I think adding both... The long range shooting is no different to using a sniper rifle in other various games, cod/bf/cs... At least if you add biting then the player can decided to get in on the action, or incase he/she happens to be close range.
Regards, Matt.
EDIT: yourbonesakin has a great point! I concur wholly. Maybe instead of bite, add a close range attribute (incase of being too close to enemies) like using your knife in BF Bad Company 2. Maybe regarding the wings of the Lerk?
<!--quoteo(post=1795100:date=Aug 19 2010, 07:56 AM:name=yourbonesakin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yourbonesakin @ Aug 19 2010, 07:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1795100"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->wall of text
A short range (no shooting to the end of a long hallway) low rate of fire (3 second recharge) high damage (3 well placed shots per kill) easily aimed spike shotgun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> A decent lerk is practically immune to lmg fire while in flight chances in actually hitting it unless it attacks you with a wrong timing. I would say in early game lerk is a soft counter to the marines in the field, bite makes this possible. I can see why shooting (long range) sounds appealing but after six months (exaggerated) do still love few easy kills you get with it? I doubt it.
I agree that very close ranged shotgun type spike might work and sniper should be removed.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1795117:date=Aug 19 2010, 09:37 AM:name=mattoX)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mattoX @ Aug 19 2010, 09:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1795117"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maybe instead of bite, add a close range attribute (incase of being too close to enemies) like using your knife in BF Bad Company 2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> As long as it isn't instant kill like the BFBC2 knoife
You say that flying at a marine as lerk at a low level (im assuming a low level of skill) is a bad idea. While true, lets looks at that same player as a skulk, what will they do as skulk.. run straight at a marine while biting, getting 20 bulleted? Giving that same player a shotgun type spike attack, they are just going to fly straight in like with bite, your encouraging that very behavior you said is bad... Giving them a different close range skill fixes nothing. Lerk flight will always be a more advanced mechanic, and I think that is a good thing. I think the best way to ease learning the lerk is to have both spike and bite, and remove the sniper spike. Leave spikes as a medium range, with similar damage to spores, however not much of an energy drain. Basically bite could be the alt fire. Giving newer players a primary ranged skill will help them start out, they can camp vents and the shadows more, and won’t die as quickly. They may not be the most useful lerk, but it wouldn’t frustrate them. It would still give advanced players the ability to bite down marines, and be more aggressive with the lerk.
<!--quoteo(post=1795100:date=Aug 19 2010, 12:56 AM:name=yourbonesakin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yourbonesakin @ Aug 19 2010, 12:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1795100"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well, the entire point of having a flying alien is that it flies around a lot. Really. That's what they do. So if we give flying aliens a long range weapon with perfect accuracy, flying aliens not only <i>can</i> stay put on the ground (not flying) but are <i>encouraged</i> to do so. So that idea is straight up terrible.
Unless the flying model is super smooth (a la jetpacks), shooting with any accuracy will be completely and utterly impossible. Lots of turbulence will be bad if we want dofighting lerks, basically. So the discontinuous flapping MUST go if we want lerks firing and shooting at the exact same time. It has to be smooth as butter so shooting and flying simultaneously can be encouraged.
A short range (no shooting to the end of a long hallway) low rate of fire (3 second recharge) high damage (3 well placed shots per kill) easily aimed spike shotgun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1 but keep the zoomed in one shot spike sniper rifle, have it drain all of your energy so you can't snipe and then immediately escape to cover. it should encourage setting up the sniper shot.
<!--quoteo(post=1795151:date=Aug 19 2010, 11:57 AM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Aug 19 2010, 11:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1795151"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I do hope we get shirtguns in NS2 though!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah the obvious solution is to make the spikes non-viable as a sniping weapon. Give it a rapid-fire spike with large cone of fire, or burst-fire 'shotgun' type effect. The closer you are, the more spikes will hit - the more damage you deal. Simple and intuitive.
<!--quoteo(post=1795144:date=Aug 19 2010, 10:19 AM:name=Mkk_Bitestuff)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mkk_Bitestuff @ Aug 19 2010, 10:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1795144"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You say that flying at a marine as lerk at a low level (im assuming a low level of skill) is a bad idea. While true, lets looks at that same player as a skulk, what will they do as skulk.. run straight at a marine while biting, getting 20 bulleted? Giving that same player a shotgun type spike attack, they are just going to fly straight in like with bite, your encouraging that very behavior you said is bad... Giving them a different close range skill fixes nothing. Lerk flight will always be a more advanced mechanic, and I think that is a good thing. I think the best way to ease learning the lerk is to have both spike and bite, and remove the sniper spike. Leave spikes as a medium range, with similar damage to spores, however not much of an energy drain. Basically bite could be the alt fire. Giving newer players a primary ranged skill will help them start out, they can camp vents and the shadows more, and won’t die as quickly. They may not be the most useful lerk, but it wouldn’t frustrate them. It would still give advanced players the ability to bite down marines, and be more aggressive with the lerk.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Nub lerks still have gas, which is really powerful.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1795100:date=Aug 19 2010, 05:56 AM:name=yourbonesakin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yourbonesakin @ Aug 19 2010, 05:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1795100"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A short range (no shooting to the end of a long hallway) low rate of fire (3 second recharge) high damage (3 well placed shots per kill) easily aimed spike shotgun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This has been suggested many times before in earlier threads, with significant opposition from the people who want longer range spikes back. Maybe people will listen this time?
Your suggestion has a fatal flaw however, which also undermines the rest of your reasoning. A "low rate of fire (3 second recharge) high damage (3 well placed shots per kill)" weapon is entirely ineffectual against medpacks. Basically, if the commander meds (and he will if he isn't terrible) it will be impossible for you to frag as Lerk, because the marine heals between every shot. As long as the marines can use medpacks, low ROF primary weapons won't be viable unless they one hit kill (which would be even worse than an ineffectual weapon).
In NS the Lerk bite was high damage with a moderate-high ROF. The Lerk then had a choice:
A. Risk taking a lot of damage by trying to hit consecutive bites that did damage faster than the commander could drop meds B. Dodge between bites, reducing the risk of taking damage greatly but also giving the commander ample opportunity to drop meds between attacks.
The better the player got at Lerking, the better he would also get at combining A and B. Making this work similarly with close range spikes would require some tweaking, the damage output of each hit would probably have to be lowered a bit. Personally I think shotgun spikes is a great option, but a 3 second recharge shotgun spike definitely isn't.
Another problem is that, as you accurately identified, this model is skill demanding, or at least it has a very steep initial learning curve. Unfortunately I don't think it's possible to do much about this. A melee range flying creature playing against long range high damage hitscan weapons is always going to have a steep initial learning curve. If the learning curve/skill demand is a big problem for you, a ranged lerk is probably the only viable option.
<!--quoteo(post=1795120:date=Aug 19 2010, 06:08 PM:name=TrC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrC @ Aug 19 2010, 06:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1795120"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A decent lerk is practically immune to lmg fire while in flight chances in actually hitting it unless it attacks you with a wrong timing. I would say in early game lerk is a soft counter to the marines in the field, bite makes this possible.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As a self-described competitive player, your idea of a "decent" lerk is probably quite a long way above the average player. No-one's suggesting NS2 should be balanced around nublets, or that skilled players shouldn't have an advantage, but having your primary attack be basically ineffectual unless you are highly skilled isn't a good idea. That was pointed out in the "wall of text".
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=Mkk_Bitestuff)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mkk_Bitestuff)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You say that flying at a marine as lerk at a low level (im assuming a low level of skill) is a bad idea. While true, lets looks at that same player as a skulk, what will they do as skulk.. run straight at a marine while biting, getting 20 bulleted? Giving that same player a shotgun type spike attack, they are just going to fly straight in like with bite, your encouraging that very behavior you said is bad... Giving them a different close range skill fixes nothing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The suggested spike shotgun is a medium range weapon. The whole point is for lerk's primary attack to be effective without them having to close to melee range. Strafe flapping would probably work well with this kind of weapon.
...and I'm pretty sure low level players learn pretty early on that to be effective as a skulk ambushing is the way to go, not suicide charges.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited August 2010
<!--quoteo(post=1795186:date=Aug 19 2010, 08:02 PM:name=Ezekiel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ezekiel @ Aug 19 2010, 08:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1795186"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->like fanatic said, shotty spikes will just be negated by medspam.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Which does cost resources. So it <b>might</b> not end in kills, but it sure would put a strain their resources.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited August 2010
<!--quoteo(post=1795186:date=Aug 19 2010, 07:02 PM:name=Ezekiel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ezekiel @ Aug 19 2010, 07:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1795186"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->like fanatic said, shotty spikes will just be negated by medspam.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No, that isn't what I said at all. Shotgun spikes is a great idea, but it can't be slow ROF, at least not slow ROF defined as a 3 second recharge time. It would have to fire roughly as fast as the NS Lerk bite.
This would be easy to work into the "lore" as well. The Lerk can either fire a single powerful big spike or several smaller spikes at once. Makes sense!
If the sniper spikes were tweaked to be more like the primary fire spikes currently in NS2 (give them a falling trajectory that's slightly longer than the current NS2 spikes, with high damage and slow ROF) shotgun spike and sniper spike would work perfectly in tandem. Sniper spikes could be easily countered by medpacks, giving Lerks incentive to do higher risk shotgun spike attacks instead of just sitting in a vent all game. Sniper spikes would still be useful for annoying marines, picking off wounded marines or helping skulks take marines down to one bite health during attacks.
I personally would prefer having a choice to upgrade to spikes or bite, and having the same choice for other upgrades on aliens as well. Having a choice between web and babblers is another example. Bear in mind keep the choices balanced towards having one that is for offense, and the other more defense oriented. In ns1 I would favor using a lerk but wanted to play more defensively but found it difficult since I was not the greatest player in the world. Having a choice that lets me choose how I want to play each alien be it more defense or offense minded would make the game more interesting imo tactially as well.
<!--quoteo(post=1795191:date=Aug 19 2010, 07:32 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Aug 19 2010, 07:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1795191"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No, that isn't what I said at all. Shotgun spikes is a great idea, but it can't be slow ROF, at least not slow ROF defined as a 3 second recharge time. It would have to fire roughly as fast as the NS Lerk bite.
This would be easy to work into the "lore" as well. The Lerk can either fire a single powerful big spike or several smaller spikes at once. Makes sense!
If the sniper spikes were tweaked to be more like the primary fire spikes currently in NS2 (give them a falling trajectory that's slightly longer than the current NS2 spikes, with high damage and slow ROF) shotgun spike and sniper spike would work perfectly in tandem. Sniper spikes could be easily countered by medpacks, giving Lerks incentive to do higher risk shotgun spike attacks instead of just sitting in a vent all game. Sniper spikes would still be useful for annoying marines, picking off wounded marines or helping skulks take marines down to one bite health during attacks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> excuse me for leaving out rof, thought it was kinda implied in the post that you replied to regarding medspam.
<!--quoteo(post=1795086:date=Aug 19 2010, 03:44 AM:name=Jiriki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jiriki @ Aug 19 2010, 03:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1795086"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Flying skulks. Seriously. I've played as lerk in high-level matches and I can tell you that aerobatics of lerking are completely different from that of a skulk.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, because a Skulk doesn't have wings...
Each lifeform needs to be unique to offer a wider range of abilities, and having 2 lifeforms performing the same move means an ability will get the chop. With a Skulk, Fade, Onos and battle Gorge, there's plenty of offense options, and the Lerk seems a more interesting lifeform staying with support/defense. Besides, the new Lerk design has a very small beak, hardly going to be a bother for these hardened marines...
<!--quoteo(post=1795201:date=Aug 19 2010, 10:57 PM:name=echs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (echs @ Aug 19 2010, 10:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1795201"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes, because a Skulk doesn't have wings...
Each lifeform needs to be unique to offer a wider range of abilities, and having 2 lifeforms performing the same move means an ability will get the chop. With a Skulk, Fade, Onos and battle Gorge, there's plenty of offense options, and the Lerk seems a more interesting lifeform staying with support/defense. Besides, the new Lerk design has a very small beak, hardly going to be a bother for these hardened marines...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Each lifeform needs to be unique. Yes exactly. If you give lerks long-range spikes like they do now, they are just marines with wings. If they can shoot from distance, they don't have to use their wings at all other than moving most of the time. Thus they just fly to move around, how boring. Like I said, bite makes it <i>more unique</i> because it has to close-up and do aerobatics instead of sniping from distance and flying away when marines come close.
And its not same moves, the aerobatics of lerk are completely <i>different</i> from that of a skulk, lerks are not jetpacks just because they both can fly. The have both different flying techniques. Most aliens have melee attacks. Onos gore, skulk bite, lerk bite, fade swipe are unique even though they're all short-range melee attacks. What's going in the viewmodel is just meaningless for the gameplay.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Lerk seems a more interesting lifeform staying with support/defense<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It has always been like that in NS1.
Perhaps this could be solved by using the auto-bite that was scrapped from the skulk for a flying lerk beak swipe. I could see it having a long recharge and being very direct for moderate damage. This would be a satisfying melee attack that can only be triggered at a certain velocity. The damage would be from the speed of the lerk and not the strength of the beak/bite.
It could provide a nice finishing move or hit-n-run strike as another option to strafing with spikes (rapid fire or semi-auto shotgun). It's just an idea that flew through my head.
<!--quoteo(post=1795181:date=Aug 19 2010, 12:36 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Aug 19 2010, 12:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1795181"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This has been suggested many times before in earlier threads, with significant opposition from the people who want longer range spikes back. Maybe people will listen this time?
Your suggestion has a fatal flaw however, which also undermines the rest of your reasoning. A "low rate of fire (3 second recharge) high damage (3 well placed shots per kill)" weapon is entirely ineffectual against medpacks. Basically, if the commander meds (and he will if he isn't terrible) it will be impossible for you to frag as Lerk, because the marine heals between every shot. As long as the marines can use medpacks, low ROF primary weapons won't be viable unless they one hit kill (which would be even worse than an ineffectual weapon).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're totally right about the med spam. So a 2 shot kill weapon (that can't kill a marine with no armor) would probably be best. If it can kill a marine with 100 hp and zero armor, then med spam is useless. We want med spam to still be useful in the early game.
90 damage would still be a two-shot kill. If one adds spores to a spike shotgun shot, one can kill even with medspam, but that takes skill. Some added skill should increase combat effectiveness so there you go.
Surely we could just give the shotgun spikes a high rate of fire but a high adrenaline usage to balance... that's the point of the alien energy bar isn't it?
It depends on the damage of a "shotgun attack" but after all it's somewhat like a bite - Get as close as possible to deal the biggest amount of damage. And the argument a lerk shouldn't be a skulk with wings is so bad. The lerk in ns1 was unique and awesome like he was. All changes to this class will just make it worse. Additions yes, a total conversion... please no :|
<!--quoteo(post=1795440:date=Aug 20 2010, 09:50 AM:name=Schreq)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Schreq @ Aug 20 2010, 09:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1795440"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It depends on the damage of a "shotgun attack" but after all it's somewhat like a bite - Get as close as possible to deal the biggest amount of damage. And the argument a lerk shouldn't be a skulk with wings is so bad. The lerk in ns1 was unique and awesome like he was. All changes to this class will just make it worse. Additions yes, a total conversion... please no :|<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ah, so everything in NS1 was absolutely perfect and only additions should be made to the original game otherwise a Video Game Travesty of Grand Proportions will occur?
It sounds like instead of admitting the lerk was not perfect, you are falling back to making <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro--><b><!--sizeo:2--><span style="font-size:10pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Predictions Of Ruin<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> so you don't have to think and perhaps realize that A) You are wrong and B) the game you love had its flaws.
It's much better to rationally think about things and figure out if they are wrong or if they do have flaws. That way you can actually fix problems instead of clinging to safety blanket belief systems. Unless all you care about is <i>feeling right</i> instead of <i>being right</i>. Then nothing will convince you.
Also a shotgun attack can be a middle range attack. The easiest way to do this is limit how many bullets can hit a single target. So a shotgun doesn't have to encourage melee range fighting if we're creative. Make the spread dense and wide enough but have a maximum damage less than the number of bullets fired can do if they all hit, so firing it closer to a marine won't deal any more damage after a certain point.
That way its A) easy to fire, B) encourages shooting from much more than melee range, and C) deals consistent damage. All good things in my book.
<!--quoteo(post=1795484:date=Aug 20 2010, 07:27 PM:name=yourbonesakin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yourbonesakin @ Aug 20 2010, 07:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1795484"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ah, so everything in NS1 was absolutely perfect and only additions should be made to the original game otherwise a Video Game Travesty of Grand Proportions will occur?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->how about you spent a bit more time in reading and understanding someones post? thanks.
<!--quoteo(post=1795484:date=Aug 20 2010, 07:27 PM:name=yourbonesakin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yourbonesakin @ Aug 20 2010, 07:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1795484"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It sounds like instead of admitting the lerk was not perfect, you are falling back to making <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro--><b><!--sizeo:2--><span style="font-size:10pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Predictions Of Ruin<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> so you don't have to think and perhaps realize that A) You are wrong and B) the game you love had its flaws.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> See first paragraph. And yeah, of course I should admit it has flaws. Especially because A) <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro--><b><!--sizeo:2--><span style="font-size:10pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->YOU<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> say it has flaws and B) if you say it has flaws, it's a fact. Yeah right :D
<!--quoteo(post=1795484:date=Aug 20 2010, 07:27 PM:name=yourbonesakin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yourbonesakin @ Aug 20 2010, 07:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1795484"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's much better to rationally think about things and figure out if they are wrong or if they do have flaws. That way you can actually fix problems instead of clinging to safety blanket belief systems. Unless all you care about is <i>feeling right</i> instead of <i>being right</i>. Then nothing will convince you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, in my opinion the ns1 lerk was perfect. I guess I even thought about it, oh wonder. I don't have to explain myself when I say I liked everything on it how it is in ns1. But since you say it had flaws, you better explain what it is. You are mixing something up here. Opinions != facts. Like I said before, just because you think something has flaws, it doesn't make it a fact.
And again I say don't completly change something which was awesome already. Just enhance it.
The 'shotgun' spikes attack would need a rof to match the current bite rof, dealing roughly the same damage at point blank. The lerk will already have gas and the standard spikes attack for harrassing/wasting marines res, it doesnt need another attack for the same thing. This is the lerks primary dps attack, he should be able to kill with it relatively easily should he get that close.
<!--quoteo(post=1795504:date=Aug 20 2010, 02:47 PM:name=Schreq)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Schreq @ Aug 20 2010, 02:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1795504"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->yeah, let's make it an argument about linguistics.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I am working with the words you typed; the only thing I can ever do. You can certainly change what you're saying, but you cannot ever fault me for attempting to derive meaning from the words you use to communicate and craft a response based on those words.
Perhaps you have misused the term "perfect". That's certainly understandable. Maybe you were just overstating how good you think the NS1 lerk is.
Perhaps my response was applied in the wrong circumstance, but it is still absolutely true. Something perfect cannot be enhanced in any manner ever.
But I think you're admitting you have two beliefs contradicting each other.
<!--quoteo(post=1795506:date=Aug 20 2010, 02:50 PM:name=Mkk_Bitestuff)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mkk_Bitestuff @ Aug 20 2010, 02:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1795506"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The 'shotgun' spikes attack would need a rof to match the current bite rof, dealing roughly the same damage at point blank. The lerk will already have gas and the standard spikes attack for harrassing/wasting marines res, it doesnt need another attack for the same thing. This is the lerks primary dps attack, he should be able to kill with it relatively easily should he get that close.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If shooting while flying was possible, then a high rate of fire weapon would be awesome. I just don't think Unknown Worlds will make a flying model which is A) Smooth enough and B) Is independent of mouse movement. Basically, if you can only fly forward and you must face a marine to shoot and flying reduces accuracy, a high rate of fire weapon heavily discourages flying in combat. Which is Bad Game Design, because flying aliens should be flying while in combat.
We want flying aliens to use flying in combat because flying should be used for something more than transptoration because flying does not grant access to any areas wallwalking skulks can't already access. And if speed is flight's only special property, something is terribly wrong.
Even then, shooting while flying is difficult. Having to constantly face the marine you are fighting to pepper him with high rate of fire spikes while flying around is too many simultaneous actions. Only very talented players can pull it off. Hell, even when there aren't cramped hallways and low ceilings, players in space flight simulators can't shoot and fly at the same time unless they have a joystick. NS1 lerks trying to pull that off just bump into walls or snag on ceilings like mentally handicapped pigeons because they can't ###### see where they are going and they can't ###### focus on flying.
So a high rate of fire weapon is stupid for a player class which has a very complex movement system. Shooting should be used in conjunction with flying, but not at the same time. If players are expected to do both, they will choose one. That's a product of Bad Game Design.
I think it would be okay if they added in the ability to pick your ability's. like in ns1 with upgrades. In the case of the lerk it would either be a not so high dps long range or a 2-3 hit kill with no hp/armor upgrades. or you could do it so secondary attack is spikes and primary is bite and make a delay between using the other (5-10 seconds?). also lerks should have wall and ceiling walking but at a reduced walk speed and only be attached when you toggle(for people that have not so good keyboards/lazy)/hold down a key so that you cant accidentally attach.
I also like the idea of them picking up bombs and dropping them. that could get pretty complex. lots of attaching and detaching, and you cant land or wall walk while hold them, energy is drained more rapidly can only fly, and you fly slightly slower, the bomb does block bullets but can also be shot and broken while the lerk holds it, the payload still delivers, but were it was broken. slight 1 or 2 second delay before you can use weapons after the bomb has detached from the lerk. the bombs can come from infestation, the lerk takes some and makes it into a ball. so the dropped bomb should help spread infestation a little since that can destroy buildings and such? so maby the explosion can do a little damage 20 or 30 or so, so it penalizes the lerk for not dodging bullets, but it still can help getting over a group of not suspecting marines. or the bombs could not damage structures at all, just spread infestation (delay before infestation can be harvested for use with bombs). alien commander can drop buildings that make it at a set rate and lerks and gorges can spread it. this reinforces the lerk as mostly support, defense and some attack. id gladly play lerk as a class that can only do 20-30 direct aoe damage (in addition to the cloud attacks.)
as for all the people asking for multi directional flying, with the current model it wont work realistically, it would need to resemble a humming bird. BUT if that were not the case, it would be nice, the fly the same direction thing would not work, its to complicated to do automatically and naturally. my suggestion would be either a evolutionary type thing, you start as basic lerk, then later upgrade to the humming bird lerk. OR a separate lerk you can choose from. this could also solve the problem with the bite or spikes, normal lerk gets bite and humming bird lerk gets spikes. movement would be pretty complicated for the humming bird lerk, hold jump to add altitude, altitude lock key so you can only move laterally. and maby a total position lock key(explosions still move you, moving unlocks you automatically) only going up uses energy, staying level uses none and has a very slow energy regeneration. running out of energy causes you to not be able to attack or use flying to go up until you land.
lastly id like to say numbers cant be accurately decided until most of the game is done, and they are just ideas. some ideas are not mine but some are from other posters on the thread.
Comments
Regards,
Matt.
EDIT: yourbonesakin has a great point! I concur wholly. Maybe instead of bite, add a close range attribute (incase of being too close to enemies) like using your knife in BF Bad Company 2. Maybe regarding the wings of the Lerk?
A short range (no shooting to the end of a long hallway) low rate of fire (3 second recharge) high damage (3 well placed shots per kill) easily aimed spike shotgun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A decent lerk is practically immune to lmg fire while in flight chances in actually hitting it unless it attacks you with a wrong timing. I would say in early game lerk is a soft counter to the marines in the field, bite makes this possible. I can see why shooting (long range) sounds appealing but after six months (exaggerated) do still love few easy kills you get with it? I doubt it.
I agree that very close ranged shotgun type spike might work and sniper should be removed.
As long as it isn't instant kill like the BFBC2 knoife
Unless the flying model is super smooth (a la jetpacks), shooting with any accuracy will be completely and utterly impossible. Lots of turbulence will be bad if we want dofighting lerks, basically. So the discontinuous flapping MUST go if we want lerks firing and shooting at the exact same time. It has to be smooth as butter so shooting and flying simultaneously can be encouraged.
A short range (no shooting to the end of a long hallway) low rate of fire (3 second recharge) high damage (3 well placed shots per kill) easily aimed spike shotgun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1 but keep the zoomed in one shot spike sniper rifle, have it drain all of your energy so you can't snipe and then immediately escape to cover. it should encourage setting up the sniper shot.
and hats!
Nub lerks still have gas, which is really powerful.
This has been suggested many times before in earlier threads, with significant opposition from the people who want longer range spikes back. Maybe people will listen this time?
Your suggestion has a fatal flaw however, which also undermines the rest of your reasoning. A "low rate of fire (3 second recharge) high damage (3 well placed shots per kill)" weapon is entirely ineffectual against medpacks. Basically, if the commander meds (and he will if he isn't terrible) it will be impossible for you to frag as Lerk, because the marine heals between every shot. As long as the marines can use medpacks, low ROF primary weapons won't be viable unless they one hit kill (which would be even worse than an ineffectual weapon).
In NS the Lerk bite was high damage with a moderate-high ROF. The Lerk then had a choice:
A. Risk taking a lot of damage by trying to hit consecutive bites that did damage faster than the commander could drop meds
B. Dodge between bites, reducing the risk of taking damage greatly but also giving the commander ample opportunity to drop meds between attacks.
The better the player got at Lerking, the better he would also get at combining A and B. Making this work similarly with close range spikes would require some tweaking, the damage output of each hit would probably have to be lowered a bit. Personally I think shotgun spikes is a great option, but a 3 second recharge shotgun spike definitely isn't.
Another problem is that, as you accurately identified, this model is skill demanding, or at least it has a very steep initial learning curve. Unfortunately I don't think it's possible to do much about this. A melee range flying creature playing against long range high damage hitscan weapons is always going to have a steep initial learning curve. If the learning curve/skill demand is a big problem for you, a ranged lerk is probably the only viable option.
As a self-described competitive player, your idea of a "decent" lerk is probably quite a long way above the average player. No-one's suggesting NS2 should be balanced around nublets, or that skilled players shouldn't have an advantage, but having your primary attack be basically ineffectual unless you are highly skilled isn't a good idea. That was pointed out in the "wall of text".
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=Mkk_Bitestuff)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mkk_Bitestuff)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You say that flying at a marine as lerk at a low level (im assuming a low level of skill) is a bad idea. While true, lets looks at that same player as a skulk, what will they do as skulk.. run straight at a marine while biting, getting 20 bulleted? Giving that same player a shotgun type spike attack, they are just going to fly straight in like with bite, your encouraging that very behavior you said is bad... Giving them a different close range skill fixes nothing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The suggested spike shotgun is a medium range weapon. The whole point is for lerk's primary attack to be effective without them having to close to melee range. Strafe flapping would probably work well with this kind of weapon.
...and I'm pretty sure low level players learn pretty early on that to be effective as a skulk ambushing is the way to go, not suicide charges.
Which does cost resources. So it <b>might</b> not end in kills, but it sure would put a strain their resources.
No, that isn't what I said at all. Shotgun spikes is a great idea, but it can't be slow ROF, at least not slow ROF defined as a 3 second recharge time. It would have to fire roughly as fast as the NS Lerk bite.
This would be easy to work into the "lore" as well. The Lerk can either fire a single powerful big spike or several smaller spikes at once. Makes sense!
If the sniper spikes were tweaked to be more like the primary fire spikes currently in NS2 (give them a falling trajectory that's slightly longer than the current NS2 spikes, with high damage and slow ROF) shotgun spike and sniper spike would work perfectly in tandem. Sniper spikes could be easily countered by medpacks, giving Lerks incentive to do higher risk shotgun spike attacks instead of just sitting in a vent all game. Sniper spikes would still be useful for annoying marines, picking off wounded marines or helping skulks take marines down to one bite health during attacks.
This would be easy to work into the "lore" as well. The Lerk can either fire a single powerful big spike or several smaller spikes at once. Makes sense!
If the sniper spikes were tweaked to be more like the primary fire spikes currently in NS2 (give them a falling trajectory that's slightly longer than the current NS2 spikes, with high damage and slow ROF) shotgun spike and sniper spike would work perfectly in tandem. Sniper spikes could be easily countered by medpacks, giving Lerks incentive to do higher risk shotgun spike attacks instead of just sitting in a vent all game. Sniper spikes would still be useful for annoying marines, picking off wounded marines or helping skulks take marines down to one bite health during attacks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
excuse me for leaving out rof, thought it was kinda implied in the post that you replied to regarding medspam.
Yes, because a Skulk doesn't have wings...
Each lifeform needs to be unique to offer a wider range of abilities, and having 2 lifeforms performing the same move means an ability will get the chop. With a Skulk, Fade, Onos and battle Gorge, there's plenty of offense options, and the Lerk seems a more interesting lifeform staying with support/defense. Besides, the new Lerk design has a very small beak, hardly going to be a bother for these hardened marines...
Each lifeform needs to be unique to offer a wider range of abilities, and having 2 lifeforms performing the same move means an ability will get the chop. With a Skulk, Fade, Onos and battle Gorge, there's plenty of offense options, and the Lerk seems a more interesting lifeform staying with support/defense. Besides, the new Lerk design has a very small beak, hardly going to be a bother for these hardened marines...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Each lifeform needs to be unique. Yes exactly. If you give lerks long-range spikes like they do now, they are just marines with wings. If they can shoot from distance, they don't have to use their wings at all other than moving most of the time. Thus they just fly to move around, how boring. Like I said, bite makes it <i>more unique</i> because it has to close-up and do aerobatics instead of sniping from distance and flying away when marines come close.
And its not same moves, the aerobatics of lerk are completely <i>different</i> from that of a skulk, lerks are not jetpacks just because they both can fly. The have both different flying techniques. Most aliens have melee attacks. Onos gore, skulk bite, lerk bite, fade swipe are unique even though they're all short-range melee attacks. What's going in the viewmodel is just meaningless for the gameplay.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Lerk seems a more interesting lifeform staying with support/defense<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It has always been like that in NS1.
It could provide a nice finishing move or hit-n-run strike as another option to strafing with spikes (rapid fire or semi-auto shotgun). It's just an idea that flew through my head.
Your suggestion has a fatal flaw however, which also undermines the rest of your reasoning. A "low rate of fire (3 second recharge) high damage (3 well placed shots per kill)" weapon is entirely ineffectual against medpacks. Basically, if the commander meds (and he will if he isn't terrible) it will be impossible for you to frag as Lerk, because the marine heals between every shot. As long as the marines can use medpacks, low ROF primary weapons won't be viable unless they one hit kill (which would be even worse than an ineffectual weapon).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're totally right about the med spam. So a 2 shot kill weapon (that can't kill a marine with no armor) would probably be best. If it can kill a marine with 100 hp and zero armor, then med spam is useless. We want med spam to still be useful in the early game.
90 damage would still be a two-shot kill. If one adds spores to a spike shotgun shot, one can kill even with medspam, but that takes skill. Some added skill should increase combat effectiveness so there you go.
And the argument a lerk shouldn't be a skulk with wings is so bad. The lerk in ns1 was unique and awesome like he was. All changes to this class will just make it worse. Additions yes, a total conversion... please no :|
And the argument a lerk shouldn't be a skulk with wings is so bad. The lerk in ns1 was unique and awesome like he was. All changes to this class will just make it worse. Additions yes, a total conversion... please no :|<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ah, so everything in NS1 was absolutely perfect and only additions should be made to the original game otherwise a Video Game Travesty of Grand Proportions will occur?
It sounds like instead of admitting the lerk was not perfect, you are falling back to making <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro--><b><!--sizeo:2--><span style="font-size:10pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Predictions Of Ruin<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> so you don't have to think and perhaps realize that A) You are wrong and B) the game you love had its flaws.
It's much better to rationally think about things and figure out if they are wrong or if they do have flaws. That way you can actually fix problems instead of clinging to safety blanket belief systems. Unless all you care about is <i>feeling right</i> instead of <i>being right</i>. Then nothing will convince you.
Also a shotgun attack can be a middle range attack. The easiest way to do this is limit how many bullets can hit a single target. So a shotgun doesn't have to encourage melee range fighting if we're creative. Make the spread dense and wide enough but have a maximum damage less than the number of bullets fired can do if they all hit, so firing it closer to a marine won't deal any more damage after a certain point.
That way its A) easy to fire, B) encourages shooting from much more than melee range, and C) deals consistent damage. All good things in my book.
<!--quoteo(post=1795484:date=Aug 20 2010, 07:27 PM:name=yourbonesakin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yourbonesakin @ Aug 20 2010, 07:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1795484"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It sounds like instead of admitting the lerk was not perfect, you are falling back to making <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro--><b><!--sizeo:2--><span style="font-size:10pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Predictions Of Ruin<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> so you don't have to think and perhaps realize that A) You are wrong and B) the game you love had its flaws.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
See first paragraph. And yeah, of course I should admit it has flaws. Especially because A) <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro--><b><!--sizeo:2--><span style="font-size:10pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->YOU<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> say it has flaws and B) if you say it has flaws, it's a fact. Yeah right :D
<!--quoteo(post=1795484:date=Aug 20 2010, 07:27 PM:name=yourbonesakin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yourbonesakin @ Aug 20 2010, 07:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1795484"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's much better to rationally think about things and figure out if they are wrong or if they do have flaws. That way you can actually fix problems instead of clinging to safety blanket belief systems. Unless all you care about is <i>feeling right</i> instead of <i>being right</i>. Then nothing will convince you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, in my opinion the ns1 lerk was perfect. I guess I even thought about it, oh wonder. I don't have to explain myself when I say I liked everything on it how it is in ns1. But since you say it had flaws, you better explain what it is.
You are mixing something up here. Opinions != facts. Like I said before, just because you think something has flaws, it doesn't make it a fact.
And again I say don't completly change something which was awesome already. Just enhance it.
So either the lerk is perfect or it can be enhanced. They are mutually exclusive.
If you believe the lerk can be enhanced, then you absolutely agree with me that the NS1 lerk has its flaws and should be changed.
I am working with the words you typed; the only thing I can ever do. You can certainly change what you're saying, but you cannot ever fault me for attempting to derive meaning from the words you use to communicate and craft a response based on those words.
Perhaps you have misused the term "perfect". That's certainly understandable. Maybe you were just overstating how good you think the NS1 lerk is.
Perhaps my response was applied in the wrong circumstance, but it is still absolutely true. Something perfect cannot be enhanced in any manner ever.
But I think you're admitting you have two beliefs contradicting each other.
<!--quoteo(post=1795506:date=Aug 20 2010, 02:50 PM:name=Mkk_Bitestuff)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mkk_Bitestuff @ Aug 20 2010, 02:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1795506"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The 'shotgun' spikes attack would need a rof to match the current bite rof, dealing roughly the same damage at point blank. The lerk will already have gas and the standard spikes attack for harrassing/wasting marines res, it doesnt need another attack for the same thing. This is the lerks primary dps attack, he should be able to kill with it relatively easily should he get that close.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If shooting while flying was possible, then a high rate of fire weapon would be awesome. I just don't think Unknown Worlds will make a flying model which is A) Smooth enough and B) Is independent of mouse movement. Basically, if you can only fly forward and you must face a marine to shoot and flying reduces accuracy, a high rate of fire weapon heavily discourages flying in combat. Which is Bad Game Design, because flying aliens should be flying while in combat.
We want flying aliens to use flying in combat because flying should be used for something more than transptoration because flying does not grant access to any areas wallwalking skulks can't already access. And if speed is flight's only special property, something is terribly wrong.
Even then, shooting while flying is difficult. Having to constantly face the marine you are fighting to pepper him with high rate of fire spikes while flying around is too many simultaneous actions. Only very talented players can pull it off. Hell, even when there aren't cramped hallways and low ceilings, players in space flight simulators can't shoot and fly at the same time unless they have a joystick. NS1 lerks trying to pull that off just bump into walls or snag on ceilings like mentally handicapped pigeons because they can't ###### see where they are going and they can't ###### focus on flying.
So a high rate of fire weapon is stupid for a player class which has a very complex movement system. Shooting should be used in conjunction with flying, but not at the same time. If players are expected to do both, they will choose one. That's a product of Bad Game Design.
I also like the idea of them picking up bombs and dropping them. that could get pretty complex. lots of attaching and detaching, and you cant land or wall walk while hold them, energy is drained more rapidly can only fly, and you fly slightly slower, the bomb does block bullets but can also be shot and broken while the lerk holds it, the payload still delivers, but were it was broken. slight 1 or 2 second delay before you can use weapons after the bomb has detached from the lerk. the bombs can come from infestation, the lerk takes some and makes it into a ball. so the dropped bomb should help spread infestation a little since that can destroy buildings and such? so maby the explosion can do a little damage 20 or 30 or so, so it penalizes the lerk for not dodging bullets, but it still can help getting over a group of not suspecting marines. or the bombs could not damage structures at all, just spread infestation (delay before infestation can be harvested for use with bombs). alien commander can drop buildings that make it at a set rate and lerks and gorges can spread it. this reinforces the lerk as mostly support, defense and some attack. id gladly play lerk as a class that can only do 20-30 direct aoe damage (in addition to the cloud attacks.)
as for all the people asking for multi directional flying, with the current model it wont work realistically, it would need to resemble a humming bird. BUT if that were not the case, it would be nice, the fly the same direction thing would not work, its to complicated to do automatically and naturally. my suggestion would be either a evolutionary type thing, you start as basic lerk, then later upgrade to the humming bird lerk. OR a separate lerk you can choose from. this could also solve the problem with the bite or spikes, normal lerk gets bite and humming bird lerk gets spikes. movement would be pretty complicated for the humming bird lerk, hold jump to add altitude, altitude lock key so you can only move laterally. and maby a total position lock key(explosions still move you, moving unlocks you automatically) only going up uses energy, staying level uses none and has a very slow energy regeneration. running out of energy causes you to not be able to attack or use flying to go up until you land.
lastly id like to say numbers cant be accurately decided until most of the game is done, and they are just ideas. some ideas are not mine but some are from other posters on the thread.