Automated features don't feel inuitive to me. In many games I even prefer to switch the autoreload off as it somehow helps me to cope with the game rhytm better. Also, hitting a dodging marine has got some challenge, even if you rarely miss the actual leaping initiation hit.
If they really want to implement it, I hope there will be cl_autobite 0 option at least. I highly doubt I'd learn to like this one, even if it's advantageous.
Typical reaction I expected from this news. It happens with anything they release pretty much.
You guys should have more faith in UWE. Every time they change something, you all complain like a bunch of babies. Why not try it out before saying how much you hate it. This is the same thing that happened with the taser and many other things.
This is the only update I have heard which I am very disappointed about.. It just takes all the skill out of playing a skulk.
I bet the first custom mod to come out will be one to disable this, and all the servers will be using it (If there is no function to disable it in the default server options).
<!--quoteo(post=1733098:date=Oct 21 2009, 01:59 AM:name=psykotik)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (psykotik @ Oct 21 2009, 01:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733098"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is the same thing that happened with the taser and many other things.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But this is very different from the taser situation. In Natural Selection 1, at our disposal we had both bite and leap, two separate moves. We knew how both moves worked and knew how to use them together in ways that were satisfying, skill based, and fun. We can use inductive reasoning with this update to realize that the removing of the separation of the two moves would, based on our Natural Selection 1 experiences, create a situation that is in no way satisfying, skill based, or fun.
The taser on the other hand was a completely foreign weapon that had no bearings to the way Natural Selection 1 worked at all. And as such, my response was, "this needs to be seen in game."
But in regards to autobite: I'm easily and completely backing homicide on this issue.
<!--quoteo(post=1733087:date=Oct 20 2009, 11:01 PM:name=homicide)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (homicide @ Oct 20 2009, 11:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733087"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Simply put, leaping and timing a bite is one of the most satisfying techniques in NS.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree with this too, but your first post is the one that should matter to the devs. At all other periods of the game, you have to click the mouse to bite, but at the end of a leap, wait, don't do it! That's the opposite of intuitive and simple. If they want to make the game more accessible, this isn't the thing to change.
Someone else above mentioned increasing leap damage, which seems fine to me. As long as it isn't an auto attack.
I hope Flayra will rethink this. It's one thing to let players easily execute what they want to do (+movement), and entirely another to do it for them. The marine equivalent would be like having your gun fire automatically when the crosshairs are over an alien.
BadMouthIt ceases to be exclusive when you can have a custom member titlJoin Date: 2004-05-21Member: 28815Members
Indeed, I do wish to keep the ability to bite by myself. But actually, I can think of less scenarios of where I would not bite, rather than bite. If you're leaping, and you contact with a marine, most likely, you would want to bite. The number of times I would not want to do that would be minimal. So I think auto-bite is not such a big deal.
However, I think this ability should be toggled on or off. This would basically appease the community.
It sounds like an interesting change and I'll look forward to trying it myself, then making an opinion on it. Just because something works a little differently, doesn't mean it will be bad. Perhaps it will suck as well. Can't really say till I get the game in my hands.
I'm interested in playing NS2, not NS on a different engine.
<!--quoteo(post=1733107:date=Oct 21 2009, 09:20 AM:name=Silver_Fox)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Silver_Fox @ Oct 21 2009, 09:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733107"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm interested in playing NS2, not NS on a different engine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly.
If you look at the bite at the end as just extra damage to the leap then it is no different. And who ses you cant still bite straight after or right before the auto-bite?
One tweet and four hours later there's 3+ pages of flaming and nay-saying (here and in other threads).
Sigh...
If they had just said "leap does damage now" I doubt any of this would have happened.
edit: <!--quoteo(post=1733109:date=Oct 21 2009, 12:28 AM:name=ChocoZuma)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ChocoZuma @ Oct 21 2009, 12:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733109"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you look at the bite at the end as just extra damage to the leap then it is no different.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> lol jynx
I wish to play NS2 as well, not just a port of NS onto a new shiny engine.
But you must be blind not to see that this is just taking all the skill out of the abilities? I want to play a game where you can tell the diffrence between a seasoned player and a newbie just from simple executions of certain abilities. This is just easymode, and is catering to the people who have no motivation to improve there gaming skills because they just suck all together.
pSyk0mAnNerdish by NatureGermanyJoin Date: 2003-08-07Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
edited October 2009
I think auto-bite after leap should be an option for new players, if at all.
Let's face it, good players try not to touch the marine, while leap-biting, so they can fly-by and are harder to hit. So this will only be useful for new players that aren't familar with the ns1 skulk, thus make it an option. (Of course, they might have nerfed leap so much as hive1-ability that you can barely fly-by, next outrage incoming :D)
I think, if you force this on good players, you'll just frustrate them. For example, there are probably situations where you might wanna leap twice and don't plan on touching a marine (group-fights in a rather narrow enviroment) and the unmeant bite screws you.
<!--quoteo(post=1733107:date=Oct 21 2009, 07:20 AM:name=Silver_Fox)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Silver_Fox @ Oct 21 2009, 07:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733107"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm interested in playing NS2, not NS on a different engine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That argument is getting old.
It's not like NS2 will be similar anyway as long as we've got power grid, alien commander, new movement physics, new tech trees, an engine designed for RTS/FPS, changes in squad mechanics, changes in alien teching mechanic and different res model for aliens. I can't think of many sequels that have changed as many core elements as dramatically.
In addition, a lot of those are changes that I can agree. They address a lot of issues that NS had, but couldn't be fixed without big rework. Things like bite timing on the other hand seem quite irrelevant for me as the challenges of bite usage have never been there. I'd rather have the dev team focusing something else. I wouldn't categorize it on "Do we want to get this done before the alpha release?" features at least.
So, if the Dev's would not use the word "bite" but "Skulk Headnut at the end of Leap that do extra damage" (with extra animation) AND the feature could be disabled - what would you think?
I seriously think we should just stop arguing and let them do what they think is right... Every twitter proposing change evokes some argument over an infinite number of pros and cons and an un-ending dispute about game-balance and how its to be fixed.
I think the bite is OK. It's not going to change much and its not that exciting, but its news and thats good to hear.
<!--quoteo(post=1733091:date=Oct 21 2009, 04:13 PM:name=homicide)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (homicide @ Oct 21 2009, 04:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733091"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Are you incapable of critical thinking? You don't have to see something in action to conceptually imagine it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeap. but it does help alot of you have seen it in action.. you know. Really makes no sense to say, oh wait this thing is gonna take away timing on biting on a leap in a game that i havn't played or seen any gameplay of except for small reveal videos which actually dont show much about the gameplay at all. what if leap is just a small leap say 2-3 metres forward?Timing your bite then would be meh, more of the skill would actually be leaping at the enemy.
yea i do flame/troll you abit homicide ive been grumpy lately
So i see from your side, you dont want any of the skill factor taken away yea? but thats not possible if UWE are really taking an approach to simplify the game for new people. Now i don't want all of the skill factor gone but i dont like it how people just shoot down an idea before they see it.
<!--quoteo(post=1733119:date=Oct 21 2009, 06:04 PM:name=whoppaXXL)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (whoppaXXL @ Oct 21 2009, 06:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733119"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So, if the Dev's would not use the word "bite" but "Skulk Headnut at the end of Leap that do extra damage" (with extra animation) AND the feature could be disabled - what would you think?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i'd think hell yea? would change a lot of opinions
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
edited October 2009
Get some perspective people. This isn't going to simplify leap->bite too much. As zek pointed out already, having to hit the marine to bite is not optimal. Typically you can bite as you leap past or get near a marine and the skilled player will still be able to do this and it will still be a differentiator. I see this as a simplification of the very basic scenario where you leap directly at a marine. It will make it easier and less latency dependent to get off that bite on contact. Beginner players will be able to leap at marines and have a half decent chance of landing a hit, and skilled players will be able to do a lot more. When you're leaping at a marine, the last thing you want to do is make contact and fall the ground at their feet? You want to turn and bite on the way past to disorient them and then dash around them to land the second bite before they have time to react.
<!--quoteo(post=1733043:date=Oct 21 2009, 03:51 AM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spellman23 @ Oct 21 2009, 03:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733043"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I never really found it hard to bite while mid-leap.
Especially once they gave us +movement, it became even easier. fastswapping in the olde days was seriously high skill.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Okay i might sound stupid asking this but: What's this +movement i keep reading all over the place? I've been out of the NS loop for some years and i just used fastswapping as i do today. So what does +movement do?
On autobit: Hard to judge as long as we don't know how the new leap works, but i have to say it doesn't really convince me. Especially if we allready have leap as an alt-fire for bite, this allready makes it way easier than current fastswapping. But adding autobite? Maybe that's a little bit too much.
This makes me wonder if they still are planning on an xbox release, because autobite sounds a lot like something you would expect from a consol game.....
<!--quoteo(post=1733137:date=Oct 21 2009, 10:18 AM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (puzl @ Oct 21 2009, 10:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733137"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Get some perspective people. This isn't going to simplify leap->bite too much. As zek pointed out already, having to hit the marine to bite is not optimal. Typically you can bite as you leap past or get near a marine and the skilled player will still be able to do this and it will still be a differentiator. I see this as a simplification of the very basic scenario where you leap directly at a marine. It will make it easier and less latency dependent to get off that bite on contact. Beginner players will be able to leap at marines and have a half decent chance of landing a hit, and skilled players will be able to do a lot more. When you're leaping at a marine, the last thing you want to do is make contact and fall the ground at their feet? You want to turn and bite on the way past to disorient them and then dash around them to land the second bite before they have time to react.
edit: skulk headnut! I love it!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The simplification is so minute it's irrelevant for me at least. However, I've got a few doubts otherwise.
I'd consider the leap bite timing such a small part of the skulking challenge that it feels unnecessary to adress it in particular. Automating it might just create wrong kind of feedback to people as they think they are doing things right, while the automated execution is far from optimal. In addition many people prefer to do biting manually, so there will most likely be a need for cl_automatedbite option. That on the other hand adds a rather unnecessary need-to-know variable to the game.
It's still their call of course, but without knowing more it seems a little weird solution.
<!--quoteo(post=1733150:date=Oct 21 2009, 12:27 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Oct 21 2009, 12:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733150"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The simplification is so minute it's irrelevant for me at least. However, I've got a few doubts otherwise.
I'd consider the leap bite timing such a small part of the skulking challenge that it feels unnecessary to adress it in particular. Automating it might just create wrong kind of feedback to people as they think they are doing things right, while the automated execution is far from optimal. In addition many people prefer to do biting manually, so there will most likely be a need for cl_automatedbite option. That on the other hand adds a rather unnecessary need-to-know variable to the game.
It's still their call of course, but without knowing more it seems a little weird solution.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe the way to go would be as I mention the post above.
Autobite is, in my humble opinion, unnecessary since leap is now the alt-fire for bite (thumbs up), so there would be no trouble at all. In fact I scripted this combo in NS1 and worked for me just fine.
Of course I dk all the other gameplay aspects, changes and so on, but from what I know... thumbs down :(
<!--quoteo(post=1733149:date=Oct 21 2009, 12:26 PM:name=Tekoppen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tekoppen @ Oct 21 2009, 12:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733149"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Alright to combine both "Auto-Bite" and "Manual Bite" it will turn out like this:
If you hold down the "Alt-Fire" then the "Auto-Bite" will be active.
But if you just fast click the "Alt-Fire" then the "Auto-Bite" will be disabled and your free to "Manual Bite" as you wish.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Comments
If they really want to implement it, I hope there will be cl_autobite 0 option at least. I highly doubt I'd learn to like this one, even if it's advantageous.
You guys should have more faith in UWE. Every time they change something, you all complain like a bunch of babies. Why not try it out before saying how much you hate it. This is the same thing that happened with the taser and many other things.
but i dont like how leap is a 1st hive abilitiy
It just takes all the skill out of playing a skulk.
I bet the first custom mod to come out will be one to disable this, and all the servers will be using it (If there is no function to disable it in the default server options).
worst $40 i've ever spent
But this is very different from the taser situation. In Natural Selection 1, at our disposal we had both bite and leap, two separate moves. We knew how both moves worked and knew how to use them together in ways that were satisfying, skill based, and fun. We can use inductive reasoning with this update to realize that the removing of the separation of the two moves would, based on our Natural Selection 1 experiences, create a situation that is in no way satisfying, skill based, or fun.
The taser on the other hand was a completely foreign weapon that had no bearings to the way Natural Selection 1 worked at all. And as such, my response was, "this needs to be seen in game."
But in regards to autobite: I'm easily and completely backing homicide on this issue.
I agree with this too, but your first post is the one that should matter to the devs. At all other periods of the game, you have to click the mouse to bite, but at the end of a leap, wait, don't do it! That's the opposite of intuitive and simple. If they want to make the game more accessible, this isn't the thing to change.
Someone else above mentioned increasing leap damage, which seems fine to me. As long as it isn't an auto attack.
However, I think this ability should be toggled on or off. This would basically appease the community.
I'm interested in playing NS2, not NS on a different engine.
Exactly.
If you look at the bite at the end as just extra damage to the leap then it is no different. And who ses you cant still bite straight after or right before the auto-bite?
I really dont see this as a problem in any way.
Sigh...
If they had just said "leap does damage now" I doubt any of this would have happened.
edit:
<!--quoteo(post=1733109:date=Oct 21 2009, 12:28 AM:name=ChocoZuma)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ChocoZuma @ Oct 21 2009, 12:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733109"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you look at the bite at the end as just extra damage to the leap then it is no different.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
lol jynx
But you must be blind not to see that this is just taking all the skill out of the abilities?
I want to play a game where you can tell the diffrence between a seasoned player and a newbie just from simple executions of certain abilities.
This is just easymode, and is catering to the people who have no motivation to improve there gaming skills because they just suck all together.
Let's face it, good players try not to touch the marine, while leap-biting, so they can fly-by and are harder to hit.
So this will only be useful for new players that aren't familar with the ns1 skulk, thus make it an option.
(Of course, they might have nerfed leap so much as hive1-ability that you can barely fly-by, next outrage incoming :D)
I think, if you force this on good players, you'll just frustrate them. For example, there are probably situations where you might wanna leap twice and don't plan on touching a marine (group-fights in a rather narrow enviroment) and the unmeant bite screws you.
That argument is getting old.
It's not like NS2 will be similar anyway as long as we've got power grid, alien commander, new movement physics, new tech trees, an engine designed for RTS/FPS, changes in squad mechanics, changes in alien teching mechanic and different res model for aliens. I can't think of many sequels that have changed as many core elements as dramatically.
In addition, a lot of those are changes that I can agree. They address a lot of issues that NS had, but couldn't be fixed without big rework. Things like bite timing on the other hand seem quite irrelevant for me as the challenges of bite usage have never been there. I'd rather have the dev team focusing something else. I wouldn't categorize it on "Do we want to get this done before the alpha release?" features at least.
AND the feature could be disabled - what would you think?
I think the bite is OK. It's not going to change much and its not that exciting, but its news and thats good to hear.
Yeap. but it does help alot of you have seen it in action.. you know. Really makes no sense to say, oh wait this thing is gonna take away timing on biting on a leap in a game that i havn't played or seen any gameplay of except for small reveal videos which actually dont show much about the gameplay at all. what if leap is just a small leap say 2-3 metres forward?Timing your bite then would be meh, more of the skill would actually be leaping at the enemy.
yea i do flame/troll you abit homicide ive been grumpy lately
So i see from your side, you dont want any of the skill factor taken away yea? but thats not possible if UWE are really taking an approach to simplify the game for new people.
Now i don't want all of the skill factor gone but i dont like it how people just shoot down an idea before they see it.
<!--quoteo(post=1733119:date=Oct 21 2009, 06:04 PM:name=whoppaXXL)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (whoppaXXL @ Oct 21 2009, 06:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733119"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So, if the Dev's would not use the word "bite" but "Skulk Headnut at the end of Leap that do extra damage" (with extra animation)
AND the feature could be disabled - what would you think?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i'd think hell yea? would change a lot of opinions
let the alpha begin, so u can flame it ;)
edit: skulk headnut! I love it!
Especially once they gave us +movement, it became even easier. fastswapping in the olde days was seriously high skill.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Okay i might sound stupid asking this but: What's this +movement i keep reading all over the place?
I've been out of the NS loop for some years and i just used fastswapping as i do today. So what does +movement do?
On autobit: Hard to judge as long as we don't know how the new leap works, but i have to say it doesn't really convince me. Especially if we allready have leap as an alt-fire for bite, this allready makes it way easier than current fastswapping. But adding autobite? Maybe that's a little bit too much.
If you hold down the "Alt-Fire" then the "Auto-Bite" will be active.
But if you just fast click the "Alt-Fire" then the "Auto-Bite" will be disabled and your free to "Manual Bite" as you wish.
edit: skulk headnut! I love it!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The simplification is so minute it's irrelevant for me at least. However, I've got a few doubts otherwise.
I'd consider the leap bite timing such a small part of the skulking challenge that it feels unnecessary to adress it in particular. Automating it might just create wrong kind of feedback to people as they think they are doing things right, while the automated execution is far from optimal. In addition many people prefer to do biting manually, so there will most likely be a need for cl_automatedbite option. That on the other hand adds a rather unnecessary need-to-know variable to the game.
It's still their call of course, but without knowing more it seems a little weird solution.
I'd consider the leap bite timing such a small part of the skulking challenge that it feels unnecessary to adress it in particular. Automating it might just create wrong kind of feedback to people as they think they are doing things right, while the automated execution is far from optimal. In addition many people prefer to do biting manually, so there will most likely be a need for cl_automatedbite option. That on the other hand adds a rather unnecessary need-to-know variable to the game.
It's still their call of course, but without knowing more it seems a little weird solution.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe the way to go would be as I mention the post above.
Of course I dk all the other gameplay aspects, changes and so on, but from what I know... thumbs down :(
Not such a big deal though.
If you hold down the "Alt-Fire" then the "Auto-Bite" will be active.
But if you just fast click the "Alt-Fire" then the "Auto-Bite" will be disabled and your free to "Manual Bite" as you wish.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bosh, simple solution.