<!--quoteo(post=1665015:date=Dec 23 2007, 06:22 PM:name=Misere)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Misere @ Dec 23 2007, 06:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665015"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Agreed but certain players never play the bait only the trap. Thats my point!, not that baiting is a bad idea or strat!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yea so?
K Monosyllabic mode: If the right to buy weapons is based solely or predominately on kills and not general team play (kills included along with building and welding fellow players) the players who never act as the "bait" or build coz they are kill ######s will get all the guns and upgrades, thus encouraging anti-team behavour which is not the idea for NS. Players who want that should go place counter strike. NS can't work if everyone on your side adoptes this personal strat.
At the extreme I ave personally seen players not fire on a fade, hiding behind their team mate (some of which got killed) and not reloading but waiting until the fade was wounded and retreating so they could be the one who popped it. Others refusing to phase until the other side was cleared by other team mates. ETC.
The meassage I'm trying to get across is this: reward team players.
<!--quoteo(post=1664980:date=Dec 23 2007, 11:48 AM:name=Domining)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Domining @ Dec 23 2007, 11:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1664980"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Smart marines will assess situations and never walk into ambushes, they'll make the ambushers come to them. OR they'll make someone else trigger that ambush just so they can advance ahead and move closer to spawn camping baddies.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ah, so the game your playing is not Aliens VS Marines. It's Aliens VS Marines VS Marines VS Marines VS Marines.... Right?
<!--quoteo(post=1665050:date=Dec 24 2007, 01:00 AM:name=Misere)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Misere @ Dec 24 2007, 01:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665050"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS can't work if everyone on your side adoptes this personal strat.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Only the elite few my friend.
Does NS work now? The NS system encourages getting kills quite well already, you can't push people to kill more when your gameplay already revolves around killing.
<!--quoteo(post=1665052:date=Dec 24 2007, 02:19 AM:name=corpsman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(corpsman @ Dec 24 2007, 02:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665052"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ah, so the game your playing is not Aliens VS Marines. It's Aliens VS Marines VS Marines VS Marines VS Marines.... Right?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Its actually more like ME VS ALIEN TEAM 90% of the time. I look at most pubbers purely as hitpoints since they can't aim. If someone can aim, they suddenly become an equal and I don't have to bait them anymore.
i like the idea of a Merits system, instead of say, money or Credits (which are 'spent' - currency, while Merits are 'achieved' - medals) you'd gain Merits (which probably don't expire) by making kills, doing damage and fulfilling commander's objectives (especially - there'd be a greater multiplier) etc. - you're rewarded mostly for your effort, and some for your skill. As usual, guns would cost the team res. (they don't -have- to, but i think they should, the next six or seven lines are based on the assumption that it consumes res) +If the commander needs to save res, he can lock some of the (more expensive) options. +OR for resources you could have the team-pool split into a player-pool (which alternatively could be split in the way the alien resource model was split in NS1) and commander-pool, now either -A) res both go up independently, commander can't influence the player-pool and vice-versa, or -B) commander can 'lock' or 'cap' the player-pool when he needs to save res towards something, and/or can transfer res between each pool as required, but probably by default, you'd have each going up half/half ~B)(alternatively, player-pool is an adjustable portion of the entire team-pool, the excess of which is in the sole spending power of the commander) +One drawback I could see with the player pool system is that it's pretty much first-come first-serve :/ but i think it's important to keep the "res" system significant since it -is- a team game. One or two guns should be "free", IE. you'd get to choose from two different guns with different playstyles without requiring Merits. - Perhaps research could lower the individual cost of guns (conversely, increase res output) Weapons should -still- be able to be dropped by the commander at his discretion. Bigger/more-expensive guns/equipment eg. heavy armour, should be at the -sole- discretion of the commander. Now, so long as the commander isn't an ######, (boot him, boot him) it should work pretty well... theoretically.
I think you should also be able to recycle dropped/unused weapons/ammo for res :/ (only the ones that actually cost anything in the first place though)
I also like the other ideas like the commander can put a certain amount in stock, and marines pull them out as required, sounds good. But maybe limitations on specific weapons could be placed through the Merits/External-Rank system.
<!--quoteo(post=1665121:date=Dec 24 2007, 11:25 PM:name=Domining)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Domining @ Dec 24 2007, 11:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665121"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Only the elite few my friend.
Does NS work now? The NS system encourages getting kills quite well already, you can't push people to kill more when your gameplay already revolves around killing. Its actually more like ME VS ALIEN TEAM 90% of the time. I look at most pubbers purely as hit points since they can't aim. If someone can aim, they suddenly become an equal and I don't have to bait them anymore.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
AHHHHHHHHH! I suggest that you actually <u>read </u>the previous posts rather than continue on the same tune! BUT I now under stand why you have the stance you do! Your one of those players I'm actually talking about. Your team mates are not expendable items. You protect each other. They are not extra hit points.
Senorio: A fade turns up mid game, blinking back to a gorge well out of range for regular healing. A1, SG and WLD all round, marine squad of 3-4
Here is my style: When a fade zooms in and hits the guy in front removing his armor thats your cue to get in front of him while he gets welded at the back. COM drops meds, marine group pushes forward.
Your style: You hang back and let him your team mate die in the vain hope that you can kill the fade on the next pass, he blinks back and gets healed (again) and your now a man down. The fade picks everyone off one by one.
Now if you only reward players with guns for kills everyone will adopt your strat which is not a ESS! If you reward the guy welding, the other squad members for dealing damage etc you get better team play. So lets assume your right and half the players can't shoot straight would it not be good for you the lean mean killing machine to get a weld or are you so good you never take damage?
*shrug* to address some of the newbies that don't know which gun they should use, just add a description, rate of fire, caliber+muzzle velocity (or just damage), etc. and add a 'best used in close quarters' or 'best used in open areas' etc. plus some backstory behind the weapon, just for fun (weapon variety, even if only through the visual appearance (different colour schemes, accessories) is a definite must. and this was in another topic, but - left-handed weapon models) i definitely have to say, you give players a 'first choice' for the first weapon (they'll always spawn with this gun/set of equipment), one that emphasises skill (lmg with less spread(more accuracy)), another that's basically a newbie weapon (lmg(smg?) with greater spread (less accuracy), greater ammo, less damage?) and/or a shotgun (which there could be a variety for - newbie version as a first weapon choice, better version to be unlocked by comm) need at least two, though, imo. so lmg and smg, or lmg and weak shotgun
i also agree that we DEFINITELY do NOT use 'money' or $, or any form of currency - well, credits doesn't sound so bad - but this is an active effort by the TSA - the military - to eliminate the kharaa threat, they wouldn't leave the purchase of weapons to grunts. as someone said, they're not mercs. but things like prestige, merit, achievement, influence or recquisition (like in w40k dawn of war) (some sound spendable like recquisition, most others sound like a separate 'score') but i still don't favour adding a second resource - even if you say the commander shouldn't have to worry about res management, well, that's pretty much his job :\ res is an integral part of NS, and should also be an integral part of NS2, take that part away and... pretty much screw ns classic, it's combat with buildings. (personally i don't have a problem with combat, it's enjoyable, so long as you keep it as a separate game-mode, diversify.)
for late-joiners, in either the money or 'score' systems (not ingame score, which is influenced mostly by kills - so there'd be more emphasis on working for the team, welding, following orders and such), maybe you could just give them an equal score to the lowest/poorest player on the team (of course if there's a player that remains poor/low-score from the start of the game, this becomes a problem - so an alternative could be a mean or median, then if necessary adjusted 'down' to give the new player a bit less than the 'average' player on the team)
i like afratnikov's ideas of, specific weapon discounts for the 'money' system [at the cost of other guns? important - no guns should be free apart from the first-weapon-choice] (to 'lure' a marine into buying a certain gun or equipment), and encouragement for weapon diversity
CanadianWolverine> "To add to the "request" formula, I would like that to extend to making templates, starting at a personal level, then going up to squad level, where so many numbers of templates make up a squad. The idea being here that a template is a Commander's request to the marines to follow certain guidelines, I am certain this would help the new players with choosing equipment as well. The squad level informs the marine choosing from the templates that the Commander requests a certain make up of the team going into the field, so that combined arms is observed and the team not totally weak in a particular area, like close combat or DI removal." I like this idea. Whether it'll work, who knows? I think you could combine this with afratnikov's ideas. You'd have a template that tells you what you should get, and the prices of the guns would influence you to -get- that equipment, it gives you incentive, more than just because it's best for the team (and gamers are pretty selfish people).
the comm-request idea sounds good. and there'd be an icon in the corner that'd flash (kinda like a "peon idle" alert) that you click/press a button and it'd bring up the list of active requests to which it's a simple yes/no (or postpone your decision) it should be cheaper res-wise to let marines take guns from the armoury, and cost more to do a conscious drop of a gun to a place without marine buildings nearby - and even greater to a place with DI?
but the thing is, do flayra and max want a cs-like system more to a) take responsibility away from the commander, or b) give the marines greater freedom and independence from the commander? i'm not asking what it'll achieve - it'll achieve varying degrees of both - i'm asking what the -intention- is, because some of the suggestions are more a than b, others more b than a a is essentially reducing the commander's micro-management (less grief for the commander), b is giving the individual players more control over their equipment (less grief for the marines) [which is best achieved through a 'money' system - which i don't particularly favour] which i think doesn't make much sense in the NS universe (for reasons already discussed)
a lot of the ideas/suggestions expressed here, is -generally- on the assumption that the commander knows what he's doing. so, gotta adjust for bad commanders.
I'll use ns_tanith as an example. Right outside of cargo. <!--quoteo(post=1665210:date=Dec 25 2007, 05:43 PM:name=Misere)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Misere @ Dec 25 2007, 05:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665210"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->AHHHHHHHHH! I suggest that you actually <u>read </u>the previous posts rather than continue on the same tune! BUT I now under stand why you have the stance you do! Your one of those players I'm actually talking about. Your team mates are not expendable items. You protect each other. They are not extra hit points.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Its weird because it goes both ways. I don't mind walking forward unless I know there is a ridiculous amount of skulks ahead and nowhere to dodge them. (I'd run inside of cargo and tripple jump off the boxes and hope the baddies behind me can shoot skulks)
The average player on a pub is just about worthless. A lot of the pubbers go like 1:4kd in a game.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Senorio: A fade turns up mid game, blinking back to a gorge well out of range for regular healing. A1, SG and WLD all round, marine squad of 3-4
Here is my style: When a fade zooms in and hits the guy in front removing his armor thats your cue to get in front of him while he gets welded at the back. COM drops meds, marine group pushes forward.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> And then you slowly crawl into cargo, doing absolutely nothing to the fade and losing a marine or two in the process because its a smart fade and takes risks accordingly. When inside cargo, you instantly get gas'd, skulk'd and faded and every marine on G4B2S dies because phantom/dante/enigma dominate you. (actually its more like the BADCLAN server)
That sounds more realistic. The game plays out for the next 40 minutes while phanton/dante/enigma rack up 200 fade kills and it ends as a miserable loss for marines.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Your style: You hang back and let him your team mate die in the vain hope that you can kill the fade on the next pass, he blinks back and gets healed (again) and your now a man down. The fade picks everyone off one by one.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually I was talking about early game, what I'd actually do in that case:
Alternatively: I solo through chem trans with a shotgun blowing away thousands upon thousands of walker skulks while said marines are getting dominated on their way to cargo. Take my time, kill a RT or two. Fade gets told that I'm in acidic. Fade gets solo'd. Successful push, gg.
I was actually referring to the early game, before fades. Always bait your teammates when you know someone will have to die. You don't want to die, now do you? I mean, you can put your skill to better use in a little bit because you're better than your bait right?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Now if you only reward players with guns for kills everyone will adopt your strat which is not a ESS! If you reward the guy welding, the other squad members for dealing damage etc you get better team play. So lets assume your right and half the players can't shoot straight would it not be good for you the lean mean killing machine to get a weld or are you so good you never take damage?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Because the only teamwork exhibited in a game is obviously welding/humping your teammates?
<!--quoteo(post=1665269:date=Dec 26 2007, 08:57 AM:name=Domining)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Domining @ Dec 26 2007, 08:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665269"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Alternatively: I solo through chem trans with a shotgun blowing away thousands upon thousands of walker skulks while said marines are getting dominated on their way to cargo. Take my time, kill a RT or two. Fade gets told that I'm in acidic. Fade gets solo'd. Successful push, gg.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well you seem very certain of yourself, sounds like your a one man killing machine!
<!--quoteo(post=1665269:date=Dec 26 2007, 08:57 AM:name=Domining)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Domining @ Dec 26 2007, 08:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665269"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Because the only teamwork exhibited in a game is obviously welding/humping your teammates?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You obviously have not been listening, Here is what I think you should get rewarded for (in no order of importance) when it comes to both yours score <u>AND </u> earning points for guns under the new system:
Killing aliens Killing structures Dealing damage Building structures Welding structures Welding vents shut Moving you COMs waypoints/objectives
You seem to only focus on the first one and that does not make you a good player to have on your NS side, just someone who is great to have on your CO side.
<!--quoteo(post=1665292:date=Dec 26 2007, 05:33 PM:name=Misere)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Misere @ Dec 26 2007, 05:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665292"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well you seem very certain of yourself, sounds like your a one man killing machine! You obviously have not been listening, Here is what I think you should get rewarded for (in no order of importance) when it comes to both yours score <u>AND </u> earning points for guns under the new system:
Killing aliens Killing structures Dealing damage Building structures Welding structures Welding vents shut Moving you COMs waypoints/objectives You seem to only focus on the first one and that does not make you a good player to have on your NS side, just someone who is great to have on your CO side.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Perhaps there should be a squad member radius? If you do any of those actions within a certain radius of another squad member or more, you get double points for that action?
It's at least 1 step ahead to enforcing teamwork.
"Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy other targets to shoot at."
<!--quoteo(post=1665292:date=Dec 26 2007, 05:33 PM:name=Misere)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Misere @ Dec 26 2007, 05:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665292"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well you seem very certain of yourself, sounds like your a one man killing machine!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Why thank you, would you like some frag videos?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You obviously have not been listening, Here is what I think you should get rewarded for (in no order of importance) when it comes to both yours score <u>AND </u> earning points for guns under the new system:
Killing aliens Killing structures Dealing damage Building structures Welding structures Welding vents shut Moving you COMs waypoints/objectives<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sounds fair, as long as it doesn't include what the man below suggested.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You seem to only focus on the first one and that does not make you a good player to have on your NS side, just someone who is great to have on your CO side.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> On the contrary, killing aliens is the most important part of ns, it accounts for 90% of winning. The other 10% being not having a dumb commander/bad teammates.
<!--quoteo(post=1665298:date=Dec 26 2007, 07:19 PM:name=Heskey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Heskey @ Dec 26 2007, 07:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665298"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Perhaps there should be a squad member radius? If you do any of those actions within a certain radius of another squad member or more, you get double points for that action?
It's at least 1 step ahead to enforcing teamwork.
"Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy other targets to shoot at."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Of course teamwork means humping your teammates. Right?
By no means, every member of your team has to gather up in a 2x2m box and travel like that throughout the map going about whatever it is that Heskey does in game. Ultimate teamwork strategerie yo!
I'd like to see that implemented just to piss people like Domining off. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
but seriously, 90% of winning is from killing aliens? :/ poor joke.
<!--quoteo(post=1665391:date=Dec 27 2007, 07:45 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Harimau @ Dec 27 2007, 07:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665391"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd like to see that implemented just to piss people like Domining off. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Luckily, you aren't important enough for the devs to care about.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->but seriously, 90% of winning is from killing aliens? :/ poor joke.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Please, share with me. How can you win this game if your team isn't killing any aliens? Better yet, how can you win this game if the aliens are getting more kills than the marines?
<!--quoteo(post=1665399:date=Dec 27 2007, 10:14 PM:name=Domining)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Domining @ Dec 27 2007, 10:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665399"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Luckily, you aren't important enough for the devs to care about. Please, share with me. How can you win this game if your team isn't killing any aliens? Better yet, <b>how can you win this game if the aliens are getting more kills than the marines?</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Condescending and self congratulatory attitude aside, I will address your question:
Kill the hive.
It is possible for a Kharaa team to be laying waste to marines and suddenly lose the match when their second or on rare occasions first hive to bite the dust.
This is one of those rare games where your Kill to Death ratio does not count for everything.
I am sure we are all impressed with those players who can put bullets into the target, but honestly, with fast moving and ambushing Kharaa, more marines putting ammo down range counts for far more. Marines who can form a firing line, covering each other as they reload and weld each other, count for far more to a match then a nigh aim bot rambo.
What exactly does this have to do with NS2 Marine Weapon system? Merit, points, score, etc equaling a players contribution to the team. Rambos contribute less to their comrades, even if they have higher kill scores. Its a team's total objectives accomplished that count far more than kills.
Killing hives wins games, killing Kharaa is only note worthy if is a part of achieving the win game objective.
So, if you reward a player's merit with equipment, it better reflect the goals of a teamwork game, not the death match monstrosity that Domining and other "leet" gamers seem to be playing, irregardless of team objectives. Why does that sound like CS: Death Match disguised as a Team game? Oh right, that's called Team Death Match <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> Pah, NS2 can be better than that, and so can its weapon buy system.
i agree with the wolverine the k:D ratio often but not always reflects who wins. often on pubs aliens may win the game and have alower number of kills than the rines say rines 220kills to alien 200 kills.
if u spectate on a bot sever full of noobs long enuth you may see the noobs loose to the bots dispite geting 2-3times more kills than the bots.
why does this happen, because there are factors other than killing effiecney that can effect the game, mostly strategy and team cohesiveness
No matter how good your strategy is, you can't win this game if your marines are dying. Killing hives is out of the question if there are no marines alive on the field to do it. While walking to the hive, aliens have 2-3 chances to stop them before they go in. And then they can fight inside of the hive with hive regen and chambers on their side.
Killing a hive is a primary objective, its true. But its not the least common denominator. How can you kill a hive without killing aliens? It is true that a marine without any kills can still win a game because his teammates are mopping the floors with aliens, and I'm assuming that you are that marine if you don't agree that killing aliens is important. Nothing marines can do, can they do by being pacifists. Its simple, if you don't kill aliens, aliens will kill you.
We aren't going off topic, we are discussing just how important getting kills is in NS and how much it should account for.
<!--quoteo(post=1665450:date=Dec 28 2007, 10:32 AM:name=invader Zim)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(invader Zim @ Dec 28 2007, 10:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665450"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i agree with the wolverine the k:D ratio often but not always reflects who wins. often on pubs aliens may win the game and have alower number of kills than the rines say rines 220kills to alien 200 kills.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It doesn't work the same way for aliens as it does for marines. Aliens only have to come close to the same amount of kills as marines because losing a skulk is never as bad as losing a marine.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->if u spectate on a bot sever full of noobs long enuth you may see the noobs loose to the bots dispite geting 2-3times more kills than the bots.
why does this happen, because there are factors other than killing effiecney that can effect the game, mostly strategy and team cohesiveness<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Of course bots have better team strategy, am i rite?
<!--quoteo(post=1665463:date=Dec 28 2007, 11:25 AM:name=Domining)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Domining @ Dec 28 2007, 11:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665463"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No matter how good your strategy is, you can't win this game if your marines are dying. Killing hives is out of the question if there are no marines alive on the field to do it. While walking to the hive, aliens have 2-3 chances to stop them before they go in. And then they can fight inside of the hive with hive regen and chambers on their side.
Killing a hive is a primary objective, its true. But its not the least common denominator. <b>How can you kill a hive without killing aliens?</b> It is true that a marine without any kills can still win a game because his teammates are mopping the floors with aliens, and <i>I'm assuming that you are that marine if you don't agree that killing aliens is important.</i> Nothing marines can do, can they do by being pacifists. Its simple, if you don't kill aliens, aliens will kill you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To answer the bold: Ninja the hive. I am assuming experienced players know what I mean by this.
To answer the italic: You assume. You know what happens when you assume? I already wrote that in my own experience, Marines do more damage to the Kharaa when they form a firing line, covering each as they reload and watching each other's flanks and sixes (backs). More ammunition down range, especially with cones of fire, count for far more than being an uber rambo.
Teamwork <i>greater than</i> Deathmatch.
What I seem to see you describing as the evidence for your thesis is the end game for marine, when they are trapped in the marine start with no way out, where ninja'ing a hive is no longer even an option. Unless the Marine's main base is locked down by the Kharaa, there is always a chance the Marines can flank the Kharaa and insert troops past the main line into a Hive, with setting up a forward seige, phase gate rushes, and shot gun rushes. The whole premise of the "bait" style of play is anti-teamwork play at its worst, and goes against a lot of what is possible for Marine teams that don't give up and die hard.
<b>Any merit system for the weapon buy system of a Marine needs to take into account Teamwork far more than Deathmatch scores, or NS2 is going to fail in teamwork just like CS.</b>
<!--quoteo(post=1665467:date=Dec 28 2007, 11:43 AM:name=CanadianWolverine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CanadianWolverine @ Dec 28 2007, 11:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665467"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To answer the bold: Ninja the hive. I am assuming experienced players know what I mean by this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Only possible against bots/people as dumb as bots. I have no clue how you can miss something as big as a marine building a phase gate outside of your hive, aliens must be helens. I don't recall being ninja'd ever in the last 2 years be it a pub or a scrim or a match.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To answer the italic: You assume. You know what happens when you assume? I already wrote that in my own experience, Marines do more damage to the Kharaa when they form a firing line, covering each as they reload and watching each other's flanks and sixes (backs). More ammunition down range, especially with cones of fire, count for far more than being an uber rambo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You should totally write a NS_LEARN article.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Teamwork <i>greater than</i> Deathmatch.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> What deathmatch are you talking about?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What I seem to see you describing as the evidence for your thesis is the end game for marine, when they are trapped in the marine start with no way out, where ninja'ing a hive is no longer even an option. Unless the Marine's main base is locked down by the Kharaa, there is always a chance the Marines can flank the Kharaa and insert troops past the main line into a Hive, with setting up a forward seige, phase gate rushes, and shot gun rushes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> What I'm describing is early game to mid game when marines die without being able to cap more than 2/3 nodes and failing to push anywhere because their mean k:d is ~1:1.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The whole premise of the "bait" style of play is anti-teamwork play at its worst, and goes against a lot of what is possible for Marine teams that don't give up and die hard.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> What is possible in NS and how would you organize it? How do you propose moving past alien ambushes? Why is baiting not a team oriented strategy?
Even at the highest denomination of play, there always is a bait who has to walk forward to the end of the corner and immediately double jump backwards. He has rely on his teammates to kill the 2 skulks bunnyhopping at him from around the corner. That's evidence of teamwork in baiting.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>Any merit system for the weapon buy system of a Marine needs to take into account Teamwork far more than Deathmatch scores, or NS2 is going to fail in teamwork just like CS.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Deathmatch scores? Deathmatch is impossible when so many strategies exist. Since marines have to kill aliens and have to do it extremely well, and have to kill aliens no matter what strategy they are aiming for, its only fair to reward it the most.
<!--quoteo(post=1665473:date=Dec 28 2007, 12:56 PM:name=Domining)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Domining @ Dec 28 2007, 12:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665473"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Only possible against bots/people as dumb as bots. I have no clue how you can miss something as big as a marine building a phase gate outside of your hive, aliens must be helens. I don't recall being ninja'd ever in the last 2 years be it a pub or a scrim or a match.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Just because it doesn't seem to happen to you doesn't mean it doesn't happen. <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What deathmatch are you talking about? What I'm describing is early game to mid game when marines die without being able to cap more than 2/3 nodes and failing to push anywhere because their mean k:d is ~1:1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The same one you are. The winning goal a gamer aims for in deathmatch is to be the one with the most kills aka highest score. IMHO (<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deathmatch_%28gaming%29" target="_blank">And Others Gamers' Opinions</a>), if the main way gamers distinguish themselves with K : D ratios, that is deathmatch. <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What is possible in NS and how would you organize it?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That is clearly bait, as in flame, I am sure you understand just what playing Marine in NS1 entails. <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Even at the highest denomination of play, there always is a bait who has to walk forward to the end of the corner and immediately double jump backwards. He has rely on his teammates to kill the 2 skulks bunnyhopping at him from around the corner. That's evidence of teamwork in baiting. <b>How do you propose moving past alien ambushes? Why is baiting not a team oriented strategy?</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> b: Are you refering to moving past ambushes in the proposed gameplay of NS2 or moving past them in the current version of NS1? Sure, in the current version of NS1, baiting can be a viable team strategy if worked out with other willing participants, at the expense of a new player is not ideal though. Personally, I prefer the use of grenades to flush out ambushers from likely spots, such as evident choke points like doorways or hiding spots like vents and crates - then moving forward with a CQB entry tactics like cutting your piece of the pie and not stopping and blocking a team mate(s) in the choke point. Explosive entry is my preference over baiting any day. The reason why I consider baiting to be anti to team play is because it is at the expense of a team mate. It makes me think of a funny story that ends with "I don't have to be the fastest runner, I just have to run faster than the other guy." Ideal team play IMHO is with the consent of the other players, not at the expense of their fun. <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Deathmatch scores? Deathmatch is impossible when so many strategies exist. Since marines have to kill aliens and have to do it extremely well, and have to kill aliens no matter what strategy they are aiming for, its only fair to reward it the most.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Reward it the most as an individual or the most for the entire team? I disagree with rewarding an individual for it, I've seen where that leads in Counter Strike. And as you illustrate, if the entire team is doing more kills than the other team, then the are already being rewarded, with a win. To properly reward players so that they feel comfortable with any tactic or strategy, no one way should gain more than any other: if a gamer has fun playing NS2 as a bad ass welder - builder mofo, then why stop them from the same sense of reward as the bad ass shotgun blasting mofo? If one of those player's play styles (or any others) was discouraged from playing because they were rewarded less than others by the game's reward system, the team would be out that role. I wonder how far "leet" nigh aim bot killer players would get without the supporting team roles ... <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1665579:date=Dec 29 2007, 02:16 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Harimau @ Dec 29 2007, 02:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665579"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>Wait. </b>So what was this thread about again?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Weapon System by which Marine buy their own weapons. This discussion came about after comments from the Unknown Worlds - Natural Selection 2 Developers mentioned Marines buying their own weapons.
Currently, I favor the idea of two types of resources, personal and team, the use of a request system where team resources are involved, and the Commander having the ability to give resources to the team when they so desire.
With regards to the personal resources, how those resources are rewarded is what I am debating currently. IMHO, there has to be a better way(s) to reward a Marine with the resources needed to purchase equipment than exclusively or heavily weighted in favor of kills to deaths ratios. I have seen how that plays out in Counter Strike, and I don't find what can be only loosely called team game play to be at all enjoyable or even in the spirit of the kind of team game play Natural Selection 1 (Half Life 1 mod) dished out, which I throughly enjoyed despite its short comings.
<!--quoteo(post=1665562:date=Dec 28 2007, 11:51 PM:name=CanadianWolverine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CanadianWolverine @ Dec 28 2007, 11:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665562"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just because it doesn't seem to happen to you doesn't mean it doesn't happen.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It isn't a viable tactic against non-helens.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The same one you are. The winning goal a gamer aims for in deathmatch is to be the one with the most kills aka highest score. IMHO (<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deathmatch_%28gaming%29" target="_blank">And Others Gamers' Opinions</a>), if the main way gamers distinguish themselves with K : D ratios, that is deathmatch.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Most death match modes of play pit every player against every other player. This is more like TDM, although not quite. I don't shoot aliens because I want points, I shoot aliens because I want to shoot aliens. Shooting aliens is the only fun part of NS. I don't consider building rts as any sort of fun what so ever.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That is clearly bait, as in flame, I am sure you understand just what playing Marine in NS1 entails.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If you're referring to your second part of your above ^ sentence then yea, your second part of a sentence is a bait. My question was legitimate and you're dodging it by arguing ad hominem.
What I do and don't know aside, I'm curious what players who have never played a competitive game of NS consider tactics for moving past ambushes.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->b: Are you refering to moving past ambushes in the proposed gameplay of NS2 or moving past them in the current version of NS1? Sure, in the current version of NS1, baiting can be a viable team strategy if worked out with other willing participants, at the expense of a new player is not ideal though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Chances are, that's the best use you can put a "new" player to. Sacrifice him in the name of winning.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Personally, I prefer the use of grenades to flush out ambushers from likely spots, such as evident choke points like doorways or hiding spots like vents and crates<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The amount of times grenades counter ambushes is laughable in this game. You only get 2, can't cover every single camping spot with them and besides, I'd rather save them for when I'll have to grenade a lerk/fade on top of the hive.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- then moving forward with a CQB entry tactics like cutting your piece of the pie and not stopping and blocking a team mate(s) in the choke point.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No team, CPL or not, can communicate that well to adjust their view cones to cover every single angle. Besides, if you go all in at once, you'll have no choice but to block each other. There is very rarely enough space to dodge skulks properly/throw your hitbox out of your teammate's way so you both can shoot at the skulk.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The reason why I consider baiting to be anti to team play is because it is at the expense of a team mate. It makes me think of a funny story that ends with "I don't have to be the fastest runner, I just have to run faster than the other guy." Ideal team play IMHO is with the consent of the other players, not at the expense of their fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Someone has to go first, might as well pull straws. But thankfully, there are plenty of volunteers who don't know better. They'll learn at some point.
New players get dominated in all games, not just NS. Try starting playing CS, if you don't instantly get frustrated by being headshotted/awp'd by someone you didn't even see coming, let me know.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Reward it the most as an individual or the most for the entire team? I disagree with rewarding an individual for it, I've seen where that leads in Counter Strike. And as you illustrate, if the entire team is doing more kills than the other team, then the are already being rewarded, with a win. To properly reward players so that they feel comfortable with any tactic or strategy, no one way should gain more than any other: if a gamer has fun playing NS2 as a bad ass welder - builder mofo, then why stop them from the same sense of reward as the bad ass shotgun blasting mofo? If one of those player's play styles (or any others) was discouraged from playing because they were rewarded less than others by the game's reward system, the team would be out that role.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Simple, the bad shotgun blasting, fade slaying mofo most probably has been playing this game longer and is better. He should be rewarded more because he did the role he is doing better than anyone else on the team can. The chances are, if you can aim and move that good, you can probably build RTs and weld teammates as good as that guy too.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I wonder how far "leet" nigh aim bot killer players would get without the supporting team roles ... <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> And by supporting team roles you must mean internet friends. All you need is 2 good marines to commence the spawn camp. A round of GGs will be passed.
When I refer to "nades", to clarify, I include the grenade launcher in that.
I won't describe NS1 to you, we've both played it, as I clearly recognize from your many posts on the subject.
I find it interesting that bizarre that you have never enjoyed coordination in CQB on the same level as I have, where the angles are covered upon entry, over lapping fields of fire are used, and team mates don't block each other. And I am describing public play. I guess you haven't had the pleasure of playing with OldF before, those are a fun group of gamers. I play TF2 with them from time to time these days.
Finally, shot gun blaster and the guy behind him welding both contribute equally to the surviving and thriving of the team, IMHO. It seems we are just playing two different games. I rather enjoy the team dynamics I get in NS and loathe the situations you describe. You are free to keep your competitive play ... oh, by the way, how is that doing these days? Getting lots of new players from the pubs trying out for the leagues? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
Clearly, we disagree about what NS1 is about. Its almost like we have been playing two different games from what you are describing. When, IMHO, NS1 stoops to the spawn camping, noob sacrificing, kills to deaths ratio bragging game you describe, I get bored with NS1 and go play something else that does TDM better.
I want better than that for NS2, those things you describe in NS1 are stuff I see as needing fixing or out right removal from the game play. The farther NS2 moves from Counter Strike game experience, the more I will enjoy it.
<b>I do not enjoy the way players buy weapons in CS, I do not want to see that in NS2. Period.</b>
NS was something special a long, long time ago when I wasn't involved in any competitive leagues. But then after seeing what REAL teamwork is about, it got boring and all that was left was killing aliens in pubs.
<!--quoteo(post=1665665:date=Dec 29 2007, 05:59 PM:name=Domining)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Domining @ Dec 29 2007, 05:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665665"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS was something special a long, long time ago<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What about the NS2 Marine Weapon system could make it special again?
<!--quoteo(post=1665579:date=Dec 29 2007, 04:16 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Harimau @ Dec 29 2007, 04:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665579"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>Wait. </b>So what was this thread about again?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--quoteo(post=1665619:date=Dec 30 2007, 12:26 AM:name=CanadianWolverine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CanadianWolverine @ Dec 30 2007, 12:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665619"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Weapon System by which Marine buy their own weapons. This discussion came about after comments from the Unknown Worlds - Natural Selection 2 Developers mentioned Marines buying their own weapons.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> ...yea. i know. it was rhetorical and slightly sarcastic. rhetorical questions are those that don't need answers - but instead, they make you think. i just wanted to <b>remind</b> certain people what we were discussing here.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1665050:date=Dec 24 2007, 01:00 AM:name=Misere)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Misere @ Dec 24 2007, 01:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665050"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The message I'm trying to get across is this: reward team players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I see assists being a part of kills. Since baiting is so key to NS maybe it should have a special assist point in NS. <!--quoteo(post=1665292:date=Dec 26 2007, 05:33 PM:name=Misere)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Misere @ Dec 26 2007, 05:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665292"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well you seem very certain of yourself, sounds like your a one man killing machine! Here is what I think you should get rewarded for (in no order of importance) when it comes to both yours score <u>AND </u> earning points for guns under the new system:
Killing aliens Killing structures Dealing damage Building structures Welding structures Welding vents shut Moving you COMs waypoints/objectives You seem to only focus on the first one and that does not make you a good player to have on your NS side, just someone who is great to have on your CO side.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Agreed. <!--quoteo(post=1665407:date=Dec 28 2007, 01:17 AM:name=CanadianWolverine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CanadianWolverine @ Dec 28 2007, 01:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665407"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Kill the hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--quoteo(post=1665463:date=Dec 28 2007, 11:25 AM:name=Domining)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Domining @ Dec 28 2007, 11:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665463"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No matter how good your strategy is, you can't win this game if your marines are dying.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> See above. It's not that uncommon. Especially since alien kill count jumps when a fade shows up. <!--quoteo(post=1665665:date=Dec 29 2007, 05:59 PM:name=Domining)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Domining @ Dec 29 2007, 05:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665665"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS was something special a long, long time ago when I wasn't involved in any competitive leagues. But then after seeing what REAL teamwork is about, it got boring and all that was left was killing aliens in pubs.
BTW I don't play NS anymore. Its TF2 now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If you don't like real teamwork, why did you like competitive NS? I'm really curious since you often make posts to the tune of CAL being the be all end all of NS, but why would you want NS2 to be like that if you don't even like it?
I'm not sure if it's been mentioned yet, but what about the armory automatically generating weapons over time? Once you unlock a weapon type, it slowly generates in the armory, and once it's been "built" by the armory, a player can pick it up. (i.e. "uses" armory, and selects the weapon from a list) Different types of weapons generate more slowly than others. (GL won't generate as fast as a shotgun) There can be a limit to how many types of weapons an armory can hold. So that there's not 12 grenade launchers in it over time, preventing cheese strategies that are very unlikely to happen in real games.
Further, commanders could be given the ability to "focus" the armory, allowing only one type of weapon to be generated, but generating at a faster rate. So preparing for a shotgun rush or other strategy to be viable, and in control of the commander, while allowing players to generally select their own weapon under other circumstances. This way both commander and marine have both freedom and choice that could mesh well.
More dynamics to such a concept: Armories would be more strategic targets for the Kharaa. In addition, multiple armories could be built to ensure that weapons are being created at a faster rate, or focusing multiple weapon types. (Shotgun/HMG) (It would likely be wise to set a limit to how many armories could be in play, for example, 2 or 3, set as a server variable for larger servers, or competitive play, but we'll say default is 2.) OR second, third armories could have higher costs, scaling as more armories are in play.
In reference to other suggestions, I think having a personal currency is dangerous. It rewards certain roles, but not others. A good K/D ratio doesn't mean you're playing a winning game. Players competing over finishing the build of a structure to get points, or complaints of stealing kills, killing blows, certain commanded roles etc. are real possibilities.
Addendum: The commander should still have the ability to "buyout" a weapon immediately for a certain costs, similar to how it exists now (although perhaps at a higher relative cost as the economy of NS2 is still in question.) That way, if there's a prime player that the commander wants to gear out, he can do so if the weapon has already been taken, or hasn't been created yet.
<!--quoteo(post=1666001:date=Jan 2 2008, 10:25 AM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Jan 2 2008, 10:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1666001"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you don't like real teamwork,<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Reading comprehension.
I <u>ONLY</u> like real teamwork, the teamwork exhibited on public servers is and always will be laughable no matter how hard you try. Many games have tried and tried to enforce teamwork but the best that came out is "everyone rush a, I SAID EVERYONE" And then everyone rushes A with medics healing and stuff. That's the end of that teamwork.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm really curious since you often make posts to the tune of CAL being the be all end all of NS<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Competitive leagues are the be end of all games because they provide competent players you can choose to play with, some even without repulsive personality disorders.
Comments
Yea so?
K Monosyllabic mode: If the right to buy weapons is based solely or predominately on kills and not general team play (kills included along with building and welding fellow players) the players who never act as the "bait" or build coz they are kill ######s will get all the guns and upgrades, thus encouraging anti-team behavour which is not the idea for NS. Players who want that should go place counter strike. NS can't work if everyone on your side adoptes this personal strat.
At the extreme I ave personally seen players not fire on a fade, hiding behind their team mate (some of which got killed) and not reloading but waiting until the fade was wounded and retreating so they could be the one who popped it. Others refusing to phase until the other side was cleared by other team mates. ETC.
The meassage I'm trying to get across is this: reward team players.
Ah, so the game your playing is not Aliens VS Marines. It's Aliens VS Marines VS Marines VS Marines VS Marines.... Right?
Only the elite few my friend.
Does NS work now? The NS system encourages getting kills quite well already, you can't push people to kill more when your gameplay already revolves around killing.
<!--quoteo(post=1665052:date=Dec 24 2007, 02:19 AM:name=corpsman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(corpsman @ Dec 24 2007, 02:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665052"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ah, so the game your playing is not Aliens VS Marines. It's Aliens VS Marines VS Marines VS Marines VS Marines.... Right?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its actually more like ME VS ALIEN TEAM 90% of the time. I look at most pubbers purely as hitpoints since they can't aim. If someone can aim, they suddenly become an equal and I don't have to bait them anymore.
you'd gain Merits (which probably don't expire) by making kills, doing damage and fulfilling commander's objectives (especially - there'd be a greater multiplier) etc. - you're rewarded mostly for your effort, and some for your skill.
As usual, guns would cost the team res. (they don't -have- to, but i think they should, the next six or seven lines are based on the assumption that it consumes res)
+If the commander needs to save res, he can lock some of the (more expensive) options.
+OR for resources you could have the team-pool split into a player-pool (which alternatively could be split in the way the alien resource model was split in NS1) and commander-pool, now either
-A) res both go up independently, commander can't influence the player-pool and vice-versa, or
-B) commander can 'lock' or 'cap' the player-pool when he needs to save res towards something, and/or can transfer res between each pool as required, but probably by default, you'd have each going up half/half
~B)(alternatively, player-pool is an adjustable portion of the entire team-pool, the excess of which is in the sole spending power of the commander)
+One drawback I could see with the player pool system is that it's pretty much first-come first-serve :/ but i think it's important to keep the "res" system significant since it -is- a team game.
One or two guns should be "free", IE. you'd get to choose from two different guns with different playstyles without requiring Merits. - Perhaps research could lower the individual cost of guns (conversely, increase res output)
Weapons should -still- be able to be dropped by the commander at his discretion.
Bigger/more-expensive guns/equipment eg. heavy armour, should be at the -sole- discretion of the commander.
Now, so long as the commander isn't an ######, (boot him, boot him) it should work pretty well... theoretically.
I think you should also be able to recycle dropped/unused weapons/ammo for res :/ (only the ones that actually cost anything in the first place though)
I also like the other ideas like the commander can put a certain amount in stock, and marines pull them out as required, sounds good. But maybe limitations on specific weapons could be placed through the Merits/External-Rank system.
I'unno. Have fun with it.
Does NS work now? The NS system encourages getting kills quite well already, you can't push people to kill more when your gameplay already revolves around killing.
Its actually more like ME VS ALIEN TEAM 90% of the time. I look at most pubbers purely as hit points since they can't aim. If someone can aim, they suddenly become an equal and I don't have to bait them anymore.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
AHHHHHHHHH! I suggest that you actually <u>read </u>the previous posts rather than continue on the same tune! BUT I now under stand why you have the stance you do! Your one of those players I'm actually talking about. Your team mates are not expendable items. You protect each other. They are not extra hit points.
Senorio: A fade turns up mid game, blinking back to a gorge well out of range for regular healing. A1, SG and WLD all round, marine squad of 3-4
Here is my style:
When a fade zooms in and hits the guy in front removing his armor thats your cue to get in front of him while he gets welded at the back. COM drops meds, marine group pushes forward.
Your style:
You hang back and let him your team mate die in the vain hope that you can kill the fade on the next pass, he blinks back and gets healed (again) and your now a man down. The fade picks everyone off one by one.
Now if you only reward players with guns for kills everyone will adopt your strat which is not a ESS! If you reward the guy welding, the other squad members for dealing damage etc you get better team play. So lets assume your right and half the players can't shoot straight would it not be good for you the lean mean killing machine to get a weld or are you so good you never take damage?
...
*cough*
anyway,
*shrug* to address some of the newbies that don't know which gun they should use,
just add a description, rate of fire, caliber+muzzle velocity (or just damage), etc.
and add a 'best used in close quarters' or 'best used in open areas' etc.
plus some backstory behind the weapon, just for fun
(weapon variety, even if only through the visual appearance (different colour schemes, accessories) is a definite must. and this was in another topic, but - left-handed weapon models)
i definitely have to say, you give players a 'first choice' for the first weapon (they'll always spawn with this gun/set of equipment), one that emphasises skill (lmg with less spread(more accuracy)), another that's basically a newbie weapon (lmg(smg?) with greater spread (less accuracy), greater ammo, less damage?) and/or a shotgun (which there could be a variety for - newbie version as a first weapon choice, better version to be unlocked by comm)
need at least two, though, imo. so lmg and smg, or lmg and weak shotgun
i also agree that we DEFINITELY do NOT use 'money' or $, or any form of currency - well, credits doesn't sound so bad - but this is an active effort by the TSA - the military - to eliminate the kharaa threat, they wouldn't leave the purchase of weapons to grunts. as someone said, they're not mercs.
but things like prestige, merit, achievement, influence or recquisition (like in w40k dawn of war) (some sound spendable like recquisition, most others sound like a separate 'score')
but i still don't favour adding a second resource - even if you say the commander shouldn't have to worry about res management, well, that's pretty much his job :\
res is an integral part of NS, and should also be an integral part of NS2, take that part away and... pretty much screw ns classic, it's combat with buildings. (personally i don't have a problem with combat, it's enjoyable, so long as you keep it as a separate game-mode, diversify.)
for late-joiners, in either the money or 'score' systems (not ingame score, which is influenced mostly by kills - so there'd be more emphasis on working for the team, welding, following orders and such), maybe you could just give them an equal score to the lowest/poorest player on the team (of course if there's a player that remains poor/low-score from the start of the game, this becomes a problem - so an alternative could be a mean or median, then if necessary adjusted 'down' to give the new player a bit less than the 'average' player on the team)
i like afratnikov's ideas of, specific weapon discounts for the 'money' system [at the cost of other guns? important - no guns should be free apart from the first-weapon-choice] (to 'lure' a marine into buying a certain gun or equipment), and encouragement for weapon diversity
CanadianWolverine> "To add to the "request" formula, I would like that to extend to making templates, starting at a personal level, then going up to squad level, where so many numbers of templates make up a squad. The idea being here that a template is a Commander's request to the marines to follow certain guidelines, I am certain this would help the new players with choosing equipment as well. The squad level informs the marine choosing from the templates that the Commander requests a certain make up of the team going into the field, so that combined arms is observed and the team not totally weak in a particular area, like close combat or DI removal."
I like this idea. Whether it'll work, who knows? I think you could combine this with afratnikov's ideas. You'd have a template that tells you what you should get, and the prices of the guns would influence you to -get- that equipment, it gives you incentive, more than just because it's best for the team (and gamers are pretty selfish people).
the comm-request idea sounds good. and there'd be an icon in the corner that'd flash (kinda like a "peon idle" alert) that you click/press a button and it'd bring up the list of active requests to which it's a simple yes/no (or postpone your decision)
it should be cheaper res-wise to let marines take guns from the armoury, and cost more to do a conscious drop of a gun to a place without marine buildings nearby - and even greater to a place with DI?
but the thing is, do flayra and max want a cs-like system more to a) take responsibility away from the commander, or b) give the marines greater freedom and independence from the commander?
i'm not asking what it'll achieve - it'll achieve varying degrees of both - i'm asking what the -intention- is, because some of the suggestions are more a than b, others more b than a
a is essentially reducing the commander's micro-management (less grief for the commander), b is giving the individual players more control over their equipment (less grief for the marines) [which is best achieved through a 'money' system - which i don't particularly favour] which i think doesn't make much sense in the NS universe (for reasons already discussed)
a lot of the ideas/suggestions expressed here, is -generally- on the assumption that the commander knows what he's doing. so, gotta adjust for bad commanders.
<!--quoteo(post=1665210:date=Dec 25 2007, 05:43 PM:name=Misere)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Misere @ Dec 25 2007, 05:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665210"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->AHHHHHHHHH! I suggest that you actually <u>read </u>the previous posts rather than continue on the same tune! BUT I now under stand why you have the stance you do! Your one of those players I'm actually talking about. Your team mates are not expendable items. You protect each other. They are not extra hit points.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its weird because it goes both ways. I don't mind walking forward unless I know there is a ridiculous amount of skulks ahead and nowhere to dodge them. (I'd run inside of cargo and tripple jump off the boxes and hope the baddies behind me can shoot skulks)
The average player on a pub is just about worthless. A lot of the pubbers go like 1:4kd in a game.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Senorio: A fade turns up mid game, blinking back to a gorge well out of range for regular healing. A1, SG and WLD all round, marine squad of 3-4
Here is my style:
When a fade zooms in and hits the guy in front removing his armor thats your cue to get in front of him while he gets welded at the back. COM drops meds, marine group pushes forward.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And then you slowly crawl into cargo, doing absolutely nothing to the fade and losing a marine or two in the process because its a smart fade and takes risks accordingly. When inside cargo, you instantly get gas'd, skulk'd and faded and every marine on G4B2S dies because phantom/dante/enigma dominate you. (actually its more like the BADCLAN server)
That sounds more realistic. The game plays out for the next 40 minutes while phanton/dante/enigma rack up 200 fade kills and it ends as a miserable loss for marines.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Your style:
You hang back and let him your team mate die in the vain hope that you can kill the fade on the next pass, he blinks back and gets healed (again) and your now a man down. The fade picks everyone off one by one.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually I was talking about early game, what I'd actually do in that case:
Alternatively: I solo through chem trans with a shotgun blowing away thousands upon thousands of walker skulks while said marines are getting dominated on their way to cargo. Take my time, kill a RT or two. Fade gets told that I'm in acidic. Fade gets solo'd. Successful push, gg.
I was actually referring to the early game, before fades. Always bait your teammates when you know someone will have to die. You don't want to die, now do you? I mean, you can put your skill to better use in a little bit because you're better than your bait right?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Now if you only reward players with guns for kills everyone will adopt your strat which is not a ESS! If you reward the guy welding, the other squad members for dealing damage etc you get better team play. So lets assume your right and half the players can't shoot straight would it not be good for you the lean mean killing machine to get a weld or are you so good you never take damage?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because the only teamwork exhibited in a game is obviously welding/humping your teammates?
Well you seem very certain of yourself, sounds like your a one man killing machine!
<!--quoteo(post=1665269:date=Dec 26 2007, 08:57 AM:name=Domining)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Domining @ Dec 26 2007, 08:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665269"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Because the only teamwork exhibited in a game is obviously welding/humping your teammates?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You obviously have not been listening, Here is what I think you should get rewarded for (in no order of importance) when it comes to both yours score <u>AND </u> earning points for guns under the new system:
Killing aliens
Killing structures
Dealing damage
Building structures
Welding structures
Welding vents shut
Moving you COMs waypoints/objectives
You seem to only focus on the first one and that does not make you a good player to have on your NS side, just someone who is great to have on your CO side.
You obviously have not been listening, Here is what I think you should get rewarded for (in no order of importance) when it comes to both yours score <u>AND </u> earning points for guns under the new system:
Killing aliens
Killing structures
Dealing damage
Building structures
Welding structures
Welding vents shut
Moving you COMs waypoints/objectives
You seem to only focus on the first one and that does not make you a good player to have on your NS side, just someone who is great to have on your CO side.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Perhaps there should be a squad member radius? If you do any of those actions within a certain radius of another squad member or more, you get double points for that action?
It's at least 1 step ahead to enforcing teamwork.
"Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy other targets to shoot at."
Why thank you, would you like some frag videos?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You obviously have not been listening, Here is what I think you should get rewarded for (in no order of importance) when it comes to both yours score <u>AND </u> earning points for guns under the new system:
Killing aliens
Killing structures
Dealing damage
Building structures
Welding structures
Welding vents shut
Moving you COMs waypoints/objectives<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sounds fair, as long as it doesn't include what the man below suggested.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You seem to only focus on the first one and that does not make you a good player to have on your NS side, just someone who is great to have on your CO side.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
On the contrary, killing aliens is the most important part of ns, it accounts for 90% of winning. The other 10% being not having a dumb commander/bad teammates.
<!--quoteo(post=1665298:date=Dec 26 2007, 07:19 PM:name=Heskey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Heskey @ Dec 26 2007, 07:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665298"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Perhaps there should be a squad member radius? If you do any of those actions within a certain radius of another squad member or more, you get double points for that action?
It's at least 1 step ahead to enforcing teamwork.
"Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy other targets to shoot at."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Of course teamwork means humping your teammates. Right?
By no means, every member of your team has to gather up in a 2x2m box and travel like that throughout the map going about whatever it is that Heskey does in game. Ultimate teamwork strategerie yo!
but seriously, 90% of winning is from killing aliens? :/ poor joke.
Luckily, you aren't important enough for the devs to care about.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->but seriously, 90% of winning is from killing aliens? :/ poor joke.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Please, share with me. How can you win this game if your team isn't killing any aliens? Better yet, how can you win this game if the aliens are getting more kills than the marines?
Please, share with me. How can you win this game if your team isn't killing any aliens? Better yet, <b>how can you win this game if the aliens are getting more kills than the marines?</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Condescending and self congratulatory attitude aside, I will address your question:
Kill the hive.
It is possible for a Kharaa team to be laying waste to marines and suddenly lose the match when their second or on rare occasions first hive to bite the dust.
This is one of those rare games where your Kill to Death ratio does not count for everything.
I am sure we are all impressed with those players who can put bullets into the target, but honestly, with fast moving and ambushing Kharaa, more marines putting ammo down range counts for far more. Marines who can form a firing line, covering each other as they reload and weld each other, count for far more to a match then a nigh aim bot rambo.
What exactly does this have to do with NS2 Marine Weapon system? Merit, points, score, etc equaling a players contribution to the team. Rambos contribute less to their comrades, even if they have higher kill scores. Its a team's total objectives accomplished that count far more than kills.
Killing hives wins games, killing Kharaa is only note worthy if is a part of achieving the win game objective.
So, if you reward a player's merit with equipment, it better reflect the goals of a teamwork game, not the death match monstrosity that Domining and other "leet" gamers seem to be playing, irregardless of team objectives. Why does that sound like CS: Death Match disguised as a Team game? Oh right, that's called Team Death Match <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> Pah, NS2 can be better than that, and so can its weapon buy system.
if u spectate on a bot sever full of noobs long enuth you may see the noobs loose to the bots dispite geting 2-3times more kills than the bots.
why does this happen, because there are factors other than killing effiecney that can effect the game, mostly strategy and team cohesiveness
Killing a hive is a primary objective, its true. But its not the least common denominator. How can you kill a hive without killing aliens? It is true that a marine without any kills can still win a game because his teammates are mopping the floors with aliens, and I'm assuming that you are that marine if you don't agree that killing aliens is important. Nothing marines can do, can they do by being pacifists. Its simple, if you don't kill aliens, aliens will kill you.
We aren't going off topic, we are discussing just how important getting kills is in NS and how much it should account for.
<!--quoteo(post=1665450:date=Dec 28 2007, 10:32 AM:name=invader Zim)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(invader Zim @ Dec 28 2007, 10:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665450"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i agree with the wolverine the k:D ratio often but not always reflects who wins. often on pubs aliens may win the game and have alower number of kills than the rines say rines 220kills to alien 200 kills.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It doesn't work the same way for aliens as it does for marines. Aliens only have to come close to the same amount of kills as marines because losing a skulk is never as bad as losing a marine.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->if u spectate on a bot sever full of noobs long enuth you may see the noobs loose to the bots dispite geting 2-3times more kills than the bots.
why does this happen, because there are factors other than killing effiecney that can effect the game, mostly strategy and team cohesiveness<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Of course bots have better team strategy, am i rite?
Killing a hive is a primary objective, its true. But its not the least common denominator. <b>How can you kill a hive without killing aliens?</b> It is true that a marine without any kills can still win a game because his teammates are mopping the floors with aliens, and <i>I'm assuming that you are that marine if you don't agree that killing aliens is important.</i> Nothing marines can do, can they do by being pacifists. Its simple, if you don't kill aliens, aliens will kill you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To answer the bold: Ninja the hive. I am assuming experienced players know what I mean by this.
To answer the italic: You assume. You know what happens when you assume? I already wrote that in my own experience, Marines do more damage to the Kharaa when they form a firing line, covering each as they reload and watching each other's flanks and sixes (backs). More ammunition down range, especially with cones of fire, count for far more than being an uber rambo.
Teamwork <i>greater than</i> Deathmatch.
What I seem to see you describing as the evidence for your thesis is the end game for marine, when they are trapped in the marine start with no way out, where ninja'ing a hive is no longer even an option. Unless the Marine's main base is locked down by the Kharaa, there is always a chance the Marines can flank the Kharaa and insert troops past the main line into a Hive, with setting up a forward seige, phase gate rushes, and shot gun rushes. The whole premise of the "bait" style of play is anti-teamwork play at its worst, and goes against a lot of what is possible for Marine teams that don't give up and die hard.
<b>Any merit system for the weapon buy system of a Marine needs to take into account Teamwork far more than Deathmatch scores, or NS2 is going to fail in teamwork just like CS.</b>
Only possible against bots/people as dumb as bots. I have no clue how you can miss something as big as a marine building a phase gate outside of your hive, aliens must be helens. I don't recall being ninja'd ever in the last 2 years be it a pub or a scrim or a match.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To answer the italic: You assume. You know what happens when you assume? I already wrote that in my own experience, Marines do more damage to the Kharaa when they form a firing line, covering each as they reload and watching each other's flanks and sixes (backs). More ammunition down range, especially with cones of fire, count for far more than being an uber rambo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You should totally write a NS_LEARN article.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Teamwork <i>greater than</i> Deathmatch.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What deathmatch are you talking about?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What I seem to see you describing as the evidence for your thesis is the end game for marine, when they are trapped in the marine start with no way out, where ninja'ing a hive is no longer even an option. Unless the Marine's main base is locked down by the Kharaa, there is always a chance the Marines can flank the Kharaa and insert troops past the main line into a Hive, with setting up a forward seige, phase gate rushes, and shot gun rushes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What I'm describing is early game to mid game when marines die without being able to cap more than 2/3 nodes and failing to push anywhere because their mean k:d is ~1:1.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The whole premise of the "bait" style of play is anti-teamwork play at its worst, and goes against a lot of what is possible for Marine teams that don't give up and die hard.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What is possible in NS and how would you organize it? How do you propose moving past alien ambushes? Why is baiting not a team oriented strategy?
Even at the highest denomination of play, there always is a bait who has to walk forward to the end of the corner and immediately double jump backwards. He has rely on his teammates to kill the 2 skulks bunnyhopping at him from around the corner. That's evidence of teamwork in baiting.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>Any merit system for the weapon buy system of a Marine needs to take into account Teamwork far more than Deathmatch scores, or NS2 is going to fail in teamwork just like CS.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Deathmatch scores? Deathmatch is impossible when so many strategies exist. Since marines have to kill aliens and have to do it extremely well, and have to kill aliens no matter what strategy they are aiming for, its only fair to reward it the most.
Just because it doesn't seem to happen to you doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What deathmatch are you talking about?
What I'm describing is early game to mid game when marines die without being able to cap more than 2/3 nodes and failing to push anywhere because their mean k:d is ~1:1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The same one you are. The winning goal a gamer aims for in deathmatch is to be the one with the most kills aka highest score. IMHO (<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deathmatch_%28gaming%29" target="_blank">And Others Gamers' Opinions</a>), if the main way gamers distinguish themselves with K : D ratios, that is deathmatch.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What is possible in NS and how would you organize it?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is clearly bait, as in flame, I am sure you understand just what playing Marine in NS1 entails.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Even at the highest denomination of play, there always is a bait who has to walk forward to the end of the corner and immediately double jump backwards. He has rely on his teammates to kill the 2 skulks bunnyhopping at him from around the corner. That's evidence of teamwork in baiting.
<b>How do you propose moving past alien ambushes? Why is baiting not a team oriented strategy?</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
b: Are you refering to moving past ambushes in the proposed gameplay of NS2 or moving past them in the current version of NS1? Sure, in the current version of NS1, baiting can be a viable team strategy if worked out with other willing participants, at the expense of a new player is not ideal though. Personally, I prefer the use of grenades to flush out ambushers from likely spots, such as evident choke points like doorways or hiding spots like vents and crates - then moving forward with a CQB entry tactics like cutting your piece of the pie and not stopping and blocking a team mate(s) in the choke point. Explosive entry is my preference over baiting any day. The reason why I consider baiting to be anti to team play is because it is at the expense of a team mate. It makes me think of a funny story that ends with "I don't have to be the fastest runner, I just have to run faster than the other guy." Ideal team play IMHO is with the consent of the other players, not at the expense of their fun.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Deathmatch scores? Deathmatch is impossible when so many strategies exist. Since marines have to kill aliens and have to do it extremely well, and have to kill aliens no matter what strategy they are aiming for, its only fair to reward it the most.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Reward it the most as an individual or the most for the entire team? I disagree with rewarding an individual for it, I've seen where that leads in Counter Strike. And as you illustrate, if the entire team is doing more kills than the other team, then the are already being rewarded, with a win. To properly reward players so that they feel comfortable with any tactic or strategy, no one way should gain more than any other: if a gamer has fun playing NS2 as a bad ass welder - builder mofo, then why stop them from the same sense of reward as the bad ass shotgun blasting mofo? If one of those player's play styles (or any others) was discouraged from playing because they were rewarded less than others by the game's reward system, the team would be out that role. I wonder how far "leet" nigh aim bot killer players would get without the supporting team roles ... <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
Weapon System by which Marine buy their own weapons. This discussion came about after comments from the Unknown Worlds - Natural Selection 2 Developers mentioned Marines buying their own weapons.
Currently, I favor the idea of two types of resources, personal and team, the use of a request system where team resources are involved, and the Commander having the ability to give resources to the team when they so desire.
With regards to the personal resources, how those resources are rewarded is what I am debating currently. IMHO, there has to be a better way(s) to reward a Marine with the resources needed to purchase equipment than exclusively or heavily weighted in favor of kills to deaths ratios. I have seen how that plays out in Counter Strike, and I don't find what can be only loosely called team game play to be at all enjoyable or even in the spirit of the kind of team game play Natural Selection 1 (Half Life 1 mod) dished out, which I throughly enjoyed despite its short comings.
It isn't a viable tactic against non-helens.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The same one you are. The winning goal a gamer aims for in deathmatch is to be the one with the most kills aka highest score. IMHO (<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deathmatch_%28gaming%29" target="_blank">And Others Gamers' Opinions</a>), if the main way gamers distinguish themselves with K : D ratios, that is deathmatch.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Most death match modes of play pit every player against every other player. This is more like TDM, although not quite. I don't shoot aliens because I want points, I shoot aliens because I want to shoot aliens. Shooting aliens is the only fun part of NS. I don't consider building rts as any sort of fun what so ever.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That is clearly bait, as in flame, I am sure you understand just what playing Marine in NS1 entails.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you're referring to your second part of your above ^ sentence then yea, your second part of a sentence is a bait. My question was legitimate and you're dodging it by arguing ad hominem.
What I do and don't know aside, I'm curious what players who have never played a competitive game of NS consider tactics for moving past ambushes.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->b: Are you refering to moving past ambushes in the proposed gameplay of NS2 or moving past them in the current version of NS1? Sure, in the current version of NS1, baiting can be a viable team strategy if worked out with other willing participants, at the expense of a new player is not ideal though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Chances are, that's the best use you can put a "new" player to. Sacrifice him in the name of winning.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Personally, I prefer the use of grenades to flush out ambushers from likely spots, such as evident choke points like doorways or hiding spots like vents and crates<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The amount of times grenades counter ambushes is laughable in this game. You only get 2, can't cover every single camping spot with them and besides, I'd rather save them for when I'll have to grenade a lerk/fade on top of the hive.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- then moving forward with a CQB entry tactics like cutting your piece of the pie and not stopping and blocking a team mate(s) in the choke point.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No team, CPL or not, can communicate that well to adjust their view cones to cover every single angle. Besides, if you go all in at once, you'll have no choice but to block each other. There is very rarely enough space to dodge skulks properly/throw your hitbox out of your teammate's way so you both can shoot at the skulk.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The reason why I consider baiting to be anti to team play is because it is at the expense of a team mate. It makes me think of a funny story that ends with "I don't have to be the fastest runner, I just have to run faster than the other guy." Ideal team play IMHO is with the consent of the other players, not at the expense of their fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Someone has to go first, might as well pull straws. But thankfully, there are plenty of volunteers who don't know better. They'll learn at some point.
New players get dominated in all games, not just NS. Try starting playing CS, if you don't instantly get frustrated by being headshotted/awp'd by someone you didn't even see coming, let me know.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Reward it the most as an individual or the most for the entire team? I disagree with rewarding an individual for it, I've seen where that leads in Counter Strike. And as you illustrate, if the entire team is doing more kills than the other team, then the are already being rewarded, with a win. To properly reward players so that they feel comfortable with any tactic or strategy, no one way should gain more than any other: if a gamer has fun playing NS2 as a bad ass welder - builder mofo, then why stop them from the same sense of reward as the bad ass shotgun blasting mofo? If one of those player's play styles (or any others) was discouraged from playing because they were rewarded less than others by the game's reward system, the team would be out that role.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Simple, the bad shotgun blasting, fade slaying mofo most probably has been playing this game longer and is better. He should be rewarded more because he did the role he is doing better than anyone else on the team can. The chances are, if you can aim and move that good, you can probably build RTs and weld teammates as good as that guy too.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I wonder how far "leet" nigh aim bot killer players would get without the supporting team roles ... <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And by supporting team roles you must mean internet friends. All you need is 2 good marines to commence the spawn camp. A round of GGs will be passed.
When I refer to "nades", to clarify, I include the grenade launcher in that.
I won't describe NS1 to you, we've both played it, as I clearly recognize from your many posts on the subject.
I find it interesting that bizarre that you have never enjoyed coordination in CQB on the same level as I have, where the angles are covered upon entry, over lapping fields of fire are used, and team mates don't block each other. And I am describing public play. I guess you haven't had the pleasure of playing with OldF before, those are a fun group of gamers. I play TF2 with them from time to time these days.
Finally, shot gun blaster and the guy behind him welding both contribute equally to the surviving and thriving of the team, IMHO. It seems we are just playing two different games. I rather enjoy the team dynamics I get in NS and loathe the situations you describe. You are free to keep your competitive play ... oh, by the way, how is that doing these days? Getting lots of new players from the pubs trying out for the leagues? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
Clearly, we disagree about what NS1 is about. Its almost like we have been playing two different games from what you are describing. When, IMHO, NS1 stoops to the spawn camping, noob sacrificing, kills to deaths ratio bragging game you describe, I get bored with NS1 and go play something else that does TDM better.
I want better than that for NS2, those things you describe in NS1 are stuff I see as needing fixing or out right removal from the game play. The farther NS2 moves from Counter Strike game experience, the more I will enjoy it.
<b>I do not enjoy the way players buy weapons in CS, I do not want to see that in NS2. Period.</b>
BTW I don't play NS anymore. Its TF2 now.
What about the NS2 Marine Weapon system could make it special again?
<!--quoteo(post=1665619:date=Dec 30 2007, 12:26 AM:name=CanadianWolverine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CanadianWolverine @ Dec 30 2007, 12:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665619"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Weapon System by which Marine buy their own weapons. This discussion came about after comments from the Unknown Worlds - Natural Selection 2 Developers mentioned Marines buying their own weapons.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
...yea. i know. it was rhetorical and slightly sarcastic. rhetorical questions are those that don't need answers - but instead, they make you think. i just wanted to <b>remind</b> certain people what we were discussing here.
let's see if i can find the last on-topic post..
I see assists being a part of kills. Since baiting is so key to NS maybe it should have a special assist point in NS.
<!--quoteo(post=1665292:date=Dec 26 2007, 05:33 PM:name=Misere)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Misere @ Dec 26 2007, 05:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665292"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well you seem very certain of yourself, sounds like your a one man killing machine!
Here is what I think you should get rewarded for (in no order of importance) when it comes to both yours score <u>AND </u> earning points for guns under the new system:
Killing aliens
Killing structures
Dealing damage
Building structures
Welding structures
Welding vents shut
Moving you COMs waypoints/objectives
You seem to only focus on the first one and that does not make you a good player to have on your NS side, just someone who is great to have on your CO side.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed.
<!--quoteo(post=1665407:date=Dec 28 2007, 01:17 AM:name=CanadianWolverine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CanadianWolverine @ Dec 28 2007, 01:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665407"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Kill the hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1665463:date=Dec 28 2007, 11:25 AM:name=Domining)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Domining @ Dec 28 2007, 11:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665463"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No matter how good your strategy is, you can't win this game if your marines are dying.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
See above. It's not that uncommon. Especially since alien kill count jumps when a fade shows up.
<!--quoteo(post=1665665:date=Dec 29 2007, 05:59 PM:name=Domining)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Domining @ Dec 29 2007, 05:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665665"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS was something special a long, long time ago when I wasn't involved in any competitive leagues. But then after seeing what REAL teamwork is about, it got boring and all that was left was killing aliens in pubs.
BTW I don't play NS anymore. Its TF2 now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you don't like real teamwork, why did you like competitive NS? I'm really curious since you often make posts to the tune of CAL being the be all end all of NS, but why would you want NS2 to be like that if you don't even like it?
Further, commanders could be given the ability to "focus" the armory, allowing only one type of weapon to be generated, but generating at a faster rate. So preparing for a shotgun rush or other strategy to be viable, and in control of the commander, while allowing players to generally select their own weapon under other circumstances. This way both commander and marine have both freedom and choice that could mesh well.
More dynamics to such a concept: Armories would be more strategic targets for the Kharaa. In addition, multiple armories could be built to ensure that weapons are being created at a faster rate, or focusing multiple weapon types. (Shotgun/HMG) (It would likely be wise to set a limit to how many armories could be in play, for example, 2 or 3, set as a server variable for larger servers, or competitive play, but we'll say default is 2.) OR second, third armories could have higher costs, scaling as more armories are in play.
In reference to other suggestions, I think having a personal currency is dangerous. It rewards certain roles, but not others. A good K/D ratio doesn't mean you're playing a winning game. Players competing over finishing the build of a structure to get points, or complaints of stealing kills, killing blows, certain commanded roles etc. are real possibilities.
Addendum: The commander should still have the ability to "buyout" a weapon immediately for a certain costs, similar to how it exists now (although perhaps at a higher relative cost as the economy of NS2 is still in question.) That way, if there's a prime player that the commander wants to gear out, he can do so if the weapon has already been taken, or hasn't been created yet.
Reading comprehension.
I <u>ONLY</u> like real teamwork, the teamwork exhibited on public servers is and always will be laughable no matter how hard you try. Many games have tried and tried to enforce teamwork but the best that came out is "everyone rush a, I SAID EVERYONE" And then everyone rushes A with medics healing and stuff. That's the end of that teamwork.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm really curious since you often make posts to the tune of CAL being the be all end all of NS<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Competitive leagues are the be end of all games because they provide competent players you can choose to play with, some even without repulsive personality disorders.