locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1672344:date=Mar 6 2008, 03:00 PM:name=darktimes)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darktimes @ Mar 6 2008, 03:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1672344"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->JK2 3rd person fits in JK2, but NS2 is NATURAL SELECTION 2. It should still feel like natural selection, and 3rd person is NOT NATURAL SELECTION's style.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually, I agree. On the other hand I think a third person skulk view would make the skulk much easier to play. I guess what I'm saying is, even though I like the current system and would be perfectly content if I ended up staring at the skulk's gums while getting a tasty TSA snack, I am open to the idea of a 3rd person camera view because it would make skulking much easier.
I've piped in on discussions like this before and in my sincere humble opinion from playing a lot of different games:
- Ranged combat is best in the first person view.
- Melee combat, sneaking, use of cover, and jumping from platform to platform (or other forms of what I think of as acrobatics, parkour or free running) are best in the third person view.
I like how it was handled in a game like Splinter Cell, when I needed to know if I was hidden behind a box or if I was fully in the shadow, I could see it on and around my player model in the game but if I needed to make a precision shot I was essentially in first person. I liked switching between views in Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind as well, especially when I needed to run and gun melee and not get hung up on some object in the enviroment or use something for cover against a spell or arrows.
There is something I find really odd about the argument that third person is not natural to the Natural Selection game that Unknown Worlds has made, don't we use 3rd person view already with things like motion tracking, hive sight, and Commander view? Is it really that much of a stretch of imagination for a fictional Kharaa alien to be able to have an out of body experience and have their senses extend beyond their body so they can "view" around themselves, even around corners? What if a tiny camera did float behind a marine - its not like current day tech doesn't try to see around corners for our modern day warriors.
Truth be told, I hate the frustration of my bites, swings, or gores missing my target because I lack a good reference for how close I need to be for that bite to hit. Yes, there are solutions for that in first person, but from my own experience they don't come close to the full senses inclusion feel I get from 3rd person view. And that is even before I lose sight of my target before the fangs snap together, ugh, current skulk is a lesson in frustration and lack of 3rd person view only one of the reasons. But hey, I should just be happy for all the elite skulk players right and ignore my own experiences with NS mod? Don't get me wrong, I love playing NS, have for years, but gorge ( and lerk a close second ) are my favourite life forms for good reasons.
La ChupacabraJoin Date: 2008-02-25Member: 63729Members
<!--quoteo(post=1672431:date=Mar 7 2008, 10:50 AM:name=darktimes)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darktimes @ Mar 7 2008, 10:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1672431"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->its not that good player become better
its that new players have a cance to learn the game
when they cant got two bites becouse the lose theyre target and die they leave<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
well not really. When I first started to play NS I went to the alien team. After 3 minutes I changed to Marines becuase, indeed, it was hard to attack and I didn't know what was happening around me. But as you can see, I'm still here and I love this game <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1672339:date=Mar 6 2008, 02:50 PM:name=Radix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Radix @ Mar 6 2008, 02:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1672339"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But I don't agree with you that a thirdperson cam decision should be made as a factor of the range of a given attack - I still think it's much more relevant that the class attacks as a melee unit, rather than with a gun.
In fact carrying that to its logical conclusion, the longer range you have, the less need there is for a thirdperson camera, ergo, NS actually needs it more than JK2 did.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Mmmm.. I think I used the wrong phrasing. What I meant was, in JK2 you had many different saber attacks.. For example, single movement swings and combination strafe swings, all with their own different variations and areas of effect. This in itself requires 3rd person view due to the fact that your weapon is moving <i>around</i> you, not directly hitting whats in your crosshair.
NS doesn't follow that principle. Whats in front of you is what you hit, as there is only one form of attack (gore, bite, etc.) So theoretically having 3rd person view would do nothing but confuse the player even more because it would be a lot harder to actually land a bite. Imagine playing as a fade with 3rd person view.. It just wouldn't work. Same thing goes for a leaping skulk. Sure, it would be handy to know what you look like on your current surroundings/environment, but TBH it would only make combat and/or actual gameplay harder, not to mention the fact that people would just hold down attack and move around (*cough* Hellgate:London - Blademaster/Blue lightsaber stance in JK2.)
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1672438:date=Mar 7 2008, 07:17 AM:name=La Chupacabra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(La Chupacabra @ Mar 7 2008, 07:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1672438"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well not really, when I first started to play NS I went to the alien team. After 3 minutes I changed to Marines because, indeed, it was hard to attack. I didn't know what was happening around me but, as you can see, I'm still here and I love this game <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, but not everyone sticks with a game when it's hard at the beginning. Most don't, and that set would, by definition, be underrepresented here.
... Odd, those times I have had to hit something right in front of me in third person view have been easier, especially since it feels akin to me as having my peripheral vision restored to me, where as first person view feels like tunnel vision, which is perfectly fine when I am staring down a iron sight trying to make a precision shot.
The only time 3rd person has failed me has been with fixed cameras and odd controls, like Resident Evil games, or when the camera seems to get blinded in a wall, like Tomb Raider games.
I am just stumped by this hatred for 3rd person view when it used to good effect in many melee oriented, sneaky, or acrobatic games.
The problems with 3d camera that instantly jump into view:
- Can see around corners - Can see around corners - Extremely hard to aim leap attacks (considering celerity skulk movement speed) & impossible to blink w/o 1st person view - Need to revert to 1st person view for ranged attacks, this would be immersion breaking and disorienting - When bunnyhopping/moving around corners quickly you will be placed at a HUGE disadvantage because you'll have a wall obstructing your vision whereas in first person you can see around the corner as soon as you turn it. (Badly phrased, I know) - Immersion (Hi, last time I checked skulks didn't have eyes trailing 5 feet behind them)
<!--quoteo(post=1672562:date=Mar 8 2008, 12:09 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Harimau @ Mar 8 2008, 12:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1672562"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've seen "third person" over-the-shoulder "first person shooters". They look pretty ######.
Well, that's not fair. They have advantages and disadvantages. But they still look pretty ######. No one, imo, has managed to do it right, yet.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed, when I shoot or use ranged weapons of any kind that demand any kind of skill with accuracy, first person view is king.
The only reason I bring up 3rd person view is because of melee, sneaky, and using cover being so important to the Kharaa, since they are trying to get the one up on the marine who has incredible ranged advantages over them. The only times I want the 1st person view as a Kharaa is spitting or parasite, everything else I would have a good time with in 3rd person but even then, the use of the mouse to aim the head while I control the character's body with the keyboard I have found to be very easy to use.
A lot of the problems I have with the loss of peripheral vision in first person view could probably be alleviated though if it was possible to see more of the model when you look around, like if you look down, you see your feet or something like that, it helps give a point of reference for depth perception and the knowledge of where your model is in relation to the map enviroment so you can know if part of you is peeking out from cover and thus vulnerable to ranged attack.
just let us see marines and aliens when we bite, ok? that can be performt whit my suggestion:
<!--quoteo(post=1672189:date=Mar 5 2008, 04:10 PM:name=darktimes)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darktimes @ Mar 5 2008, 04:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1672189"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->but i hope its darker as NS1
it should not like ep1 zombie capter but nearly on it
that a flashlight have his use and the hivesight/alien normal sight can recive a boost
<a href="http://www.hidden-source.com/media/ingame/617aura.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.hidden-source.com/media/ingame/617aura.jpg</a> but plz not white normal sight but brighter ________________________________ also health status report
that the alien know which target is hurt ( make ambushes easier. "hey fade, attack the orange guy, we take the red" )<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
small addition whit sceant of fear you can see this "aura" through walls
and you can see this "aura" through this theets/mounth
La ChupacabraJoin Date: 2008-02-25Member: 63729Members
<!--quoteo(post=1672464:date=Mar 7 2008, 05:23 PM:name=Domining)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Domining @ Mar 7 2008, 05:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1672464"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problems with 3d camera that instantly jump into view:
- Can see around corners - Can see around corners<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--QuoteBegin-'La Chupacabra'+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE('La Chupacabra')</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Guys at The Specialists mod for HL1 managed to get around this (if you wouldn't see sth in first person view you won't see it in 3rd view neither! Of course you see the walls and other map-related things, but you don't see the player models etc.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(puzl)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes, this is possible. You still determine visibility of an object from the eye position even though you render the scene from the view position.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not being able to see only models around corners only brings more problems to the table. 3rd person view isn't a good solution to everything.
About the pro-3rd person arguments:
1) You can see your model so it is easier to hide around corners: Hiding your model/rotating your model is extremely easy to learn. It comes with a tiny bit of practice.
2) Aiming melee in 3rd person is easier No it isn't. Maybe if your melee attack covered a 45degree arc then it'd be a little easier because you'd always know where your enemy is in relation to your 'face'. But that would effectively take the skill out of aiming your bites/swipes.
<!--quoteo(post=1672464:date=Mar 7 2008, 12:23 PM:name=Domining)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Domining @ Mar 7 2008, 12:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1672464"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Problems with 1st person view:
- Optimized for ranged combat on a melee class - Gives the impression of unpolished design to anyone who's used a 3rdperson camera for any time at all - Occludes senses that you would have otherwise, that would make the game more dynamic - Offers far less precision in advanced levels of play, whereas a 3rdpersoncam grants better overall action to the play experience<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is no good way to simulate the air wiffs and spatial senses that you get in a close combat situation that allow you to react (beyond seeing), but a thirdperson camera comes close.
ellos peoples, this is a topic close to my heart, well hopefully closer to a marines heart, i have been playing for quite a while, i am not some leet noob pwner who practise that best method of killing someone over and over again and always ######s fade, ill try new things and die, and that being said while trying new things ill quite offtan bite a marine whos just bunny hoped, those teeth do get in the way, he was there when i bite him were is he now, turning 90 degrees to bite him a second time or turning 270 degrees while he fills me with uranium slugs is a huge differance. transparaent and kharaa flash light reactive and or scent reactive teeth would help, i enjoy the view point sort of it could be less cluttered, i dont know why its not a over the nose shot but these arnt the things that piss me off with the skulk view.
WHY THE FRUCK is the view point situated in side the body past the shoulders, for christ sackes 30% of the skulks hit box sticks out before the view point can see around courners, that means that your trying to bite a up right rectangular hit box thats trying to knife horozontal rectangular hit box, now look at it, tall vertical box looks down on low horozontal box, who has the hight advantage, whos knife has free range over a entire hit box area not to mention 30% of its body before its view point / attack point.
its a kin to killing a snake with a shovel,
leap isnt as effective as it could be esp on a skulk, one which ever direction you look in the marines knows were you leaping, and to make leap effective to dodge all the fires coming at you, you need to force the marine to have to track a rapidly moving object over a large area forceing a marine to turn on the spot and always staying out of his view point is ideal, yet you cant achive this cos he can see were your about to leap to, and while your looking to leap to a new area your cross hairs not on the marine to land the bite, this has two effects, if the marine who doesnt need to be meleeing you sees were your going can do the counter manouver to keep you at distance, he doesnt need his cross hair on you at this time, but it would be nice, once hes done said action he now has the ranged and hight advantage again, and we all know how far leaping at the center of a marines screen will get a skulk, esp if that marine has a shot gun.
Its flawed, it always has been, it would be nice to see it fixed third person wouldnt do it, but haveing a view point and attack point further out of the skulks body would make ambushing a lot more efficent and effective, cos wow i can pop out around courners and duck back without being pistal whiped by some leet rine with a script.
the differance being, without motion and scent, that marines can hear me aprotching the courner, stand back at range and wait, me as a skulk cant hear the marines unless hes jumping around like a tard, yet i am hindered and cant look around the courner to get a visual on him with out 30% of my hit box sticking out.
<a href="http://fc05.deviantart.com/fs19/f/2007/278/f/8/notright_by_NEX17.jpg" target="_blank">http://fc05.deviantart.com/fs19/f/2007/278...ht_by_NEX17.jpg</a> right now the red line is were the current skulk view point and attack point is it really needs to be were the blue line is, the diffrance this change would make would be phenominal, the diffrance being takeing 1 or two pistal bullets from stickign a tiny bit of your nose out getting a visual, till haveing a marine wait till you get all your nose out you dont get a visual, and emptying a pistal clip in you as you try to pull back.
dead skulk with no visual of enemy armor less skulk who knows were the enemy is
<!--quoteo(post=1672600:date=Mar 8 2008, 12:27 PM:name=Radix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Radix @ Mar 8 2008, 12:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1672600"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's why you implement a floating crosshair to show where you're aiming<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you used a crosshair to lightsaber duel you'd lose 9.9/10 fights. It's all about hitting with sweetspots and abusing camera angles to make your weapon hit (as the weapon moves around when you move the camera/mouse). The only thing you would need a crosshair for is for deflecting projectiles back at the shooter, which I can't see Kharaa lifeforms doing.
And for the record, I'll say it again: <b>NS uses straight-forward attacks.</b> There is no variation, so 3rd person Isn't needed. If they were to put variated attacks in NS2 (I don't see how this would be beneficial and/or work anyways) it would do nothing but make the game more complicated and hard to play because melee attacks don't have a visual range of effect. You just hit whats in front of your face.
Oh, and using 3rd person would make any type of high-speed orientated lifeform - which happens to be the main attribute of the Kharaa offensive units - useless due to the fact that you would never be able to get a hit off unless you were moving at walk speed.
genius post NEX9 everything is right what you said
naggy have you read my post? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
Yeah but NS2 won't likely have <b>near</b> the subtlety of melee that JK2 had, so the crosshair would probably work fine - especially considering there won't (likely) be blocking or parrying, or states of readiness.
<!--quoteo(post=1672664:date=Mar 9 2008, 01:03 AM:name=naggy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(naggy @ Mar 9 2008, 01:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1672664"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh, and using 3rd person would make any type of high-speed orientated lifeform - which happens to be the main attribute of the Kharaa offensive units - useless due to the fact that you would never be able to get a hit off unless you were moving at walk speed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What is anyone basing this on? You blink and aim just like always.
<!--quoteo(post=1672658:date=Mar 8 2008, 09:59 PM:name=NEX9)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(NEX9 @ Mar 8 2008, 09:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1672658"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->ellos peoples, this is a topic close to my heart, well hopefully closer to a marines heart, i have been playing for quite a while, i am not some leet noob pwner who practise that best method of killing someone over and over again and always ######s fade, ill try new things and die, and that being said while trying new things ill quite offtan bite a marine whos just bunny hoped, those teeth do get in the way, he was there when i bite him were is he now, turning 90 degrees to bite him a second time or turning 270 degrees while he fills me with uranium slugs is a huge differance. transparaent and kharaa flash light reactive and or scent reactive teeth would help, i enjoy the view point sort of it could be less cluttered, i dont know why its not a over the nose shot but these arnt the things that piss me off with the skulk view.
WHY THE FRUCK is the view point situated in side the body past the shoulders, for christ sackes 30% of the skulks hit box sticks out before the view point can see around courners, that means that your trying to bite a up right rectangular hit box thats trying to knife horozontal rectangular hit box, now look at it, tall vertical box looks down on low horozontal box, who has the hight advantage, whos knife has free range over a entire hit box area not to mention 30% of its body before its view point / attack point.
its a kin to killing a snake with a shovel,
leap isnt as effective as it could be esp on a skulk, one which ever direction you look in the marines knows were you leaping, and to make leap effective to dodge all the fires coming at you, you need to force the marine to have to track a rapidly moving object over a large area forceing a marine to turn on the spot and always staying out of his view point is ideal, yet you cant achive this cos he can see were your about to leap to, and while your looking to leap to a new area your cross hairs not on the marine to land the bite, this has two effects, if the marine who doesnt need to be meleeing you sees were your going can do the counter manouver to keep you at distance, he doesnt need his cross hair on you at this time, but it would be nice, once hes done said action he now has the ranged and hight advantage again, and we all know how far leaping at the center of a marines screen will get a skulk, esp if that marine has a shot gun.
Its flawed, it always has been, it would be nice to see it fixed third person wouldnt do it, but haveing a view point and attack point further out of the skulks body would make ambushing a lot more efficent and effective, cos wow i can pop out around courners and duck back without being pistal whiped by some leet rine with a script.
the differance being, without motion and scent, that marines can hear me aprotching the courner, stand back at range and wait, me as a skulk cant hear the marines unless hes jumping around like a tard, yet i am hindered and cant look around the courner to get a visual on him with out 30% of my hit box sticking out.
<a href="http://fc05.deviantart.com/fs19/f/2007/278/f/8/notright_by_NEX17.jpg" target="_blank">http://fc05.deviantart.com/fs19/f/2007/278...ht_by_NEX17.jpg</a> right now the red line is were the current skulk view point and attack point is it really needs to be were the blue line is, the diffrance this change would make would be phenominal, the diffrance being takeing 1 or two pistal bullets from stickign a tiny bit of your nose out getting a visual, till haveing a marine wait till you get all your nose out you dont get a visual, and emptying a pistal clip in you as you try to pull back.
dead skulk with no visual of enemy armor less skulk who knows were the enemy is<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> WHY THE FRUCK
<!--quoteo(post=1672569:date=Mar 8 2008, 06:14 PM:name=CanadianWolverine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CanadianWolverine @ Mar 8 2008, 06:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1672569"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A lot of the problems I have with the loss of peripheral vision in first person view could probably be alleviated though if it was possible to see more of the model when you look around, like if you look down, you see your feet or something like that, it helps give a point of reference for depth perception and the knowledge of where your model is in relation to the map enviroment so you can know if part of you is peeking out from cover and thus vulnerable to ranged attack.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I want this. Yet.. I don't think anyone's going to attempt it any time soon. I want more periphery of vision.
Comments
but NS2 is NATURAL SELECTION
it should feel like natural selection
3rd person is NOT NATURAL SELECTION
Actually, I agree. On the other hand I think a third person skulk view would make the skulk much easier to play. I guess what I'm saying is, even though I like the current system and would be perfectly content if I ended up staring at the skulk's gums while getting a tasty TSA snack, I am open to the idea of a 3rd person camera view because it would make skulking much easier.
- Ranged combat is best in the first person view.
- Melee combat, sneaking, use of cover, and jumping from platform to platform (or other forms of what I think of as acrobatics, parkour or free running) are best in the third person view.
I like how it was handled in a game like Splinter Cell, when I needed to know if I was hidden behind a box or if I was fully in the shadow, I could see it on and around my player model in the game but if I needed to make a precision shot I was essentially in first person. I liked switching between views in Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind as well, especially when I needed to run and gun melee and not get hung up on some object in the enviroment or use something for cover against a spell or arrows.
There is something I find really odd about the argument that third person is not natural to the Natural Selection game that Unknown Worlds has made, don't we use 3rd person view already with things like motion tracking, hive sight, and Commander view? Is it really that much of a stretch of imagination for a fictional Kharaa alien to be able to have an out of body experience and have their senses extend beyond their body so they can "view" around themselves, even around corners? What if a tiny camera did float behind a marine - its not like current day tech doesn't try to see around corners for our modern day warriors.
Truth be told, I hate the frustration of my bites, swings, or gores missing my target because I lack a good reference for how close I need to be for that bite to hit. Yes, there are solutions for that in first person, but from my own experience they don't come close to the full senses inclusion feel I get from 3rd person view. And that is even before I lose sight of my target before the fangs snap together, ugh, current skulk is a lesson in frustration and lack of 3rd person view only one of the reasons. But hey, I should just be happy for all the elite skulk players right and ignore my own experiences with NS mod? Don't get me wrong, I love playing NS, have for years, but gorge ( and lerk a close second ) are my favourite life forms for good reasons.
its that new players have a cance to learn the game
when they cant got two bites becouse the lose theyre target and die
they leave
its that new players have a cance to learn the game
when they cant got two bites becouse the lose theyre target and die
they leave<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
well not really. When I first started to play NS I went to the alien team. After 3 minutes I changed to Marines becuase, indeed, it was hard to attack and I didn't know what was happening around me. But as you can see, I'm still here and I love this game <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
In fact carrying that to its logical conclusion, the longer range you have, the less need there is for a thirdperson camera, ergo, NS actually needs it more than JK2 did.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Mmmm.. I think I used the wrong phrasing. What I meant was, in JK2 you had many different saber attacks.. For example, single movement swings and combination strafe swings, all with their own different variations and areas of effect. This in itself requires 3rd person view due to the fact that your weapon is moving <i>around</i> you, not directly hitting whats in your crosshair.
NS doesn't follow that principle. Whats in front of you is what you hit, as there is only one form of attack (gore, bite, etc.) So theoretically having 3rd person view would do nothing but confuse the player even more because it would be a lot harder to actually land a bite. Imagine playing as a fade with 3rd person view.. It just wouldn't work. Same thing goes for a leaping skulk. Sure, it would be handy to know what you look like on your current surroundings/environment, but TBH it would only make combat and/or actual gameplay harder, not to mention the fact that people would just hold down attack and move around (*cough* Hellgate:London - Blademaster/Blue lightsaber stance in JK2.)
Yes, but not everyone sticks with a game when it's hard at the beginning. Most don't, and that set would, by definition, be underrepresented here.
The only time 3rd person has failed me has been with fixed cameras and odd controls, like Resident Evil games, or when the camera seems to get blinded in a wall, like Tomb Raider games.
I am just stumped by this hatred for 3rd person view when it used to good effect in many melee oriented, sneaky, or acrobatic games.
- Can see around corners
- Can see around corners
- Extremely hard to aim leap attacks (considering celerity skulk movement speed) & impossible to blink w/o 1st person view
- Need to revert to 1st person view for ranged attacks, this would be immersion breaking and disorienting
- When bunnyhopping/moving around corners quickly you will be placed at a HUGE disadvantage because you'll have a wall obstructing your vision whereas in first person you can see around the corner as soon as you turn it. (Badly phrased, I know)
- Immersion (Hi, last time I checked skulks didn't have eyes trailing 5 feet behind them)
Problems with 1st person view:
-
<a href="http://www.battlefield-heroes.com/" target="_blank">http://www.battlefield-heroes.com/</a>
They apparently like it.
They look pretty ######.
Well, that's not fair. They have advantages and disadvantages. But they still look pretty ######. No one, imo, has managed to do it right, yet.
They look pretty ######.
Well, that's not fair. They have advantages and disadvantages. But they still look pretty ######. No one, imo, has managed to do it right, yet.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed, when I shoot or use ranged weapons of any kind that demand any kind of skill with accuracy, first person view is king.
The only reason I bring up 3rd person view is because of melee, sneaky, and using cover being so important to the Kharaa, since they are trying to get the one up on the marine who has incredible ranged advantages over them. The only times I want the 1st person view as a Kharaa is spitting or parasite, everything else I would have a good time with in 3rd person but even then, the use of the mouse to aim the head while I control the character's body with the keyboard I have found to be very easy to use.
A lot of the problems I have with the loss of peripheral vision in first person view could probably be alleviated though if it was possible to see more of the model when you look around, like if you look down, you see your feet or something like that, it helps give a point of reference for depth perception and the knowledge of where your model is in relation to the map enviroment so you can know if part of you is peeking out from cover and thus vulnerable to ranged attack.
that can be performt whit my suggestion:
<!--quoteo(post=1672189:date=Mar 5 2008, 04:10 PM:name=darktimes)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darktimes @ Mar 5 2008, 04:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1672189"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->but i hope its darker as NS1
it should not like ep1 zombie capter but nearly on it
that a flashlight have his use
and the hivesight/alien normal sight can recive a boost
<a href="http://www.hidden-source.com/media/ingame/617aura.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.hidden-source.com/media/ingame/617aura.jpg</a>
but plz not white
normal sight but brighter
________________________________
also health status report
<!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro-->green<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> (100% - 70% )
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->orange<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> ( 70% - 40% )
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->red<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> ( 40% - 0% )
by the marines offcourse
that the alien know which target is hurt ( make ambushes easier. "hey fade, attack the orange guy, we take the red" )<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
small addition
whit sceant of fear you can see this "aura" through walls
and you can see this "aura" through this theets/mounth
- Can see around corners
- Can see around corners<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--QuoteBegin-'La Chupacabra'+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE('La Chupacabra')</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Guys at The Specialists mod for HL1 managed to get around this (if you wouldn't see sth in first person view you won't see it in 3rd view neither! Of course you see the walls and other map-related things, but you don't see the player models etc.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(puzl)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes, this is possible. You still determine visibility of an object from the eye position even though you render the scene from the view position.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
keep it simple and easy for the gamer and the devs
1person view
About the pro-3rd person arguments:
1) You can see your model so it is easier to hide around corners:
Hiding your model/rotating your model is extremely easy to learn. It comes with a tiny bit of practice.
2) Aiming melee in 3rd person is easier
No it isn't. Maybe if your melee attack covered a 45degree arc then it'd be a little easier because you'd always know where your enemy is in relation to your 'face'. But that would effectively take the skill out of aiming your bites/swipes.
<img src="http://www.nvnews.net/previews/geforce4_ti_4200/images/jk2_screenshot_1s.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<!--quoteo(post=1672464:date=Mar 7 2008, 12:23 PM:name=Domining)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Domining @ Mar 7 2008, 12:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1672464"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Problems with 1st person view:
- Optimized for ranged combat on a melee class
- Gives the impression of unpolished design to anyone who's used a 3rdperson camera for any time at all
- Occludes senses that you would have otherwise, that would make the game more dynamic
- Offers far less precision in advanced levels of play, whereas a 3rdpersoncam grants better overall action to the play experience<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is no good way to simulate the air wiffs and spatial senses that you get in a close combat situation that allow you to react (beyond seeing), but a thirdperson camera comes close.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=103522&hl=" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...=103522&hl=</a>
and plz stop it
we should make a poll about that
WHY THE FRUCK is the view point situated in side the body past the shoulders, for christ sackes 30% of the skulks hit box sticks out before the view point can see around courners, that means that your trying to bite a up right rectangular hit box thats trying to knife horozontal rectangular hit box, now look at it, tall vertical box looks down on low horozontal box, who has the hight advantage, whos knife has free range over a entire hit box area not to mention 30% of its body before its view point / attack point.
its a kin to killing a snake with a shovel,
leap isnt as effective as it could be esp on a skulk, one which ever direction you look in the marines knows were you leaping, and to make leap effective to dodge all the fires coming at you, you need to force the marine to have to track a rapidly moving object over a large area forceing a marine to turn on the spot and always staying out of his view point is ideal, yet you cant achive this cos he can see were your about to leap to, and while your looking to leap to a new area your cross hairs not on the marine to land the bite, this has two effects, if the marine who doesnt need to be meleeing you sees were your going can do the counter manouver to keep you at distance, he doesnt need his cross hair on you at this time, but it would be nice, once hes done said action he now has the ranged and hight advantage again, and we all know how far leaping at the center of a marines screen will get a skulk, esp if that marine has a shot gun.
Its flawed, it always has been, it would be nice to see it fixed
third person wouldnt do it, but haveing a view point and attack point further out of the skulks body would make ambushing a lot more efficent and effective, cos wow i can pop out around courners and duck back without being pistal whiped by some leet rine with a script.
the differance being, without motion and scent, that marines can hear me aprotching the courner, stand back at range and wait, me as a skulk cant hear the marines unless hes jumping around like a tard, yet i am hindered and cant look around the courner to get a visual on him with out 30% of my hit box sticking out.
<a href="http://fc05.deviantart.com/fs19/f/2007/278/f/8/notright_by_NEX17.jpg" target="_blank">http://fc05.deviantart.com/fs19/f/2007/278...ht_by_NEX17.jpg</a>
right now the red line is were the current skulk view point and attack point is
it really needs to be were the blue line is, the diffrance this change would make would be phenominal, the diffrance being takeing 1 or two pistal bullets from stickign a tiny bit of your nose out getting a visual, till haveing a marine wait till you get all your nose out you dont get a visual, and emptying a pistal clip in you as you try to pull back.
dead skulk with no visual of enemy
armor less skulk who knows were the enemy is
If you used a crosshair to lightsaber duel you'd lose 9.9/10 fights. It's all about hitting with sweetspots and abusing camera angles to make your weapon hit (as the weapon moves around when you move the camera/mouse). The only thing you would need a crosshair for is for deflecting projectiles back at the shooter, which I can't see Kharaa lifeforms doing.
And for the record, I'll say it again: <b>NS uses straight-forward attacks.</b> There is no variation, so 3rd person Isn't needed. If they were to put variated attacks in NS2 (I don't see how this would be beneficial and/or work anyways) it would do nothing but make the game more complicated and hard to play because melee attacks don't have a visual range of effect. You just hit whats in front of your face.
Oh, and using 3rd person would make any type of high-speed orientated lifeform - which happens to be the main attribute of the Kharaa offensive units - useless due to the fact that you would never be able to get a hit off unless you were moving at walk speed.
naggy have you read my post? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
Anyway, skulk bite animations are only annoying when your reactions are slow and you can't track marines.
Yeah but NS2 won't likely have <b>near</b> the subtlety of melee that JK2 had, so the crosshair would probably work fine - especially considering there won't (likely) be blocking or parrying, or states of readiness.
<!--quoteo(post=1672664:date=Mar 9 2008, 01:03 AM:name=naggy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(naggy @ Mar 9 2008, 01:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1672664"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh, and using 3rd person would make any type of high-speed orientated lifeform - which happens to be the main attribute of the Kharaa offensive units - useless due to the fact that you would never be able to get a hit off unless you were moving at walk speed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What is anyone basing this on? You blink and aim just like always.
chase_active 1
Blink around a bit on ns_tanith and try not to hit walls.
nice one domining
1person view ftw!
WHY THE FRUCK is the view point situated in side the body past the shoulders, for christ sackes 30% of the skulks hit box sticks out before the view point can see around courners, that means that your trying to bite a up right rectangular hit box thats trying to knife horozontal rectangular hit box, now look at it, tall vertical box looks down on low horozontal box, who has the hight advantage, whos knife has free range over a entire hit box area not to mention 30% of its body before its view point / attack point.
its a kin to killing a snake with a shovel,
leap isnt as effective as it could be esp on a skulk, one which ever direction you look in the marines knows were you leaping, and to make leap effective to dodge all the fires coming at you, you need to force the marine to have to track a rapidly moving object over a large area forceing a marine to turn on the spot and always staying out of his view point is ideal, yet you cant achive this cos he can see were your about to leap to, and while your looking to leap to a new area your cross hairs not on the marine to land the bite, this has two effects, if the marine who doesnt need to be meleeing you sees were your going can do the counter manouver to keep you at distance, he doesnt need his cross hair on you at this time, but it would be nice, once hes done said action he now has the ranged and hight advantage again, and we all know how far leaping at the center of a marines screen will get a skulk, esp if that marine has a shot gun.
Its flawed, it always has been, it would be nice to see it fixed
third person wouldnt do it, but haveing a view point and attack point further out of the skulks body would make ambushing a lot more efficent and effective, cos wow i can pop out around courners and duck back without being pistal whiped by some leet rine with a script.
the differance being, without motion and scent, that marines can hear me aprotching the courner, stand back at range and wait, me as a skulk cant hear the marines unless hes jumping around like a tard, yet i am hindered and cant look around the courner to get a visual on him with out 30% of my hit box sticking out.
<a href="http://fc05.deviantart.com/fs19/f/2007/278/f/8/notright_by_NEX17.jpg" target="_blank">http://fc05.deviantart.com/fs19/f/2007/278...ht_by_NEX17.jpg</a>
right now the red line is were the current skulk view point and attack point is
it really needs to be were the blue line is, the diffrance this change would make would be phenominal, the diffrance being takeing 1 or two pistal bullets from stickign a tiny bit of your nose out getting a visual, till haveing a marine wait till you get all your nose out you dont get a visual, and emptying a pistal clip in you as you try to pull back.
dead skulk with no visual of enemy
armor less skulk who knows were the enemy is<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
WHY THE FRUCK
I want this. Yet.. I don't think anyone's going to attempt it any time soon. I want more periphery of vision.