, LoL is way simpler.
If you want good elo, theres a few things you have to bear in mind:
- If their MS is too high for you to gank them, try to root them or just AOE their ass, and maybe pick up some boots if you haven't already.
- Don't push if the DPS you're laned with is MIA, especially if it's Yi with Highlander, unless you know he's basing
- Don't feed their carry, if you have to base make sure you juke.
- Watch out if their DPS is jungling, he might be about to ulti you from the brush, especially if its Garen with Demacian justice.
- Make sure you don't run OOM when their nuker has his ulti, and just farm for the first 10 minutes if you're a carry.
- The GKN can always BP you if you're DT. Don't KG them, especially if they're BNFF.
Really its incredibly straightforward and couldn't be more simple.
Comments
<ol type='1'><li>HoN is screwed</li><li>IceFrog is a brilliant game designer? <b>Have they simply ingored all the originally OP heroes he introduced?</b></li><li>HOLY ###### PORTING 100+ HEROES AND THE MAP VERBATIM</li><li>Coaching system sounds good on paper...</li><li>Cost?</li></ol><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As an old LoL fan... I can personally say OP hero introductions are preferable to UP hero introductions. If a hero is released UP people get in the habit of not using it and it can take him/her forever to actually break into the regular play cycle even long after it's fixed. New content should be exciting. It's nearly impossible to implement a perfectly balanced new hero at the moment of first release, so in my opinion designers should ALWAYS aim on the OP side.
The argument made is that everything IceFrog does he does for a reason. There's your reason. OP heroes was intentional (to some degree anyways)
I don't agree with the "release overpowered, fix later" approach. An underpowered unit/class/hero won't break gameplay when introduced. An overpowered one potentially dominates gameplay, ruining the fun for everyone else until whoever gets around to fixing it. And let's not forget the "wait and see" period, after all maybe it's not really overpowered! People just have trouble adjusting to it!
No, I don't think you should aim for overpowered. Designing something that's overpowered is easy, and it's lazy. You should aim for balance, even if it's hard to get right the first time around. Pick up the pieces from there. After all, hitting the target is more likely if you actually aim at it instead of just pointing your gun straight in the air and firing.
I think you're taking it to an extreme, lolfighter. I think the plan for HoN and to an extent DotA was to be 'mildly' overpowered, then pull it back. The knee jerk reaction from gamers however, is always that Hero <i>x</i> is hopelessly so primarily due to unfamiliarity, which makes it worse.
The only thing I despise from the HoN/DotA hero introduction is that some heroes require far greater work on the part of the player, but offer no reward for that extra play. They ported Sniper as Flint Beastwood for example to HoN, and he's so depressingly one dimensional it hurts. I've no idea, when we have some heroes that are truly interesting to play, or at least have interesting mechanics (Devourer post-remake, Fayde, Chipper) why they'd do this.
1. Engineer. New hero. Only hero I've ever had an ANNIHILATION with and all I did was drop my ultimate and sentry.
2. Bubbles. An almost-identical port of DotA's Puck yet needed some loving to bring him up-to-speed.
And Dave- Armadon countering a tri-lane? Madness! Sure he won't get harrased all the way back to his tower as with the other melee heroes but he won't get CK either. And an under-farmed Armadon is pretty crap! I do agree he is overpowered though- rush boots, Helm and Shaman's and you've got a hero you can't attack because it'll trigger extra spines, but you can't leave him as he'll stack spines until they do ridiculous amounts of damage. Even dedicated tank busters like Predator and SR cower in fear of him.
Thankfully, I think tri-lanes are going out of fashion- people are realising the traditional 2-2-1 can beat 3-1-1 with the right line-up. Thunderbringer and MQ especially can beat a tri-lane.
I don't mean it as in "hmm +5 is too little but +6 is too much", I mean it as "this guy hasn't been tested yet, I have no idea what this value should be"
Wouldn't it be an idea to do some internal testing with different values to see what works then?
Yeah. Which is why I'm extra concerned about the pure porting of the original DotA heroes.
Granted, HoN originally screwed up with only porting a small subset of heroes and forgetting a few critical counters. You know, like Silencer/Vindicator to counter the omg combo ######s.
However, there are some legacy heroes from DotA that I really wouldn't miss, and LoL and HoN have been showing some of the new cool mechanics we can do now that we're not hacking the WC3 engine. Are we really gonna cater to the olde "pros" and step back to what we already had?
Oh, his CK can go through the floor, but you can adjust build to make things more difficult for them than just giving a carry free-farm, and deny them the ganks they generally get. Challice is still quickly gotten, and you end up spending money on Health pots, but you rattle off spines as often as possible, and start using more Armadillo than normal and make their farm equally dangerous. It all fails if they're running Voodoo, sadly, who just eats people alive in a tri-lane.
DOTA2? Bring on Invoker, Meepo & Lanaya for me, I'll be delighted to play them all again.
Is anyone else LoLing at present? I've got plenty of people to play with by way of my cousin's friends but he's 15 so... yeah.
I'm on the North American server, which is the part of North America located in the South Pacific, just west of New Zealand. <span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>I'm in Australia.</span>
Add spellman23. Granted, I don't have time to play every day...
rawr and stuff
DOTA2? Bring on Invoker, Meepo & Lanaya for me, I'll be delighted to play them all again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
None of the words you used here make any sense whatsoever. Seriously this is worse than horse racing.
--Scythe--
--Scythe--<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And once again why DotA continues to baffle the common gamer....
I made someone ragequit yesterday, that was fun. Unfortunately he was on my team so :(
1) Guy with really strong accent who hates americans. Naturally, you should only be playing on USA servers. For added rage pretend to be muslim.
2) A father who is playing the game with his son/daughter, act like a parent
3) An arrogant american who hates foreigners, naturally, play on their servers. For added rage target latin americans as dota is like their national sport.
4) Be an elitist who just makes up stuff and calls everyone else bad while using competitive dota terms but make sure it doesn't make sense ("lol at best valk is tri lane based support assuming you use the dakota item build"). I also like to say at some point that i'm a 2008 dota WCG champion.
5) A spoiled kid who intensely rages. "I'M GOING BOT OR I QUIT... ARMADON I SAID IM BOT DO YOU WANT ME TO LEAVE?!?!?!" You have to scream into the mic for this one to work.
The rage factor really multiples when you have several people all doing it.
It makes hon/dota <i>way</i> more playable and it's the only playerbase that consistently falls for this kind of crap.
In my defence I didn't <i>mean</i> to make the guy ragequit, he just decided that because he plowed headlong into an enemy ambush and died 3 times in a row, clearly it was my fault for not supporting him. I then proceeded to mock him mercilessly for this attitude.
I also only became aware of "u mad" as a meme about a week ago. I'm kind of glad i'm so out-of-touch with internet memes now tbh.
To be honest, at the level of HoN I played VOIP was a measured grace and invaluable. Dunno if there's more mic morons in the LoL community that are just being shut down due to no mic support. Also, when I play with friends we setup skype/vent 'cause there's no better way to communicate.
And yeah, xbox live is legendary for stupid mic crap.
I'm also a great fan of "why didn't you guys call missing?" when we said it 2 times 2 minutes ago. Or the "hm, everyone disappeared. I bet this is a GREAT time to push their tower by myself" players.
Oh, his CK can go through the floor, but you can adjust build to make things more difficult for them than just giving a carry free-farm, and deny them the ganks they generally get. Challice is still quickly gotten, and you end up spending money on Health pots, but you rattle off spines as often as possible, and start using more Armadillo than normal and make their farm equally dangerous. It all fails if they're running Voodoo, sadly, who just eats people alive in a tri-lane.
DOTA2? Bring on Invoker, Meepo & Lanaya for me, I'll be delighted to play them all again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
None of the words you used here make any sense whatsoever. Seriously this is worse than horse racing.
--Scythe--
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh, LoL is way simpler.
If you want good elo, theres a few things you have to bear in mind:
- If their MS is too high for you to gank them, try to root them or just AOE their ass, and maybe pick up some boots if you haven't already.
- Don't push if the DPS you're laned with is MIA, especially if it's Yi with Highlander, unless you know he's basing
- Don't feed their carry, if you have to base make sure you juke.
- Watch out if their DPS is jungling, he might be about to ulti you from the brush, especially if its Garen with Demacian justice.
- Make sure you don't run OOM when their nuker has his ulti, and just farm for the first 10 minutes if you're a carry.
- The GKN can always BP you if you're DT. Don't KG them, especially if they're BNFF.
Really its incredibly straightforward and couldn't be more simple.