NS2 Lerk Bite/Spikes
Jiriki
retired ns1 player Join Date: 2003-01-04 Member: 11780Members, NS1 Playtester, Squad Five Silver
retired ns1 player Join Date: 2003-01-04 Member: 11780Members, NS1 Playtester, Squad Five Silver
I was going to post this in the flight thread but since I thought poll would fit in here, I think this is a better place.
If you're serious about not repeating the mistakes of 1.0, then do not include spikes and use bite. Spikes were stupid in 1.04, if you've seen competitive games, lerks just sit in in safe positions and spike from there, most of the time anyway. After version 2 and 3, the lerks have had to engage in close-combat, trying to avoid bullets while making the decisive bites which is far more challenging then the "sitting in vents" strategy. After v3 the lerk has required dexterity, accuracy, good hand-eye coordination, spatial awareness and coordination to make it effective in close-combat. The best lerks are hard even for the best lmgs to track, compared to all other lifeforms which are easy to track. I cannot speak for everyone, but having played competitively since the first version I can tell you that most, if not all best lerks agree with me. Bite is much more interesting skill-wise.
Also spikes break the assymetry that has been between the sides. Aliens have been melee whereas marines have been ranged. Current NS1 version includes RTS-element, FPS-element, different kinds of melee elements and aerobatics-demanding lifeform, the Lerk. In no other game, there're so much variety. By introducing the spikes, you're going to remove a part of this colourful versatility.
<a href="http://getsatisfaction.com/unknownworlds/topics/bring_back_the_v3_lerk" target="_blank">Bring back the bite!</a>
If you're serious about not repeating the mistakes of 1.0, then do not include spikes and use bite. Spikes were stupid in 1.04, if you've seen competitive games, lerks just sit in in safe positions and spike from there, most of the time anyway. After version 2 and 3, the lerks have had to engage in close-combat, trying to avoid bullets while making the decisive bites which is far more challenging then the "sitting in vents" strategy. After v3 the lerk has required dexterity, accuracy, good hand-eye coordination, spatial awareness and coordination to make it effective in close-combat. The best lerks are hard even for the best lmgs to track, compared to all other lifeforms which are easy to track. I cannot speak for everyone, but having played competitively since the first version I can tell you that most, if not all best lerks agree with me. Bite is much more interesting skill-wise.
Also spikes break the assymetry that has been between the sides. Aliens have been melee whereas marines have been ranged. Current NS1 version includes RTS-element, FPS-element, different kinds of melee elements and aerobatics-demanding lifeform, the Lerk. In no other game, there're so much variety. By introducing the spikes, you're going to remove a part of this colourful versatility.
<a href="http://getsatisfaction.com/unknownworlds/topics/bring_back_the_v3_lerk" target="_blank">Bring back the bite!</a>
Comments
A lot of the stuff that made lerk play challenging in NS1 3.x isn't easy to learn and is balanced around some of the quirks of the HL engine- pancaking, bad hitreg when small things move at high speeds etc
Trying to cram all the things from NS1 that we think was cool into NS2 could back-fire: some features might not suit the style of NS2 and everything is subjective! Personally, I'd rather the lerk became a true support fighter rather than a smaller, more mobile fade.
In defense of spikes, let me describe my vision of it. It seems the rapid-fire spikes will be projectiles that have 'bullet-drop'. The sniper spikes (slower firing/zoomed mode) are hit-scan. I think this would allow the lerk to be an effective guerrilla unit. The rapid-fire spikes are only useful in very short-ranged combat due to being actual projectiles with travel time and drop. Combined with some element of strafe-flight or view-direction change, this would be very useful for hit-n-run tactics. The sniper spikes would be more similar to the old NS lerk. Due to the slow rate of fire, I don't see them being useful against much anything but basic marines or maybe distracted JPers. The sniper-mode is a secondary tool for the lerk, but I don't see it making lerk camping highly effective.
I can't wait to playtest whatever gets implemented. Lerking is so much fun.
Hehe, this was probably a "TLDR;" version of what culprit posted <img src="http://members.home.nl/m.borgman/ns-forum/smileys/biggrin.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Would be a way of solving issues with camping in vents, and give a very interesting taste to flight and movement. Maybe giving more speed to some sort of bile bomb when the lerk does a loop.
Is the gorge getting bile bomb in NS2?
It seems you missed the amazing mod Forgotten Hope, where those planes had limited bombs (and some which had bombs were stripped, because IRL they wouldn't be able to fly). Where you had to make sure your bombs would hit the target (dive bombing was most effective, especially with the good ol Stuka incl. awesome dive sound :D)
Maybe the Lerk should be able to hurl pieces of dynamic infestation at the marines, to either damage or help spread the growth. this dive bombing idea sounds like a pretty cool addition...
I also really enjoyed the flight in BF1942. I think that's a great metric to use as it was pretty commercially successful and had decent mouse/keyboard controls for the flying.
The main problem for me with a lerk bomb would be the artistic implementation. Gorges vomiting Hydras and lerks crapping bile-bombs? I guess that's not too weird.
EDIT:
I also like the idea of a bombing lerk having to resupply its bombs. Using DI as bomb material sounds pretty awesome Kouji_San.
I mean, seriously didn't we go this path already in 1.04. NS2 will be a commercial game, why repeat the same mistakes?
I hope UWE would implimented something that cannot be done by every Joe that just joins the game but the skill , experience and effort would really show not in the strategic side only but in the alienform and marine play aswell.
Lerk snipe is great example of something that can be pulled of by anyone and is very boring in the long run since there is not much room to develop.
I like the shotgun-esque approach. It would be pretty awesome if he had an animation similar to how that Archangel Xmen character where he flaps both of his wings inward towards each other and a blast of spikes came out for shorter ranger damage. I would much prefer that to the sniping ability that is currently implemented.
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>That said, what the hell is the point of a flying alien anyway?</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
and to the point above, the point for a flying alien is to Dive bomb bite the marines' heads off, which making spike the only attack causes a problem
What about having both spike and bite <_<?
spikes are awesome
Flying skulks. Seriously. I've played as lerk in high-level matches and I can tell you that aerobatics of lerking are completely different from that of a skulk. Those who are good skulks are not good lerks. Actually there are only few good lerks. If you're trying to make the argument that bite would somehow decrease the versatility, then you're wrong. Indeed, with spikes lerks will just start to resemble marines with the same type of ranged attack, just different damage and models. NS1 wasn't this, it was about ranged vs melee requiring different kind of skills. Yes shotgun-type short-range spikes would probably be the same deal.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That said, what the hell is the point of a flying alien anyway?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because it adds new skillset, that is aerobatics of evading bullets while doing damage with close-range melee attack adding more depth to NS. Besides, 90% of the units were copied from starcraft which has loads of flying alien units.
That's like saying in Starcraft II, mutalisks are flying hydralisks so what's the point of having them.
That's like saying in Starcraft II, mutalisks are flying hydralisks so what's the point of having them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
/facepalm
No. Your analogy fails. In SC2, flying units bypass all terrain. In SC2, flying units are immune to many attacks. Zealot. Baneling. Zergling. Marauder. Banshee. Colossus. Siege Tank. Hellion. Roach. Ultralisk. Immortal. Dark Templar. Brood lord. Reaper. Many, many units cannot in any way shape or form damage flying units. A lot of good units, too.
Flying units in NS1 or NS2 are not arbitrarily immune to over 1/3 of all other units. In fact, they are not completely immune to anything (except maybe Onos in a tall room? But a flying alien is not completely immune to any marine, so the point at the table still stands).
A skulk can get anywhere a lerk can. Becoming a lerk does not magically allow you to access spaces previously inaccessible.
Again I ask:
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>What is the point of a flying alien?</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
We have "increasing the skill set of aliens" for an answer. Which is totally awesome! Learning how to flying around and kill people while flying around is epic. Giving aliens more unique answers to the question "How do I kill marines" is good.
So is that the only reason we have lerks? Fighting stagnation and boredom is a great reason. Adding more to the game by expanding options and fun and strategic depth is a great reason.
So far, the only reason we have for a flying alien to be in NS2 <i>at all</i> is to increase options (strategic depth) and thereby increase fun.
So why the hell does a flying alien need bite more than spikes or spikes more than bite?
Well, the entire point of having a flying alien is that it flies around a lot. Really. That's what they do. So if we give flying aliens a long range weapon with perfect accuracy, flying aliens not only <i>can</i> stay put on the ground (not flying) but are <i>encouraged</i> to do so. So that idea is straight up terrible.
Flying around should be a big part of what they do all the time. Not just what they do to get from point A to point B. In SC2, flying is not only used in getting from point A to point B, it also helps flying units in combat (they are immune to about 1/3 of all units). Shazam! That's a very visible property of what flying gives flying units in SC2.
So we need a combat option (this is an FPS/RTS) which makes flying units use their flying abilities. Or at least the option should be compatible with flying or not outright discouarge flying (by reducing accuracy by a ton like NS1's lerk flight model, unlike jetpack flight model.... wtf?).
Giving lerks bite does this. It does this well. It encourages flying around marines, biting them as you chuckle evilly. Pulling off sweet maneuvers, the whole shebang. Except it fails super hard. It's not a good option for making flying aliens fly around in combat because flying at a marine at low level is a SUPER RETARDEDLY HORRIBLE IDEA. And I can already hear the "But but but but! High skilled lerks are actually good with bite and it is fun for them!" If an idea only works with amazingly talented "pro" gamers, it is THE WORST ###### IDEA EVER CONCEIVED AND SHOULD NOT BE PART OF ANY GAME EVER. Surprise! Low level gamers actually matter! Flayra agrees with me! That's how it is. Note how I never said "A game mechanic which becomes better with more skill shouldn't be a part of any game." That's all we should have in any game. I said "A game mechanic which is only viable AT ALL with amazing talent and dedication shouldn't be a part of any game ever."
Flying at marines at low level with a lerk is a terrible idea. It is the worst idea ever. It is resources wasted instantly. Players should be encouraged to fly around during combat. They should not be encouraged to fly <b>at</b> marines in cramped hallways with low ceilings. That is not using their flying property well. That is not gaining an advantage by flying around.
"But but but but but! Skulks have bite and they have to run at marines!" Well, skulks can't ###### fly. Lerks can fly. They need to have a combat option which both encourages flying and uses flying well.
So bite is a terrible idea. It is the worst idea. If a game mechanic only functions well in a small subset of skill levels, low or high, it needs to be canned instantly with no thought.
Thank you Unknown Worlds Entertainment for canning bite. It needed to go and it went.
No, let's talk about long range combat options. I've just proved how melee range combat options shouldn't even be in our tangential thought patterns about possible combat options for flying aliens except to reassure ourselves that they should never be implemented.
I find it easiest to talk about how something could be implemented terribly and then say "Well, we shouldn't do that". Process of deduction. We already know that perfect accuracy infinite range combat options don't encourage flying (because flying reduces accuracy). Perfect accuracy infinite range spikes encourage lerks to stop flying and pick off marines from afar. That's stupid. So perfect accuracy infinite range combat options are out. Rapid fire makes increases the flying accuracy problem. You can't fly at all if you want to shoot and hit.
So perfect accuracy infinite range combat options are out. So we go with short ranged (either by reducing accuracy or straight up making the spieks disappear after flying too far) combat options. But we have to be able to fly around as part of our combat schtick.
Unless the flying model is super smooth (a la jetpacks), shooting with any accuracy will be completely and utterly impossible. Lots of turbulence will be bad if we want dofighting lerks, basically. So the discontinuous flapping MUST go if we want lerks firing and shooting at the exact same time. It has to be smooth as butter so shooting and flying simultaneously can be encouraged.
Unless lerks become humming birds, I don't think super smooth flight is going to work for them aesthetically. They look like they flap, fall, and rise bodily as they fly.
Well, what if we want turbulence? Flapping around as if the alien has wings and is bodily going up and down? Then we have to forfeit flying aliens ever firing and shooting at the same time except at super high level play. But we still want lerks to be flying around in combat. So low damage high rate of fire stuff is straight out. Just totally straight out. Because if your weapon is high rate of fire, every single second you're flying, you're losing damage output. So we'd have to have a low rate of fire weapon. That means we can fly around while the weapon is recharging and you're not losing damage output. Shazam! We now have a weapon which can be used in conjunction with flying (but not at exactly the same time).
What does this weapon look like?
Short range weapon so we don't have lerks lazing about at end of hall ways (read: not flying) or low level lerks executing inefficient tactics. Low rate of fire (2-3 second delay between shots) so lerks can actually fly around and shoot while fighting and not lose damage output. It also has to be easy to aim and fire accurately very quickly. Because a grounded, aiming lerk is a dead lerk. Lerks have to be flying as much of the time as possible. Therefore, single bullets aimed at the center of the screen = fail. <!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>Sniper mode for Lerks = fail.</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> A burst of a lot of bullets in a wide spread = awesome. So the weapon is basically a shotgun. The lerk shoots a lot of spikes very quickly in a wide spread pattern. A single shot has to do moderately high damage because its a low rate of fire weapon. 3 well placed shots per kill sounds reasonable.
<i><!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>Conclusion:</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></i>
So what do I want?
A short range (no shooting to the end of a long hallway) low rate of fire (3 second recharge) high damage (3 well placed shots per kill) easily aimed spike shotgun.
Yep I like it.
<i><!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>Conclusion:</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></i>
So what do I want?
A short range (no shooting to the end of a long hallway) low rate of fire (3 second recharge) high damage (3 well placed shots per kill) easily aimed spike shotgun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Totally awesome and well reasoned argument.
Let me add another suggestion that fits with your argument, and has already been raised on this thread.... a bomb attack. Pretty sure that ticks all the boxes.
Edit: well it ticks all the boxes if the level geometry allows lerks to bomb marines without having to be in insta-shotgun-death range. So either we need some spaces with high ceilings (a la marine and alien spawns in tram), or the bomb needs to have some momentum so you can do it from mid range.
Edit2: and now I think it through, that bomb is basically spores. Duh.
A bomb drop/launch attack would be totally awesome. It can be used while flying and AOE damage means easy to aim.
The reason that doesn't work currently for aliens is the skulk's wallwalk + leap means they can get anywhere lerks can. And the wallwalking and leaping is so integral to the skulk's playstyle that I don't think it should be messed with.
Adjusting lerks weapons to fit the highly-mobile mid-range support niche works well I think. The fade is the highly mobile melee class, bitey lerks as per 3.2 are just a cheaper, harder to master version of the same mixed with some support abilities.
So given my bomb think-through above, I'd say a spike-shotgun, plus making umbra and spores shorter range with a ballistic trajectory (falls over distance) would be the way to go.