<!--quoteo(post=1729781:date=Sep 30 2009, 06:24 AM:name=Shockwave)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shockwave @ Sep 30 2009, 06:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1729781"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One obvious question / comment that springs to my mind:
With the Heavy being described more as an 'exoskeleton', does it become a straight upgrade (as it really is now, a Heavy is generally better than a Light) or does it become an alternative? I'd agree with the message the OP is trying to put across (I'm not totally down with the delivery) but we need to realise that it may, in NS2, be a design choice to intentionally *not* upgrade all your Marines. If there are significant drawbacks to having the entire team as Heavy (or Jetpack, whatever, the exact upgrade is irrelevant) then making them function in a more sedentary way might be a good thing. They represent in RTS terms a more defensive unit, that cost you offense.
A little rambling (typing from work), but I'm hoping the point comes across.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You, sir, have just won this thread! Congratulations on being the sole voice of reason in a babbling cacaphony of inane drivel! You may pick up your check/cookie/bj (as per your choice) at any certified Internet Reason outlet in your area.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
edited September 2009
<!--quoteo(post=1729781:date=Sep 30 2009, 07:24 AM:name=Shockwave)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shockwave @ Sep 30 2009, 07:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1729781"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One obvious question / comment that springs to my mind:
With the Heavy being described more as an 'exoskeleton', does it become a straight upgrade (as it really is now, a Heavy is generally better than a Light) or does it become an alternative? I'd agree with the message the OP is trying to put across (I'm not totally down with the delivery) but we need to realise that it may, in NS2, be a design choice to intentionally *not* upgrade all your Marines. If there are significant drawbacks to having the entire team as Heavy (or Jetpack, whatever, the exact upgrade is irrelevant) then making them function in a more sedentary way might be a good thing. They represent in RTS terms a more defensive unit, that cost you offense.
A little rambling (typing from work), but I'm hoping the point comes across.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Agreed, the OP is reacting as if every marine has lockdown mode once he starts firing. If you don't think the benefit of accuracy is worth the loss of movement then don't use the ability. Or better yet, just buy a jetpack. Heavies are not known for their maneuverability anyway; this is only reinforcing the heavy's playtyle of rewarding tactical movement plus straightforward teamwork.
<!--quoteo(post=1729731:date=Sep 29 2009, 10:01 PM:name=FuNiOnZ)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FuNiOnZ @ Sep 29 2009, 10:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1729731"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Fast paced gameplay didn't come into the picture until Combat mode showed up and ruined NS.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No, it has been there since the game was released.
1- May dual-wield all combos of weapons 2- MOUSE1 fires the left side weapon and MOUSE2 the right side one (by default of course) 3- Both weapons reload independently. You may fire one weapon while realoading the other one. 4- When wielding two weapons, you have 2 crosshairs on your screen. This means when looking forward you get to have them converging to the same spot, while when you´re turning around left, for instance, the left weapon crosshair reaches further into the left side of your screen, while the right one stays a little behind (idk if i managed to explain myself).
All this for gameplay sake... virtualy no damage to the learning curve and more skills for pros to practice on.
A Minigun on my right arm and Flamethrower on my left, please. You never know when the enemy will get too close. :P
<!--quoteo(post=1729791:date=Sep 30 2009, 10:28 AM:name=Rzr)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rzr @ Sep 30 2009, 10:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1729791"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1- May dual-wield all combos of weapons 2- MOUSE1 fires the left side weapon and MOUSE2 the right side one (by default of course) 3- Both weapons reload independently. You may fire one weapon while realoading the other one. 4- When wielding two weapons, you have 2 crosshairs on your screen. This means when looking forward you get to have them converging to the same spot, while when you´re turning around left, for instance, the left weapon crosshair reaches further into the left side of your screen, while the right one stays a little behind (idk if i managed to explain myself).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1.- No, the idea is to make it special, as an advantage for the exoskeleton. 2.- Could be, but how do you activate the lockdown mode? Remember that not all the people around the world use a 3 button (or more) mouse. 3.- Interesting thing, but when you reload one MG the other should be less accurate than in normal situation (you are doing something else distracting from the aim) 4.- I like it but some kind refined. Using the lockdown should make the crosshair stay always focus on one point for both guns, and not using it makes them slightly separated from the centre, making a black point where bullets don't hit, and when moving left or right it do what you have told.
This last could be hard to make but will help on the gameplay. For one side makes people use the lockdown, and in the other balance a little more the fight when an Skulk is facing a double MG marine. And more important, makes using a double MG more interesting.
1. I'm kinda thinking the miniguns should come with the suit, as permanent attachments, although I'd be okay with other heavy weapons being attachable as well (don't want light weapons though, would be silly to use a minigun on the right hand and only a pistol on the left (or other small gun))
2. lockdown can be a key on the keyboard, doesn't strike me as something that has to be on the mouse (esp. if it takes time to get set up)
3. would need separate reload keys to do this...reload should prevent firing for a short time as well (come on, you can't do 2 things at once)...I'm inclined to say reload should just handle both guns at the same time, though that could be hard to do if other guns are allowed. Miniguns would just need a new belt to be fed.
4. interesting, I kinda wanted a way to aim the guns at 2 targets and this may be a way to do it...it would make 2 cones of fire, and where they overlap in the middle does more damage. Also, if you aim too far to the left/right for one of the guns, it should not be able to fire (conserve ammo) maybe one crosshair vertical/horizontal and the other one on diagonals so you can easily tell them apart
"Working with Cory to help design a 'lockdown' mode for the heavy/exoskeleton (lower recoil but must fire in one general direction)" "(lower recoil but must fire in one general direction)" (<b>lower recoil</b>...)
There is going be RECOIL?!?! in NS2? Honestly, i am shocked, saddened, mad, everything you can imagine. I did not buy Counter Strike in Space...
<!--quoteo(post=1729725:date=Sep 29 2009, 10:31 PM:name=Atone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Atone @ Sep 29 2009, 10:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1729725"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Because then these forums would be dead and the developers would have no fan feedback on their updates.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not sure it's feedback when the fan doesn't know what he's talking about... It's more of "Person not in the know, making assumptions about a game, he hasn't played." which would only make me go "Just wait till you see it" if I was a developer.
<!--quoteo(post=1729739:date=Sep 30 2009, 05:15 AM:name=homicide)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (homicide @ Sep 30 2009, 05:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1729739"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It has been said many times:
Good melee vs ranged combat relies heavily on <b>micro level movement</b>. This means the ranged team needs to move FAST and the alien team needs to move FASTER. If the ranged team is SLOW/IMMOBILE while the melee team is FAST you end up with a clay-pidgin simulator. It TOTALLY destroys the micro level player interaction between enemies. It removes the player vs player movement counters that both sides employ to dodge or attack their enemy. Without micro level combat counters you remove the PLAYER aspect from the combat system.
Marines have 1 option: shoot the aliens Aliens have 1 option: bite the marine
This is BAD gameplay.
Do not ignore the great movement micro in NS1, it is the BACKBONE of the entire combat system. Implementing a suit that makes marines immobile breaks the core of the great ranged vs melee combat found in NS1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't see why it relies only on fast movement, if one player is fast and weak and the other is slow but powerful, it becomes a game of thought, the trick lies in outmaneuvering your enemy, or picking your attack direction, a skulk can wallwalk, fades can blink, lerks can fly, the whole alien team is geared towards being able to outflank the marines, and NS has lots of ways for the aliens to get around, so if you see a marine minigunning like mad in one direction, don't run into the bullets, think about it and find another route, and attack him from behind where he can't shoot you.
Think of left4dead, the trick for infected is not to be fast, but to be intelligent, you pick your time and attack when the enemy is distracted or when they are weak, the hunter and the boomer don't have ranged attacks, so they have to ambush the survivors, the smoker has a ranged attack but he needs to use it at the right time. That sort of thing is an ideal compliment to the aliens in NS.
Even if all those NS1 abilities aren't still in, we can assume they will be replaced with other abilites which allow the aliens to move freely. And of course there is always the possibility of dedicated anti-turtle abilities like the onos shield or umbra, or whatever.
I have to assume that UWE can think and they are obviously not going to make something that doesn't work. If there are problems we can be sure they'll fix them or they won't include the ideas that cause them, it's not in their interest to make a bad game.
<!--quoteo(post=1729873:date=Sep 30 2009, 08:27 PM:name=tjosan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tjosan @ Sep 30 2009, 08:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1729873"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I missed the point. (So I'll just post quarter of a sentence and be done with it.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fixed it for you.
Now find some life objectives and come back once you learn basic forum etiquette.
Also, ack. Backseat modding am I? Now look what you made me do...
On-topic then: Ee-recting a HA! Gorge/Lerk (anti-armour methods pending) is sapping mah Scent tree! AK1mb0 down!
And that's why there will be alpha and beta releases. If something don't work the way it has to, then you can change it. And as we are too many to taste the alpha (yap, I love to play alien) all this can be modified/corrected/changed before the final release.
There will be a lot of feedback. And the best part, there will be a lot of mods (like plugins now) that can implement/modify different things on the game. So, if some thing don't goes into the game, you can make it for yourself, or ask someone that knows how to do it.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1729873:date=Sep 30 2009, 04:27 PM:name=tjosan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tjosan @ Sep 30 2009, 04:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1729873"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You missed the point.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually I thought his comment was very insightful. He's noting that heavy armor has a different playstyle and describing how another game has used it effectively. I think you've missed the point with the assertion that every class has to be a fast arcade-y class.
What he missed was the difference between micro level combat and macro level strategy.
Micro level combat (jumping, aiming, dodging, blocking, flying, blinking, leaping, bhopping, knockback, etc) is easily separated from macro level strategy (situational awareness, map control, res control, flanking, ambushing, team coordination, etc). NS1's greatest achievement was merging great micro combat with great macro strategy. This is THE signature of Natural Selection and it needs to remain the THE signature of Natural Selection 2.
Most combat in NS1 is based around fast marines shooting and dodging faster aliens. The exception is the Onos, who just barrels straight for marines; it's bad gameplay. Granted...the Onos adds strategy to the game, but it destroys the micro level combat. The only reason the Onos gets away with this is because it plays a support role and the cost keeps their numbers limited. If the exo-skeleton also plays a support role that is limited to only a few players, it might be acceptable to sacrifice their micro gameplay in order to increase the game's overall strategic depth. The LAST thing we want are exo-trains that kill the combat system even more than HA in NS1.
<!--quoteo(post=1729881:date=Sep 30 2009, 09:35 PM:name=homicide)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (homicide @ Sep 30 2009, 09:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1729881"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What he missed was the difference between micro level combat and macro level strategy.
Micro level combat (jumping, aiming, dodging, blocking, flying, blinking, leaping, bhopping, knockback, etc) is easily separated from macro level strategy (situational awareness, map control, res control, flanking, ambushing, team coordination, etc). NS1's greatest achievement was merging great micro combat with great macro strategy. This is THE signature of Natural Selection and it needs to remain the THE signature of Natural Selection 2.
Most combat in NS1 is based around fast marines shooting and dodging faster aliens. The exception is the Onos, who just barrels straight for marines; it's bad gameplay. Granted...the Onos adds strategy to the game, but it destroys the micro level combat. The only reason the Onos gets away with this is because its mainly plays a support role and the cost keeps their numbers limited. If the exo-skeleton also plays a support role that is limited to only a few players, it might be acceptable to sacrifice their micro gameplay in order to increase the game's overall strategic depth. The LAST thing we want are exo-trains that kill the combat system even more than HA in NS1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Mhmm, homicide wins this thread. However, I don't think the "lockdown" mode should be outright trashed yet despite the strong points made against it. This is just another question among hundreds of others that wait until the Alpha is released to be answered.
To be honest I found NS to have very little of what you call macro-strategy, because it was entirely irrelevant if you didn't have excellent micro-combat skills, and if you had good combat skills the strategy part was pointless, because you can win a one on one most of the time anyway.
You could think about it all you liked and attack as cleverly as you wanted but if you didn't have the twitch abilities to match, you'd fail.
I'd like to see options which allow people to focus heavily on the twitch based out-reflexing your enemy, or alternatively on the more methodical approach where you benefit from out-thinking your enemy.
The heavy armor/weapon build would obviously have to have limitations, just as the onos needs to have limitations, no one player should be able to kill an entire enemy team no matter how skilled they are because you're trading the fun of an entire team for the fun of one person, it's doing more harm than good. This is partly why I dlslike mutliplayer games because they always involve one player doing the legwork for the player who kills him to enjoy the game. Singeplayer has the computer doing the boring job so the player can get the glory.
If you must have competitive gaming however, for the most part people should be k/ding at 1:1, because otherwise someone is going to feel like the butt-monkey of the universe, probably a lot of people actually. Of course you need to keep the high point of the kill streak which is why in games like TF2 people get semi-random critical streaks, this allows players who don't neccesarily outclass other players to still get a kill streak now and then, it feels rewarding and prevents only the really good players from having fun.
There is also the point that some things are just inherently fun, clunking around with a big gun shooting stuff is quite fun by itself, therefore you can make that be a high point, simply getting to use the big beefy gun and power armor can be the high point, even if it doesn't affect your K/D ratio much.
The way i'm envisaging exo-armour is an entire group of them would be downright stupid.
No welders ? Check. Long reload times on an entire group of marines ? Check. Slower then normal movement, slower then normal turning ? Check. Carries only weapons that have a spin up time ? Check. Large units that are gonna block each other's LoS ? Check. A simple group of skulks would cause problems, let alone anything else.
On the other hand...need a corridor locked down so anything short of an Onos is gonna get minced ? Voila, park an exo-armour at the end of it. Need that extra oomph to crack a hives defenses ? One order of exo-marines with a side order of normal armour marines providing support and welding coming right up.
Bottom line - we know next to nothing ATM, lets see how it gets implemented. Like Shockie said, in NS1 if you have the res you'd pretty much just gave everyone HA. If exo-armour is instead a tactical choice that changes how you use you 'rines then that sounds cool to me.
And bejessus, you get turned into a mini-dreadnought and carry two mini-guns. Thats awesomesauce.
PS. I reserve the right to call it crap once I see it in-game :P
a_civilianLikes seeing numbersJoin Date: 2003-01-08Member: 12041Members, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead
<!--quoteo(post=1729890:date=Sep 30 2009, 05:59 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Sep 30 2009, 05:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1729890"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->...and if you had good combat skills the strategy part was pointless, because you can win a one on one most of the time anyway.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's not true, at least not without the most extreme skill difference. Next time you see someone that seems to be dominating everyone by twitch skills, try watching him. I think you'll find that he also plays the strategy part better than you assumed.
You can still do the strategy thing if you want to but I never found it neccesary, I got kills because I could aim better than the skulks could bunnyhop, when I lost the ability to aim I couldn't kill anything, regardless of how much thought I put in.
I have never seen any benefit to thought when twitch is required to execute any thoughtful attack, because you're better off just being really good at twitch.
I disagree. A lot of important kills comes from thought. Especially when it's a fade or lerk. You will kill those two lifeforms far more often through thought than twitch. If you've never seen any benefit from this I'm assuming you only play public's? It really matters in competitive.
<!--quoteo(post=1729962:date=Oct 1 2009, 10:28 AM:name=dux)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dux @ Oct 1 2009, 10:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1729962"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I disagree. A lot of important kills comes from thought. Especially when it's a fade or lerk. You will kill those two lifeforms far more often through thought than twitch. If you've never seen any benefit from this I'm assuming you only play public's? It really matters in competitive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yep, you guys should watch <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-7jYC7P4dg" target="_blank">this video</a> from 30s to 1min10 for a great example of tactical movement and twitch skill and all that jazz (yeah, its nL but its the best one I can think of off the top of my head). It took place in finals of an ENSL season for reference AND it features dux doing what he does best (failing to get a kill :>).
It's the marine team using JP/HMGs to sandwich pretty much all of the aliens teams lifeforms, countering their attack on a locked down hive and pretty much causing the marines to take the round.
<!--quoteo(post=1729890:date=Sep 30 2009, 04:59 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Sep 30 2009, 04:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1729890"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To be honest I found NS to have very little of what you call macro-strategy, because it was entirely irrelevant if you didn't have excellent micro-combat skills, and if you had good combat skills the strategy part was pointless, because you can win a one on one most of the time anyway.
You could think about it all you liked and attack as cleverly as you wanted but if you didn't have the twitch abilities to match, you'd fail.
I'd like to see options which allow people to focus heavily on the twitch based out-reflexing your enemy, or alternatively on the more methodical approach where you benefit from out-thinking your enemy.
The heavy armor/weapon build would obviously have to have limitations, just as the onos needs to have limitations, no one player should be able to kill an entire enemy team no matter how skilled they are because you're trading the fun of an entire team for the fun of one person, it's doing more harm than good. This is partly why I dlslike mutliplayer games because they always involve one player doing the legwork for the player who kills him to enjoy the game. Singeplayer has the computer doing the boring job so the player can get the glory.
If you must have competitive gaming however, for the most part people should be k/ding at 1:1, because otherwise someone is going to feel like the butt-monkey of the universe, probably a lot of people actually. Of course you need to keep the high point of the kill streak which is why in games like TF2 people get semi-random critical streaks, this allows players who don't neccesarily outclass other players to still get a kill streak now and then, it feels rewarding and prevents only the really good players from having fun.
There is also the point that some things are just inherently fun, clunking around with a big gun shooting stuff is quite fun by itself, therefore you can make that be a high point, simply getting to use the big beefy gun and power armor can be the high point, even if it doesn't affect your K/D ratio much.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First off, as a soldier in TF2 getting 3:1 to 5:1 reliably on 2fort I find your claim a little bit noobish. On brand new maps I usually get about 2:1. There's a reason that those ratios are quite different and it has to do with knowing the terrain and the ins and outs of a map. This map advantage is even greater in NS because of the vents, the ability to build non-trivial bases, and the reliance that the aliens have on melee attacks which makes room configuration crucial to survival.
There's also more to that 2:1 ratio than twitching faster like knowing the other class's abilities, knowing your own abilities, knowing interesting relations between your classes (pyro-soldier for example), pack tactics, coaxing them to waste ammo before the real fight, and being able to dodge effectively.
Crits are an interesting mechanic in TF2 because they encourage the better players to pursue unscathed victories rather than relying on the med packs found around the levels. They add an element of overpower to new players, keep mid level players from long kill streaks, and keep the best players from always assaulting head on to achieve their goals. They're a good mechanic, but they certainly do not prevent "the really good players from having fun."
It's kinda nice to have a high k:d ratio for a while, but often players with them will start hunting for similarly skilled players to fight... sometimes this leads to making clans or just favoriting a particularly nasty server. The idea isn't that it's bad to have good players... the idea is to have things like crits that make noobs dangerous while keeping it from being exploited by seasoned players.
If you think that a 3:1 to 5:1 ratio on 2fort is unacceptable, perhaps you're underestimating your opponents. Some of us have been playing on 2fort for well over ten years. We've seen the strategies and counter strategies endless times.
As you said, you don't like multiplayer and if you have to stomach it you'd like to see a k:d of 1:1. This isn't rock-paper-scissors though. Keep working on your "micro skills" that you said were more important and once you have them down to instinct perhaps you'll see how the "macro skills" can completely change a battle. Please keep in mind that the marines have played as alien before and you shouldn't be surprised if they anticipating some basic "attack from behind" tricks.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
edited October 2009
<!--quoteo(post=1729881:date=Sep 30 2009, 05:35 PM:name=homicide)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (homicide @ Sep 30 2009, 05:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1729881"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What he missed was the difference between micro level combat and macro level strategy.
Micro level combat (jumping, aiming, dodging, blocking, flying, blinking, leaping, bhopping, knockback, etc) is easily separated from macro level strategy (situational awareness, map control, res control, flanking, ambushing, team coordination, etc). NS1's greatest achievement was merging great micro combat with great macro strategy. This is THE signature of Natural Selection and it needs to remain the THE signature of Natural Selection 2.
Most combat in NS1 is based around fast marines shooting and dodging faster aliens. The exception is the Onos, who just barrels straight for marines; it's bad gameplay. Granted...the Onos adds strategy to the game, but it destroys the micro level combat. The only reason the Onos gets away with this is because it plays a support role and the cost keeps their numbers limited. If the exo-skeleton also plays a support role that is limited to only a few players, it might be acceptable to sacrifice their micro gameplay in order to increase the game's overall strategic depth. The LAST thing we want are exo-trains that kill the combat system even more than HA in NS1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That makes sense and I appreciate you taking the time to state it so clearly.
However I'd like to point out that this thread is still a gross overreaction. I don't think exo's will kill competitive NS2 any more than heavies do now due to the inherent skill cap on micro combat for these classes. You still see fades and jps far more than onos and HA's for this reason. As long as the skill cap on jps and fades is much higher they will still be the preferred "better" classes in competitive play if not overall.
I'm also glad that you acknowledge that the onos and HA bring strategic depth to the game which a lot of posters have glossed over in the past because they didn't think the trade off was worth it.
<!--quoteo(post=1729965:date=Oct 1 2009, 07:08 AM:name=MuYeah)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MuYeah @ Oct 1 2009, 07:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1729965"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yep, you guys should watch <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-7jYC7P4dg" target="_blank">this video</a> from 30s to 1min10 for a great example of tactical movement and twitch skill and all that jazz (yeah, its nL but its the best one I can think of off the top of my head). It took place in finals of an ENSL season for reference AND it features dux doing what he does best (failing to get a kill :>).
It's the marine team using JP/HMGs to sandwich pretty much all of the aliens teams lifeforms, countering their attack on a locked down hive and pretty much causing the marines to take the round.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
lol I didn't even play in the final! Whenever I get good kills no one has a demo recording. Pff.
<!--coloro:grey--><span style="color:grey"><!--/coloro-->I figure increasing the cost of lockdown about 5% should do a ton to balance it out.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
~~Sickle~~
<!--coloro:grey--><span style="color:grey"><!--/coloro-->Also, Omega, I didn't really see any of the "twitch" skill in that video.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--quoteo(post=1729976:date=Oct 1 2009, 02:21 PM:name=briktal)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (briktal @ Oct 1 2009, 02:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1729976"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--coloro:grey--><span style="color:grey"><!--/coloro-->I figure increasing the cost of lockdown about 5% should do a ton to balance it out.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
~~Sickle~~
<!--coloro:grey--><span style="color:grey"><!--/coloro-->Also, Omega, I didn't really see any of the "twitch" skill in that video.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yeah, not particularly twitch skill but I rather meant "good players" as in mega aims all on its own doesnt cut it in real ns games with equal teams plus to be fair its in like 80% real speed, I swear! ;(
Anyway, my take on lockdown is that it could be implemented well as long as it can't be used every time the alien team makes a push for the whole duration the aliens are in your face. Basically, so you can't get a exo-suit and sit in a corner with dual miniguns and go into lockdown mode any time the aliens come near.
I very much like the idea of it when on offense with the restricted movement but it must come with quite a large downside for me to be comfortable with it being used defensively.
Comments
With the Heavy being described more as an 'exoskeleton', does it become a straight upgrade (as it really is now, a Heavy is generally better than a Light) or does it become an alternative? I'd agree with the message the OP is trying to put across (I'm not totally down with the delivery) but we need to realise that it may, in NS2, be a design choice to intentionally *not* upgrade all your Marines. If there are significant drawbacks to having the entire team as Heavy (or Jetpack, whatever, the exact upgrade is irrelevant) then making them function in a more sedentary way might be a good thing. They represent in RTS terms a more defensive unit, that cost you offense.
A little rambling (typing from work), but I'm hoping the point comes across.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You, sir, have just won this thread! Congratulations on being the sole voice of reason in a babbling cacaphony of inane drivel!
You may pick up your check/cookie/bj (as per your choice) at any certified Internet Reason outlet in your area.
With the Heavy being described more as an 'exoskeleton', does it become a straight upgrade (as it really is now, a Heavy is generally better than a Light) or does it become an alternative? I'd agree with the message the OP is trying to put across (I'm not totally down with the delivery) but we need to realise that it may, in NS2, be a design choice to intentionally *not* upgrade all your Marines. If there are significant drawbacks to having the entire team as Heavy (or Jetpack, whatever, the exact upgrade is irrelevant) then making them function in a more sedentary way might be a good thing. They represent in RTS terms a more defensive unit, that cost you offense.
A little rambling (typing from work), but I'm hoping the point comes across.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed, the OP is reacting as if every marine has lockdown mode once he starts firing. If you don't think the benefit of accuracy is worth the loss of movement then don't use the ability. Or better yet, just buy a jetpack. Heavies are not known for their maneuverability anyway; this is only reinforcing the heavy's playtyle of rewarding tactical movement plus straightforward teamwork.
No, it has been there since the game was released.
1- May dual-wield all combos of weapons
2- MOUSE1 fires the left side weapon and MOUSE2 the right side one (by default of course)
3- Both weapons reload independently. You may fire one weapon while realoading the other one.
4- When wielding two weapons, you have 2 crosshairs on your screen. This means when looking forward you get to have them converging to the same spot, while when you´re turning around left, for instance, the left weapon crosshair reaches further into the left side of your screen, while the right one stays a little behind (idk if i managed to explain myself).
All this for gameplay sake... virtualy no damage to the learning curve and more skills for pros to practice on.
A Minigun on my right arm and Flamethrower on my left, please. You never know when the enemy will get too close. :P
2- MOUSE1 fires the left side weapon and MOUSE2 the right side one (by default of course)
3- Both weapons reload independently. You may fire one weapon while realoading the other one.
4- When wielding two weapons, you have 2 crosshairs on your screen. This means when looking forward you get to have them converging to the same spot, while when you´re turning around left, for instance, the left weapon crosshair reaches further into the left side of your screen, while the right one stays a little behind (idk if i managed to explain myself).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1.- No, the idea is to make it special, as an advantage for the exoskeleton.
2.- Could be, but how do you activate the lockdown mode? Remember that not all the people around the world use a 3 button (or more) mouse.
3.- Interesting thing, but when you reload one MG the other should be less accurate than in normal situation (you are doing something else distracting from the aim)
4.- I like it but some kind refined. Using the lockdown should make the crosshair stay always focus on one point for both guns, and not using it makes them slightly separated from the centre, making a black point where bullets don't hit, and when moving left or right it do what you have told.
This last could be hard to make but will help on the gameplay. For one side makes people use the lockdown, and in the other balance a little more the fight when an Skulk is facing a double MG marine. And more important, makes using a double MG more interesting.
2. lockdown can be a key on the keyboard, doesn't strike me as something that has to be on the mouse (esp. if it takes time to get set up)
3. would need separate reload keys to do this...reload should prevent firing for a short time as well (come on, you can't do 2 things at once)...I'm inclined to say reload should just handle both guns at the same time, though that could be hard to do if other guns are allowed. Miniguns would just need a new belt to be fed.
4. interesting, I kinda wanted a way to aim the guns at 2 targets and this may be a way to do it...it would make 2 cones of fire, and where they overlap in the middle does more damage. Also, if you aim too far to the left/right for one of the guns, it should not be able to fire (conserve ammo)
maybe one crosshair vertical/horizontal and the other one on diagonals so you can easily tell them apart
"(lower recoil but must fire in one general direction)"
(<b>lower recoil</b>...)
There is going be RECOIL?!?! in NS2? Honestly, i am shocked, saddened, mad, everything you can imagine. I did not buy Counter Strike in Space...
I'm not sure it's feedback when the fan doesn't know what he's talking about... It's more of "Person not in the know, making assumptions about a game, he hasn't played." which would only make me go "Just wait till you see it" if I was a developer.
Good melee vs ranged combat relies heavily on <b>micro level movement</b>. This means the ranged team needs to move FAST and the alien team needs to move FASTER. If the ranged team is SLOW/IMMOBILE while the melee team is FAST you end up with a clay-pidgin simulator. It TOTALLY destroys the micro level player interaction between enemies. It removes the player vs player movement counters that both sides employ to dodge or attack their enemy. Without micro level combat counters you remove the PLAYER aspect from the combat system.
Marines have 1 option: shoot the aliens
Aliens have 1 option: bite the marine
This is BAD gameplay.
Do not ignore the great movement micro in NS1, it is the BACKBONE of the entire combat system. Implementing a suit that makes marines immobile breaks the core of the great ranged vs melee combat found in NS1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't see why it relies only on fast movement, if one player is fast and weak and the other is slow but powerful, it becomes a game of thought, the trick lies in outmaneuvering your enemy, or picking your attack direction, a skulk can wallwalk, fades can blink, lerks can fly, the whole alien team is geared towards being able to outflank the marines, and NS has lots of ways for the aliens to get around, so if you see a marine minigunning like mad in one direction, don't run into the bullets, think about it and find another route, and attack him from behind where he can't shoot you.
Think of left4dead, the trick for infected is not to be fast, but to be intelligent, you pick your time and attack when the enemy is distracted or when they are weak, the hunter and the boomer don't have ranged attacks, so they have to ambush the survivors, the smoker has a ranged attack but he needs to use it at the right time. That sort of thing is an ideal compliment to the aliens in NS.
Even if all those NS1 abilities aren't still in, we can assume they will be replaced with other abilites which allow the aliens to move freely. And of course there is always the possibility of dedicated anti-turtle abilities like the onos shield or umbra, or whatever.
I have to assume that UWE can think and they are obviously not going to make something that doesn't work. If there are problems we can be sure they'll fix them or they won't include the ideas that cause them, it's not in their interest to make a bad game.
Fixed it for you.
Now find some life objectives and come back once you learn basic forum etiquette.
Also, ack. Backseat modding am I? Now look what you made me do...
On-topic then: Ee-recting a HA! Gorge/Lerk (anti-armour methods pending) is sapping mah Scent tree! AK1mb0 down!
There will be a lot of feedback. And the best part, there will be a lot of mods (like plugins now) that can implement/modify different things on the game. So, if some thing don't goes into the game, you can make it for yourself, or ask someone that knows how to do it.
Actually I thought his comment was very insightful. He's noting that heavy armor has a different playstyle and describing how another game has used it effectively. I think you've missed the point with the assertion that every class has to be a fast arcade-y class.
What he missed was the difference between micro level combat and macro level strategy.
Micro level combat (jumping, aiming, dodging, blocking, flying, blinking, leaping, bhopping, knockback, etc) is easily separated from macro level strategy (situational awareness, map control, res control, flanking, ambushing, team coordination, etc). NS1's greatest achievement was merging great micro combat with great macro strategy. This is THE signature of Natural Selection and it needs to remain the THE signature of Natural Selection 2.
Most combat in NS1 is based around fast marines shooting and dodging faster aliens. The exception is the Onos, who just barrels straight for marines; it's bad gameplay. Granted...the Onos adds strategy to the game, but it destroys the micro level combat. The only reason the Onos gets away with this is because it plays a support role and the cost keeps their numbers limited. If the exo-skeleton also plays a support role that is limited to only a few players, it might be acceptable to sacrifice their micro gameplay in order to increase the game's overall strategic depth. The LAST thing we want are exo-trains that kill the combat system even more than HA in NS1.
Micro level combat (jumping, aiming, dodging, blocking, flying, blinking, leaping, bhopping, knockback, etc) is easily separated from macro level strategy (situational awareness, map control, res control, flanking, ambushing, team coordination, etc). NS1's greatest achievement was merging great micro combat with great macro strategy. This is THE signature of Natural Selection and it needs to remain the THE signature of Natural Selection 2.
Most combat in NS1 is based around fast marines shooting and dodging faster aliens. The exception is the Onos, who just barrels straight for marines; it's bad gameplay. Granted...the Onos adds strategy to the game, but it destroys the micro level combat. The only reason the Onos gets away with this is because its mainly plays a support role and the cost keeps their numbers limited. If the exo-skeleton also plays a support role that is limited to only a few players, it might be acceptable to sacrifice their micro gameplay in order to increase the game's overall strategic depth. The LAST thing we want are exo-trains that kill the combat system even more than HA in NS1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This, a thousand times this.
You could think about it all you liked and attack as cleverly as you wanted but if you didn't have the twitch abilities to match, you'd fail.
I'd like to see options which allow people to focus heavily on the twitch based out-reflexing your enemy, or alternatively on the more methodical approach where you benefit from out-thinking your enemy.
The heavy armor/weapon build would obviously have to have limitations, just as the onos needs to have limitations, no one player should be able to kill an entire enemy team no matter how skilled they are because you're trading the fun of an entire team for the fun of one person, it's doing more harm than good. This is partly why I dlslike mutliplayer games because they always involve one player doing the legwork for the player who kills him to enjoy the game. Singeplayer has the computer doing the boring job so the player can get the glory.
If you must have competitive gaming however, for the most part people should be k/ding at 1:1, because otherwise someone is going to feel like the butt-monkey of the universe, probably a lot of people actually. Of course you need to keep the high point of the kill streak which is why in games like TF2 people get semi-random critical streaks, this allows players who don't neccesarily outclass other players to still get a kill streak now and then, it feels rewarding and prevents only the really good players from having fun.
There is also the point that some things are just inherently fun, clunking around with a big gun shooting stuff is quite fun by itself, therefore you can make that be a high point, simply getting to use the big beefy gun and power armor can be the high point, even if it doesn't affect your K/D ratio much.
The way i'm envisaging exo-armour is an entire group of them would be downright stupid.
No welders ? Check. Long reload times on an entire group of marines ? Check. Slower then normal movement, slower then normal turning ? Check. Carries only weapons that have a spin up time ? Check. Large units that are gonna block each other's LoS ? Check. A simple group of skulks would cause problems, let alone anything else.
On the other hand...need a corridor locked down so anything short of an Onos is gonna get minced ? Voila, park an exo-armour at the end of it. Need that extra oomph to crack a hives defenses ? One order of exo-marines with a side order of normal armour marines providing support and welding coming right up.
Bottom line - we know next to nothing ATM, lets see how it gets implemented. Like Shockie said, in NS1 if you have the res you'd pretty much just gave everyone HA. If exo-armour is instead a tactical choice that changes how you use you 'rines then that sounds cool to me.
And bejessus, you get turned into a mini-dreadnought and carry two mini-guns. Thats awesomesauce.
PS. I reserve the right to call it crap once I see it in-game :P
It'll probably just auto kick in when the user crouches anyway.
That's not true, at least not without the most extreme skill difference. Next time you see someone that seems to be dominating everyone by twitch skills, try watching him. I think you'll find that he also plays the strategy part better than you assumed.
I have never seen any benefit to thought when twitch is required to execute any thoughtful attack, because you're better off just being really good at twitch.
Yep, you guys should watch <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-7jYC7P4dg" target="_blank">this video</a> from 30s to 1min10 for a great example of tactical movement and twitch skill and all that jazz (yeah, its nL but its the best one I can think of off the top of my head). It took place in finals of an ENSL season for reference AND it features dux doing what he does best (failing to get a kill :>).
It's the marine team using JP/HMGs to sandwich pretty much all of the aliens teams lifeforms, countering their attack on a locked down hive and pretty much causing the marines to take the round.
You could think about it all you liked and attack as cleverly as you wanted but if you didn't have the twitch abilities to match, you'd fail.
I'd like to see options which allow people to focus heavily on the twitch based out-reflexing your enemy, or alternatively on the more methodical approach where you benefit from out-thinking your enemy.
The heavy armor/weapon build would obviously have to have limitations, just as the onos needs to have limitations, no one player should be able to kill an entire enemy team no matter how skilled they are because you're trading the fun of an entire team for the fun of one person, it's doing more harm than good. This is partly why I dlslike mutliplayer games because they always involve one player doing the legwork for the player who kills him to enjoy the game. Singeplayer has the computer doing the boring job so the player can get the glory.
If you must have competitive gaming however, for the most part people should be k/ding at 1:1, because otherwise someone is going to feel like the butt-monkey of the universe, probably a lot of people actually. Of course you need to keep the high point of the kill streak which is why in games like TF2 people get semi-random critical streaks, this allows players who don't neccesarily outclass other players to still get a kill streak now and then, it feels rewarding and prevents only the really good players from having fun.
There is also the point that some things are just inherently fun, clunking around with a big gun shooting stuff is quite fun by itself, therefore you can make that be a high point, simply getting to use the big beefy gun and power armor can be the high point, even if it doesn't affect your K/D ratio much.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First off, as a soldier in TF2 getting 3:1 to 5:1 reliably on 2fort I find your claim a little bit noobish. On brand new maps I usually get about 2:1. There's a reason that those ratios are quite different and it has to do with knowing the terrain and the ins and outs of a map. This map advantage is even greater in NS because of the vents, the ability to build non-trivial bases, and the reliance that the aliens have on melee attacks which makes room configuration crucial to survival.
There's also more to that 2:1 ratio than twitching faster like knowing the other class's abilities, knowing your own abilities, knowing interesting relations between your classes (pyro-soldier for example), pack tactics, coaxing them to waste ammo before the real fight, and being able to dodge effectively.
Crits are an interesting mechanic in TF2 because they encourage the better players to pursue unscathed victories rather than relying on the med packs found around the levels. They add an element of overpower to new players, keep mid level players from long kill streaks, and keep the best players from always assaulting head on to achieve their goals. They're a good mechanic, but they certainly do not prevent "the really good players from having fun."
It's kinda nice to have a high k:d ratio for a while, but often players with them will start hunting for similarly skilled players to fight... sometimes this leads to making clans or just favoriting a particularly nasty server. The idea isn't that it's bad to have good players... the idea is to have things like crits that make noobs dangerous while keeping it from being exploited by seasoned players.
If you think that a 3:1 to 5:1 ratio on 2fort is unacceptable, perhaps you're underestimating your opponents. Some of us have been playing on 2fort for well over ten years. We've seen the strategies and counter strategies endless times.
As you said, you don't like multiplayer and if you have to stomach it you'd like to see a k:d of 1:1. This isn't rock-paper-scissors though. Keep working on your "micro skills" that you said were more important and once you have them down to instinct perhaps you'll see how the "macro skills" can completely change a battle. Please keep in mind that the marines have played as alien before and you shouldn't be surprised if they anticipating some basic "attack from behind" tricks.
Micro level combat (jumping, aiming, dodging, blocking, flying, blinking, leaping, bhopping, knockback, etc) is easily separated from macro level strategy (situational awareness, map control, res control, flanking, ambushing, team coordination, etc). NS1's greatest achievement was merging great micro combat with great macro strategy. This is THE signature of Natural Selection and it needs to remain the THE signature of Natural Selection 2.
Most combat in NS1 is based around fast marines shooting and dodging faster aliens. The exception is the Onos, who just barrels straight for marines; it's bad gameplay. Granted...the Onos adds strategy to the game, but it destroys the micro level combat. The only reason the Onos gets away with this is because it plays a support role and the cost keeps their numbers limited. If the exo-skeleton also plays a support role that is limited to only a few players, it might be acceptable to sacrifice their micro gameplay in order to increase the game's overall strategic depth. The LAST thing we want are exo-trains that kill the combat system even more than HA in NS1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That makes sense and I appreciate you taking the time to state it so clearly.
However I'd like to point out that this thread is still a gross overreaction. I don't think exo's will kill competitive NS2 any more than heavies do now due to the inherent skill cap on micro combat for these classes. You still see fades and jps far more than onos and HA's for this reason. As long as the skill cap on jps and fades is much higher they will still be the preferred "better" classes in competitive play if not overall.
I'm also glad that you acknowledge that the onos and HA bring strategic depth to the game which a lot of posters have glossed over in the past because they didn't think the trade off was worth it.
It's the marine team using JP/HMGs to sandwich pretty much all of the aliens teams lifeforms, countering their attack on a locked down hive and pretty much causing the marines to take the round.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
lol I didn't even play in the final! Whenever I get good kills no one has a demo recording. Pff.
~~Sickle~~
<!--coloro:grey--><span style="color:grey"><!--/coloro-->Also, Omega, I didn't really see any of the "twitch" skill in that video.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
~~Sickle~~
<!--coloro:grey--><span style="color:grey"><!--/coloro-->Also, Omega, I didn't really see any of the "twitch" skill in that video.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yeah, not particularly twitch skill but I rather meant "good players" as in mega aims all on its own doesnt cut it in real ns games with equal teams plus to be fair its in like 80% real speed, I swear! ;(
Anyway, my take on lockdown is that it could be implemented well as long as it can't be used every time the alien team makes a push for the whole duration the aliens are in your face. Basically, so you can't get a exo-suit and sit in a corner with dual miniguns and go into lockdown mode any time the aliens come near.
I very much like the idea of it when on offense with the restricted movement but it must come with quite a large downside for me to be comfortable with it being used defensively.