Bunny Hop and Airspeed Control
Radix
Join Date: 2005-01-10 Member: 34654Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2005-01-10 Member: 34654Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">A redirected discussion from Engine Q&A</div>Please keep to the following:
Keep it clean. This refers both to the brevity of what you say, as well as the way you say it. If you hate someone, then go away. If you disagree with a viewpoint, then explain why, and be done with it.
Keep it clean. This refers both to the brevity of what you say, as well as the way you say it. If you hate someone, then go away. If you disagree with a viewpoint, then explain why, and be done with it.
Comments
I'm highlighting this argument because it speaks for several different people. Its thesis can be summarized as "<!--coloro:red--><span style="color:red"><!--/coloro-->bunny hop is not realistic<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->."
My counterpoint is that <!--coloro:lime--><span style="color:lime"><!--/coloro-->games do not need to be realistic. They need to be fun.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> Making engine decisions based on realism is like making cooking decisions based on how pretty the ingredients are.
<!--quoteo(post=1684232:date=Jul 22 2008, 04:14 PM:name=NovusAnimus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(NovusAnimus @ Jul 22 2008, 04:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1684232"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But anyway, it doesn't really make sense that a character moves faster when jumping around diagonally, unless you're an alien and you have a weird body structure that supports that sort of movement (IE: POUNCING AND BLINKING) BHopping I think should be removed, but should also be replaced with something that actually makes a degree of sense WHILE maintaining fun gameplay. I know that's a difficult balance to strike, but watching skulks bounce around diagonally cause they're somehow aerodynamic or some ###### is just silly and annoying.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The thesis here as I see it is also very common, and in my view very flawed. It is <!--coloro:red--><span style="color:red"><!--/coloro-->bunny hop does not make sense<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->. This is an argument again for realism, and again, no matter how pretty you may think the soy sauce container is, it will not be a good substitute for sugar in a lemon pie. The gameplay mechanic is good gameplay, based on the fact that it <!--coloro:lime--><span style="color:lime"><!--/coloro-->allows players to use skill to increase their chances of winning<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> (albiet not by a lot, but by enough for it to matter), <!--coloro:lime--><span style="color:lime"><!--/coloro-->while not requiring any fancy key combination to make it work<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->. It has a very slick interface, which I think makes it a good candidate for implementation even on a new engine.
I'm not arguing in this thread against Novus' idea for a different, or more mainstream movement system - in fact I agree with him in many ways. I proposed this thread as a discussion on bunny hop, and I'm most certainly willing to take the "pro" side.
I firmly believe that the default class/unit for each side should also be one of the most simple to use. Too many games in NS1 are won or lost in the first few minutes simply on whether or not the alien side is any good with vanilla skulks. Bunny hopping doesn't just provide a massive speed boost, it also makes a skulk really hard to shoot at. A bhopping skulk also massively boosts the aiming requirements of the marine team, and plays 2 roles in affecting early game balance.
If the default alien unit was the gorge (rebalanced for this role, perhaps), and the bunnyhopping skulk was the 2nd life form, I'd be far more supportive of having such a powerful and complex skill-based movement system for such a low-tier class.
It doesn't look that good regarding mood/atmosphere of the game, it doesn't come naturally, and new players have to learn it from tutorials or other players because they are wondering after a while why everyone else is faster.
I like that you have to invest some time to master it and that it doesn't take addional keys to use,
but the only purpose of it is to get faster to your enemy or receive less damage before you can attack the enemy.
This can be accomplished with other/new movement skills as well, which will hopefully be easier to be accessed,learned and mastered by new players.
Airspeed Control should stay since it affects multiple movement skills.
I'd like to see walljump improved (jump a little further e.g.), because it also helps in certain situations to get closer to your enemy with less damage received and imho it looks cool, especially in small corridors, where skulks can change walls easily.
It's also more obvious to newer players than a skulk just being magically faster by hopping like a stupid.
An improved walljump would get used a lot more and thus players would pick it up earlier.
It very difficult for me to truly construct a strong argument against it because I haven't made a concerted effort to actually learn Bhopping myself. I guess my bias against it stems from my inability to do certain things that are enabled to others because I chose not to learn a skill that I believe wasn't planned to be in the engine in the first place.
However, Bhopping has created a dynamic of the game that I believe really helps in the overall experience of the game. It offers a way for players to get from point A to B faster, but usually with the loss of immediate reaction to assault and the chance of blocking oneself on obstacles. To me, Bhopping was essentially the predecessor to the sprinting dynamic of today's FPSs, which offer increased speed for immediate loss of reaction to assault and a limited amount in which you can do it.
Bhopping also brings in skill. Despite what you've said Radix, I have tried Bhopping. And maybe I'm just retarded, but I haven't been able to successfully pull it off for more than 3 jumps. In anycase, Bhopping requires a certain level of skill in which not everyone has or is willing to attain. This caters to those who play a lot, and I believe created this division that we have had for awhile (Bhoppers vs. Bhop haters). The sprinting dynamic eliminates the innate skill level required for Bhopping, delivers essentially the same end result, and while it is noob-friendlier, is still creates the original dynamics in gameplay which Bhopping did. By offering a time/speed vs. amount of speed available/vulnerability, the sprinting dynamic gets rid of the need for Bhopping while gaining noob-friendliness. To me, a player in which has the skills the Bhop can also convert that general skill of the game into using the sprint mechanic to its fullest, it just focuses more on timing and where you are on maps, as opposed to constantly Bhopping everywhere. It would seem that a skilled player might even benefit from the sprint mechanic more, because it allows his time-based decision making skills to be put into play much more often than Bhopping ever did.
So yeah, my basic argument is that Bhopping can be replaced successfully by the sprint mechanic, offer skilled players more time-base options, and lower the level of skill needed to start performing the mechanic to a new player level.
I can see the point, but bhop is only a part of the problem there. With some smart play you could have some devastating skulks even without bhop. The whole low-hp stealth alien seems to be too confusing for new players, not only bhop.
Basically I agree that skulk is too complex for the starting unit, but I can hardly ever see bhop being the limiting factor for the skulks. Sure it does open new possibilities in skulking and gives you easy frags because its difficult to hit, but most players never seem to get to the level where they could start working on their movement instead of the basic skulk thinking. For example I rarely see skulks going for parasite and then sticking to the next suitable doorway, while that is arguably an equally potential way of fragging marines on average servers.
---
In general: I don't know what could replace bhop
Sidejumping, movement combos, sprint and covering methods are missing the flexibility the air control system has. Basically you can do the dodge whenever you want, but its always the same move with quite little variation. Taking cover works mostly on locations designed for them. Then again, if you take a look at <a href="http://youtube.com/watch?v=Q7A55BOase4" target="_blank">this</a>, <!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro-->you can see how flexible the air control system is even for marines. You can variate it on boxes, knockbacks, ramps and flat ground and choose the direction and curve at any point. That actually creates relatively unique ways of moving around, rewards the use of the surroundings, forces you to choose between aiming and movement in quick situations and takes only the usual controls to use (the directions, duck, jump and mouse).<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> Most of the other movement system I can think of require more keys, perform only predesigned moves and still hurt the immersion, since the premade animations lock you up against walls and other players.
The whole 'timed sideways jump' is counter-intuitive, but a sideways mini-leap that has some impact to landing actually makes gameplay more balanced, as in you'll not ALWAYS BHOP. That is the problem, isn't it? That instead of seeing a bunch of skulks running around, we see a bunch of BEACH BALLS bouncing around.
= <!--coloro:red--><span style="color:red"><!--/coloro-->to increase community cohesion by eliminating skill gaps<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
- <!--coloro:lime--><span style="color:lime"><!--/coloro-->no amount of community cohesion is worth decreasing the skill ceiling of a game.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
= <!--coloro:red--><span style="color:red"><!--/coloro-->because it is a flaw in the engine<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
- <!--coloro:lime--><span style="color:lime"><!--/coloro-->they're making their own engine. therefore it would not be a flaw it would be part of the game. the only question is whether it should be included as a feature.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Suffice it to say, count me in as a bhater, I am firmly entrenched in my opinion that it ruins games, not just NS1 either. I don't like to see bhop and I don't like to do bhop.
No, I don't disagree that some people do it really well and different people use it with different amounts of "skill" but I find the whole process so onerous and cantankerous towards beginning and even novice players, that I liken it to a professional climber with full equipment laughing at those who are unable to climb higher than their waste height up a vertical cliff face. Sure, that cliff is really high and we all applaud your skill in reaching such great heights, but its hardly fun for those of us you are pushing boulders on to.
Skillful movement does not have to mean archaic movement, as has been mentioned has been shown to be possible in games like Unreal Tournament. And heck, that looks good too!
In my experience, games that have bhop I do not buy, but I do excuse mods for having it if the game it mods had it because, heck, they are free and born of some one else's good will, so I will not thankful and over look its quirks. Heck, I'll still purchase NS2 just to show my appreciation for NS1, but I don't think I would play very long if bhop was as much a problem as I see it is in NS1.
I am not a programmer so I honestly have no idea how easy it would be to recreate, but if it could be implemented I definitely think that it should. My reason for thinking so is the fact that this game is ranged vs melee. The melee side NEEDS an advantage to level the playing field I don't think that it HAS to be bunny hopping, but it worked in the original ns.
My only real point I want to make is that cutting out the bhop for the sake of "it does not make sense" is a ridiculous thing to do. Games are not about making sense they are about fun, that simple. If it IS cut out something NEEDS to replace it, and that must be equally fun and challenging while allowing the melee class to level the playing field vs ranged classes.
P.S. Bring back the vet program <3 <3
This is a reasonable argument. It's one of the only ones I ever see that aren't spawned 100% out of frustration.
<!--coloro:lime--><span style="color:lime"><!--/coloro-->The problem with this argument is that the actual act of bunny hopping isn't necessary, and infact, isn't even remotely required to play NS.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> The best argument that can be generated to the contrary is for situations where a location has been locked down and players have no resources and players must rush that location. If this happens, I would argue that the other team is either prohibitively better already (to have enough of an economy to fund such a lockdown when no lerk or even gorge spit resources are available), and should win anyway, or that this situation is so unlikely to happen in low-caliber games that it doesn't warrant removal simply because of its lack of frequency.
<!--coloro:lime--><span style="color:lime"><!--/coloro-->Bunny hopping is a way to move around the map faster.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> An organized rush of mediocre-to-bad skulks can take down almost any scenario like the one described above, and they don't need to be ubergood bunnyhoppers. They just have to play as a team. Having a skilled player with you will obviously never hurt until a game is so devoid of skill as to be completely unchallenging, which is not good game design in my opinion.
Airspeed Control is a way to maneuver in combat, and honestly, it's very skillful, very deep, very interesting to use, and a heck of a lot more intuitive than bunnyhop. It's also much easier to learn, and doesn't require the intense focus that (even a scripted) bunny hop will take.
That distinction made, I still defend bunny hop because I think it's a positive gameplay element.
<!--quoteo(post=1684265:date=Jul 23 2008, 01:35 AM:name=GaussWaffle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(GaussWaffle @ Jul 23 2008, 01:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1684265"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bhopping also brings in skill. Despite what you've said Radix, I have tried Bhopping. And maybe I'm just retarded, but I haven't been able to successfully pull it off for more than 3 jumps.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You might want to try binding +jump to mouse wheel up or down, or assign a script (which is an intended gameplay feature in the engine) to create a greater margin of error for repeated jumps. It won't play the game for you, or accelerate for you, but it does help to let you be human in making all those taps on your keyboard or mouse. There's a lot of information in The Dojo that you can make available to yourself with a little patience, bhop is an extensively-covered area.
<!--quoteo(post=1684265:date=Jul 23 2008, 01:35 AM:name=GaussWaffle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(GaussWaffle @ Jul 23 2008, 01:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1684265"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In anycase, Bhopping requires a certain level of skill in which not everyone has or is willing to attain. This caters to those who play a lot, and I believe created this division that we have had for awhile (Bhoppers vs. Bhop haters). <!--coloro:red--><span style="color:red"><!--/coloro-->The sprinting dynamic eliminates the innate skill level required for Bhopping, delivers essentially the same end result<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->, and while it is noob-friendlier, is still creates the original dynamics in gameplay which Bhopping did.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a total contradiction. A requirement of skill can't be removed and offer the same result. I enjoy playing sports because it allows me to outplay other people to win. <!--coloro:lime--><span style="color:lime"><!--/coloro-->If I could push a button and hit a homerun every time, the game would be meaningless, and I would become bored.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> Similarly, if a sprint button were used in an online game in place of a deep system like Airspeed Control, <!--coloro:lime--><span style="color:lime"><!--/coloro-->I would have no reason to buy that game, because it would be boring to me.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Some people have the patience to achieve in their endeavors. Others would rather play support roles. Both people have the opportunity to do important tasks in a game like NS, but you can't have your cake and eat it too. If you want to be good at something, you have to have patience and a willingness to adapt. If you would rather play casually, that's fine, but don't penalize the dedicated because of your lack of tenacity. Just play a support role, and be a good team member, and enjoy the ride! That way if you ever want to take a step further, that step will be there for you, and you can enjoy that set of gameplay possibilities if and when you decide to.
<!--quoteo(post=1684330:date=Jul 23 2008, 11:10 PM:name=CanadianWolverine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CanadianWolverine @ Jul 23 2008, 11:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1684330"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't like getting involved in this, it seems like a hostile subject, where those who oppose my humble opinion have no bones on telling me just how wrong my opinion is, despite it being my opinion on what makes a game fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You may be mistaking hostility for frustration. When you argue based on an opinion, some people who prefer facts may have difficulty accepting what you believe as objective and correct, simply due to a lack of evidence.
<!--quoteo(post=1684330:date=Jul 23 2008, 11:10 PM:name=CanadianWolverine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CanadianWolverine @ Jul 23 2008, 11:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1684330"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No, I don't disagree that some people do it really well and different people use it with different amounts of "skill" but I find the whole process so onerous and cantankerous towards beginning and even novice players, that I liken it to a professional climber with full equipment laughing at those who are unable to climb higher than their waste height up a vertical cliff face. Sure, that cliff is really high and we all applaud your skill in reaching such great heights, but its hardly fun for those of us you are pushing boulders on to.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then find a climbing buddy and beat us through teamwork and other skills like resource management. First peson skill is only one resource in a game like NS - there's no excuse for losing to good bhopping, it isn't even that gamebreaking. Good aim is a much greater factor, and I don't think any reasonable person would argue that aim should be nerfed or removed just because it's a very powerful resource.
<!--quoteo(post=1684333:date=Jul 24 2008, 12:56 AM:name=birdsITPx89)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(birdsITPx89 @ Jul 24 2008, 12:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1684333"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--coloro:red--><span style="color:red"><!--/coloro-->I think bunny hop is a necessary aspect of alien gameplay.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> Other wise your movements are too predictable and you are easily gunned down.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--coloro:lime--><span style="color:lime"><!--/coloro-->This is a common misconception.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> Bunny hop isn't even used except in the most esoteric situations. The vast majority of the time, <!--coloro:lime--><span style="color:lime"><!--/coloro-->ambushing, circle strafing, and bouncing off of walls - generally moving in a jagged pattern - is far more effective<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> than any degree of speed you would get with a bhop. While airspeed control can contribute to an effective ambush, bunny hop itself is not as big of a factor as it is made out to be, unless you're trying to bdrop marines down a long coridoor - which is suicide by design.
Skill based movement: There is only one reason I have played NS for as long as I have, skill based movement. UT doesn't even come CLOSE with double jumping, other games focus on shooting vs movement, the reality is, with NS, even once you know the maps in and out, have memorized every little corner skulks can possibly pop out of, and have mastered every economic and militaristic strategy involved, there will always be a HUGE amount of outright skills to master as well. NS is not focused on aiming excessively like most other FPS titles, it has many many many many different movement and combat platforms to play with, and they all interact together well. Simply put, in the current version of NS, bunnyhopping incontrovertibly makes the game, it would suck without it. Marine play would be dry and boring like it is in tremulous, skulks would feel awkward and would be frustrating to use, fades would just suck. Bunnyhopping is the one thing that makes NS better then it's competition. That being said, it's not because of some magical aspect of bunnyhopping, it's just that it's an intensively skill focused style of movement that gives a player MANY MANY different approaches to any given situation. I can stay on the ground and have more control over my crosshair for aiming, or I can go airborn and have more variability and adaptability to my motion. This is made ESPECIALLY potent by marines inability to backpedal in standard movement. The point I'm making is, skill based movement is the one thing that makes NS fun for more than 2 weeks for 60% of the player population. Not having skill based movement in the game is murdering everything NS is, and if you don't agree then you are an idiot. There is absolutely no concession I can make here for "realism". Gameplay trumps it in this case by 800%.
The problem of FPS player physics vs realism: Simply put a keyboard and mouse can't possibly recreate a realistic movement system. If I want to jump from point A to landing platform B in real life, I have an array of tools at my disposal, I can easily choose my takeoff speed, I can choose exactly how high I want to jump, I can choose if I want to rotate in mid air, not just horizontally, but vertically too, so if I'm jumping at a high speed I rotate my legs forward to catch a more solid landing without sprawling forward, or choose to rotate back so when I land I can continue running. I can choose to do short controlled hops, I can choose to jump exactly 4 feet, I can choose to jump exactly 6 feet... I choose at the beginning of every motion exactly the speed and jump height I need to successfully complete that motion. That's why I can relatively easily run an obstacle course, or scale balance beams. I even have the option in many situations to grab nearby objects and significantly alter my trajectory and velocity. This blatantly, and outright, cannot be accurately simulated with 4 binary movement keys, a single binary jump and duck key, and a freelook mechanism. It's not even close to possible. Simply put, that is why you need bunnyhopping (or something equally deep) in a game like NS, because unlike most other shooters which focus primarily on accuracy and sight tactics (which rarely requires in combat movement, when it isn't outright demanding that you don't move or leave cover while in combat), NS is focused on movement and position tactics (IE, it doesn't really matter immensely if my opponent sees me, as long as I can out maneuver him and take the better positioning). Every alien class is either made or broken on how efficiently they control their movement and how effectively they approach their opponent, and because every alien class is so heavily focused on movement, marines are forced in turn to be heavily focused on movement. They must dodge fast moving attackers, they must race to tactically adventagious spots before their opponents can approach, the simply and unavoidable truth is that because NS is a melee vs ranged game, tactical shooter controls are just outright and completely inadequate for the game. They don't come close to simulating realistic motion, and they leave out every aspect of realistic motion that is important for a game like this. I need to be able to sprint to a spot, I need to be able to jump over obstacles and land on tight margins, the inescapable conclusion is that NS MUST HAVE AIR CONTROL OR IT WILL NOT WORK. Air control is the only thing that even comes close to emulating the physical range of motion needed to make such complicated movement dynamics work. And the fact is that there is no way to have air control and still have a completely realistic FPS in this generation of gaming, simply due to the constraints of the input device.
On Bunny Hopping specifically: The tempting conclusion then, especially for those of us who have learned and mastered some level of bunny hopping, is that bunny hopping is the only way to make a game like NS work well. Unfortunately, with this I must disagree. There are several things about bunnyhopping that I think hurt the game ultimately. It's an unfortunate side effect of a system where air control is absolutely and totally necessary in order to make the title feasible and fun. Basically, my complaints are as follows... Bunny hopping is game dominating. There are many many other movement techniques the game could be promoting, but because bunnyhopping gives such a massive speed advantage most of them are overlooked. We see incredibly clearly when we look at lifeforms like the lerk and fade, which if bhopping is used at all it's used as a supplementary rather than a staple... bhopping is this movement technique that isn't incredibly logical to begin with, and arbitrarily forms a gap between new players and experienced players. There is no smooth and logical learning slope to mastering bhopping... it's really like hammering your head into a wall, and until you've seen it a hundred times it doesn't start making sense. Ideally the movement systems, especially for the aliens, would ease players into those types of more advanced techniques, not just arbitrarily deny them game ability until they learn it. In my mind unless the game can find a way to clearly document the relationship between strafing in mid air and rotating the mouse in the same direction, it probably shouldn't give you forward speed for doing it... In hellgate london you can bunnyhop in terms of air control by just holding forward and aiming the mouse where you want it to go... it's not quite as responsive a system ultimately, but it's more forgiving to new players and still provides enough air control to perform precise air manuevers (in some cases more control). Then there's also the plethora of games that just install some other method of exceeding the maximum speed of bunnyhopping without actually removing it or tampering with it at all. Many games have a sprint system that basically just runs you double the normal walk speed with the disadvantage of being unable to jump or shoot while using it. Basically everything for air control and bunnyhopping is still there, but because there's another way to get places faster, they aren't used as aggressively, and are more of a tactical choice as opposed to a necessary skill. I don't personally think I'm incredibly fond of those systems... since ultimately IMO they are basically still creating a skill gap, just leveling it more artificially... still, the point is there is other options, and I think there's actually alot of stuff that could be getting done in addition to bunny hopping as well in terms of movement techniques that aren't currently being explored by any game.
At least it needs some tutorials to get people familiar with the method.
Learning curve needs readjustmend. I could see a dash key added to give players some starting speed for the hop. Advanced players could still use the mouse movement for the better starting speed. For example the dash could give you a short timed speed of 350 (280 being the running speed of a skulk, I think). Still, you could get the maximium speed of 400+ for the starting jump by something similar to the present system. The Quake-styled jump timing is great too.
The animations and jumping should be built so that they don't break the immersion.
Anything else?
Make the game fun not realistic, CS was better prior to all the changes. (1.3)
NS has destoyed my gaming experience forever.
Now, that's not the most horrible thing in those contexts. Those games are almost all tactical shooters (or exclusively single player)... in tactical shooters it's not horrendous if the movement controls aren't crisp, because you're not supposed to move at all while in combat, movement is just the method of getting to your next cover spot. Most tactical shooters are basically flat, with the occasional stairway. They generally take place in fairly sterile local's (with some exceptions, like crysis, which is just a horrendously weak game). They're a very poor comparison to the industrial utilitarian landscapes we're used to from many NS maps, chock full of elevation changes, ladders, machinery, and railings.
Nov: did you seriously argue that because you can freelook you don't feel heavy? Seriously... how the hell are they supposed to simulate lookspring mechanics with a device as non responsive as a computer mouse?
^ would that be consistent (hold jump, hit the ground, automatic jump(bounce), hit the ground, bounce, hit the ground, bounce, etc.) or just the one-off (hold jump, hit the ground, automatic jump, hit the ground, stay - which would just mean you'd just have to release and re-press the jump key on the first bounce to get a second bounce, then repeat for the third, etc.)?
(edit: quote added [because of second page])
I want to see the models fixed as it stand right now, you can get some fairly long and or rapid and short bunny hops going, but the issue being the animation is ether rapidly jumping if climbing up elevation, or you get this mass hang time in mid air, fix the animations.
whos to say mouse looking in mid air cant have a diff animation from mouse looking on the ground, or the the two cant easly blend, or that the animations activate and arnt cut short or dont have any carry on when sailing though the air at top speed, g's most of those could have two or three animations to aid in there look and feel, right now its very 3d arcade, thats ok i dont mind it, but it can get tiresome on the eyes when everythings jumping around look like the old 2d donkey kong
I like bhop, I just wish less people would bind there jumps, show some skill have some back bone, get arthritis before your 30.
Point totally missed, NS isn’t a tactical shooter and I wouldn’t consider CS to be one either. (more of a DM) Besides CS jumping system stinks, every time you jump its like you sprain your ankle and cant move. What made CS fun was its compromise with realism, If people want to play a realistic game they can play Ghost Recon. (which I do enjoy)
Maybe a reference to weighing 300lbs wasn't the correct analogy, maybe a feeling like you're playing MechWarrior would be better.
Bunny hopping skulks are almost as easy to kill as strait lining skulks, on a server with reg. BH is more of a means of transportation, most descent players don’t BH into combat except on pubs where aim can be bad and deaths don’t really mean much. Most times a walking strafing skulk is more effective than a BH skulk.
Perhaps my finest moment was at a Marine outpost prepping for siege of a Hive. The floor had been mined to keep the skulks away. Intending to suicide on the mines for the team, I leaped in as a Skulk and bounced off the walls of the corridor while tearing through 4 Marines, only dying after all the Marines were gone and I hit the ground, landing on a mine. Needless to say the other players promptly cleaned out the siege point.
Bhop is also pretty interesting. It can give the scouting a nice advantage, and allows the distance to be closed between Alien and dinner. However, before I entered the world of bhoppers, I played regularly at a LAN party, and the two aliens who stood out were a ceiling camper and a zig zag skulk who was known to run up walls on his way to you, both who could rip the Marine teams to shreds. It's not that the Marines were weak or couldn't, it's just that smart play can give a strong edge without the need of a finicky bhopping routine.
So what's needed is to change bunnyhop so it only requires one button + movement keys + mouse direction. I would suggest changing the jumping system to a queued-up jump system like Quake 3. This simplified the actual complexity of user input required to successfully manage a bunny hop, but does not detract from the on-the-fly decision-making and flexibility of choosing where to land your jumps.
Honestly though, I think the BIG problem people have with learning bhop is adapting to using mousewheel to jump, or writing:
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->// HEADER: 4jump
alias jump "+jump; wait; -jump"
alias +4jump "+moveup; jump; wait; jump; wait; jump; wait; +jump; wait; +jump"
alias -4jump "-moveup; -jump"<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
I mean it's pretty ridiculous to expect new players to get through something like that. If jumping were set up like quake, I think the system would become demonstratively simpler and more intuitive, and people might even end up enjoying themselves without noticing.
PS: Looking at it now, I think my own script is actually coded with some errors, and although they shouldn't really interfere with its usability, it underscores my point - requiring users to script a hop, or bind it to what is essentially a hardware macro, to get the most out of their game experience is pretty rough.
better (context-specific?) animations, (though it would still look kinda stupid, esp. for a marine to be hopping around to places - will it be made redundant by sprinting?)
tutorial (or making the info readily available)
and a queued-up jumping system (and/or other ways to make bhop more intuitive) [btw, with this, it's the same question i posed to Underwhelmed, which is it? do you release and press jump on the way up again, or do you just hold jump and bounce?]
this is just in relation to bhop.
but i'm still all for other movement abilities, whether as a replacement for, or just addition to, bhop.
but i'm still all for other movement abilities, whether as a replacement for, or just addition to, bhop.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Quake-styled jumping has been suggested quite often. Basically you press down your jump key midair and hold it and the next jump is instant after landing. After that you need to release the jump and press it down again to get the next jump done. Very effective and inuitive.
The new movement abilities are great. One of the great things about ns is that the movement creates a lot of possibilities for fights and positioning. The new methods could add up even more and create interesting combinations with the old ones. However, a single sprint key or dodge manouvre isn't going to replace bhop and air control system when it comes to depth, creativity and skill intensity.
So <!--coloro:lime--><span style="color:lime"><!--/coloro-->for example, if I were frustrated with trying to bhop, I could instead press and hold mouse2 for a second (the charge is a critical element since bhop also takes time to "charge up" via acceleration) and it would initiate a dash of some form <b>that could not be improved with airspeed control</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->. The inability to improve it is what makes this idea reasonable, because otherwise it just becomes another way to dominate at the vet level, and I don't want the game to turn into rocket-skulks.
The dash wouldn't be significant, but might be enough to hop just past the the RT itself on the elevated area in south loop just so a new player isn't totally out of luck. It might drain say, half to 3/4 of your energy, and it might end up being a very rarely used mechanism for competitive players, though I would imagine that it would pale in comparison to bhop.
Kind of an opportunity cost, so bhop would still be valuable to the most elite players, and could still be used for bdropping and getting around the map, because other abilities (like leap or parasite) would be turned-off by the cost of using the speed boost, but the newest (or least interested) players could still get the boost if they needed it as a sort of crutch.
<!--coloro:lime--><span style="color:lime"><!--/coloro-->In this way you gain virtually all the benefits of the removal of bhop for the newer players, but keep it in for the people who want to play at higher levels<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> without compromising their effectiveness.