So the entire thesis of the opposing argument has been reduced to "it's not intuitive".
What? Just pointing that out. Not like I addressed that in a reply <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=104580&view=findpost&p=1685012" target="_blank">9 posts up</a> or anything.
why not make it so its more of a evasion sort of thing, granted it would probably feel more like a fade at that point but. Honestly its just hard to say, I like the Bhop but I also don't like it. I mean learning and using the Bhop makes you feel like you accutly did something to improve yourself as a skulk. I mean anyone can ambush after you learn the maps and stuff, but rines can counter by looking and shooting, and learning the maps themselves.
I mean you can always balance it by making it use stamina.
The only thing I want for the gorge is the grappling hook that some of the mods had.... that was fun and VERY useful for getting away and placing chambers
<!--quoteo(post=1685036:date=Aug 1 2008, 07:18 AM:name=w0dk4)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(w0dk4 @ Aug 1 2008, 07:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1685036"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You dont gain speed by turning and strafing in the same direction - NO you dont.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes it is; check the code I pasted for PM_AirMove.
You need to keep wishvel roughly perpendicular to the current player velocity to be able to accelerate. Most of the acceleration is side-ways, making you go in a semi-circular arc, but a small component is in the forward direction allowing you to pick up speed as you turn.
This exact maneuver is something most people have learned to do intuitively in order to make their skulk or fade go towards the enemy; they just never noticed that they picked up a bit of speed while doing it. Connecting these arcs by jumping immediately as you land allows you to circumvent friction and pick up even more speed as you keep jumping.
<!--quoteo(post=1685036:date=Aug 1 2008, 07:18 AM:name=w0dk4)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(w0dk4 @ Aug 1 2008, 07:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1685036"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You are in general faster when you strafe and move forward. You can perfectly see that as a cloaked walking skulk. Walk forward and strafe at the same time, you will lose some of your cloak.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
PM_AirMove is not PM_WalkMove but they share a lot of similarities.
By strafing to the side you are providing a wishvel that has a perpendicular component to your velocity. An easier way to do that is to keep turning in the direction you strafe(just like when bunnyhopping, albeit with a lot higher angular speed on the ground than in the air), allowing you to pick up more speed than wiggling back and forth.
<!--quoteo(post=1685036:date=Aug 1 2008, 07:18 AM:name=w0dk4)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(w0dk4 @ Aug 1 2008, 07:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1685036"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Point is, bunnyhopping does not accelerate you at the moment you jump...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Call me crazy, but I don't see anyone claiming this. You pick up speed when you turn and strafe in the same direction, keeping wishvel roughly perpendicular to your current velocity.
<!--quoteo(post=1685036:date=Aug 1 2008, 07:18 AM:name=w0dk4)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(w0dk4 @ Aug 1 2008, 07:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1685036"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So, now tell me how is that intuitive? Its not so stop posting this rubbish.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's intuitive because everyone has learned to control their player in exactly the same way you do while bunnyhopping, they just haven't figured out that they're gaining some speed when they do it and that they can keep their speed up if they keep jumping.
Women aren't intuitive, I mean sometimes they just don't make logical sense! so we would be better off without them surely. Its irrelevant that a relationship with one can be fun and fulfilling?
Oh wait.
Clearly not.
Sacrificing something fun, especially in a 'game', because it doesnt make sense, or isnt obvious enough, what does that acheive?
As a veteran tfc/hldm and then ns player I have easily spent more time ingame bunnyhopping than I have actually spent walking on the ground, so much so that its probably easier and quicker for me to navigate obstacles with bunnyhopping compared to straightforward movement. To me the skill comes more from how a player implements bunnyhopping into their gameplay rather than how well they can bunnyhop in an open hallway.
Painkiller by far has the best implementation of bunnyhopping as far as "making sense" you move based directly on where you point your mouse and what direction you are pressing. I'm all for making bunnyhopping more intuitive, if thats what new or 'super casual' people need to understand it, but strongly opposed to removing a fun gameplay element without exchanging it for something equal.
<!--quoteo(post=1685034:date=Aug 1 2008, 12:22 PM:name=samurai_jeff)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(samurai_jeff @ Aug 1 2008, 12:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1685034"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I personally disagree, but only because i think i picked up bunny hopping pretty quickly <i>once i had read about its origins, how it all worked.</i><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Then you don't disagree.
Let's make this very clear because it seems lots of people are confusing two different concepts here:
<b>Difficulty:</b> <i>How easy something is to perform (including the learning curve from being a total beginner to being a total expert)</i> Bunnyhopping is fairly easy to learn once you understand the basics. It can be performed without any changes to the default controls (medium-hard difficulty), by binding +jump to the mousewheel to simplify the jump timing (medium difficulty) or by using a script (easy-medium difficulty). I would say it is never easy to perform because you also need to get the mouse movements right, which cannot be scripted in a way it would actually be useful in-game.
<b>Intuitiveness:</b> <i>How readily the element of gameplay can be recognised, learnt and performed purely from in-game cues</i> This differs to difficulty because difficulty is measured regardless of how information is acquired. Intuitiveness is about how quickly a player can grasp a concept or perform an action without any other person telling them how and without having to read how from a source external to the game or relying on existing game conventions that have been learnt prior to playing the game. Intuitiveness is measured on how easy it would be for a complete gaming novice to play the game.
--- <i>Bunyhopping - Unintuitive but not difficult to learn</i> Bunnyhopping is therefore very unintuitive because the combinations of actions do not translate to the same actions of the player avatar in game (a Skulk doesn't look like he's crouching when bunnyhopping, it doesn't look like he's strafing either, it also isn't clear that this forward motion does not use the forward key for its duration). In some ways it is intuitive, it is clear that jumping and snaking is part of the bunnyhopping formula and that doing this increases speed - because that is what other players see happening in the game.
In terms of difficulty, bunnyhopping is slightly difficult because there is an element of timing and directional precision. But I would say that once you know which keys to press and roughly where to point the view while doing it, the results can be seen immediately and the skill can be learnt quite quickly.
couldn't we just have the bunny hopping in quake 3 or quake live? That is simple enough and looks natural enough, Similar to a gazel zig zagging (though this actually slows them down lol)
<!--quoteo(post=1685012:date=Aug 1 2008, 01:27 AM:name=Radix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Radix @ Aug 1 2008, 01:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1685012"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This just happened to come up in the other thread, but I wanted to make a point here about how <!--coloro:lime--><span style="color:lime"><!--/coloro-->intuitive<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> airspeed control and infact bunny hop style mechanics <!--coloro:lime--><span style="color:lime"><!--/coloro-->naturally<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> become when you make the jumping mechanic less fiddly (ie quake style jumping).
I hope he won't take offense at my saying this but I've never seen Bacillus playing in any form of competitive environment (if he has, that's my lack of observation).
But the thing is, even with no competitive play, he blink-hops and uses airspeed control to increase his chances of winning <!--coloro:lime--><span style="color:lime"><!--/coloro-->without even thinking about it<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->.
<b>Isn't this the real issue here?</b> And the real reason a development team would consider removing it?
If it is, then it seems, by the rereading of this thread, that it would be easily implemented (a friend of mine has already done it in Source, and I can't imagine it would be so much harder in Max's engine). And totally worth it. No one I know complains about bhop in quake, that's largely because the interface is so much smoother.
I firmly believe that the consistent negativity that seems to linger is the result primarily of a clunky interface- not a need for a simpler game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Bunnyhopping is not intuitive in any way, shape or form. Even when you get a feel for the air controls, stringing it together left and right while you jump is something that basically no one learns on their own. The reality is that it's an extremely counterintuitive mechanic that is intimidating to new players who don't want to do research on how to move, they just want to play and get better through experience.
It's funny how nobody ever complains when RTS players research the game to come up with the most efficient possible build orders, yet when FPS players research <b>their</b> game and find better ways to do things, everybody who didn't screams blue murder. It's pretty damn ironic really.
Saw this in another thread on the discussion of the engine:
<!--quoteo(post=1686007:date=Aug 15 2008, 12:07 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Flayra @ Aug 15 2008, 12:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1686007"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We're not talking about bunny-hopping - we're bored of it. We have our own thoughts on it as well and I think our solution will appeal to most everyone. Details will follow at some arbitrary later date, not now. Back to the engine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Despite the views of many naive people that think Natural Selection is more about strategy or environment than movement, the fact is, they are wrong. Natural Selection is an FPS first and an RTS second. Most of Natural Selection's success should be accreted to the great melee vs ranged <b>movement</b> mechanics not the narrow tech "tree" and CERTAINLY not the overly used alien vs human "environment".
We should be watching videocasts about your movement, control, and gameplay concepts. THIS is what Natural Selection 2 should be designed around. Instead, for the last 2 years, we have been watching videocasts presenting concepts of environement, feel, graphics, and other bull###### no one gives a ###### about.
My apologies homocide, but you might be jumping the gun a little bit.
While it is true that the majority of the release items have been gameplay ideas, concept art, and such, I do not believe that this in any way detracts from the FPS side of the game. It is merely the stage of the development. You conceptualize what you want first, plan how to execute the ideas and goals, and them implement them.
It may be true that in a future cast they could elaborate on their goals for movement, melee vs ranged, and the FPS side of the game. For now, though, it is more critical they get the code, models, and gameplay ideas done. Even further away is tech trees.
I do agree that this is a FPS/RTS blend and not the other way around. Empires, on the other hand, is a RTS/FPS blend due to the larger number of units and style of the cooperative squad gameplay. However, I am a fan of increasing the functionality of the RTS side a bit since NS1 left some parts to be desired, specifically the granularity of many phases of the game and the critical importance of the Fade and 2nd Hive for mid-game.
In short, I am sure they have thought through movement systems. It's just easier and more interesting, and actually more pressing that they deal with and show other concepts at this phase of development.
No, he's right - the game design should come first. I don't think we know necessarily whether it's done or not though - as all we've seen is graphics, which seem to be what the dev team seems to think we seem to want.
EDIT: Please don't revive this thread with more bhop arguments - it died a peaceful death with many donuts, let's leave it that way.
<!--quoteo(post=1687706:date=Sep 10 2008, 01:07 AM:name=Radix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Radix @ Sep 10 2008, 01:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1687706"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No, he's right - the game design should come first. I don't think we know necessarily whether it's done or not though - as all we've seen is graphics, which seem to be what the dev team seems to think we seem to want.
EDIT: Please don't revive this thread with more bhop arguments - it died a peaceful death with many donuts, let's leave it that way.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1687683:date=Sep 9 2008, 04:44 PM:name=homicide)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(homicide @ Sep 9 2008, 04:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1687683"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We should be watching videocasts about your movement, control, and gameplay concepts. THIS is what Natural Selection 2 should be designed around. Instead, for the last 2 years, we have been watching videocasts presenting concepts of environment, feel, graphics, and other bull###### no one gives a ###### about.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is such a trollish post I'm not sure I should be responding to it, but I see this opinion(albiet not in such an extreme fashion) espoused fairly often.
First of all, the FPS aspect of NS is key, and I would rank it higher than RTS in terms of importance. However, NS without the RTS would just be Combat so throwing it out the window is bad.
Second, the devs have been giving us plenty of gameplay information. Look at the Mobile Siege topic; it has huge importance in terms of gameplay(defend vs payload). Player bought weapons, alien commnading, squad responding, DI, etc. are all very important to the gameplay. Just because they haven't been talking about one gameplay aspect(which would be hard to make into a vid/podcast since you need to "feel" player movement anyway) doesn't mean every podcast has been about "graphics and feel".
Third, feel and graphics are important and define the game. A game with a bland feel would not be well received. Also, since this is UWE's first big game, it better have a distinct feel to separate it from other franchises.
<!--quoteo(post=1688014:date=Sep 12 2008, 03:04 PM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Sep 12 2008, 03:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1688014"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Second, the devs have been giving us plenty of gameplay information. Look at the Mobile Siege topic; it has huge importance in terms of gameplay(defend vs payload). Player bought weapons, alien commnading, squad responding, DI, etc. are all very important to the gameplay. Just because they haven't been talking about one gameplay aspect(which would be hard to make into a vid/podcast since you need to "feel" player movement anyway) doesn't mean every podcast has been about "graphics and feel".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> but they've given us absolutely nothing in terms of physics and movement.
<!--quoteo(post=1684259:date=Jul 22 2008, 11:35 PM:name=Radix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Radix @ Jul 22 2008, 11:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1684259"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->no matter how pretty you may think the soy sauce container is, it will not be a good substitute for sugar in a lemon pie.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Tested. Verified. Anyone want a lemon pie?
I like Underwhelmed's idea. Keep bhop and air control, make it easier for nublets. Skill gap is why I play. If it's not hard, I play something else. If it's too hard for you, join another server or keep getting rolled until you're better.
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
I've read most of the arguments for and against bunnyhopping, and it seems to boil down to 2 simple reasons.
For - People like the skill based movement, and cannot see why people would not think that an 'ALIEN' species would not move in an 'ALIEN' way.
Against - People don't want to bunnyhop, and say that it doesn't look natural for that movement technique.
Here is my simple solution to keep everybody happy. Design an alien, that would move in that way, then bunny hopping can be kept, and it looks real too.
Now, the only animal that moves in an 'S' shape while moving, as does the bunnyhopping skulk, is a Snake. Aliens in NS have a partial reptillian nature. Now as this is done as a jumping move, he must have legs. But they would have to be ridiculously strong legs......
Unless.....
The creature also had small wings, which it could glide with, much like a flying fish. Then a few more and smaller legs would work. I can't draw, but if someone could produce my vision, this would be great.....
A snakelike body, with about 8 legs and wing like appendages, ala flying fish. I doubt it would get in NS2, but you never know <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> Maybe Cory would like to have a go?
<i>::Nudge, Nudge, Say No More, Say No More, Know what I mean?:: Eric Idle (Monty Python)</i>
90% of people who I tried to get to play the game, and quit very early on was due to the giant learning curve, and massive skill range between players (evident not just in late game but specifically early (ie straight away).
I don't want the game to be dumbed down, but I think a low tier alien class doesn't need bhop. Save things like that for the higher-tiered more complex classes.
<!--quoteo(post=1688391:date=Sep 18 2008, 12:31 PM:name=steppin'razor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(steppin'razor @ Sep 18 2008, 12:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1688391"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->90% of people who I tried to get to play the game, and quit very early on was due to the giant learning curve, and massive skill range between players (evident not just in late game but specifically early (ie straight away).
I don't want the game to be dumbed down, but I think a low tier alien class doesn't need bhop. Save things like that for the higher-tiered more complex classes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Instead of making the weakest lifeform have a steep learning curve, lets make the more powerful units have steeper learning curves... this is a great idea. Newbs will love being able to play the ######ty classes while all the vets completely dominate them with higher lifeforms. On top of that, any form of competitive play would be decided almost completely on a few upper lifeforms.
Beyond a players first 2 minutes in the game, the exact opposite of what you are proposing is far more pleasant for everyone.
Actually Homicide, he has a point. If you make the lowest tier of lifeforms focus on intuition <i>as well as skill</i> and make the upper lifeforms less intuitive and even more skill-focused, not only do you create a situation that's conducive to new players continuing to come back for more without raging, but you also generate a sort of atmospheric mystique about people who are truly good enough to res ######, rather than making it the easy out that forces bad pubbers to drop nothing in the early game because they can't skulk worth a damn.
Instead of stripping down the skulk (ooh sexeh? or not) by taking away movement skill, there are other solutions to your concern, steppin. For example, what about making the gorge the newb class? With the alien commander, the gorge could be given waypoints/buildpoints, the res would be spent well without a skill or strategy component, and the player would feel that he contributed to the team. Of course expert gorges could still exist alongside them. In addition, gorge is the best class to observe how the overall game plays out, and learn from it.
Then, a gorge tutorial where waypoints/buildpoints are given would be an excellent entry point into the game of NS. Learning curve disaster averted. Other classes, and bhop/airspeed, could be learned here and there along the way. In fact that's exactly my experience of NS cause I had a bad computer the first year I played it(think 14-25 fps). Eventually I got a real computer and learned to be a great fade and bhop with the big dogs.
Radix your point seemed interesting but I don't understand what you were saying with the atmospheric mystique thing.
<!--quoteo(post=1688482:date=Sep 20 2008, 06:21 AM:name=Radix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Radix @ Sep 20 2008, 06:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1688482"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Actually Homicide, he has a point. If you make the lowest tier of lifeforms focus on intuition <i>as well as skill</i> and make the upper lifeforms less intuitive and even more skill-focused, not only do you create a situation that's conducive to new players continuing to come back for more without raging, but you also generate a sort of atmospheric mystique about people who are truly good enough to res ######, rather than making it the easy out that forces bad pubbers to drop nothing in the early game because they can't skulk worth a damn.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Radix, that is an ingenious idea! It gives players a comfort zone that'll keep them playing the game and they'll also look forward to mastering the other lifeforms. Edit: sorry credit to Homicide, but Radix too!
I'd also argue with people saying that bhop isn't intuitive, I was BHoping, although not amazingly, in CS without even realising it. Why? Because I'd been playing lots and I seemed to move quicker and die less when I did it. I don't know what started me moving like that but it certainly wasn't some tutorial or video. This was also way back in the b5 days.
Ya'll need to remember that this forum is almost EXCLUSIVELY super-fans of natural selection who have been playing for years. If you want to appeal to a larger audience, you need to think about the people who are NOT visiting the forum.
I enjoyed learning to bhop and use skill based movement in NS.
with that said, I think it only creates a larger gap between the "newbs" and the experienced players. I remember starting to play and skulks were zipping around and marines were flying past me, and it was completely off putting. Thankfully compared to other players this tended to make me want to learn that to beat them (I can be competitive) but ALOT of players just dropped the game. I want NS2 to be a commercial success, not just a small niche of hardcore gamers that live for skill based movement.
IMO Charlie and the team aren't saying much on it because they are leaning away from it, and don't want to let alot of the hardcores down (again IMO).
Seems like alot of people who say they want it are from from the hardcore/competitive side of NS, and there point so far haven't convinced me otherwise. Like someone just said this forum is full of those hardcore type players so of course thats what the majority is.
I think with such a steep learning curve already in place due to the games features skill based movement will only hinder its success, and IMO a true fan would rather see that then skill based movement. I do not think this is dumbing the game down at all (there is so much more to the game then getting that skill based movement advantage over others that don't).
I am fully against Bunny Hopping from a design standpoint. It's unintuitive, which by itself should raise flags that a mechanic is flawed. As people said before, it was an engine flaw that was exploited. The reason why people are so defensive over it is because they are sentimental. It made people feel special that they could do something most people didn't know existed. The problem if someone came up to you and pitched you this idea for your game, you would look them in the eye and call them crazy. But in all of its ridiculousness, it arguably enriches the game for a minority (most players can't bunnyhop, this is a purely isolated issue) and you can't just remove it from them. After all, you are here right now supporting the game. But in the end, it would make no difference. No difference at all if bunny hopping is removed.
...
...
The engine will have an extensive scripting language and a decent programmer could just write it back in. The mechanic should not exist in the game, but if a server wants it in - it will eventually be an option anyway. I am not a fan of armchair game designers, but this a unique case where a community present their ideas in practicality.
I think all of those points have been adressed and discussed thoroughly already in the long flamewar.
My conclusion:
1. You can't say removing bhop doesn't do anything. It's the single most addicting mechanic I've ever seen on any game. It's still a huge enjoyment to skulk around on a low ping server that allows you to time the jumps perfectly and make those really tight spiral dives and get a quick burst of speed by some well planned jump combo on ceiling and safety rails. It's probably the biggest reason that still keeps me playing NS after all these years.
2. It's uninuitive to some extend. On the other hand the method doesn't make any sense in real life physics and timing the jumps requires a mousewheel or a script in most cases. Then again, you can practise it all round long if you want to, unlike the fading or lerking for example. It also becomes a natural part of your gameplay if you are willing to practise it long enough. I don't think about bhopping conciously 95% of the time, but still I use the air curve and jump timing on every lifeform.
3. Right now its not required for skulking in any way. It's just one of the great depth thingys that keep you playing this and trying to master the aspect. Ambushing and parasiting are still the most important things to do as a skulk. I guess it painful and confusing for the newbies, but still the game needs some way for the skilled players to overcome the less skilled. I think hardly any good player would be alien in public servers if there was no bhop. When the players are on relatively same level of skill, the bhop becomes just an option as a fighting skulk, not really a weapon in itself.
4. Bhop is originally more or less of an intentional bug, but it has been taken as a feature in NS. You can probably find quotes of almost every NS dev saying it isn't an exploit in NS.
Valid arguments on both factions.
As for the 3rd party plugin for bhop: That doesn't sound that good to me. The competetive scene needs players from the pubber scene. The gap between the two parts of the community can't be too big. You can see the effect nowadays: the leap from a 32 player plugin server to a strict vanilla 6v6 is huge.
Now, unless you've got something to add to this conclusion, let this topic fade into oblivion. There's nothing left to troll or flame here.
Why would anyone want bunny hopping (the way it was in NS1) in NS 2 ?? This "ability" to move was simply a flaw in the HL1 engine, leave it there. If you want a skill based on movement then make a class who's performance is proportional to the quality of its movement or something; the latter is simply an idea and shouldn't be taken as final, it could be developed upon so do not flame me for throwing an idea out there.
I see many are saying that we can't mention realism in our arguments since we are dealing with a sci-fi game and since fun has a higher priority. Realism is always present, in this case it is present in the realm of NS2 and it is also RELATIVE to that realm; which means something that is realistic in the realm of NS2 might not be realistic in our world. It appears that the Humans in NS2 follow the same properties of realism as we do, the aliens on the other hand... well they are aliens.
I think bunnyhopping is a fun mechanic, but it only makes sense to have it in Skulks, mostly because it allows them to be airborne, unpredictable and most of all have a really cool movement pattern that could be somewhat of a Skulk trademark. I don't think Onos, Marines or anything inbetween should have it, and although Gorges are pretty slow and bhopping helps them it just looks stupid for that kind of creature to be hopping wildly and travel so fast.
So I say keep it but only at Skulks. I love skulks because even though they are the basic unit, they're still incredibly versatile and mobile. And for the rest of the units, a sprint could achieve the same effect.
EpidemicDark Force GorgeJoin Date: 2003-06-29Member: 17781Members
<!--quoteo(post=1684259:date=Jul 22 2008, 05:35 PM:name=Radix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Radix @ Jul 22 2008, 05:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1684259"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm highlighting this argument because it speaks for several different people...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why not introduce different mechanics that require different skills instead of bunnyhopping? I felt that was one of the problem of NS, the skulks ground speed attained by bunnyhopping in addition to the jittery movement produced because of it, made the gameplay feel too chaotic. NS needs to overhaul movement and combat stats entirely, making it easier to control, not harder. Bunnyhopping belongs in a different era, let it die.
Comments
What? Just pointing that out. Not like I addressed that in a reply <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=104580&view=findpost&p=1685012" target="_blank">9 posts up</a> or anything.
I mean you can always balance it by making it use stamina.
The only thing I want for the gorge is the grappling hook that some of the mods had.... that was fun and VERY useful for getting away and placing chambers
Yes it is; check the code I pasted for PM_AirMove.
You need to keep wishvel roughly perpendicular to the current player velocity to be able to accelerate. Most of the acceleration is side-ways, making you go in a semi-circular arc, but a small component is in the forward direction allowing you to pick up speed as you turn.
This exact maneuver is something most people have learned to do intuitively in order to make their skulk or fade go towards the enemy; they just never noticed that they picked up a bit of speed while doing it. Connecting these arcs by jumping immediately as you land allows you to circumvent friction and pick up even more speed as you keep jumping.
<!--quoteo(post=1685036:date=Aug 1 2008, 07:18 AM:name=w0dk4)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(w0dk4 @ Aug 1 2008, 07:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1685036"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You are in general faster when you strafe and move forward. You can perfectly see that as a cloaked walking skulk. Walk forward and strafe at the same time, you will lose some of your cloak.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
PM_AirMove is not PM_WalkMove but they share a lot of similarities.
By strafing to the side you are providing a wishvel that has a perpendicular component to your velocity. An easier way to do that is to keep turning in the direction you strafe(just like when bunnyhopping, albeit with a lot higher angular speed on the ground than in the air), allowing you to pick up more speed than wiggling back and forth.
<!--quoteo(post=1685036:date=Aug 1 2008, 07:18 AM:name=w0dk4)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(w0dk4 @ Aug 1 2008, 07:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1685036"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Point is, bunnyhopping does not accelerate you at the moment you jump...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Call me crazy, but I don't see anyone claiming this. You pick up speed when you turn and strafe in the same direction, keeping wishvel roughly perpendicular to your current velocity.
<!--quoteo(post=1685036:date=Aug 1 2008, 07:18 AM:name=w0dk4)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(w0dk4 @ Aug 1 2008, 07:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1685036"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So, now tell me how is that intuitive?
Its not so stop posting this rubbish.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's intuitive because everyone has learned to control their player in exactly the same way you do while bunnyhopping, they just haven't figured out that they're gaining some speed when they do it and that they can keep their speed up if they keep jumping.
Oh wait.
Clearly not.
Sacrificing something fun, especially in a 'game', because it doesnt make sense, or isnt obvious enough, what does that acheive?
As a veteran tfc/hldm and then ns player I have easily spent more time ingame bunnyhopping than I have actually spent walking on the ground, so much so that its probably easier and quicker for me to navigate obstacles with bunnyhopping compared to straightforward movement. To me the skill comes more from how a player implements bunnyhopping into their gameplay rather than how well they can bunnyhop in an open hallway.
Painkiller by far has the best implementation of bunnyhopping as far as "making sense" you move based directly on where you point your mouse and what direction you are pressing. I'm all for making bunnyhopping more intuitive, if thats what new or 'super casual' people need to understand it, but strongly opposed to removing a fun gameplay element without exchanging it for something equal.
Let's make this very clear because it seems lots of people are confusing two different concepts here:
<b>Difficulty:</b> <i>How easy something is to perform (including the learning curve from being a total beginner to being a total expert)</i>
Bunnyhopping is fairly easy to learn once you understand the basics. It can be performed without any changes to the default controls (medium-hard difficulty), by binding +jump to the mousewheel to simplify the jump timing (medium difficulty) or by using a script (easy-medium difficulty). I would say it is never easy to perform because you also need to get the mouse movements right, which cannot be scripted in a way it would actually be useful in-game.
<b>Intuitiveness:</b> <i>How readily the element of gameplay can be recognised, learnt and performed purely from in-game cues</i>
This differs to difficulty because difficulty is measured regardless of how information is acquired. Intuitiveness is about how quickly a player can grasp a concept or perform an action without any other person telling them how and without having to read how from a source external to the game or relying on existing game conventions that have been learnt prior to playing the game. Intuitiveness is measured on how easy it would be for a complete gaming novice to play the game.
---
<i>Bunyhopping - Unintuitive but not difficult to learn</i>
Bunnyhopping is therefore very unintuitive because the combinations of actions do not translate to the same actions of the player avatar in game (a Skulk doesn't look like he's crouching when bunnyhopping, it doesn't look like he's strafing either, it also isn't clear that this forward motion does not use the forward key for its duration). In some ways it is intuitive, it is clear that jumping and snaking is part of the bunnyhopping formula and that doing this increases speed - because that is what other players see happening in the game.
In terms of difficulty, bunnyhopping is slightly difficult because there is an element of timing and directional precision. But I would say that once you know which keys to press and roughly where to point the view while doing it, the results can be seen immediately and the skill can be learnt quite quickly.
Take a load off and free your mind while you post about your favorite donut.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns/forums/index.php?showtopic=104613&st=40&#entry1685304" target="_blank">mmmmmmmMMM Donuts!</a>
I hope he won't take offense at my saying this but I've never seen Bacillus playing in any form of competitive environment (if he has, that's my lack of observation).
But the thing is, even with no competitive play, he blink-hops and uses airspeed control to increase his chances of winning <!--coloro:lime--><span style="color:lime"><!--/coloro-->without even thinking about it<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->.
<b>Isn't this the real issue here?</b> And the real reason a development team would consider removing it?
If it is, then it seems, by the rereading of this thread, that it would be easily implemented (a friend of mine has already done it in Source, and I can't imagine it would be so much harder in Max's engine). And totally worth it. No one I know complains about bhop in quake, that's largely because the interface is so much smoother.
I firmly believe that the consistent negativity that seems to linger is the result primarily of a clunky interface- not a need for a simpler game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bunnyhopping is not intuitive in any way, shape or form. Even when you get a feel for the air controls, stringing it together left and right while you jump is something that basically no one learns on their own. The reality is that it's an extremely counterintuitive mechanic that is intimidating to new players who don't want to do research on how to move, they just want to play and get better through experience.
<!--quoteo(post=1686007:date=Aug 15 2008, 12:07 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Flayra @ Aug 15 2008, 12:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1686007"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We're not talking about bunny-hopping - we're bored of it. We have our own thoughts on it as well and I think our solution will appeal to most everyone. Details will follow at some arbitrary later date, not now. Back to the engine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hope that helps out.
We should be watching videocasts about your movement, control, and gameplay concepts. THIS is what Natural Selection 2 should be designed around. Instead, for the last 2 years, we have been watching videocasts presenting concepts of environement, feel, graphics, and other bull###### no one gives a ###### about.
While it is true that the majority of the release items have been gameplay ideas, concept art, and such, I do not believe that this in any way detracts from the FPS side of the game. It is merely the stage of the development. You conceptualize what you want first, plan how to execute the ideas and goals, and them implement them.
It may be true that in a future cast they could elaborate on their goals for movement, melee vs ranged, and the FPS side of the game. For now, though, it is more critical they get the code, models, and gameplay ideas done. Even further away is tech trees.
I do agree that this is a FPS/RTS blend and not the other way around. Empires, on the other hand, is a RTS/FPS blend due to the larger number of units and style of the cooperative squad gameplay. However, I am a fan of increasing the functionality of the RTS side a bit since NS1 left some parts to be desired, specifically the granularity of many phases of the game and the critical importance of the Fade and 2nd Hive for mid-game.
In short, I am sure they have thought through movement systems. It's just easier and more interesting, and actually more pressing that they deal with and show other concepts at this phase of development.
EDIT: Please don't revive this thread with more bhop arguments - it died a peaceful death with many donuts, let's leave it that way.
EDIT: Please don't revive this thread with more bhop arguments - it died a peaceful death with many donuts, let's leave it that way.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I DEMAND FORWARD SKULK BHOPPING!
This is such a trollish post I'm not sure I should be responding to it, but I see this opinion(albiet not in such an extreme fashion) espoused fairly often.
First of all, the FPS aspect of NS is key, and I would rank it higher than RTS in terms of importance. However, NS without the RTS would just be Combat so throwing it out the window is bad.
Second, the devs have been giving us plenty of gameplay information. Look at the Mobile Siege topic; it has huge importance in terms of gameplay(defend vs payload). Player bought weapons, alien commnading, squad responding, DI, etc. are all very important to the gameplay. Just because they haven't been talking about one gameplay aspect(which would be hard to make into a vid/podcast since you need to "feel" player movement anyway) doesn't mean every podcast has been about "graphics and feel".
Third, feel and graphics are important and define the game. A game with a bland feel would not be well received. Also, since this is UWE's first big game, it better have a distinct feel to separate it from other franchises.
but they've given us absolutely nothing in terms of physics and movement.
Tested. Verified. Anyone want a lemon pie?
I like Underwhelmed's idea. Keep bhop and air control, make it easier for nublets. Skill gap is why I play. If it's not hard, I play something else. If it's too hard for you, join another server or keep getting rolled until you're better.
For - People like the skill based movement, and cannot see why people would not think that an 'ALIEN' species would not move in an 'ALIEN' way.
Against - People don't want to bunnyhop, and say that it doesn't look natural for that movement technique.
Here is my simple solution to keep everybody happy. Design an alien, that would move in that way, then bunny hopping can be kept, and it looks real too.
Now, the only animal that moves in an 'S' shape while moving, as does the bunnyhopping skulk, is a Snake. Aliens in NS have a partial reptillian nature. Now as this is done as a jumping move, he must have legs. But they would have to be ridiculously strong legs......
Unless.....
The creature also had small wings, which it could glide with, much like a flying fish. Then a few more and smaller legs would work. I can't draw, but if someone could produce my vision, this would be great.....
A snakelike body, with about 8 legs and wing like appendages, ala flying fish. I doubt it would get in NS2, but you never know <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> Maybe Cory would like to have a go?
<i>::Nudge, Nudge, Say No More, Say No More, Know what I mean?::
Eric Idle (Monty Python)</i>
I don't want the game to be dumbed down, but I think a low tier alien class doesn't need bhop. Save things like that for the higher-tiered more complex classes.
I don't want the game to be dumbed down, but I think a low tier alien class doesn't need bhop. Save things like that for the higher-tiered more complex classes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Instead of making the weakest lifeform have a steep learning curve, lets make the more powerful units have steeper learning curves... this is a great idea. Newbs will love being able to play the ######ty classes while all the vets completely dominate them with higher lifeforms. On top of that, any form of competitive play would be decided almost completely on a few upper lifeforms.
Beyond a players first 2 minutes in the game, the exact opposite of what you are proposing is far more pleasant for everyone.
Then, a gorge tutorial where waypoints/buildpoints are given would be an excellent entry point into the game of NS. Learning curve disaster averted. Other classes, and bhop/airspeed, could be learned here and there along the way. In fact that's exactly my experience of NS cause I had a bad computer the first year I played it(think 14-25 fps). Eventually I got a real computer and learned to be a great fade and bhop with the big dogs.
Radix your point seemed interesting but I don't understand what you were saying with the atmospheric mystique thing.
Radix, that is an ingenious idea! It gives players a comfort zone that'll keep them playing the game and they'll also look forward to mastering the other lifeforms.
Edit: sorry credit to Homicide, but Radix too!
I'd also argue with people saying that bhop isn't intuitive, I was BHoping, although not amazingly, in CS without even realising it. Why? Because I'd been playing lots and I seemed to move quicker and die less when I did it. I don't know what started me moving like that but it certainly wasn't some tutorial or video. This was also way back in the b5 days.
with that said, I think it only creates a larger gap between the "newbs" and the experienced players. I remember starting to play and skulks were zipping around and marines were flying past me, and it was completely off putting. Thankfully compared to other players this tended to make me want to learn that to beat them (I can be competitive) but ALOT of players just dropped the game. I want NS2 to be a commercial success, not just a small niche of hardcore gamers that live for skill based movement.
IMO Charlie and the team aren't saying much on it because they are leaning away from it, and don't want to let alot of the hardcores down (again IMO).
Seems like alot of people who say they want it are from from the hardcore/competitive side of NS, and there point so far haven't convinced me otherwise. Like someone just said this forum is full of those hardcore type players so of course thats what the majority is.
I think with such a steep learning curve already in place due to the games features skill based movement will only hinder its success, and IMO a true fan would rather see that then skill based movement. I do not think this is dumbing the game down at all (there is so much more to the game then getting that skill based movement advantage over others that don't).
I am fully against Bunny Hopping from a design standpoint. It's unintuitive, which by itself should raise flags that a mechanic is flawed. As people said before, it was an engine flaw that was exploited. The reason why people are so defensive over it is because they are sentimental. It made people feel special that they could do something most people didn't know existed. The problem if someone came up to you and pitched you this idea for your game, you would look them in the eye and call them crazy. But in all of its ridiculousness, it arguably enriches the game for a minority (most players can't bunnyhop, this is a purely isolated issue) and you can't just remove it from them. After all, you are here right now supporting the game. But in the end, it would make no difference. No difference at all if bunny hopping is removed.
...
...
The engine will have an extensive scripting language and a decent programmer could just write it back in. The mechanic should not exist in the game, but if a server wants it in - it will eventually be an option anyway. I am not a fan of armchair game designers, but this a unique case where a community present their ideas in practicality.
My conclusion:
1. You can't say removing bhop doesn't do anything. It's the single most addicting mechanic I've ever seen on any game. It's still a huge enjoyment to skulk around on a low ping server that allows you to time the jumps perfectly and make those really tight spiral dives and get a quick burst of speed by some well planned jump combo on ceiling and safety rails. It's probably the biggest reason that still keeps me playing NS after all these years.
2. It's uninuitive to some extend. On the other hand the method doesn't make any sense in real life physics and timing the jumps requires a mousewheel or a script in most cases. Then again, you can practise it all round long if you want to, unlike the fading or lerking for example. It also becomes a natural part of your gameplay if you are willing to practise it long enough. I don't think about bhopping conciously 95% of the time, but still I use the air curve and jump timing on every lifeform.
3. Right now its not required for skulking in any way. It's just one of the great depth thingys that keep you playing this and trying to master the aspect. Ambushing and parasiting are still the most important things to do as a skulk. I guess it painful and confusing for the newbies, but still the game needs some way for the skilled players to overcome the less skilled. I think hardly any good player would be alien in public servers if there was no bhop. When the players are on relatively same level of skill, the bhop becomes just an option as a fighting skulk, not really a weapon in itself.
4. Bhop is originally more or less of an intentional bug, but it has been taken as a feature in NS. You can probably find quotes of almost every NS dev saying it isn't an exploit in NS.
Valid arguments on both factions.
As for the 3rd party plugin for bhop: That doesn't sound that good to me. The competetive scene needs players from the pubber scene. The gap between the two parts of the community can't be too big. You can see the effect nowadays: the leap from a 32 player plugin server to a strict vanilla 6v6 is huge.
Now, unless you've got something to add to this conclusion, let this topic fade into oblivion. There's nothing left to troll or flame here.
If you want a skill based on movement then make a class who's performance is proportional to the quality of its movement or something; the latter is simply an idea and shouldn't be taken as final, it could be developed upon so do not flame me for throwing an idea out there.
I see many are saying that we can't mention realism in our arguments since we are dealing with a sci-fi game and since fun has a higher priority. Realism is always present, in this case it is present in the realm of NS2 and it is also RELATIVE to that realm; which means something that is realistic in the realm of NS2 might not be realistic in our world. It appears that the Humans in NS2 follow the same properties of realism as we do, the aliens on the other hand... well they are aliens.
So I say keep it but only at Skulks. I love skulks because even though they are the basic unit, they're still incredibly versatile and mobile.
And for the rest of the units, a sprint could achieve the same effect.
Why not introduce different mechanics that require different skills instead of bunnyhopping? I felt that was one of the problem of NS, the skulks ground speed attained by bunnyhopping in addition to the jittery movement produced because of it, made the gameplay feel too chaotic. NS needs to overhaul movement and combat stats entirely, making it easier to control, not harder. Bunnyhopping belongs in a different era, let it die.