<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A bomb drop/launch attack would be totally awesome.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ye, but I wouldn't want it to be an innate ability, since that would rob something from gorge. Lerk-taxi does the same job after you pick up a gorge and is fun to boot. Picking up the bombs from some structure would be okay too. There could be multiple types of bombs.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A short range (no shooting to the end of a long hallway) low rate of fire (3 second recharge) high damage (3 well placed shots per kill) easily aimed spike shotgun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Now that's a good idea. Something that gives a little bit range, can be used while flying, and can actually kill stuff. Lerk-taxi with a shotgun and gorge bombs. I'd love it :D
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A decent lerk is practically immune to lmg fire while in flight<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Nah, in NS1 it was enough for the rines to have one guy with a good aim to annihilate all lerks. (Or one aim-bot, which you could never prove.) All it took to die was to be either too far, too close, at a turning point, or too slow. Why bother when skulks do the same job for free? Of course, there's a few peeps who liked it, but I can say confidently that for the majority of us it's just not worth it.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1795744:date=Aug 22 2010, 04:53 PM:name=Wirhe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wirhe @ Aug 22 2010, 04:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1795744"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why bother when skulks do the same job for free?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Because they fart all sorts of colors!
I like to also point out, that combat lerks makes marine playing also much interesting. Because in NS1 every lifeform are totally different from each others, you have to also play differently against them. A marine could be really good against fades but bad against lerks and vice versa.
Shooting good combat lerk is act of art, and it's not about "reflexes" at all. Key is to know when to shoot, basically you have to predict a lerk movement before it actually move. Shooting dodging lerk is waste of time and bullets, but if lerk wants to do damage to you, he have to move more directly toward you and that is when you shoot. Shooting lerks is all about gamesense.
I actually have good example about this. I used train my lmg aim against Scale's combat lerk. That was 3.1, so lerk speed was faster than it is now, and Scale was one the best lerks ever. Rules were simply: one hive cele lerk vs. regular marine in topo. Because Scale didn't have any other choice than attack me I could easily predict his movement. I won almost every time. Still Scale could carry our alien’s rounds by his lerking in competitive matches. I hope this proof how much lerking is about gamesense and teamwork.
Lerk has always been supporting unit, bite only made that supporting much more interesting. <a href="http://www.ensl.org/movies/158" target="_blank">http://www.ensl.org/movies/158</a> There few good clips about combat lerking in that movie, and how it all about teamwork and gamesense.
So, the one thing that irks me the most about the concept of lerk spikes instead of bite is how it will affect the dynamics of lerk vs. Jetpack combat. In NS1, a lerk with celerity (and focus, ideally) was the perfect tool to clear out a group of jetpackers shotgunning down a hive. Sure leaping skulks and a fade who is good with blink could get in the occasional hit, but it was the incomparable maneuverability of the lerk coupled with the solid damage of a well timed bite that made the best tool to take down jetpackers efficiently in NS1. Good lerks could do this while keeping umbra up on the hive, giving the aliens a fighting chance against teched up marines.
With the substitution of spikes for bite, I don't see lerks being able to make a dent in a group of jetpackers with good teamwork. Primarily because jetpackers can fly in any direction while lerk flight only goes in a forward direction, jetpackers with ranged weapons will have an enormous advantage over lerks using ranged spikes. A jetpacker can circle-strafe or fly backwards and target the lerk, while the lerk will basically be forced to sit on the ground if they want to be able to aim their spikes at all. Just so everyone knows what I'm talking about, jetpackers still use the keyboard to control their movement direction, which keeps their mouse input free to control their aim. Lerks however, control their flight direction with mouselook, which means that they would have to somehow use their mouse input to both aim AND control their flight. The end result of this is that lerks in flight will only be able to hit marines that they are flying at head on (obviously this is a bad idea for lerks since marines have superior defenses AND more firepower).
That said, I think the idea of shotgun spikes is a great compromise between the two positions. It prevents the potentially lame conclusion that lerks are forced to vent camp or be mostly worthless, while still keeping a ranged option available. Most importantly however, it provides lerks with a way of doing damage that is a burst rather than a continuous stream, which requires a degree of aiming that will likely be impossible to achieve with the current lerk flight model, unless the lerk is sitting on the ground.
I also want to address a couple of other points that people have made. I personally think that lerk lift is a terrible idea. In vanilla NS1, a wall walking skulk(s) could boost a gorge into MOST vents, and I think this is more than enough. The fact is that mappers need a way to have certain vents inaccessible to gorges simply for balance, and lerk lift would make that nearly impossible. Furthermore, gorges are supposed to be a building/support class with a little more toughness than a skulk early game. This is a role that they were excellent at in NS1, where a healspraying gorge or two could completely change the outcome of an early clash between lmg marines and skulks between being bullet sponges and providing healing. I imagine that this will be doubly true in NS2, where the crag will provide a buff to gorge healspray (called bacteria, see the Crag update). However, this support ability as well as the ability to build structures is offset by limited mobility, which I think is a defining part of the class. A gorge who is good at bhopping could still get away from a marine most of the time, but it was a close thing. Lerk lift will negate any risk of a gorge being stranded when the other aliens are forced to flee from a superior force of marines.
Finally, I just don't think that lerk bombs are a necessary addition. Having lerks be the type of alien that both bilebombs AND spores puts aliens at a disadvantage in siege situations. Spores are meant to be an area denial weapon, triggering a DoT on marines that stay in the spored area. It is easy to use and can generally be applied from relative safety. Bilebombs are more for AoE structure damage and they require the gorge (or lerk in this case) to be pretty close to the targeted structures. However, in a siege defense situation, you probably need both if the marines are well coordinated and have good aim. I can say from experience that in clan matches in NS1, losing your spore lerk against a siege attempt very frequently spelled defeat, as the loss of a hive is difficult to recover from. Making the lerk responsible for BOTH duties forces a lerk adopt a vulnerable position (directly above the target buildings), and it means that if marines can kill the lerk(s), then they have essentially already destroyed the hive.
You may try to counter my argument by saying that a lerk bomb would be purely supplemental, and that another alien could provide the standard bilebombing that is often required to destroy large groups of buildings. However, if this is the case, why would anyone even use a lerk bomb? Siege defense and area denial are better achieved by spores.
The problem with spikes is in order to use them effectively without dying, you have to stop moving. If you tried flying and dive bombing. You were stopped by low ceilings due to map design standards. And when flying at the marine, the marines damage was greater than your damage so if he started shooting while you dive bombed. He killed you nearly instantly since you were flying straight at him. You will almost have to use it like a bite and just stay in close and make them lose sight of you. When you aren't moving though, you are an easy target for ranged fire and grenades. The lerk was made to be quick and agile though and shouldn't even be allowed to sit still.
The bite is much more effective compared to spike on modded NS1 servers that have spike.
I still think you should get both spikes and bite. Making lerk versatile in both early and late game. Early game you can take some damage and use bite effectively. Late game you die nearly in 1 shot and would have to stay back and be supportive. Lerk early game is a must as well as late game.
You can glance and shoot some spikes and spore and then bite when up close. Then you can balance the damage out as the lerk bite shouldn't be very good as it is much smaller than the skulk and it would require all 3 weapons to be in use to be effective making a bit tougher.
You can't just make it so lerk has autoaim ofcourse and have bomber view or camera turning and all that... It would ruin the game I think. Camera viewing angles is always a problem with games. You could always make it so 1 player is a gunner and can turn and shoot spikes wherever and another player is the pilot. That would be interesting... A fun little mod though as it isn't effective. Give the alien commander that role :)
Don't make the lerk similar to a marine that has the ability to fly and do AoE damage. Bite+Spikes+Spores please. Make the lerk require skill as it always has. Rather than rewarding newbies for standing still and pushing a single mouse button.
Just like a sparrow or other bird that defends its nest. They fly at you and peck you in the head. Make a lerk like that. Bite preferably... But... The proposal of a shotgun style is interesting but that just makes it a medium range bite basically. I would prefer that over the constant shooting of spikes and spores needed to get a kill of course. And you would have to balance it versus the marine shotgun and such. But I would still like bite.
It will be spikes vs grenades on too many occasions and many lerks will be lost in this battle as grenades will be in great supply and are highly effective. A 30 res life form that takes a bit to get versus a marine that respawns and just grabs some grenades and spams them. The NS2 Devs need to consider something here.
<!--quoteo(post=1795741:date=Aug 22 2010, 03:30 PM:name=Sublime)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sublime @ Aug 22 2010, 03:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1795741"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Chris0132, you say you don't want to develop shooting skills but you want spike. What? I might make a video of a match where I talk about all of the things I'm thinking about. It might help you realise that lerk is a strategic, intelligent class.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Spikes can be made easy to hit with, and in general it's easy to track something as slow as a marine if you're stationary.
As I said, I have no doubt that if you have the reflex skills to control the aliens and you're fighting against equally good marines they can be strategic, but as I also said, there's no amount of thought that will make you win as aliens unless you are able to control the things in the first place, which is quite difficult. If you can fly and shoot accurately and the marines can't track you, strategy is irrelevant because you can win just by being hard to hit. Similarly if you can't fly properly no amount of intelligent attack angles or whatever will help you. It's always reflex first, the strategy comes only from the strategy automatically inherent in anything. You can play modern warfare 2 strategically if you want, but reflex skills will get you much further.
I want something purely thought based, like the gorge, except while gorges are kinda slow, a lerk is more mobile, between the gorge and lerk you could cover almost any situation with a thought based option.
Chris0132, I think you have the wrong game if you "want something purely thought based, like the gorge." NS1 was probably 60%/40% twitch skills/strategy or tactics if you played it at a high level. Player skill would make certain strategies very powerful, while these same strategies would be suicidal if attempted by less skilled players. If you want to think and not shoot/bite things, you should probably stick to commanding. Even gorges require aim to spit at things. I think you need to accept that the bottom line of NS has always been twitch skills, while the strategy element that comes with the RTS/Commander mode is kind of the icing on the cake that makes NS greater than other shooters. Play Starcraft 2 if you want to think things out and counter strategy X with strategy Y without taking twitch skills into consideration (though I would still argue that twitch skills are incredibly important in SC2, just to a lesser degree than a shooter game).
It strikes me as a little ridiculous that you would come into a bite vs. spikes discussion and argue that an alien's entire role should be shifted to suit your tastes. Lerks are probably one of the MOST twitch skill required alien types based solely on their defensive movements before you even consider their attack types (tied with fades imo), and I think it would be a huge mistake to change that. Why bother giving an alien flight if he's supposed to be a chess player?
Plus, you're entire argument is flawed. you say you want lerks to be a "thinking" class like the gorge, but more mobile. That increased mobility inherently requires greater twitch skills than a plodding/sliding gorge does (which is not to say that gorges shouldn't require twitch skills).
Lastly, keeping spikes in their current state doesn't even make lerks a more "thinking man's" alien, it makes them a less useful overall alien. A lerk without spikes OR bite could be used in the manner which you seem to desire. The point that people are making is that if spikes require a lerk to sit somewhere with a direct line of fire to a marine and stream spikes at them, then no good lerk will ever use them. Marines will always have more firepower than aliens at range, which is as it should be. Even playing a cautious spore spamming vent lerk is difficult against great players who can aim at you with pinpoint precision and empty an entire pistol clip in half a second. There were lots of players in NS1 that game me this kind of concern, do you really think people won't achieve that level of skill in NS2?
Marines are always going to have firepower over aliens. This is part of the game, and the incongruity is part of what makes NS so unique and enjoyable to play. You seem to want to have aliens that can counter marines with pure strategy or numbers (hp, armor, etc.) instead of twitch skill. The game can NEVER be balanced this way because some people are EXTREMELY twitch skilled which, when coupled with a numbers advantage, will make them impossible, or at least overly difficult to beat. Anything that would make this kind of balancing possible would neuter the shooter type game play that is the bedrock of NS.
Mobility does not require twitch, another TF2 example is the spy, the spy is highly mobile because of its stealth ability, it can get anywhere, but you don't play it like the scout.
I would rather the lerk be given spikes, and use its flight to reach good locations, then hide out there and strike at marines when they aren't looking, when they get wise to you, move somewhere else with a simple flight model and attack again when they can't see you. Or better still, know the map and move somewhere else entirely and attack from a different direction while the marines are looking for you in your old location. I don't think spikes would be appropriate for a lerk that is constantly flying around, and I also think that lerk mobility and weapons are intrinsically linked, you can't discuss changing the weapons without discussing the movement because moving from bite to spike or vice versa has a massive impact on what sort of mobility the class needs and can use.
If you're going to say 'stop changing the game and leave' then what's the point of posting suggestions? I like parts of NS1, and dislike others, I'm going to suggest changing the parts I dislike, the lack of primariliy strategic classes for the aliens is one of the things I dislike, the marines already seem to be getting things which cater to that playstyle with things like flamethrowers and miniguns, both of which obviously cannot be twitch based, and I would like to see similar options for the aliens. The gorge is already getting a good expansion of its strategic role with the fast-growing hydras and mobility skills, and changing the lerk to cover all the roles the gorge doesn't would be ideal.
Most of the balance of NS2 comes from making it entirely based on player skill, you win or lose based on how you play because everything is high damage, you can do a lot of damage if you're good and you can do no damage if you aren't, making the actual DPS of weapons less important, because they're all more or less above the point where the exact numbers matter.
What I'm suggesting is entirely based on that idea, it simply uses a <i>different</i> skill set. Twitch is not the only skillset available, to use the spy example again, I suck at it, because I don't really like playing it but I have played it enough to know that it is almost entirely about picking your targets and knowing where to escape to and how to misdirect your enemy. It depends massively on your spatial awareness skill rather than your ablity to control your mouse and character perfectly. Again if you want an example of the difference between twitch and strategy, take scout and spy in TF2, both are high mobility classes, but one emphasises fast reflexes and one fast thought.
Also yes starcraft is stupidly twitch based, and a pretty terrible RTS. For RTS I would play total war or supreme commander.
I think you're missing the point. You simply CANNOT play an alien in the manner that you are suggesting. If NS2 bears any resemblance to NS1, then an alien that isn't moving is a dead alien. Flying from perch to perch simply WILL NOT WORK against good players who check their corners and can aim. It doesn't make the lerk more strategic, it makes it less strategic since the method of use you advocate is not viable. Granted this is somewhat based on playing NS1, but I assume the games will be similar at a basic level (otherwise a lot of dedicated fans are going to be pissed off).
You talk about a lerk using knowledge of the map to attack from various directions as if this isn't countered by a marine that knows the maps, and which spots are vulnerable from which direction. Good players will be on their guard accordingly. Furthermore, I don't know if you remember the SOUNDS that a lerk made in NS1, but they were probably the noisiest alien out there. Lots of wing flapping and random squawks. Not exactly cut out to be a stealth sniper.
Finally, if you look at competitive TF2, you'll realize that your spy analogy was a good one, but it isn't helpful to your argument. Yes, spies use cloaking to get around, but are vulnerable once revealed. They are also almost NEVER used in competitive play. The standard set up is 2 soldiers, 2 scouts, a demoman, and a medic right? Very few teams vary from this tried and true formula. If the lerk is made into what you advocate, it might be the same way with lerks in NS. It turns a unique and genuinely fun alien type into a spore b!tch, who sits, barely mobile, and does the same inane task over and over.
Also, it's laughable to suggest that any alternative marine weapon is going to reduce the amount of twitch required to play them. Holding a flamethrower or minigun might appear to make twitch reactions less valuable overall, but really all it does is shift the twitch requirement to your pistol instead of your main weapon in situations where your big bertha type gun isn't ideal. The lack of significant firepower on the pistol is going to put an even higher premium on quick aiming and accuracy.
Finally, this is a SHOOTER, an FPS! I think a lot of people don't WANT to play a non-twitch class; I know I sure don't. There's a reason that there are never enough medics in TF2 pubs. It's because being a pure support type isn't fun for most people. I think it's fair to assume that because NS1 was mostly twitch based, that the fans of NS1 are going to look for gameplay similarities in NS2. For those that don't, there is commanding and to a lesser extent gorging. If those roles aren't appealing and you don't want to have to develop twitch skills, you're playing the wrong game.
Building the game entirely around competitve play is kinda silly, not everyone is a competitive player or has any interest in competitive play. Much more intelligent to build it to appeal to everyone but make provision for competitive play. I see plenty of people playing spy on normal servers, obviously it is enjoyable to many. Certainly it can't really do anything the best, for destroying buildings a demoman probably works better, or any class with an ubercharge, for killing individual players a sniper can perform well, but that only matters if your only concern is to win, if you prefer to enjoy playing then a class that fits your playstyle is more important.
You all have to stop looking at this from a perspective of NS1. Throw out your previous experiences. There is the possibility of changing anything so health, armor, movement speed, flight speed, damage, accuracy.
Its about having different roles for each alien. things they excel at and things they suck at. Making lerks unique.
Skulk-attack marines in close combat, weak health and armor lerk-attack marines in close combat, weak in health and armor umbra and gasses would be the only reason to select a lerk.
Seriously if you don't like change and like NS1 so bad, stick with it! Nobody is saying you have to change. Someone will come out with a NS1 rules mod anyways.
<!--quoteo(post=1795835:date=Aug 23 2010, 05:58 AM:name=crode)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (crode @ Aug 23 2010, 05:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1795835"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You all have to stop looking at this from a perspective of NS1. Throw out your previous experiences. There is the possibility of changing anything so health, armor, movement speed, flight speed, damage, accuracy.
Its about having different roles for each alien. things they excel at and things they suck at. Making lerks unique.
Skulk-attack marines in close combat, weak health and armor lerk-attack marines in close combat, weak in health and armor umbra and gasses would be the only reason to select a lerk.
Seriously if you don't like change and like NS1 so bad, stick with it! Nobody is saying you have to change. Someone will come out with a NS1 rules mod anyways.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah that's kinda what I'm getting at as well.
You can't play aliens without moving around all the time in NS1, <i>but this isn't NS1.</i>
Hence, change the game to allow more variety in classes, all the aliens apart from the gorge in NS1 play kinda the same, you run (or fly, or magical psychic jetpack) around all over the place and spazz out at marines to kill them. It would be a lot more fun for me if each class played quite a bit differently.
Everything is mutable in games, you can make them do whatever you want if you think about it enough.
Just because something CAN be changed, doesn't mean it SHOULD be. Putting a ranged attack on a flying alien that can't aim and fly at the same time is just pointless. Might as well give gorges bite and give leaping skulks sniper rifles. An alien's primary movement ability shouldn't be contradictory to their main attack.
I don't see how lerks aren't already unique. Flight and the gas abilities give them options that just aren't there for skulks. A lerk maintains its strategic importance throughout the entire game, while skulks are mainly just expendable biting machines after the first 5 minutes. What is the problem with having melee attacks be common on most aliens? Every marine uses a gun. Is it a good idea to make samurai marines who only have swords, but make up for it by strictly abiding by the code of bushido? (sarcasm) One of the primary things that differentiated NS from other teamplay FPS games is that there is a significant difference between the two opposing factions. Why don't they just make Kharaa marines that have organic machine guns and shotguns! That would be different from every other alien type! (sarcasm)
There are certain things that make NS recognizable as NS. Skulks ambushing around corners, resource control, marine ranged supremacy vs. extreme alien melee damage. If you get rid of certain things there's no point in even calling it NS2. I can't imagine that that is what the devs had in mind when they decided to make a sequel, otherwise they would have just made some other game. There is room for change, but certain things make more sense the way that they were.
I don't see anything compelling about your argument. You've mostly said that it CAN be changed, and you would like it, so they should change it. There's nothing objective about what you're claiming is the correct decision. What you're asking for doesn't make any sense.
What I've been saying is an objective problem with lerk spikes. A single marine, much less the multiple marines that you'll more than likely be facing, can kill a lerk with 5 pistol shots with the current alpha numbers. This is with the pistol in slow fire/accurate fire mode. 5 shots is half of a clip, it takes about 3-4 seconds to fire 5 shots. I don't see how you can seriously argue that giving lerks a ranged spike attack is a good idea with these kinds of numbers. If two marines happen to get accurate shots off, you're dead in about 2 seconds to pistol fire. This is with zero weapon upgrades. It's ridiculous to argue that it's a good idea for lerks to use a weapon that they more or less have to be stationary to fire accurately against that kind of fire power. Now, you can obviously attack my argument by saying that those are alpha numbers and that they are subject to change. That's clearly true, but marines will always have more ranged firepower than aliens. That is one of the cornerstones of NS, like aliens being better at melee range. While the individual numbers are subject to change the balance between the two sides is not. It will never be a good idea for any alien to go shot for shot with a marine at range, and lerk spikes all but force a lerk to do that. It's just not a good idea.
The reason I'm suggesting having the lerk be a stealth class dervived from its mobility is because it is the obvious solution to the problems with spikes and lerk vulnerability.
A good lerk for the build I proposed would solve both problems by firstly; not firing on the move, he should be roosting somewhere out of the way the marines can't see, there are quite a few big tall rooms in tram which would be ideal for lerks, and there are also corners in corridors and vents which can still be used.
Once the lerk has opened with a spore or spike volley, he should then leap away from the surface he's clinging to (I would suggest letting lerks who jump while roosting be launched in the direction of their aim to get away fast), and glide/fly to another surface, and thus secondly; not exposing themselves to being shot.
In a corridor then, a lerk should roost on the far wall and look along the next corridor, then when marines spot him, he should leap back into the corridor and either take position at the end of it and do the same, or if the corridor leads into a room, find a good position in the room and wait for the marines to chase him in and pick one of them off. Or both if he's in a good position or particularly good with the spikes.
In a tall room, lerks would be able to move quickly between shadows in the ceiling and hide behind bits of geometry, you could also do this in corridors with enough alcoves in them, which they should have because skulks need them as well.
Skulks current (I assume) are supposed to use ambush to get close, but once they get close they are committed, and either have to kill everything or die, they achieve this by moving quickly and staying close. Now lerks can either do the same thing with flight, or they can be a different class, with their support abilities and attacks like spores being ideally suited to a class staying out of direct conflict and finding a good spot to deploy their best powers.
Consider once flamethrowers, shotguns and miniguns appear on the field, a lerk will either need to get a massive health buff or they will be basically impossible to play as, no amount of speed will save you from a capable marine with a spread gun, unless you're going to make it as stupidly fast as fades in NS1. Skulks are I think supposed to be a bit more durable than they were in NS1, or supposedly going to be able to get a bit tougher with upgrades, and you can either do the same with lerks, again making them more like skulks, or you can make them a very different class.
I wouldn't be suggesting it if it wasn't something you could make work, also why exactly is 'because I think it would be fun' a bad reason to suggest something? The point of the game is to be fun, and 'I like the lerk as it is don't change it' is sort of why most people are objecting to changes. Suggesting something because you like it is a pretty good reason.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Because they fart all sorts of colors!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> In that case, lerk needs no spikes or bite. His farts should be enough to fall any marine. Pff-pff-pff.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I personally think that lerk lift is a terrible idea.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's unfortunate, since the reasons you stated don't seem that valid. Remember that skulks could, in NS1, always evolve into a gorge anywhere they wanted. Lerk-taxi is just a matter of convinience, teamplay, and -most importantly- good o'le fun. This is where trying to say "BAD IDEA UNBALANCED" simply doesn't work. It's fun and that's what games are about.
Anyway, it was interesting to talk with you guys, but this is old now. I'll watch a vid about lerks once the game is out, since I'm pretty sure the devs will take the easy way out in any case.
<!--quoteo(post=1795835:date=Aug 23 2010, 05:58 AM:name=crode)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (crode @ Aug 23 2010, 05:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1795835"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Skulk-attack marines in close combat, weak health and armor lerk-attack marines in close combat, weak in health and armor<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Fade: A melee attack, lots of HP. Onos: A melee attack, lots of HP.
By your level of interpretation fade and onos look pretty similar lifeforms. You have to look a bit further to see the differences.
<!--quoteo(post=1795858:date=Aug 23 2010, 09:47 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Aug 23 2010, 09:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1795858"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Fade: A melee attack, lots of HP. Onos: A melee attack, lots of HP.
By your level of interpretation fade and onos look pretty similar lifeforms. You have to look a bit further to see the differences.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The only thing that separates them in NS1 is the blink, which is quite a bit difference because it's basically the difference between being able to go anywhere and being entirely land bound.
Lerks and skulks on the other hand can both go everywhere, both use melee as their main attack (although lerks can also spore spam which kinda sucks, I'd rather that be a less spammy weapon) and both require high mobility to succeed with.
There really isn't that much between them, certainly not as much as between the other classes. In NS1 the lerk is actually unpleasantly close to both the fade and the skulk, except the skulk is free and the fade is better, so it makes it largely redundant apart from umbra which is a very useful ability. In NS2 the teleport blink will help alleviate the fade similarity, but it still needs to be separated from the skulk more and NOT in the same direction as the fade.
If you want to do away with aiming and twitch as a cornerstone of the game you play, I suggest you go play dota or WoW arena. They might suit you better. And there is character development!
Genre no, because FPS doesn't say anything about the style of FPS, operation flashpoint and quake 3 are both FPS games. Changing the game however, yes, but so is everything.
Also why would changing the game genre be mutually exclusive with new or innovating? The reasoning escapes me.
<!--quoteo(post=1795863:date=Aug 23 2010, 12:09 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Aug 23 2010, 12:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1795863"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The only thing that separates them in NS1 is the blink, which is quite a bit difference because it's basically the difference between being able to go anywhere and being entirely land bound.
Lerks and skulks on the other hand can both go everywhere, both use melee as their main attack (although lerks can also spore spam which kinda sucks, I'd rather that be a less spammy weapon) and both require high mobility to succeed with.
There really isn't that much between them, certainly not as much as between the other classes. In NS1 the lerk is actually unpleasantly close to both the fade and the skulk, except the skulk is free and the fade is better, so it makes it largely redundant apart from umbra which is a very useful ability. In NS2 the teleport blink will help alleviate the fade similarity, but it still needs to be separated from the skulk more and NOT in the same direction as the fade.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This only tells you how little you know of their roles, every alien class has their role they excel best at, these role changes throughout the game as the progresses through certain techs / control points. Skulk and fade are not there only to kill although they can do it, this is very narrow vision of how the game is played wheres competitive and experienced pubbers know how most things affect the game.
It is funny how you want less spammy kills yet you want to stay back spam some spikes, are you trolling cause you are not thinking this through.
There's a difference between 'fire gas bombs all over the place and get kills because marines can't avoid the gas' and 'shoot people repeatedly with a spike machinegun'
Lerk spikes should be no more spammy than the LMG. I would suggest either giving them a short travel time, making them rapidly deplete alien energy when in use, making them extremely accurate so you aim them, or all three.
I know what the classes do, skulks do everything until you get better lifeforms and in the late game they basically only help by suiciding and parasiting, fades are easily the best primary combat class for the aliens because their speed and power combats any marine weapon apart from sentry turrets, onoses are amazingly annoying and primarily useful against sentries because their health counters the ability of sentries to track targets. Lerks retain their support function throughout the whole game and I have no intention of suggesting it be removed, but as combat classes they are basically skulks that move like fades only without xenocide and thus largely useless later on.
The aforementioned gas spam is kinda their only offensive trick, and it's so bloody annoying that I'd really rather it be replaced with a conventional damage attack. It's stupid that the most useful offensive thing a lerk can do most of the time is sit in a vent lobbing gas bombs at people. Far better to give it a distinct and interesting combat style that isn't a crappy fade or flying skulk attack.
Like I said, the fade is getting instant teleport back which should be interesting, as it will have to misdirect its enemies rather than just moving stupidly fast, or it can use its damage and teleport to ambush people. The onos is getting its bone shield ability which means it needs to corner enemies and use its shield to get close, or again use ambush to its advantage and hide round a corner. The skulk seems to be staying basically the skulk but as it's a good general ambush class and also represents the basic lifeform and so can't really get any special abilities, I don't think it needs changing much. The lerk however can either stay a flying skulk with a really lame secondary attack and one support power, or it can be given a new role. Personally I think the role of a kiting class that keeps enemies at range and practices a less commited form of ambush than the the other classes. All the other classes, once commited, have to kill everything or die. The lerk would be an interesting departure from that, being able to run away and possibly circle round, ideal for operating behind marine lines or dealing with lone marines. An opportunist class which attacks lone targets or in the confusion of a larger fight, and which can retain its support abilities because an alien in the lerk's position would be ideally suited to deploy umbra or a similar ability.
What's the difference between having a lerk "sit in a vent lobbing gas bombs at people" and roosting on a wall shooting spikes at people? The only difference is probably the rate of fire, and the damage type.
Spikes are direct and spores and AOE. This difference in itself suggests that there'd be a lot LESS spam of spores than that of spikes. Not only that, but with the gas you can spit out a cloud and your temporary job of deterrent/damage soak was done. Then you HAVE to fly around (in order to come within attack range) and look for possible stray marines to get with your bite. But with spikes you're having to stay in your spot for longer as your gas clouds AND your primary damage is all only used from a stationary spot (because you don't have the motor skills to pull off in-flight spikes).
You're saying they should change the very aspect of the lerk you are trying to lock it down into. You're giving the class LESS variety and therefore LESS strategy.
I'd also argue that the lerk's role wasn't exactly a skulk / fades because it had a similar primary attack. It was a strategic choice to get a lerk early instead of a fade or chambers or a res node. Lerk's did a great job of isolating areas of the map by gas deterrent, which either softened up the marines, or forced the commander to waste res on med packs. Their role was more than just another melee unit, but they could adjust to that role if the situation demanded it.
so you don't rush a shotgun...you gas (and umbra if you can) wait for fade/skulk confusion and then, if you want, ambush. lerks have been support chars.
That's a useless comment WatchMaker. This sort of attitude annoys me. Charlie has stated that they're making the NS2 flight model identical to the NS1 flight model. This means that you can see it in action in any server with a lerk spikes mod enabled. It simply doesn't work in-flight.
Chris0132, firstly I'd just like to make sure you realise that skulks cannot inhabit the same space that lerks can; lerks can go anywhere in the z axis of a room whereas skulks are limited to an uncontrolled leap. In the same way, lerks cannot stick to walls and therefore ambushing is not a tactic designed for them.
The number one skill required for any lerk to succeed is spatial awareness. Line of sight abusing is all about spatial awareness. Not getting ambushed by marines is all about spatial awareness, because even with parasites up or scent of fear, the indicators lag and you need to know when the marine is going to come around the corner. You also need to know the map - to know where to go once a vent is welded or a marine has pulled the pin on a grenade - so that you can continue sporing. Spores are already in the game to add this thought based gameplay you talk of. I don't really think you quite understand the importance of spores on marine resflow, alien group tactics and for sheer irritation value.
Honestly, everything you have already said is possible as an NS1 lerk. Furthermore many competitive lerks - the ones you seem to think rely solely on reflex and twitch - adopt this approach. Also, one thing to note about gorge spit is that it is essentially equivalent to the rocket launcher in Q3 - it still requires skill. Finally, the gorge still relies on resflow for his fast growing structures; they are limited in the same way they were in NS1. You seem to think this adds strategic value to the gorge but in actual fact it just makes structures more of a panicked, unplanned reaction. In summary, I think you are uninformed.
You won't listen to any sort of compromise and won't even comment on the shotgun spike idea or logical arguments about how the lerk currently IS one of the most tactically important classes in the game. You talk of strategy and tactics but you seem to be utterly BLIND to the fact that spores are one of the greatest inclusions in an FPS game ever. You talk about being innovative but all you seem to have to offer is a method of lerk play which has been around forever.
<!--quoteo(post=1795912:date=Aug 23 2010, 05:03 PM:name=Ezekiel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ezekiel @ Aug 23 2010, 05:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1795912"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->so you don't rush a shotgun...you gas (and umbra if you can) wait for fade/skulk confusion and then, if you want, ambush. lerks have been support chars.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Since the Crags now give off umbra I dont think thats going to be the Lerks job any more, Amushing is for skulks, Lerks seem to be more of area denial, tis a good change.
Comments
Ye, but I wouldn't want it to be an innate ability, since that would rob something from gorge. Lerk-taxi does the same job after you pick up a gorge and is fun to boot. Picking up the bombs from some structure would be okay too. There could be multiple types of bombs.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A short range (no shooting to the end of a long hallway) low rate of fire (3 second recharge) high damage (3 well placed shots per kill) easily aimed spike shotgun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now that's a good idea. Something that gives a little bit range, can be used while flying, and can actually kill stuff. Lerk-taxi with a shotgun and gorge bombs. I'd love it :D
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A decent lerk is practically immune to lmg fire while in flight<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nah, in NS1 it was enough for the rines to have one guy with a good aim to annihilate all lerks. (Or one aim-bot, which you could never prove.) All it took to die was to be either too far, too close, at a turning point, or too slow. Why bother when skulks do the same job for free? Of course, there's a few peeps who liked it, but I can say confidently that for the majority of us it's just not worth it.
Because they fart all sorts of colors!
Shooting good combat lerk is act of art, and it's not about "reflexes" at all. Key is to know when to shoot, basically you have to predict a lerk movement before it actually move. Shooting dodging lerk is waste of time and bullets, but if lerk wants to do damage to you, he have to move more directly toward you and that is when you shoot. Shooting lerks is all about gamesense.
I actually have good example about this. I used train my lmg aim against Scale's combat lerk. That was 3.1, so lerk speed was faster than it is now, and Scale was one the best lerks ever. Rules were simply: one hive cele lerk vs. regular marine in topo. Because Scale didn't have any other choice than attack me I could easily predict his movement. I won almost every time. Still Scale could carry our alien’s rounds by his lerking in competitive matches. I hope this proof how much lerking is about gamesense and teamwork.
Lerk has always been supporting unit, bite only made that supporting much more interesting.
<a href="http://www.ensl.org/movies/158" target="_blank">http://www.ensl.org/movies/158</a> There few good clips about combat lerking in that movie, and how it all about teamwork and gamesense.
With the substitution of spikes for bite, I don't see lerks being able to make a dent in a group of jetpackers with good teamwork. Primarily because jetpackers can fly in any direction while lerk flight only goes in a forward direction, jetpackers with ranged weapons will have an enormous advantage over lerks using ranged spikes. A jetpacker can circle-strafe or fly backwards and target the lerk, while the lerk will basically be forced to sit on the ground if they want to be able to aim their spikes at all. Just so everyone knows what I'm talking about, jetpackers still use the keyboard to control their movement direction, which keeps their mouse input free to control their aim. Lerks however, control their flight direction with mouselook, which means that they would have to somehow use their mouse input to both aim AND control their flight. The end result of this is that lerks in flight will only be able to hit marines that they are flying at head on (obviously this is a bad idea for lerks since marines have superior defenses AND more firepower).
That said, I think the idea of shotgun spikes is a great compromise between the two positions. It prevents the potentially lame conclusion that lerks are forced to vent camp or be mostly worthless, while still keeping a ranged option available. Most importantly however, it provides lerks with a way of doing damage that is a burst rather than a continuous stream, which requires a degree of aiming that will likely be impossible to achieve with the current lerk flight model, unless the lerk is sitting on the ground.
I also want to address a couple of other points that people have made. I personally think that lerk lift is a terrible idea. In vanilla NS1, a wall walking skulk(s) could boost a gorge into MOST vents, and I think this is more than enough. The fact is that mappers need a way to have certain vents inaccessible to gorges simply for balance, and lerk lift would make that nearly impossible. Furthermore, gorges are supposed to be a building/support class with a little more toughness than a skulk early game. This is a role that they were excellent at in NS1, where a healspraying gorge or two could completely change the outcome of an early clash between lmg marines and skulks between being bullet sponges and providing healing. I imagine that this will be doubly true in NS2, where the crag will provide a buff to gorge healspray (called bacteria, see the Crag update). However, this support ability as well as the ability to build structures is offset by limited mobility, which I think is a defining part of the class. A gorge who is good at bhopping could still get away from a marine most of the time, but it was a close thing. Lerk lift will negate any risk of a gorge being stranded when the other aliens are forced to flee from a superior force of marines.
Finally, I just don't think that lerk bombs are a necessary addition. Having lerks be the type of alien that both bilebombs AND spores puts aliens at a disadvantage in siege situations. Spores are meant to be an area denial weapon, triggering a DoT on marines that stay in the spored area. It is easy to use and can generally be applied from relative safety. Bilebombs are more for AoE structure damage and they require the gorge (or lerk in this case) to be pretty close to the targeted structures. However, in a siege defense situation, you probably need both if the marines are well coordinated and have good aim. I can say from experience that in clan matches in NS1, losing your spore lerk against a siege attempt very frequently spelled defeat, as the loss of a hive is difficult to recover from. Making the lerk responsible for BOTH duties forces a lerk adopt a vulnerable position (directly above the target buildings), and it means that if marines can kill the lerk(s), then they have essentially already destroyed the hive.
You may try to counter my argument by saying that a lerk bomb would be purely supplemental, and that another alien could provide the standard bilebombing that is often required to destroy large groups of buildings. However, if this is the case, why would anyone even use a lerk bomb? Siege defense and area denial are better achieved by spores.
The bite is much more effective compared to spike on modded NS1 servers that have spike.
I still think you should get both spikes and bite. Making lerk versatile in both early and late game. Early game you can take some damage and use bite effectively. Late game you die nearly in 1 shot and would have to stay back and be supportive. Lerk early game is a must as well as late game.
You can glance and shoot some spikes and spore and then bite when up close. Then you can balance the damage out as the lerk bite shouldn't be very good as it is much smaller than the skulk and it would require all 3 weapons to be in use to be effective making a bit tougher.
You can't just make it so lerk has autoaim ofcourse and have bomber view or camera turning and all that... It would ruin the game I think. Camera viewing angles is always a problem with games. You could always make it so 1 player is a gunner and can turn and shoot spikes wherever and another player is the pilot. That would be interesting... A fun little mod though as it isn't effective. Give the alien commander that role :)
Don't make the lerk similar to a marine that has the ability to fly and do AoE damage. Bite+Spikes+Spores please. Make the lerk require skill as it always has. Rather than rewarding newbies for standing still and pushing a single mouse button.
Just like a sparrow or other bird that defends its nest. They fly at you and peck you in the head. Make a lerk like that. Bite preferably... But... The proposal of a shotgun style is interesting but that just makes it a medium range bite basically. I would prefer that over the constant shooting of spikes and spores needed to get a kill of course. And you would have to balance it versus the marine shotgun and such. But I would still like bite.
It will be spikes vs grenades on too many occasions and many lerks will be lost in this battle as grenades will be in great supply and are highly effective. A 30 res life form that takes a bit to get versus a marine that respawns and just grabs some grenades and spams them. The NS2 Devs need to consider something here.
Spikes can be made easy to hit with, and in general it's easy to track something as slow as a marine if you're stationary.
As I said, I have no doubt that if you have the reflex skills to control the aliens and you're fighting against equally good marines they can be strategic, but as I also said, there's no amount of thought that will make you win as aliens unless you are able to control the things in the first place, which is quite difficult. If you can fly and shoot accurately and the marines can't track you, strategy is irrelevant because you can win just by being hard to hit. Similarly if you can't fly properly no amount of intelligent attack angles or whatever will help you. It's always reflex first, the strategy comes only from the strategy automatically inherent in anything. You can play modern warfare 2 strategically if you want, but reflex skills will get you much further.
I want something purely thought based, like the gorge, except while gorges are kinda slow, a lerk is more mobile, between the gorge and lerk you could cover almost any situation with a thought based option.
It strikes me as a little ridiculous that you would come into a bite vs. spikes discussion and argue that an alien's entire role should be shifted to suit your tastes. Lerks are probably one of the MOST twitch skill required alien types based solely on their defensive movements before you even consider their attack types (tied with fades imo), and I think it would be a huge mistake to change that. Why bother giving an alien flight if he's supposed to be a chess player?
Plus, you're entire argument is flawed. you say you want lerks to be a "thinking" class like the gorge, but more mobile. That increased mobility inherently requires greater twitch skills than a plodding/sliding gorge does (which is not to say that gorges shouldn't require twitch skills).
Lastly, keeping spikes in their current state doesn't even make lerks a more "thinking man's" alien, it makes them a less useful overall alien. A lerk without spikes OR bite could be used in the manner which you seem to desire. The point that people are making is that if spikes require a lerk to sit somewhere with a direct line of fire to a marine and stream spikes at them, then no good lerk will ever use them. Marines will always have more firepower than aliens at range, which is as it should be. Even playing a cautious spore spamming vent lerk is difficult against great players who can aim at you with pinpoint precision and empty an entire pistol clip in half a second. There were lots of players in NS1 that game me this kind of concern, do you really think people won't achieve that level of skill in NS2?
Marines are always going to have firepower over aliens. This is part of the game, and the incongruity is part of what makes NS so unique and enjoyable to play. You seem to want to have aliens that can counter marines with pure strategy or numbers (hp, armor, etc.) instead of twitch skill. The game can NEVER be balanced this way because some people are EXTREMELY twitch skilled which, when coupled with a numbers advantage, will make them impossible, or at least overly difficult to beat. Anything that would make this kind of balancing possible would neuter the shooter type game play that is the bedrock of NS.
I would rather the lerk be given spikes, and use its flight to reach good locations, then hide out there and strike at marines when they aren't looking, when they get wise to you, move somewhere else with a simple flight model and attack again when they can't see you. Or better still, know the map and move somewhere else entirely and attack from a different direction while the marines are looking for you in your old location. I don't think spikes would be appropriate for a lerk that is constantly flying around, and I also think that lerk mobility and weapons are intrinsically linked, you can't discuss changing the weapons without discussing the movement because moving from bite to spike or vice versa has a massive impact on what sort of mobility the class needs and can use.
If you're going to say 'stop changing the game and leave' then what's the point of posting suggestions? I like parts of NS1, and dislike others, I'm going to suggest changing the parts I dislike, the lack of primariliy strategic classes for the aliens is one of the things I dislike, the marines already seem to be getting things which cater to that playstyle with things like flamethrowers and miniguns, both of which obviously cannot be twitch based, and I would like to see similar options for the aliens. The gorge is already getting a good expansion of its strategic role with the fast-growing hydras and mobility skills, and changing the lerk to cover all the roles the gorge doesn't would be ideal.
Most of the balance of NS2 comes from making it entirely based on player skill, you win or lose based on how you play because everything is high damage, you can do a lot of damage if you're good and you can do no damage if you aren't, making the actual DPS of weapons less important, because they're all more or less above the point where the exact numbers matter.
What I'm suggesting is entirely based on that idea, it simply uses a <i>different</i> skill set. Twitch is not the only skillset available, to use the spy example again, I suck at it, because I don't really like playing it but I have played it enough to know that it is almost entirely about picking your targets and knowing where to escape to and how to misdirect your enemy. It depends massively on your spatial awareness skill rather than your ablity to control your mouse and character perfectly. Again if you want an example of the difference between twitch and strategy, take scout and spy in TF2, both are high mobility classes, but one emphasises fast reflexes and one fast thought.
Also yes starcraft is stupidly twitch based, and a pretty terrible RTS. For RTS I would play total war or supreme commander.
You talk about a lerk using knowledge of the map to attack from various directions as if this isn't countered by a marine that knows the maps, and which spots are vulnerable from which direction. Good players will be on their guard accordingly. Furthermore, I don't know if you remember the SOUNDS that a lerk made in NS1, but they were probably the noisiest alien out there. Lots of wing flapping and random squawks. Not exactly cut out to be a stealth sniper.
Finally, if you look at competitive TF2, you'll realize that your spy analogy was a good one, but it isn't helpful to your argument. Yes, spies use cloaking to get around, but are vulnerable once revealed. They are also almost NEVER used in competitive play. The standard set up is 2 soldiers, 2 scouts, a demoman, and a medic right? Very few teams vary from this tried and true formula. If the lerk is made into what you advocate, it might be the same way with lerks in NS. It turns a unique and genuinely fun alien type into a spore b!tch, who sits, barely mobile, and does the same inane task over and over.
Also, it's laughable to suggest that any alternative marine weapon is going to reduce the amount of twitch required to play them. Holding a flamethrower or minigun might appear to make twitch reactions less valuable overall, but really all it does is shift the twitch requirement to your pistol instead of your main weapon in situations where your big bertha type gun isn't ideal. The lack of significant firepower on the pistol is going to put an even higher premium on quick aiming and accuracy.
Finally, this is a SHOOTER, an FPS! I think a lot of people don't WANT to play a non-twitch class; I know I sure don't. There's a reason that there are never enough medics in TF2 pubs. It's because being a pure support type isn't fun for most people. I think it's fair to assume that because NS1 was mostly twitch based, that the fans of NS1 are going to look for gameplay similarities in NS2. For those that don't, there is commanding and to a lesser extent gorging. If those roles aren't appealing and you don't want to have to develop twitch skills, you're playing the wrong game.
Its about having different roles for each alien. things they excel at and things they suck at. Making lerks unique.
Skulk-attack marines in close combat, weak health and armor
lerk-attack marines in close combat, weak in health and armor
umbra and gasses would be the only reason to select a lerk.
Seriously if you don't like change and like NS1 so bad, stick with it! Nobody is saying you have to change. Someone will come out with a NS1 rules mod anyways.
Its about having different roles for each alien. things they excel at and things they suck at. Making lerks unique.
Skulk-attack marines in close combat, weak health and armor
lerk-attack marines in close combat, weak in health and armor
umbra and gasses would be the only reason to select a lerk.
Seriously if you don't like change and like NS1 so bad, stick with it! Nobody is saying you have to change. Someone will come out with a NS1 rules mod anyways.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah that's kinda what I'm getting at as well.
You can't play aliens without moving around all the time in NS1, <i>but this isn't NS1.</i>
Hence, change the game to allow more variety in classes, all the aliens apart from the gorge in NS1 play kinda the same, you run (or fly, or magical psychic jetpack) around all over the place and spazz out at marines to kill them. It would be a lot more fun for me if each class played quite a bit differently.
Everything is mutable in games, you can make them do whatever you want if you think about it enough.
I don't see how lerks aren't already unique. Flight and the gas abilities give them options that just aren't there for skulks. A lerk maintains its strategic importance throughout the entire game, while skulks are mainly just expendable biting machines after the first 5 minutes. What is the problem with having melee attacks be common on most aliens? Every marine uses a gun. Is it a good idea to make samurai marines who only have swords, but make up for it by strictly abiding by the code of bushido? (sarcasm) One of the primary things that differentiated NS from other teamplay FPS games is that there is a significant difference between the two opposing factions. Why don't they just make Kharaa marines that have organic machine guns and shotguns! That would be different from every other alien type! (sarcasm)
There are certain things that make NS recognizable as NS. Skulks ambushing around corners, resource control, marine ranged supremacy vs. extreme alien melee damage. If you get rid of certain things there's no point in even calling it NS2. I can't imagine that that is what the devs had in mind when they decided to make a sequel, otherwise they would have just made some other game. There is room for change, but certain things make more sense the way that they were.
I don't see anything compelling about your argument. You've mostly said that it CAN be changed, and you would like it, so they should change it. There's nothing objective about what you're claiming is the correct decision. What you're asking for doesn't make any sense.
What I've been saying is an objective problem with lerk spikes. A single marine, much less the multiple marines that you'll more than likely be facing, can kill a lerk with 5 pistol shots with the current alpha numbers. This is with the pistol in slow fire/accurate fire mode. 5 shots is half of a clip, it takes about 3-4 seconds to fire 5 shots. I don't see how you can seriously argue that giving lerks a ranged spike attack is a good idea with these kinds of numbers. If two marines happen to get accurate shots off, you're dead in about 2 seconds to pistol fire. This is with zero weapon upgrades. It's ridiculous to argue that it's a good idea for lerks to use a weapon that they more or less have to be stationary to fire accurately against that kind of fire power. Now, you can obviously attack my argument by saying that those are alpha numbers and that they are subject to change. That's clearly true, but marines will always have more ranged firepower than aliens. That is one of the cornerstones of NS, like aliens being better at melee range. While the individual numbers are subject to change the balance between the two sides is not. It will never be a good idea for any alien to go shot for shot with a marine at range, and lerk spikes all but force a lerk to do that. It's just not a good idea.
A good lerk for the build I proposed would solve both problems by firstly; not firing on the move, he should be roosting somewhere out of the way the marines can't see, there are quite a few big tall rooms in tram which would be ideal for lerks, and there are also corners in corridors and vents which can still be used.
Once the lerk has opened with a spore or spike volley, he should then leap away from the surface he's clinging to (I would suggest letting lerks who jump while roosting be launched in the direction of their aim to get away fast), and glide/fly to another surface, and thus secondly; not exposing themselves to being shot.
In a corridor then, a lerk should roost on the far wall and look along the next corridor, then when marines spot him, he should leap back into the corridor and either take position at the end of it and do the same, or if the corridor leads into a room, find a good position in the room and wait for the marines to chase him in and pick one of them off. Or both if he's in a good position or particularly good with the spikes.
In a tall room, lerks would be able to move quickly between shadows in the ceiling and hide behind bits of geometry, you could also do this in corridors with enough alcoves in them, which they should have because skulks need them as well.
Skulks current (I assume) are supposed to use ambush to get close, but once they get close they are committed, and either have to kill everything or die, they achieve this by moving quickly and staying close. Now lerks can either do the same thing with flight, or they can be a different class, with their support abilities and attacks like spores being ideally suited to a class staying out of direct conflict and finding a good spot to deploy their best powers.
Consider once flamethrowers, shotguns and miniguns appear on the field, a lerk will either need to get a massive health buff or they will be basically impossible to play as, no amount of speed will save you from a capable marine with a spread gun, unless you're going to make it as stupidly fast as fades in NS1. Skulks are I think supposed to be a bit more durable than they were in NS1, or supposedly going to be able to get a bit tougher with upgrades, and you can either do the same with lerks, again making them more like skulks, or you can make them a very different class.
I wouldn't be suggesting it if it wasn't something you could make work, also why exactly is 'because I think it would be fun' a bad reason to suggest something? The point of the game is to be fun, and 'I like the lerk as it is don't change it' is sort of why most people are objecting to changes. Suggesting something because you like it is a pretty good reason.
In that case, lerk needs no spikes or bite. His farts should be enough to fall any marine. Pff-pff-pff.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I personally think that lerk lift is a terrible idea.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's unfortunate, since the reasons you stated don't seem that valid. Remember that skulks could, in NS1, always evolve into a gorge anywhere they wanted. Lerk-taxi is just a matter of convinience, teamplay, and -most importantly- good o'le fun. This is where trying to say "BAD IDEA UNBALANCED" simply doesn't work. It's fun and that's what games are about.
Anyway, it was interesting to talk with you guys, but this is old now. I'll watch a vid about lerks once the game is out, since I'm pretty sure the devs will take the easy way out in any case.
lerk-attack marines in close combat, weak in health and armor<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fade: A melee attack, lots of HP.
Onos: A melee attack, lots of HP.
By your level of interpretation fade and onos look pretty similar lifeforms. You have to look a bit further to see the differences.
Onos: A melee attack, lots of HP.
By your level of interpretation fade and onos look pretty similar lifeforms. You have to look a bit further to see the differences.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The only thing that separates them in NS1 is the blink, which is quite a bit difference because it's basically the difference between being able to go anywhere and being entirely land bound.
Lerks and skulks on the other hand can both go everywhere, both use melee as their main attack (although lerks can also spore spam which kinda sucks, I'd rather that be a less spammy weapon) and both require high mobility to succeed with.
There really isn't that much between them, certainly not as much as between the other classes. In NS1 the lerk is actually unpleasantly close to both the fade and the skulk, except the skulk is free and the fade is better, so it makes it largely redundant apart from umbra which is a very useful ability. In NS2 the teleport blink will help alleviate the fade similarity, but it still needs to be separated from the skulk more and NOT in the same direction as the fade.
But that might be innovative and original, wouldn't want that or anything.
[Edit] Not that we can't discuss it, I mean it's a worthy topic. But if we do that I suggest we call it for what it is and possibly make a new topic.
Also why would changing the game genre be mutually exclusive with new or innovating? The reasoning escapes me.
Lerks and skulks on the other hand can both go everywhere, both use melee as their main attack (although lerks can also spore spam which kinda sucks, I'd rather that be a less spammy weapon) and both require high mobility to succeed with.
There really isn't that much between them, certainly not as much as between the other classes. In NS1 the lerk is actually unpleasantly close to both the fade and the skulk, except the skulk is free and the fade is better, so it makes it largely redundant apart from umbra which is a very useful ability. In NS2 the teleport blink will help alleviate the fade similarity, but it still needs to be separated from the skulk more and NOT in the same direction as the fade.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This only tells you how little you know of their roles, every alien class has their role they excel best at, these role changes throughout the game as the progresses through certain techs / control points. Skulk and fade are not there only to kill although they can do it, this is very narrow vision of how the game is played wheres competitive and experienced pubbers know how most things affect the game.
It is funny how you want less spammy kills yet you want to stay back spam some spikes, are you trolling cause you are not thinking this through.
Lerk spikes should be no more spammy than the LMG. I would suggest either giving them a short travel time, making them rapidly deplete alien energy when in use, making them extremely accurate so you aim them, or all three.
I know what the classes do, skulks do everything until you get better lifeforms and in the late game they basically only help by suiciding and parasiting, fades are easily the best primary combat class for the aliens because their speed and power combats any marine weapon apart from sentry turrets, onoses are amazingly annoying and primarily useful against sentries because their health counters the ability of sentries to track targets. Lerks retain their support function throughout the whole game and I have no intention of suggesting it be removed, but as combat classes they are basically skulks that move like fades only without xenocide and thus largely useless later on.
The aforementioned gas spam is kinda their only offensive trick, and it's so bloody annoying that I'd really rather it be replaced with a conventional damage attack. It's stupid that the most useful offensive thing a lerk can do most of the time is sit in a vent lobbing gas bombs at people. Far better to give it a distinct and interesting combat style that isn't a crappy fade or flying skulk attack.
Like I said, the fade is getting instant teleport back which should be interesting, as it will have to misdirect its enemies rather than just moving stupidly fast, or it can use its damage and teleport to ambush people. The onos is getting its bone shield ability which means it needs to corner enemies and use its shield to get close, or again use ambush to its advantage and hide round a corner. The skulk seems to be staying basically the skulk but as it's a good general ambush class and also represents the basic lifeform and so can't really get any special abilities, I don't think it needs changing much. The lerk however can either stay a flying skulk with a really lame secondary attack and one support power, or it can be given a new role. Personally I think the role of a kiting class that keeps enemies at range and practices a less commited form of ambush than the the other classes. All the other classes, once commited, have to kill everything or die. The lerk would be an interesting departure from that, being able to run away and possibly circle round, ideal for operating behind marine lines or dealing with lone marines. An opportunist class which attacks lone targets or in the confusion of a larger fight, and which can retain its support abilities because an alien in the lerk's position would be ideally suited to deploy umbra or a similar ability.
Spikes are direct and spores and AOE. This difference in itself suggests that there'd be a lot LESS spam of spores than that of spikes. Not only that, but with the gas you can spit out a cloud and your temporary job of deterrent/damage soak was done. Then you HAVE to fly around (in order to come within attack range) and look for possible stray marines to get with your bite. But with spikes you're having to stay in your spot for longer as your gas clouds AND your primary damage is all only used from a stationary spot (because you don't have the motor skills to pull off in-flight spikes).
You're saying they should change the very aspect of the lerk you are trying to lock it down into. You're giving the class LESS variety and therefore LESS strategy.
I'd also argue that the lerk's role wasn't exactly a skulk / fades because it had a similar primary attack. It was a strategic choice to get a lerk early instead of a fade or chambers or a res node. Lerk's did a great job of isolating areas of the map by gas deterrent, which either softened up the marines, or forced the commander to waste res on med packs. Their role was more than just another melee unit, but they could adjust to that role if the situation demanded it.
Chris0132, firstly I'd just like to make sure you realise that skulks cannot inhabit the same space that lerks can; lerks can go anywhere in the z axis of a room whereas skulks are limited to an uncontrolled leap. In the same way, lerks cannot stick to walls and therefore ambushing is not a tactic designed for them.
The number one skill required for any lerk to succeed is spatial awareness. Line of sight abusing is all about spatial awareness. Not getting ambushed by marines is all about spatial awareness, because even with parasites up or scent of fear, the indicators lag and you need to know when the marine is going to come around the corner. You also need to know the map - to know where to go once a vent is welded or a marine has pulled the pin on a grenade - so that you can continue sporing. Spores are already in the game to add this thought based gameplay you talk of. I don't really think you quite understand the importance of spores on marine resflow, alien group tactics and for sheer irritation value.
Honestly, everything you have already said is possible as an NS1 lerk. Furthermore many competitive lerks - the ones you seem to think rely solely on reflex and twitch - adopt this approach. Also, one thing to note about gorge spit is that it is essentially equivalent to the rocket launcher in Q3 - it still requires skill. Finally, the gorge still relies on resflow for his fast growing structures; they are limited in the same way they were in NS1. You seem to think this adds strategic value to the gorge but in actual fact it just makes structures more of a panicked, unplanned reaction. In summary, I think you are uninformed.
You won't listen to any sort of compromise and won't even comment on the shotgun spike idea or logical arguments about how the lerk currently IS one of the most tactically important classes in the game. You talk of strategy and tactics but you seem to be utterly BLIND to the fact that spores are one of the greatest inclusions in an FPS game ever. You talk about being innovative but all you seem to have to offer is a method of lerk play which has been around forever.
Since the Crags now give off umbra I dont think thats going to be the Lerks job any more, Amushing is for skulks, Lerks seem to be more of area denial, tis a good change.