remiremedy [blu.knight]Join Date: 2003-11-18Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester
edited September 2008
<!--quoteo(post=1687045:date=Sep 1 2008, 12:31 AM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lolfighter @ Sep 1 2008, 12:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1687045"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Any enemy you can only beat by rolling a natural twenty is not really an enemy you can beat.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Except the formula is more complex than that. It's not "rolling a natural twenty". It's rolling some number determined by how long you've been alive and/or your k:d ratio.
My point... It's not just undiscriminating randomness.
Players tend to not truthfully and accurately state a numerical value of their skill with various classes, so I cannot be sure that I have ever seen equally skilled demomen and scouts fight each other. Sometimes one wins, sometimes the other. Sometimes one of them escapes and neither dies. Tendentially, I would say that the scout has slightly better odds, though a single grenade hit can turn the fight around instantly.
Either way, I don't see your point. So demomen are weak against scouts. And? Heavies are weak against snipers. Medics are weak against many classes. All classes have strengths and weaknesses. And crit rockets are still retardedly overpowered.
thing is eediot, the scout can crit you too and if they do it at close range with their scatter they can preeeeetty much one-shot you. Therefore it's not really your ace in the hole (especially as you have no control over it whatsoever) =P
I've been getting killed by random heavy crits from miles away recently. They're those situations where a heavy you didn't notice off in the distance starts firing at you and you're like "ick, it's ok, I'll be out of line of sight before they really hurt me much" then BAM! Critstream of insta-death!
Soldier crit rockets no longer bother me seeing as they're as likely to have it bounced back in their face as actually hit me with it XD
Generally if I get a crit it's like ~shrug~. If I get crit it's often rather annoying.
Obviously it's part of the game and not going anywhere so I've long learned to live with it but if they suddenly vanished I wouldn't shed any tears =3
AbraWould you kindlyJoin Date: 2003-08-17Member: 19870Members
I like crits because, when killed by them, I think "well, 5 sec... respawn!" but when I get crits, I feel godly, moving down enemy after enemy with my minigun.
non-crit demonades can instagib scouts, but the falloff and random damage makes it unlikely Unless you meant stickies, which always instagib scouts, with crits just letting them do so from across the ######ing room.
By the way, there are nocrit servers, so if you want to see what it's like, try one of them. And hope it's not full of crappy players.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited September 2008
The only crits I like are from the axtinguisher, but then again. Melee is still stupid as hell in TF2 with the long range <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
Yep that's probably the most annoying thing ingame, the melee range... A close second are crits, especially in the situation where you have a nice shootout (soldier vs soldier for instance) only to be critshotted randomly. If I shoot a crit , I feel bad. It just is not a real victory, in my book...
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited September 2008
Nope cause that is his own fault and discision to type in the mids of battle, has nothing to do with game-mechanics interfering in any way. But in a fair battle to randomly poop out a crit to "wtfpwn" your opponent. Well it just doesn't feel like I had the last say in the outcome, it feels more like a "haha you die cause I won the diceroll"
I want to actually kill them wit hits and not splashdamage or lady luck... A game should not interfer with gameplay like that...
Heavies really get kicked up a notch in usefulness on nocrit servers. Sure they can't do their surprise beam of a lot of freakin death but as they are almost always hit by the opponent they face, the beefy health actually does a difference when not suddenly critted. Even a sniper has trouble headshotting several heavies shooting towards him. 4 or more heavies on the cart simulates a NS Heavy train but now with an actual train(cart).
remiremedy [blu.knight]Join Date: 2003-11-18Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester
edited September 2008
<!--quoteo(post=1687052:date=Sep 1 2008, 04:57 AM:name=eediot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(eediot @ Sep 1 2008, 04:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1687052"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Right except TF2 is balanced in scissors > paper > rock format and imperfectly at that. Have you played enough of the game to see what happens when a scout goes up against an equally skilled demo 1v1? Or do you want me to explain the limitations of each class?
(Demoman is the one with the grenades etc)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm not sure what your point is here. The nature of rps is not that every class has an equal chance against any other. It is that every class has a counter and no class is the ultimate choice.
I think in demo vs scout the scout normally wins, unless the demo gets lucky or the scout stupid. But then scout has its own counters, pyros and heavies. Heavies for long range, pyros for short.
Now both pyros and heavies have their own counters as well. That is the nature of rps, the odds should not favor one class over all others. There must be counters so if players are equal skill the class decision plays a crucial role in the outcome of the faceoff.
edit: <!--quoteo(post=1687054:date=Sep 1 2008, 06:38 AM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lolfighter @ Sep 1 2008, 06:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1687054"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Either way, I don't see your point. So demomen are weak against scouts. And? Heavies are weak against snipers. Medics are weak against many classes. All classes have strengths and weaknesses. And crit rockets are still retardedly overpowered.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> lolf is right, but the fact that they have strengths and weaknesses doesn't make it good in terms of rps balancing, the fact that there is no class which has strengths that outweigh their weaknesses does.
Soldier has no real counters imo, not even the sniper is a proper counter. A sniper can be distracted by shooting a rocket towards him, so he has to move and recharge. Snipers are also busy shooting heavies and if they are targeting a soldier you can rocket jump out of sight or strafe left and right fast enough for most ppl to miss. Pyros only win if they get in your face right behind a corner or such but it still isn't guaranteed every time to win. For demos you can rocketjump on their face and blow them away. Scouts you just have to hit once to take them off balance and blow them away with the second rocket. If you hit straight on they are likely to just run away. Heavies are easily killed by popping in and out of cover while firing. Engineers are no trouble less they hide behind their sentries as you cannot blow it up faster then they whack it. However, if you shoot just next to the sentry, or on the roof/wall, the splash will kill them and leave an easy kill on the turret. Spies are easily or accidentally killed/revealed by rockets, spy efficiency isn't really related to the spy but the victim. Snipers and medics get blown away as soon as you get close enough, or lucky.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
Hehe as a spy, I've been killed more by friendlies drawing fire even if I tell them to wait for me to get in position to sap the sentry (uber rush) then actual pyros flaming the area <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
Once I get going there is always the random player who walks along side you drawing fire... Mostly on close quarter maps, this is a problem...
remiremedy [blu.knight]Join Date: 2003-11-18Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester
<!--quoteo(post=1687076:date=Sep 1 2008, 10:32 AM:name=Svenpa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Svenpa @ Sep 1 2008, 10:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1687076"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Soldier has no real counters imo, not even the sniper is a proper counter. A sniper can be distracted by shooting a rocket towards him, so he has to move and recharge. Snipers are also busy shooting heavies and if they are targeting a soldier you can rocket jump out of sight or strafe left and right fast enough for most ppl to miss. Pyros only win if they get in your face right behind a corner or such but it still isn't guaranteed every time to win. For demos you can rocketjump on their face and blow them away. Scouts you just have to hit once to take them off balance and blow them away with the second rocket. If you hit straight on they are likely to just run away. Heavies are easily killed by popping in and out of cover while firing. Engineers are no trouble less they hide behind their sentries as you cannot blow it up faster then they whack it. However, if you shoot just next to the sentry, or on the roof/wall, the splash will kill them and leave an easy kill on the turret. Spies are easily or accidentally killed/revealed by rockets, spy efficiency isn't really related to the spy but the victim. Snipers and medics get blown away as soon as you get close enough, or lucky.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But why doesn't everyone play soldier if they have no counter? A team of mixed classes will beat a team completely of soldiers.
Anyways, I had issue with eediot's reasoning as to why, but I agree TF2 isn't perfectly balanced in terms of RPS. I think Soldier doesn't have a specific class that is its counter, though the teamplay is. With the Pyro's new weapon stuff, it helps to nerf the soldier. A heavy paired with a pyro and a medic can do a lot to stop soldiers. Pyros can just reflect so their teammates can hit the soldiers, the heavy can do damage at range even if the soldier is just popping out... and medics can help to negate the splash damage done!
remiremedy [blu.knight]Join Date: 2003-11-18Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester
<!--quoteo(post=1687086:date=Sep 1 2008, 03:38 PM:name=Geminosity)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Geminosity @ Sep 1 2008, 03:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1687086"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why doesn't everyone play soldier? Because people play games to have fun of course ;D<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think playing Soldier is pretty fun. Sometimes I'm dying too much because their are too many heavies/pyros/medics around and so I switch to sniper to keep my distance.
X_StickmanNot good enough for a custom title.Join Date: 2003-04-15Member: 15533Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1687084:date=Sep 1 2008, 08:30 PM:name=Psyke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Psyke @ Sep 1 2008, 08:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1687084"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But why doesn't everyone play soldier if they have no counter? A team of mixed classes will beat a team completely of soldiers.
Anyways, I had issue with eediot's reasoning as to why, but I agree TF2 isn't perfectly balanced in terms of RPS. I think Soldier doesn't have a specific class that is its counter, though the teamplay is. With the Pyro's new weapon stuff, it helps to nerf the soldier. A heavy paired with a pyro and a medic can do a lot to stop soldiers. Pyros can just reflect so their teammates can hit the soldiers, the heavy can do damage at range even if the soldier is just popping out... and medics can help to negate the splash damage done!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Somehow managed to get a pub server where our entire team decided to play a single class (changing class each round), just for a laugh. We decimated as soldiers. Absolutely nothing stood in our way, literally. Combined rocket fire destroys everything.
Maybe, but not everyone has/enjoys the skillsets involved in rocketting people in the face.
My flatmate for example plays spy. He likes being a sneaky person and dancing the dangerous line of running about behind enemy lines =3
for me, I like helping people (medic) and I have an almost unnatural draw to setting people on fire (pyro)... that plus I think the pyro is kinda cute =P
I'd never play soldier willingly. The character gets on my nerves and I'm soooo tired of rockets (every single FPS out there has a rocket launcher and it's usually one of the best you'll find scattered around the arena.)
<!--quoteo(post=1687038:date=Sep 1 2008, 12:03 AM:name=eediot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(eediot @ Sep 1 2008, 12:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1687038"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Crits are awesome and basically my ace-in-the-hole as a solo demoman against one or more scouts. Otherwise I'm absolutely buggered.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Your Queen card is always to sticky jump away the second you see them coming, though.
Scouts have been nerfed repeatedly since the Beta, they're not that powerful against most classes. The main reason they're used in clan wars is not to kill but to harass and delay at the front line and to sneak to the next CP when a cap is in progress. Scout is naturally better than a few classes, but very underpowered against other classes, so I don't see a major problem. This game does have 'team' in the title, afterall.
Crits add nothing to the 'team' concept and can undermine hard-worked defences where both teams are more or less even. The game already gives a massive bonus in respawn time to the attacking team, so crits don't really do that much extra to break stalemates in my opinion. They do help break them, but they do it in a random and unfair way. Critzkrieg, Uber, Spy and Sniper are far less unfair ways of breaking through chokepoints (crits everything, uber past sentries, sap the SG, shoot the Engy on the SG so he can't repair it).
(Random) crits don't add anything to the game other than dumb it down. Instead of forcing players to play better together, use more advanced tactics, balance their team's classes sensibly, etc. often it just allows bad or below-par skill and decision-making to win or, worse still, somehow end in a stalemate when one team should have just edged it. The idea that two equal teams can't have fun fighting a fierce battle over the same area for 10 minutes or more makes me feel undervalued as a gamer. Which are the best moments in NS? The long, close-fought games or the short, inevitable victories?
Whatever you say about random crits, they swing both ways, so there's absolutely no argument that they help. Sometimes they will aid the winning team, others they will aid the losing team. Sometimes they will kill 5 people on the last CP just about to rightfully win the round and draw it out for a few more minutes, others it will give the defending team even less chance of putting up a fight (consider the respawn times).
If you don't like them, there are servers out there that have them removed. There are even some that remove them just for Arena mode. Put 'nocrits' into the tag field of your custom server search.
--- As for Soldiers, their main enemy is their lack of ammo and the fact they are much weaker when below you. Ever since the nerf you have to be really careful not to run out of rockets or shells. If you catch a Soldier low on ammo they aren't that tricky to deal with, they just take more shots that other classes to finish off. Since their rockets become completely useless when fired from below, they are forced to rocket jump and sacrifice health to take you on on an even footing if you occupy the higher ground.
And I don't agree with Svenpa's assessment of Sniper versus Soldier. Soldiers are harder to headshot than Heavies, but without a Medic to heal them up you can snapshot, dodge rocket: /rinse-repeat from distance. They're big enough that you can just get easy snapshot torso shots on them as they approach. If the Sniper is on the upper ground, the Soldier has no way of getting splash damage on him. Just don't stand right in front of a wall or something they can splash damage on. All this time they're losing rocket ammo, which means even if you don't fully take them down they shouldn't be around for much longer. If you see them going for an ammo or health pickup, that's your time to power-up and go for the full headshot. The key here is that the Sniper must position themself well to increase their chances of survival. Don't even dare venture into the middle ground or you're giving the Soldier a chance at rocket jumping and closing the gap while shotgunning.
Other than the Sniper, the Pyro usually leaves the Soldier with little health after an encounter (again if they position themself to their advantage). Best to shotgun them from distance to begin with and let them waste a few rockets (if they're dumb) then rush in and hope they aren't a mean aim with their own shotty. Any time they reload their bazooka is when you should be closing the gap, especially if they are reloading from empty. A Soldier without rockets is basically a slower Pyro with a little bit more health and no flamethrower to contend with.
Savvy Scouts can pistol from range and the Soldier can't do much about it other than chip damage with the shotgun (which doesn't do as much damage at distance and isn't as accurate).
So I think there are counters to the Soldier, it's just most people don't play the Soldier enough to know its weaknesses.
Comments
Except the formula is more complex than that. It's not "rolling a natural twenty".
It's rolling some number determined by how long you've been alive and/or your k:d ratio.
My point... It's not just undiscriminating randomness.
Either way, I don't see your point. So demomen are weak against scouts. And? Heavies are weak against snipers. Medics are weak against many classes. All classes have strengths and weaknesses.
And crit rockets are still retardedly overpowered.
I've been getting killed by random heavy crits from miles away recently. They're those situations where a heavy you didn't notice off in the distance starts firing at you and you're like "ick, it's ok, I'll be out of line of sight before they really hurt me much" then BAM! Critstream of insta-death!
Soldier crit rockets no longer bother me seeing as they're as likely to have it bounced back in their face as actually hit me with it XD
Generally if I get a crit it's like ~shrug~. If I get crit it's often rather annoying.
Obviously it's part of the game and not going anywhere so I've long learned to live with it but if they suddenly vanished I wouldn't shed any tears =3
Unless you meant stickies, which always instagib scouts, with crits just letting them do so from across the ######ing room.
By the way, there are nocrit servers, so if you want to see what it's like, try one of them. And hope it's not full of crappy players.
Yep that's probably the most annoying thing ingame, the melee range... A close second are crits, especially in the situation where you have a nice shootout (soldier vs soldier for instance) only to be critshotted randomly. If I shoot a crit , I feel bad. It just is not a real victory, in my book...
Do you hesitate to backstab a typing engineer too?
I want to actually kill them wit hits and not splashdamage or lady luck... A game should not interfer with gameplay like that...
Generally it's still more fun without crits.
(Demoman is the one with the grenades etc)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not sure what your point is here. The nature of rps is not that every class has an equal chance against any other. It is that every class has a counter and no class is the ultimate choice.
I think in demo vs scout the scout normally wins, unless the demo gets lucky or the scout stupid.
But then scout has its own counters, pyros and heavies. Heavies for long range, pyros for short.
Now both pyros and heavies have their own counters as well. That is the nature of rps, the odds should not favor one class over all others. There must be counters so if players are equal skill the class decision plays a crucial role in the outcome of the faceoff.
edit:
<!--quoteo(post=1687054:date=Sep 1 2008, 06:38 AM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lolfighter @ Sep 1 2008, 06:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1687054"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Either way, I don't see your point. So demomen are weak against scouts. And? Heavies are weak against snipers. Medics are weak against many classes. All classes have strengths and weaknesses.
And crit rockets are still retardedly overpowered.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
lolf is right, but the fact that they have strengths and weaknesses doesn't make it good in terms of rps balancing, the fact that there is no class which has strengths that outweigh their weaknesses does.
Once I get going there is always the random player who walks along side you drawing fire... Mostly on close quarter maps, this is a problem...
But why doesn't everyone play soldier if they have no counter? A team of mixed classes will beat a team completely of soldiers.
Anyways, I had issue with eediot's reasoning as to why, but I agree TF2 isn't perfectly balanced in terms of RPS. I think Soldier doesn't have a specific class that is its counter, though the teamplay is. With the Pyro's new weapon stuff, it helps to nerf the soldier. A heavy paired with a pyro and a medic can do a lot to stop soldiers. Pyros can just reflect so their teammates can hit the soldiers, the heavy can do damage at range even if the soldier is just popping out... and medics can help to negate the splash damage done!
I think playing Soldier is pretty fun. Sometimes I'm dying too much because their are too many heavies/pyros/medics around and so I switch to sniper to keep my distance.
Anyways, I had issue with eediot's reasoning as to why, but I agree TF2 isn't perfectly balanced in terms of RPS. I think Soldier doesn't have a specific class that is its counter, though the teamplay is. With the Pyro's new weapon stuff, it helps to nerf the soldier. A heavy paired with a pyro and a medic can do a lot to stop soldiers. Pyros can just reflect so their teammates can hit the soldiers, the heavy can do damage at range even if the soldier is just popping out... and medics can help to negate the splash damage done!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v221/X_Stickman/Stuff/soldiers-1.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Somehow managed to get a pub server where our entire team decided to play a single class (changing class each round), just for a laugh. We decimated as soldiers. Absolutely nothing stood in our way, literally. Combined rocket fire destroys everything.
However, 11 spies on defence didn't do so well.
My flatmate for example plays spy. He likes being a sneaky person and dancing the dangerous line of running about behind enemy lines =3
for me, I like helping people (medic) and I have an almost unnatural draw to setting people on fire (pyro)... that plus I think the pyro is kinda cute =P
I'd never play soldier willingly. The character gets on my nerves and I'm soooo tired of rockets (every single FPS out there has a rocket launcher and it's usually one of the best you'll find scattered around the arena.)
Scouts have been nerfed repeatedly since the Beta, they're not that powerful against most classes. The main reason they're used in clan wars is not to kill but to harass and delay at the front line and to sneak to the next CP when a cap is in progress. Scout is naturally better than a few classes, but very underpowered against other classes, so I don't see a major problem. This game does have 'team' in the title, afterall.
Crits add nothing to the 'team' concept and can undermine hard-worked defences where both teams are more or less even. The game already gives a massive bonus in respawn time to the attacking team, so crits don't really do that much extra to break stalemates in my opinion. They do help break them, but they do it in a random and unfair way. Critzkrieg, Uber, Spy and Sniper are far less unfair ways of breaking through chokepoints (crits everything, uber past sentries, sap the SG, shoot the Engy on the SG so he can't repair it).
(Random) crits don't add anything to the game other than dumb it down. Instead of forcing players to play better together, use more advanced tactics, balance their team's classes sensibly, etc. often it just allows bad or below-par skill and decision-making to win or, worse still, somehow end in a stalemate when one team should have just edged it. The idea that two equal teams can't have fun fighting a fierce battle over the same area for 10 minutes or more makes me feel undervalued as a gamer. Which are the best moments in NS? The long, close-fought games or the short, inevitable victories?
Whatever you say about random crits, they swing both ways, so there's absolutely no argument that they help. Sometimes they will aid the winning team, others they will aid the losing team. Sometimes they will kill 5 people on the last CP just about to rightfully win the round and draw it out for a few more minutes, others it will give the defending team even less chance of putting up a fight (consider the respawn times).
If you don't like them, there are servers out there that have them removed. There are even some that remove them just for Arena mode. Put 'nocrits' into the tag field of your custom server search.
---
As for Soldiers, their main enemy is their lack of ammo and the fact they are much weaker when below you. Ever since the nerf you have to be really careful not to run out of rockets or shells. If you catch a Soldier low on ammo they aren't that tricky to deal with, they just take more shots that other classes to finish off. Since their rockets become completely useless when fired from below, they are forced to rocket jump and sacrifice health to take you on on an even footing if you occupy the higher ground.
And I don't agree with Svenpa's assessment of Sniper versus Soldier. Soldiers are harder to headshot than Heavies, but without a Medic to heal them up you can snapshot, dodge rocket: /rinse-repeat from distance. They're big enough that you can just get easy snapshot torso shots on them as they approach. If the Sniper is on the upper ground, the Soldier has no way of getting splash damage on him. Just don't stand right in front of a wall or something they can splash damage on. All this time they're losing rocket ammo, which means even if you don't fully take them down they shouldn't be around for much longer. If you see them going for an ammo or health pickup, that's your time to power-up and go for the full headshot. The key here is that the Sniper must position themself well to increase their chances of survival. Don't even dare venture into the middle ground or you're giving the Soldier a chance at rocket jumping and closing the gap while shotgunning.
Other than the Sniper, the Pyro usually leaves the Soldier with little health after an encounter (again if they position themself to their advantage). Best to shotgun them from distance to begin with and let them waste a few rockets (if they're dumb) then rush in and hope they aren't a mean aim with their own shotty. Any time they reload their bazooka is when you should be closing the gap, especially if they are reloading from empty. A Soldier without rockets is basically a slower Pyro with a little bit more health and no flamethrower to contend with.
Savvy Scouts can pistol from range and the Soldier can't do much about it other than chip damage with the shotgun (which doesn't do as much damage at distance and isn't as accurate).
So I think there are counters to the Soldier, it's just most people don't play the Soldier enough to know its weaknesses.