<!--quoteo(post=1729972:date=Oct 1 2009, 11:39 PM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (locallyunscene @ Oct 1 2009, 11:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1729972"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->However I'd like to point out that this thread is still a gross overreaction.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Overreactions in general forum?! No way!
<!--quoteo(post=1729962:date=Oct 1 2009, 10:28 AM:name=dux)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dux @ Oct 1 2009, 10:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1729962"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I disagree. A lot of important kills comes from thought. Especially when it's a fade or lerk. You will kill those two lifeforms far more often through thought than twitch. If you've never seen any benefit from this I'm assuming you only play public's? It really matters in competitive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes I only play public in any game, because 90% of any good game will be public, I can't stand clans or other nonesense, too much drama and no fun.
<!--quoteo(post=1729969:date=Oct 1 2009, 01:07 PM:name=Kiopaen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kiopaen @ Oct 1 2009, 01:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1729969"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Crits are an interesting mechanic in TF2 because they encourage the better players to pursue unscathed victories rather than relying on the med packs found around the levels. They add an element of overpower to new players, keep mid level players from long kill streaks, and keep the best players from always assaulting head on to achieve their goals. They're a good mechanic, but they certainly do not prevent "the really good players from having fun."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I didn't say that, I said they prevent ONLY the really good players having fun, as in they make it possible for anyone to get a kill streak, rather than only very good players who can outclass everyone else.
A game based entirely around skill will be no fun for most people, because you'll have a few people on any given server killing everyone else and the rest of the players will become background noise, you need to cap the skill element, NS1 does a really terrible job of this because 1 fade can kill just about anything, becuase it can move slightly faster than the framerate and kill a basic marine in two hits. It renders the game unplayable for anybody else on the server.
<!--quoteo(post=1730023:date=Oct 1 2009, 01:35 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Oct 1 2009, 01:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1730023"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes I only play public in any game, because 90% of any good game will be public, I can't stand clans or other nonesense, too much drama and no fun.
I didn't say that, I said they prevent ONLY the really good players having fun, as in they make it possible for anyone to get a kill streak, rather than only very good players who can outclass everyone else.
A game based entirely around skill will be no fun for most people, because you'll have a few people on any given server killing everyone else and the rest of the players will become background noise, you need to cap the skill element, NS1 does a really terrible job of this because 1 fade can kill just about anything, becuase it can move slightly faster than the framerate and kill a basic marine in two hits. It renders the game unplayable for anybody else on the server.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I might lose out on your INCREDIBLY insightful posts!
Can I get a quick roll call for those of you who think fades are overpowered and that believe in a design philosophy that "makes sure to limit the skill" of players?
This is as good a time to populate my ignore list as any.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->you need to cap the skill element<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
edited October 2009
<!--quoteo(post=1730069:date=Oct 1 2009, 04:49 PM:name=Opprobrious)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Opprobrious @ Oct 1 2009, 04:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1730069"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->People actually rushed to defend his post.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think he did have a good post earlier which was dismissed becuase of his other statements. You'll notice no ones rushing to defend those statements.
<!--quoteo(post=1730023:date=Oct 1 2009, 01:35 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Oct 1 2009, 01:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1730023"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes I only play public in any game, because 90% of any good game will be public, I can't stand clans or other nonesense, too much drama and no fun.
I didn't say that, I said they prevent ONLY the really good players having fun, as in they make it possible for anyone to get a kill streak, rather than only very good players who can outclass everyone else.
A game based entirely around skill will be no fun for most people, because you'll have a few people on any given server killing everyone else and the rest of the players will become background noise, you need to cap the skill element, NS1 does a really terrible job of this because 1 fade can kill just about anything, becuase it can move slightly faster than the framerate and kill a basic marine in two hits. It renders the game unplayable for anybody else on the server.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Been reading through this thread and i fully agree with Homicide and Mu (among others). I appreciate their experience when it comes to not only competitive play but public play as well. Cant tell you how fun it is to get a "named" player (who actually uses his REAL name... hate you smurfs!) in the same server and play against them (downing an Exi first string fade or taking out that marine with a 14-0 score). I found the only way to get better was by being beaten to a pulp. I will never play a game that takes into account players suck... I love NS because you can be very good as an alien, say the best fade in the world, and this get owned during game play due to lack of team work. Two marines with lv 3 shotguns can take down a crafty fade. Vice verse one fade can stop a sloppy marine platoon by hit and run tactics.
Don't cater to new players, there would be no room to grow... have ways for the new player to get better and get on the same level as those 10:1 ratio bad asses.
<!--quoteo(post=1729881:date=Sep 30 2009, 05:35 PM:name=homicide)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (homicide @ Sep 30 2009, 05:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1729881"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What he missed was the difference between micro level combat and macro level strategy.
Micro level combat (jumping, aiming, dodging, blocking, flying, blinking, leaping, bhopping, knockback, etc) is easily separated from macro level strategy (situational awareness, map control, res control, flanking, ambushing, team coordination, etc). NS1's greatest achievement was merging great micro combat with great macro strategy. This is THE signature of Natural Selection and it needs to remain the THE signature of Natural Selection 2.
Most combat in NS1 is based around fast marines shooting and dodging faster aliens. The exception is the Onos, who just barrels straight for marines; it's bad gameplay. Granted...the Onos adds strategy to the game, but it destroys the micro level combat. The only reason the Onos gets away with this is because it plays a support role and the cost keeps their numbers limited. If the exo-skeleton also plays a support role that is limited to only a few players, it might be acceptable to sacrifice their micro gameplay in order to increase the game's overall strategic depth. The LAST thing we want are exo-trains that kill the combat system even more than HA in NS1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't agree with you usually, but I agree entirely with this.
Lockdown basically turns a marine into a turret. If you are going to have a immobile machine gun, why waste a player's time with it?
<!--quoteo(post=1729744:date=Sep 30 2009, 06:12 AM:name=Tha)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tha @ Sep 30 2009, 06:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1729744"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->...,New people entered the game, got wtf pwnt in 5 seconds, flamed by thier commander for not putting down mines, devoured by onos, only those who wished to stay through the rapefest actually liked ns after they grasped it,<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ah, memories.
<!--quoteo(post=1730087:date=Oct 2 2009, 07:52 AM:name=Sirot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sirot @ Oct 2 2009, 07:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1730087"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Lockdown basically turns a marine into a turret. If you are going to have a immobile machine gun, why waste a player's time with it?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What? Where does it say that? The damn twitter doesn't even MENTION movement speed. It could INCREASE your movement speed for all we know. We have barely ANY information on this thing other that it improves your accuracy, all other assumptions are based on its CONCEPT name. So chill out and wait for some new info.
God so many of you people are too quick to judge, its very sad. Stop making so many negative assumptions off such little information.
<!--quoteo(post=1730121:date=Oct 1 2009, 10:00 PM:name=TempesT487)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TempesT487 @ Oct 1 2009, 10:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1730121"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What? Where does it say that? The damn twitter doesn't even MENTION movement speed. It could INCREASE your movement speed for all we know. We have barely ANY information on this thing other that it improves your accuracy, all other assumptions are based on its CONCEPT name. So chill out and wait for some new info.
God so many of you people are too quick to judge, its very sad. Stop making so many negative assumptions off such little information.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"Working with Cory to help design a 'lockdown' mode for the heavy/exoskeleton (lower recoil but must fire in one general direction)."
If you are stuck at looking in one general direction in "lockdown" mode, there are two possibilities: 1. You cannot move. 2. You can only move in that direction.
If bullet 2 is the reality, the heavy in lockdown mode makes into an actual train if you figure in your hypothetical movement speed increase.
I think you are focusing too much onto one aspect of NS1 that you liked and are blowing things out of proportion. If indeed things are as you say and NS2 is going to be a bit slowed down on the twitch side in favor of more strategy and teamwork. Then I'm all for it and I think it will make more accessible and more fun.
As much as I love NS. I must say that I find it frustrating just how difficult it can be to play vs a really good fade or jetpacker. And then turning the coin and just how quickly I'll die as a fade or a jetpacker. This lead to me using these techs less often since I don't have the time to become a master fade and don't want to waste res. Therefore I get wary of playing gorge all the time. Therefore I hope that in NS2 I'll be able to play as different classes as a medium skill player without that much danger of me wasting so many good res. Less twitch more brain is better for me.
Specifically on the Heavy Armor thing then I worry that it may not seem like a particularly interesting feature. I mean how inaccurate must the minigun be so that you'd need you focus you thick river of bullets better. This being an indoor corridor shooter I don't see minigun accuracy as being a particularly strong point of interest.
However I still need lots more info about this before offering any strong critique. For now I'm just a bit confused.
<!--quoteo(post=1729739:date=Sep 30 2009, 12:15 AM:name=homicide)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (homicide @ Sep 30 2009, 12:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1729739"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->.... Do not ignore the great movement micro in NS1, it is the BACKBONE of the entire combat system. Implementing a suit that makes marines immobile breaks the core of the great ranged vs melee combat found in NS1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> 1) I though micro was an RTS thing. Since when are people using micro to talk about FPS gameplay? I didn't get that memo. 2) Good thing there not implementing that suit in NS1 then.
<!--quoteo(post=1730084:date=Oct 1 2009, 09:43 PM:name=RisingSun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RisingSun @ Oct 1 2009, 09:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1730084"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Been reading through this thread and i fully agree with Homicide and Mu (among others). I appreciate their experience when it comes to not only competitive play but public play as well. Cant tell you how fun it is to get a "named" player (who actually uses his REAL name... hate you smurfs!) in the same server and play against them (downing an Exi first string fade or taking out that marine with a 14-0 score). I found the only way to get better was by being beaten to a pulp. I will never play a game that takes into account players suck... I love NS because you can be very good as an alien, say the best fade in the world, and this get owned during game play due to lack of team work. Two marines with lv 3 shotguns can take down a crafty fade. Vice verse one fade can stop a sloppy marine platoon by hit and run tactics.
Don't cater to new players, there would be no room to grow... have ways for the new player to get better and get on the same level as those 10:1 ratio bad asses.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can't say I pay attention to the scoreboard or care who I'm fighting, or know what an 'exi first string fade' is. Also I don't think I've ever seen a commander use something other than jetpacks and HMGs much to my chagrin, as I find shotguns far more entertaining.
I don't feel a compulsion to be good at a game, it's a game, it doesn't matter whether I'm good at it, I just want something entertaining, I don't want to have to spend weeks perfecting my play in order to enjoy it, that's not rewarding, it's wasteful, I could be spending the time playing a game I enjoy from the start.
<!--quoteo(post=1730150:date=Oct 2 2009, 05:56 AM:name=NeoSniper)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NeoSniper @ Oct 2 2009, 05:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1730150"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As much as I love NS. I must say that I find it frustrating just how difficult it can be to play vs a really good fade or jetpacker. And then turning the coin and just how quickly I'll die as a fade or a jetpacker. This lead to me using these techs less often since I don't have the time to become a master fade and don't want to waste res. Therefore I get wary of playing gorge all the time. Therefore I hope that in NS2 I'll be able to play as different classes as a medium skill player without that much danger of me wasting so many good res. Less twitch more brain is better for me.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I also find it very annoying to be instantly killed by something I can hardly see, let alone shoot.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As much as I love NS. I must say that I find it frustrating just how difficult it can be to play vs a really good fade or jetpacker. And then turning the coin and just how quickly I'll die as a fade or a jetpacker. This lead to me using these techs less often since I don't have the time to become a master fade and don't want to waste res. Therefore I get wary of playing gorge all the time. Therefore I hope that in NS2 I'll be able to play as different classes as a medium skill player without that much danger of me wasting so many good res. Less twitch more brain is better for me.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Without going into any details, I'd have to say this isn't a problem with the game. It's a problem with you not having anywhere to play without running into the Ronaldo's of NS. Or WC dart throwers or snooker players if you feel the need to nag how you can't compare NS to the greatest sports. Hell, you'd get creamed in throught-only sports too, like chess, if you had to play against a decent player. Even trivial pursuit rewards players knowing more over those knowing less.
And to chris: <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I also find it very annoying to be instantly killed by something I can hardly see, let alone shoot.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1730170:date=Oct 2 2009, 08:50 AM:name=tjosan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tjosan @ Oct 2 2009, 08:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1730170"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Without going into any details, I'd have to say this isn't a problem with the game. It's a problem with you not having anywhere to play without running into the Ronaldo's of NS. Or WC dart throwers or snooker players if you feel the need to nag how you can't compare NS to the greatest sports. Hell, you'd get creamed in throught-only sports too, like chess, if you had to play against a decent player. Even trivial pursuit rewards players knowing more over those knowing less.
And to chris:
I agree, cloaking is a failed mechanic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wasn't talking about cloaking, cloaking is actually sort of cool, having rooms of structures phasing in and out looks really cool and it does suit some lifeforms, although shoving your head up the arse of an onos without realising it is a bit unpleasant.
I was actually talking about fades moving faster than light through dark rooms. Granted a lot of fades won't be doing that, but it is possible, and it really sucks.
I also think it is partly an issue with the game because the game places such huge emphasis on twitch skill, the more ways there are to be good at the game the less likely you are to get owned unavoidably. Writing you off because you don't have twitch skills limits the number and sort of players who are going to be able to play well.
<!--quoteo(post=1730142:date=Oct 2 2009, 03:02 PM:name=Sirot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sirot @ Oct 2 2009, 03:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1730142"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"Working with Cory to help design a 'lockdown' mode for the heavy/exoskeleton (lower recoil but must fire in one general direction)."
If you are stuck at looking in one general direction in "lockdown" mode, there are two possibilities: 1. You cannot move. 2. You can only move in that direction.
If bullet 2 is the reality, the heavy in lockdown mode makes into an actual train if you figure in your hypothetical movement speed increase.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No. There are not only two possibilites from what has been said in the tweet.
Perhaps lockdown mode will only work for a short amount of time. Perhaps lockdown mode takes a long time to re-use. Perhaps players can still strafe in lockdown mode. Perhaps lockdown mode provides an approximate 90 degree arc where you can still move within the parameters, only you can't turn around. Perhaps lockdown mode gives every marine a 900 round nuclear bazooka that kills everything on the map with 1 shot.
The point is we don't have enough information to be so critical. I find it disrespectful that whenever a fresh idea is produced from the developers, there is a thread created immediately claiming it as game-breaking and that it should not be developed. We don't know anything about this new idea apart from the tiny morsel of information they gave us, and negative assumptions are thrown widly from it. When we have more information on this mode, and how it functions in relation to other abilities on both Marine and Alien sides, then it is the time for constructive criticism. Until then, people need to stop fearing the worst out of all these ideas and accept that we will have to wait and see what they are like.
<!--quoteo(post=1730174:date=Oct 2 2009, 09:12 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Oct 2 2009, 09:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1730174"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I wasn't talking about cloaking, cloaking is actually sort of cool, having rooms of structures phasing in and out looks really cool and it does suit some lifeforms, although shoving your head up the arse of an onos without realising it is a bit unpleasant. I was actually talking about fades moving faster than light through dark rooms. Granted a lot of fades won't be doing that, but it is possible, and it really sucks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wait let me get this right; you don’t mind dying to a cloaked skulk, but dying to a player using actual skill sucks?? Not to sound like a jerk, but many of your post makes me wonder why you even play NS?
The main reason people kept/keep playing NS is the extremely high skill ceiling.
<!--quoteo(post=1730189:date=Oct 2 2009, 09:11 AM:name=TempesT487)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TempesT487 @ Oct 2 2009, 09:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1730189"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No. There are not only two possibilites from what has been said in the tweet.
Perhaps lockdown mode will only work for a short amount of time. Perhaps lockdown mode takes a long time to re-use. Perhaps players can still strafe in lockdown mode. Perhaps lockdown mode provides an approximate 90 degree arc where you can still move within the parameters, only you can't turn around. Perhaps lockdown mode gives every marine a 900 round nuclear bazooka that kills everything on the map with 1 shot.
The point is we don't have enough information to be so critical. I find it disrespectful that whenever a fresh idea is produced from the developers, there is a thread created immediately claiming it as game-breaking and that it should not be developed. We don't know anything about this new idea apart from the tiny morsel of information they gave us, and negative assumptions are thrown widly from it. When we have more information on this mode, and how it functions in relation to other abilities on both Marine and Alien sides, then it is the time for constructive criticism. Until then, people need to stop fearing the worst out of all these ideas and accept that we will have to wait and see what they are like.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am usually the first to defend ideas, sometimes to the annoyance of other forum members. This is just an iffy idea.
I am basing it around an already existing example of such a mode/weapon. The lockdown mode is very similar to the Heavy's mini-gun in TF2. It is a very high DPS weapon that requires you spin up the chambers before firing. You can keep the chambers spinning by holding the alt-fire button. While they are spinning, the heavy's movement and turn speed are significantly slowed. So this is a equivalent of the lockdown idea but with less restrictions, it even uses miniguns (can aim anywhere you want).
Generally, I don't play the Heavy unless I want to relax, otherwise I don't find it an interesting class at all (others do, it is entirely subjective). I play it when I am eating a sandwich or on the phone. I wouldn't mind that kind of experience in NS2 if Heavy Armor wasn't late-tier tech and cost resources.
EDIT: I will admit that lockdown being a limited time effect with a cooldown is sort of intriguing though.
<!--quoteo(post=1730192:date=Oct 2 2009, 08:20 AM:name=Space_Cowboy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Space_Cowboy @ Oct 2 2009, 08:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1730192"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wait let me get this right; you don’t mind dying to a cloaked skulk, but dying to a player using actual skill sucks?? Not to sound like a jerk, but many of your post makes me wonder why you even play NS?
The main reason people kept/keep playing NS is the extremely high skill ceiling.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are surprised?
A large portion of this forum is dedicated to eliminating every aspect of NS1 that they were never any good at.
Their primary objective is to lower the maximum skill level until THEY can reach it. Any hint of players that can play at a higher level than they are capable of MUST BE PURGED!
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1730249:date=Oct 2 2009, 02:32 PM:name=Opprobrious)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Opprobrious @ Oct 2 2009, 02:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1730249"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You are surprised?
A large portion of this forum is dedicated to eliminating every aspect of NS1 that they were never any good at.
Their primary objective is to lower the maximum skill level until THEY can reach it. Any hint of players that can play at a higher level than they are capable of MUST BE PURGED!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I wouldn't call a one or two of the recently active members "a large portion".
Your "us against them" mentality is just as mistaken as theirs is.
<!--quoteo(post=1730249:date=Oct 2 2009, 02:32 PM:name=Opprobrious)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Opprobrious @ Oct 2 2009, 02:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1730249"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You are surprised?
A large portion of this forum is dedicated to eliminating every aspect of NS1 that they were never any good at.
Their primary objective is to lower the maximum skill level until THEY can reach it. Any hint of players that can play at a higher level than they are capable of MUST BE PURGED!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is so much hyperbole here that it can be put in a jar and sold as a jam to put on my toast.
Like, locallyunscene said, you are exaggerating two people as the majority here. Though the fade comment was weird, it is in no way representative of the majority of people here.
It's not about thinking and fighting as separate actions... it's about making fighting into 2nd nature so that you can do both at the same time. It's like driving and thinking about where you're going, at some point you learn to do them at the same time.
<!--quoteo(post=1730249:date=Mar 10 1973, 02:32 PM:name=Opprobrious)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Opprobrious @ Mar 10 1973, 02:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1730249"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You are surprised?
A large portion of this forum is dedicated to eliminating every aspect of NS1 that they were never any good at.
Their primary objective is to lower the maximum skill level until THEY can reach it. Any hint of players that can play at a higher level than they are capable of MUST BE PURGED!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--coloro:grey--><span style="color:grey"><!--/coloro-->Be careful of the reverse: "I can deal with it, no need to change anything." There are obviously many issues with the way NS plays out, don't dismiss them because they don't always bother you, personally, a lot.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--quoteo(post=1730192:date=Oct 2 2009, 01:20 PM:name=Space_Cowboy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Space_Cowboy @ Oct 2 2009, 01:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1730192"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wait let me get this right; you don’t mind dying to a cloaked skulk, but dying to a player using actual skill sucks?? Not to sound like a jerk, but many of your post makes me wonder why you even play NS?
The main reason people kept/keep playing NS is the extremely high skill ceiling.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, I do mind dying to cloaked enemies, I mind every time I die because it gets in the way of playing, my point is that it does somewhat make sense.
Ideally I would like for skulks and maybe lerks to be able to hide simply by using camoflage and darkness, and for them to be spotted by the marines if they search carefully, but if I can't have that then giving them the ability to hide with cloaking at least allows for people to rely less on twitch skills and more on watching the enemy and waiting for them to drop their guard, it adds a new mode of play.
On some lifeforms it is silly, like onoses, and probably fades because fades are possibly a bit too lethal, although you could rework them I guess to remove some of their damage and maybe change blink to something other than a rocket pack, but small lifeforms which are kinda naturally suited to hiding anyway, it makes sense for them, and in theory you can do something about it because if I remember right you can actually see cloaked units very very faintly.
I played NS solely because I like the atmosphere of the game and the FPS of the marines, I hated playing aliens and I hated commanding.
Comments
Overreactions in general forum?! No way!
Yes I only play public in any game, because 90% of any good game will be public, I can't stand clans or other nonesense, too much drama and no fun.
<!--quoteo(post=1729969:date=Oct 1 2009, 01:07 PM:name=Kiopaen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kiopaen @ Oct 1 2009, 01:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1729969"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Crits are an interesting mechanic in TF2 because they encourage the better players to pursue unscathed victories rather than relying on the med packs found around the levels. They add an element of overpower to new players, keep mid level players from long kill streaks, and keep the best players from always assaulting head on to achieve their goals. They're a good mechanic, but they certainly do not prevent "the really good players from having fun."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I didn't say that, I said they prevent ONLY the really good players having fun, as in they make it possible for anyone to get a kill streak, rather than only very good players who can outclass everyone else.
A game based entirely around skill will be no fun for most people, because you'll have a few people on any given server killing everyone else and the rest of the players will become background noise, you need to cap the skill element, NS1 does a really terrible job of this because 1 fade can kill just about anything, becuase it can move slightly faster than the framerate and kill a basic marine in two hits. It renders the game unplayable for anybody else on the server.
I didn't say that, I said they prevent ONLY the really good players having fun, as in they make it possible for anyone to get a kill streak, rather than only very good players who can outclass everyone else.
A game based entirely around skill will be no fun for most people, because you'll have a few people on any given server killing everyone else and the rest of the players will become background noise, you need to cap the skill element, NS1 does a really terrible job of this because 1 fade can kill just about anything, becuase it can move slightly faster than the framerate and kill a basic marine in two hits. It renders the game unplayable for anybody else on the server.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Welcome to my ignore list.
While we're at it, welcome to mine too.
... if I can find the ###### thing...
In other news, wonderful weather we're having. Right?
~~Sickle~~
~~Sickle~~<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
OH NO!
I might lose out on your INCREDIBLY insightful posts!
Can I get a quick roll call for those of you who think fades are overpowered and that believe in a design philosophy that "makes sure to limit the skill" of players?
This is as good a time to populate my ignore list as any.
... the hell?
People actually rushed to defend his post.
I think he did have a good post earlier which was dismissed becuase of his other statements. You'll notice no ones rushing to defend those statements.
I didn't say that, I said they prevent ONLY the really good players having fun, as in they make it possible for anyone to get a kill streak, rather than only very good players who can outclass everyone else.
A game based entirely around skill will be no fun for most people, because you'll have a few people on any given server killing everyone else and the rest of the players will become background noise, you need to cap the skill element, NS1 does a really terrible job of this because 1 fade can kill just about anything, becuase it can move slightly faster than the framerate and kill a basic marine in two hits. It renders the game unplayable for anybody else on the server.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Been reading through this thread and i fully agree with Homicide and Mu (among others). I appreciate their experience when it comes to not only competitive play but public play as well. Cant tell you how fun it is to get a "named" player (who actually uses his REAL name... hate you smurfs!) in the same server and play against them (downing an Exi first string fade or taking out that marine with a 14-0 score). I found the only way to get better was by being beaten to a pulp. I will never play a game that takes into account players suck... I love NS because you can be very good as an alien, say the best fade in the world, and this get owned during game play due to lack of team work. Two marines with lv 3 shotguns can take down a crafty fade. Vice verse one fade can stop a sloppy marine platoon by hit and run tactics.
Don't cater to new players, there would be no room to grow... have ways for the new player to get better and get on the same level as those 10:1 ratio bad asses.
Micro level combat (jumping, aiming, dodging, blocking, flying, blinking, leaping, bhopping, knockback, etc) is easily separated from macro level strategy (situational awareness, map control, res control, flanking, ambushing, team coordination, etc). NS1's greatest achievement was merging great micro combat with great macro strategy. This is THE signature of Natural Selection and it needs to remain the THE signature of Natural Selection 2.
Most combat in NS1 is based around fast marines shooting and dodging faster aliens. The exception is the Onos, who just barrels straight for marines; it's bad gameplay. Granted...the Onos adds strategy to the game, but it destroys the micro level combat. The only reason the Onos gets away with this is because it plays a support role and the cost keeps their numbers limited. If the exo-skeleton also plays a support role that is limited to only a few players, it might be acceptable to sacrifice their micro gameplay in order to increase the game's overall strategic depth. The LAST thing we want are exo-trains that kill the combat system even more than HA in NS1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't agree with you usually, but I agree entirely with this.
Lockdown basically turns a marine into a turret. If you are going to have a immobile machine gun, why waste a player's time with it?
What? Where does it say that? The damn twitter doesn't even MENTION movement speed. It could INCREASE your movement speed for all we know.
We have barely ANY information on this thing other that it improves your accuracy, all other assumptions are based on its CONCEPT name. So chill out and wait for some new info.
God so many of you people are too quick to judge, its very sad. Stop making so many negative assumptions off such little information.
We have barely ANY information on this thing other that it improves your accuracy, all other assumptions are based on its CONCEPT name. So chill out and wait for some new info.
God so many of you people are too quick to judge, its very sad. Stop making so many negative assumptions off such little information.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"Working with Cory to help design a 'lockdown' mode for the heavy/exoskeleton (lower recoil but must fire in one general direction)."
If you are stuck at looking in one general direction in "lockdown" mode, there are two possibilities:
1. You cannot move.
2. You can only move in that direction.
If bullet 2 is the reality, the heavy in lockdown mode makes into an actual train if you figure in your hypothetical movement speed increase.
I think you are focusing too much onto one aspect of NS1 that you liked and are blowing things out of proportion. If indeed things are as you say and NS2 is going to be a bit slowed down on the twitch side in favor of more strategy and teamwork. Then I'm all for it and I think it will make more accessible and more fun.
As much as I love NS. I must say that I find it frustrating just how difficult it can be to play vs a really good fade or jetpacker. And then turning the coin and just how quickly I'll die as a fade or a jetpacker. This lead to me using these techs less often since I don't have the time to become a master fade and don't want to waste res. Therefore I get wary of playing gorge all the time. Therefore I hope that in NS2 I'll be able to play as different classes as a medium skill player without that much danger of me wasting so many good res. Less twitch more brain is better for me.
Specifically on the Heavy Armor thing then I worry that it may not seem like a particularly interesting feature. I mean how inaccurate must the minigun be so that you'd need you focus you thick river of bullets better. This being an indoor corridor shooter I don't see minigun accuracy as being a particularly strong point of interest.
However I still need lots more info about this before offering any strong critique. For now I'm just a bit confused.
<!--quoteo(post=1729739:date=Sep 30 2009, 12:15 AM:name=homicide)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (homicide @ Sep 30 2009, 12:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1729739"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->....
Do not ignore the great movement micro in NS1, it is the BACKBONE of the entire combat system. Implementing a suit that makes marines immobile breaks the core of the great ranged vs melee combat found in NS1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) I though micro was an RTS thing. Since when are people using micro to talk about FPS gameplay? I didn't get that memo.
2) Good thing there not implementing that suit in NS1 then.
Don't cater to new players, there would be no room to grow... have ways for the new player to get better and get on the same level as those 10:1 ratio bad asses.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can't say I pay attention to the scoreboard or care who I'm fighting, or know what an 'exi first string fade' is. Also I don't think I've ever seen a commander use something other than jetpacks and HMGs much to my chagrin, as I find shotguns far more entertaining.
I don't feel a compulsion to be good at a game, it's a game, it doesn't matter whether I'm good at it, I just want something entertaining, I don't want to have to spend weeks perfecting my play in order to enjoy it, that's not rewarding, it's wasteful, I could be spending the time playing a game I enjoy from the start.
<!--quoteo(post=1730150:date=Oct 2 2009, 05:56 AM:name=NeoSniper)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NeoSniper @ Oct 2 2009, 05:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1730150"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As much as I love NS. I must say that I find it frustrating just how difficult it can be to play vs a really good fade or jetpacker. And then turning the coin and just how quickly I'll die as a fade or a jetpacker. This lead to me using these techs less often since I don't have the time to become a master fade and don't want to waste res. Therefore I get wary of playing gorge all the time. Therefore I hope that in NS2 I'll be able to play as different classes as a medium skill player without that much danger of me wasting so many good res. Less twitch more brain is better for me.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I also find it very annoying to be instantly killed by something I can hardly see, let alone shoot.
Without going into any details, I'd have to say this isn't a problem with the game. It's a problem with you not having anywhere to play without running into the Ronaldo's of NS. Or WC dart throwers or snooker players if you feel the need to nag how you can't compare NS to the greatest sports. Hell, you'd get creamed in throught-only sports too, like chess, if you had to play against a decent player. Even trivial pursuit rewards players knowing more over those knowing less.
And to chris: <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I also find it very annoying to be instantly killed by something I can hardly see, let alone shoot.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree, cloaking is a failed mechanic.
And to chris:
I agree, cloaking is a failed mechanic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wasn't talking about cloaking, cloaking is actually sort of cool, having rooms of structures phasing in and out looks really cool and it does suit some lifeforms, although shoving your head up the arse of an onos without realising it is a bit unpleasant.
I was actually talking about fades moving faster than light through dark rooms. Granted a lot of fades won't be doing that, but it is possible, and it really sucks.
I also think it is partly an issue with the game because the game places such huge emphasis on twitch skill, the more ways there are to be good at the game the less likely you are to get owned unavoidably. Writing you off because you don't have twitch skills limits the number and sort of players who are going to be able to play well.
I'm sure I'll be able to spot it if you give me a hint.
If you are stuck at looking in one general direction in "lockdown" mode, there are two possibilities:
1. You cannot move.
2. You can only move in that direction.
If bullet 2 is the reality, the heavy in lockdown mode makes into an actual train if you figure in your hypothetical movement speed increase.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No. There are not only two possibilites from what has been said in the tweet.
Perhaps lockdown mode will only work for a short amount of time.
Perhaps lockdown mode takes a long time to re-use.
Perhaps players can still strafe in lockdown mode.
Perhaps lockdown mode provides an approximate 90 degree arc where you can still move within the parameters, only you can't turn around.
Perhaps lockdown mode gives every marine a 900 round nuclear bazooka that kills everything on the map with 1 shot.
The point is we don't have enough information to be so critical. I find it disrespectful that whenever a fresh idea is produced from the developers, there is a thread created immediately claiming it as game-breaking and that it should not be developed. We don't know anything about this new idea apart from the tiny morsel of information they gave us, and negative assumptions are thrown widly from it. When we have more information on this mode, and how it functions in relation to other abilities on both Marine and Alien sides, then it is the time for constructive criticism. Until then, people need to stop fearing the worst out of all these ideas and accept that we will have to wait and see what they are like.
I was actually talking about fades moving faster than light through dark rooms. Granted a lot of fades won't be doing that, but it is possible, and it really sucks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wait let me get this right; you don’t mind dying to a cloaked skulk, but dying to a player using actual skill sucks??
Not to sound like a jerk, but many of your post makes me wonder why you even play NS?
The main reason people kept/keep playing NS is the extremely high skill ceiling.
Perhaps lockdown mode will only work for a short amount of time.
Perhaps lockdown mode takes a long time to re-use.
Perhaps players can still strafe in lockdown mode.
Perhaps lockdown mode provides an approximate 90 degree arc where you can still move within the parameters, only you can't turn around.
Perhaps lockdown mode gives every marine a 900 round nuclear bazooka that kills everything on the map with 1 shot.
The point is we don't have enough information to be so critical. I find it disrespectful that whenever a fresh idea is produced from the developers, there is a thread created immediately claiming it as game-breaking and that it should not be developed. We don't know anything about this new idea apart from the tiny morsel of information they gave us, and negative assumptions are thrown widly from it. When we have more information on this mode, and how it functions in relation to other abilities on both Marine and Alien sides, then it is the time for constructive criticism. Until then, people need to stop fearing the worst out of all these ideas and accept that we will have to wait and see what they are like.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am usually the first to defend ideas, sometimes to the annoyance of other forum members. This is just an iffy idea.
I am basing it around an already existing example of such a mode/weapon. The lockdown mode is very similar to the Heavy's mini-gun in TF2. It is a very high DPS weapon that requires you spin up the chambers before firing. You can keep the chambers spinning by holding the alt-fire button. While they are spinning, the heavy's movement and turn speed are significantly slowed. So this is a equivalent of the lockdown idea but with less restrictions, it even uses miniguns (can aim anywhere you want).
Generally, I don't play the Heavy unless I want to relax, otherwise I don't find it an interesting class at all (others do, it is entirely subjective). I play it when I am eating a sandwich or on the phone. I wouldn't mind that kind of experience in NS2 if Heavy Armor wasn't late-tier tech and cost resources.
EDIT: I will admit that lockdown being a limited time effect with a cooldown is sort of intriguing though.
Not to sound like a jerk, but many of your post makes me wonder why you even play NS?
The main reason people kept/keep playing NS is the extremely high skill ceiling.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are surprised?
A large portion of this forum is dedicated to eliminating every aspect of NS1 that they were never any good at.
Their primary objective is to lower the maximum skill level until THEY can reach it. Any hint of players that can play at a higher level than they are capable of MUST BE PURGED!
A large portion of this forum is dedicated to eliminating every aspect of NS1 that they were never any good at.
Their primary objective is to lower the maximum skill level until THEY can reach it. Any hint of players that can play at a higher level than they are capable of MUST BE PURGED!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wouldn't call a one or two of the recently active members "a large portion".
Your "us against them" mentality is just as mistaken as theirs is.
A large portion of this forum is dedicated to eliminating every aspect of NS1 that they were never any good at.
Their primary objective is to lower the maximum skill level until THEY can reach it. Any hint of players that can play at a higher level than they are capable of MUST BE PURGED!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is so much hyperbole here that it can be put in a jar and sold as a jam to put on my toast.
Like, locallyunscene said, you are exaggerating two people as the majority here. Though the fade comment was weird, it is in no way representative of the majority of people here.
A large portion of this forum is dedicated to eliminating every aspect of NS1 that they were never any good at.
Their primary objective is to lower the maximum skill level until THEY can reach it. Any hint of players that can play at a higher level than they are capable of MUST BE PURGED!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--coloro:grey--><span style="color:grey"><!--/coloro-->Be careful of the reverse: "I can deal with it, no need to change anything." There are obviously many issues with the way NS plays out, don't dismiss them because they don't always bother you, personally, a lot.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
~~Sickle~~
Not to sound like a jerk, but many of your post makes me wonder why you even play NS?
The main reason people kept/keep playing NS is the extremely high skill ceiling.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, I do mind dying to cloaked enemies, I mind every time I die because it gets in the way of playing, my point is that it does somewhat make sense.
Ideally I would like for skulks and maybe lerks to be able to hide simply by using camoflage and darkness, and for them to be spotted by the marines if they search carefully, but if I can't have that then giving them the ability to hide with cloaking at least allows for people to rely less on twitch skills and more on watching the enemy and waiting for them to drop their guard, it adds a new mode of play.
On some lifeforms it is silly, like onoses, and probably fades because fades are possibly a bit too lethal, although you could rework them I guess to remove some of their damage and maybe change blink to something other than a rocket pack, but small lifeforms which are kinda naturally suited to hiding anyway, it makes sense for them, and in theory you can do something about it because if I remember right you can actually see cloaked units very very faintly.
I played NS solely because I like the atmosphere of the game and the FPS of the marines, I hated playing aliens and I hated commanding.