NS2 Marine Weapon system
afratnikov
Join Date: 2003-08-05 Member: 18931Members
Join Date: 2003-08-05 Member: 18931Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Marines choose and buy own weapons. What is commander's role?</div>Marine weapons will be handled quite differently in NS2. From <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns/2007/10/seventh_podcast" target="_blank">7th podcast</a>:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Max: Well, one thing that we kind’ve mentioned on the blog is allowing player to essentially purchase weapons, almost like a counterstrike kind’ve thing.
Charlie: Right.
Max: Um, you know, they wouldn’t be able to purchase anything, they would still be tied to the commander. In terms of the commander would research new technologies, and resources also factor into there, but the guy on the ground would have a lot more flexibility in choosing, ok I really like working with the shotgun so I’m gonna get that. Or, um, you know that kind of thing.
Charlie: And the key here being that the commander would make the strategic decision that they wanna, like, devote their resources towards like, say shotguns, or, I dunno, laser or weapons or, you know, sniper, not that those things are gonna go in, but say flamethrowers, and then the marines on the ground actually purchase the flamethrowers. So that way the commander does the strategy and the person on the ground still choose their play style.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Post your ideas on how the new Weapon System might work. For simplicity, assume that that the weapons are from NS1 - this topic is NOT meant to discuss ideas for new Marine weapons.
Also, try to think from a soldier's point of view:
- How much control do you want to have in choosing your weapon/equipment?
- How could the Weapon System make the game more enjoyable even under a bad comm?
================================================================================
If you're reading this thread for the first time, read <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=103418&view=findpost&p=1666228" target="_blank">Misere's summary of ideas</a>.
Summary of ideas on first 3 pages:
The NS2 Weapon System will allow marines to decide for themselves what weapons they will use, but the commander will still affects their choices.
*note: the post # is on top right of each post. There are 20 posts per page.
Marines earn their own "money" and buy weapons they choose [Post #: 3, <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=103418&view=findpost&p=1663971" target="_blank">16</a>, 23, 25]
Timer instead of Money as marine resource [Post #: 13, 14, 15]
Marines request for weapons and the comm decides what team load-out should be [Post #: 20, 28, 34, 36, 42, 47]
Commander's indirect control of marines' load-out [Post #: 31, 35]
Marines get weapons for free after a costly research by comm [Post #: 39, 41, 43]
Marines earn own res, but comm can still buy weapons [Post #: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=103418&st=40&p=1664749&#entry1664749" target="_blank">48</a>]
Commander buys weapons to the armory, players choose the weapon from storage [Post #: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=103418&view=findpost&p=1666592" target="_blank">99</a>, 100, ]
Commander uses scoreboard-like screen to know how marines are equipped, respond to their requests, and give new equipment (includes a picture!)[Post #: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=103418&view=findpost&p=1666800" target="_blank">102</a>, 103, 116]
Other:
Collection of things to consider [Post #: 2, 4, 6, 10, 18, 19]
EDITS: If you think i should change or add something here, send me a PM.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Max: Well, one thing that we kind’ve mentioned on the blog is allowing player to essentially purchase weapons, almost like a counterstrike kind’ve thing.
Charlie: Right.
Max: Um, you know, they wouldn’t be able to purchase anything, they would still be tied to the commander. In terms of the commander would research new technologies, and resources also factor into there, but the guy on the ground would have a lot more flexibility in choosing, ok I really like working with the shotgun so I’m gonna get that. Or, um, you know that kind of thing.
Charlie: And the key here being that the commander would make the strategic decision that they wanna, like, devote their resources towards like, say shotguns, or, I dunno, laser or weapons or, you know, sniper, not that those things are gonna go in, but say flamethrowers, and then the marines on the ground actually purchase the flamethrowers. So that way the commander does the strategy and the person on the ground still choose their play style.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Post your ideas on how the new Weapon System might work. For simplicity, assume that that the weapons are from NS1 - this topic is NOT meant to discuss ideas for new Marine weapons.
Also, try to think from a soldier's point of view:
- How much control do you want to have in choosing your weapon/equipment?
- How could the Weapon System make the game more enjoyable even under a bad comm?
================================================================================
If you're reading this thread for the first time, read <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=103418&view=findpost&p=1666228" target="_blank">Misere's summary of ideas</a>.
Summary of ideas on first 3 pages:
The NS2 Weapon System will allow marines to decide for themselves what weapons they will use, but the commander will still affects their choices.
*note: the post # is on top right of each post. There are 20 posts per page.
Marines earn their own "money" and buy weapons they choose [Post #: 3, <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=103418&view=findpost&p=1663971" target="_blank">16</a>, 23, 25]
Timer instead of Money as marine resource [Post #: 13, 14, 15]
Marines request for weapons and the comm decides what team load-out should be [Post #: 20, 28, 34, 36, 42, 47]
Commander's indirect control of marines' load-out [Post #: 31, 35]
Marines get weapons for free after a costly research by comm [Post #: 39, 41, 43]
Marines earn own res, but comm can still buy weapons [Post #: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=103418&st=40&p=1664749&#entry1664749" target="_blank">48</a>]
Commander buys weapons to the armory, players choose the weapon from storage [Post #: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=103418&view=findpost&p=1666592" target="_blank">99</a>, 100, ]
Commander uses scoreboard-like screen to know how marines are equipped, respond to their requests, and give new equipment (includes a picture!)[Post #: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=103418&view=findpost&p=1666800" target="_blank">102</a>, 103, 116]
Other:
Collection of things to consider [Post #: 2, 4, 6, 10, 18, 19]
EDITS: If you think i should change or add something here, send me a PM.
Comments
the marines could get money
depending on the marines score (like you have a higher rank -> get more) and marines RTs, the money is earned faster.
the marines can now spend their money to buy weapons from the weapon-cargo the commander fills up.
so the marines can use their money only to buy guns off the weaponpool the commander bought
the money system, based on the players <u>score</u>, is meant to get a fair ranking within the team - who's allowed to get more weapons etc
the money system, based on the <u>marines RTs</u>, is meant to balance the value of weaps the comm buys and the marines take. not that the comm buys lots of weapons but marines aint able to take 'em
That way when you die you keep your rank, and you can repurchase the items you lost.
That way, say the 3rd rank players with low scores will be able to get welders and shotguns as they spawn, the first rank players on the server will be able to get Jetpacks and Heavy Machine Guns.
And the Weapons-cache could be separate from the armory, when you click on it, it brings up a menu with icons for every weapon with several options...
1) Supply - Creates one unit of selected weapon and stores in the Weapons-cache.
2) Resupply - Creates one unit of selection weapon and stores in the Weapons-cache, whenever this weapon is taken from the Weapons-cache, a new weapon of the same type will be added.
What options do marines have regarding weapons?
- individual money-pool to spend on weapons
-- How do they get money? (killing aliens/building/comm spending res)
- choose load-out with which to spawn (or always spawn with LMG?)
- where will weapons be chosen? (armory and/or new buildings)
- only choose weapons or also JP/HA?
- can weapons be picked up when you die?
-- Are weapons transferable
- purchase items outside base (such as meds/ammo/scan)
- purchase individual upgrades for weapons?
How does the commander define marine strategy?
- How to unlock new weapons? (research and/or new buildings?)
-- What should be the cost for these upgrades/buildings?
- Are there items that only the commander can purchase for marines (JP/HA/Mines)?
- specific weapon upgrades (such as +10% fire rate for HMG)
- research weapon discounts (HMG cost reduced)
- general upgrades for marines (Armor/weapon upg/Motion tracking + anything new?)
- For Rushes: can res be spent to let marines get extra money to purchase weapons?
This is just brainstorming - I don't agree with everything i put here.
locallyunscene, you bring an important concern. If marines choose their weapons, then the commander has a lot less ability to control the game. He might beacon and tell everyone to get JP+shotguns and rush the hive, but instead some people might get HMGs or HAs, some might not have money to buy JP etc... Another point is that researching specific weapon upgrades might force everyone to use the same weapons. Both are valid points.
I think the new weapon system will take a lot of control away from the commander - however with less control comes less responsibility. Maybe the commander should focus on global strategy instead of deciding what weapon each marine gets. If some marine-players don't choose to follow the global strategy the commander has set for them, they will be at a disadvantage, but could still have weapons if they kill aliens. The marines will need to listen to comm's plans and the comm will need to listen to marines' needs
Here's how a rush could work:
In the process of the game, the commander researched some general upgrades as wells as shotguns amd hmg to counter fades that pop up. He chose not to unlock GLs because there's no need for them. Now he researches JP. At this point, some people run around with shotguns and when the JP is researched some buy JP for themselves. Next, the comm tells everyone that they'll JP-rush hive. He beakons and uses an ability to purchases money for marines using his own res. Most players get JP and shotgun/HMG (their choice) and fly to hive. A few don't know what they're doing, get HMG/welder and go rambo the map...
Even specific upgrades could work, if they're not too big. Commander might choose to add 10% to HMG RoF if there are many fades and onos, which would encourage marines to buy them, but SGs+GLs still would be necessary against buildings. And marines will need to make that choice, not the commander.
c0ke: interesting idea that would encourage marines to cap RTs. I was thinking that marines could be given money for every kill they score: something like skulk = $X, RT=$Y, fade=$Z and/or damage done, but adding RTs to the equation is even better.
This is a complex issue - please keep posting
Now, the comm tells everyone that they'll JP-rush hive. He beacons and uses an ability to purchases money for marines using his own res.
Most players get JP and shotgun/HMG (their choice) and fly to hive. A few don't know what they're doing, get HMG/welder and go rambo the map...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wah, WoL of Text! Anyway, I think that's a pretty good solution for the "making sure everyone gets what they need" problem. I would imagine the commander would have the ability to lock out certain weapons and/or certain players.
Perhaps half its a separate points system; there's lower RFK which goes straight to the comm, but individual marines get to spend their points (how they get +5 points for killing an RT in NS1, etc). Something along those lines.
So players could occasionally get their own guns or welders or whatnot, but the comm could still save up for his own set of equipment.
If only i could express myself more concisely - I was tempted to put a 2 page description of how this weapon system might work, but then decided to just ask what others think. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/nerd-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::nerdy::" border="0" alt="nerd-fix.gif" />
The goal of this post is to give Charlie and Max some additional ideas on topics they already think about. They <u><b>will</b></u> change the Marine Weapons System and they graciously told us in what direction they're planning to take it. The best we can do is:
- give them feedback on what we think of this new direction
- point out any problems/concerns
- offer solutions/ideas to improve it
That way when you die you keep your rank, and you can repurchase the items you lost.
That way, say the 3rd rank players with low scores will be able to get welders and shotguns as they spawn, the first rank players on the server will be able to get Jetpacks and Heavy Machine Guns.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Often the best players ARE the people using welders and shotguns.
I agree that making it just like the alien system would be unoriginal. Can you think of a allowing the marines to get weapons they'd like without comm's supervision? Stashing weapons in armory would just encourage people to hump it even more (what's the difference between a gun lying on floor next to armory and stashed inside the armory?). And having the comm approve requests for weapons would basically be the same thing as right now, where he drops guns directly on top players.
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>Timer instead of Money:</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
I realize that in the end it might work pretty much the same as money, but at least it would look different and be more intuitive: Each marines has a timer that would go up, counting the time left before being eligible for a weapon. Different weapons will have different time values: Welder 1:00, SG 1:30, HMG 2:30 etc... Also, the limit of max/time would be set by the the most expensive choice (and/or might be improved by upgrades). Killing aliens, building, and welding would speed up the timer.
SCENARIO: Adf starts the game with timer at 0. As he builds, the timer increases at twice the rate. He kills a skulks and gets :10 added to it. After 1 minute of game time, the timer is at 1:30 so he goes to armory and picks a shotgun. Game continue, he racks up the kills and gets to 1:30 again, which is the limit. Not to waste the timer, he goes to base and gets a welder, decreasing the timer to :30. The comm researches HMGs and the timer limit is increased to 2:30. Adf dies and loses the SG and Welder. Now he has to decide: does he take a SG, so if he dies he could soon get another one, or does he wait for an HMG, but if he dies with it, he'll be left with an LMG for a while...
The idea is that you wouldn't be able to hoard "money". If you die, you might have enough to get a SG, but you'd have to do some killing if you want to get a good gun after you die again. The commander might also have upgrades to increase timers (if marines aren't dying) or to buy them time using his own res (to prepare for rushes).
What do you think of that?
Good point - guns can't be free! (therefore the timer idea won't work on its own)
So here's the dilemma: marines buy their gun using commander's res and the comm can't directly choose what they pick. It seems like the goal behind the NS2 Weapon System is to take the burden off the commander of handing out all weapons while allowing marine soldiers to have more variety and control. Hmmm...
and renaming "money" to "timer" does not make much sens since it would only confuse (new) players. call it money, private-res, credit, whatever; so ppl know what it might be used for
to expand my idea..:
<!--quoteo(post=1663866:date=Dec 13 2007, 04:44 PM:name=c0ke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(c0ke @ Dec 13 2007, 04:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1663866"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the marines could get <i>money</i>
depending on the marines score (like you have a higher rank -> get more) and marines RTs, the money is earned faster.
the marines can now spend their money to buy weapons from the weapon-cargo the commander fills up.
so the marines can use their money only to buy guns off the weaponpool the commander bought
the money system, based on the players <u>score</u>, is meant to get a fair ranking within the team - who's allowed to get more weapons etc
the money system, based on the <u>marines RTs</u>, is meant to balance the value of weaps the comm buys and the marines take. not that the comm buys lots of weapons but marines aint able to take 'em<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
example how <i>money</i> would be earned:
1st - entire team gets res via..: 10% of the res the commander gets (no matter if by RT or RFK) are uniformly(? everyone gets same) calculated to the marines as <i>money</i> - but not substracted from the comm
2nd - being rewarded: the player who has most teams score (lets say hes ranked as #1) receives the value of 2ppls weapons. (example: 10players in team. comm spends 10 weapons. you now get the money to buy 2 weaps). and the guy whos ranked at last of team would get no money at all via this way.
if you're merging these ways it would 1. guarantee everyone can buy weapons and 2. allow better players to get weapons more often. and this are 2 very important things imo
but in total, there are a lot of things you need to take a look for:
1. comm needs to keep control over type of weapons you can buy
2. comm needs to keep control on how many are available
3. comm should still be the one who uses the RTs (the actual res) to equip his team
4. the system has to allow EVERYONE to have access to weapons
4a. there should never be weapons generally available but noone can take em
5. players who are "better" should be able to get weapons first or more
6. comm should be able to equip the entire team if he wants to
so its kinda hard to get a fair system. that doesnt steal the power off the comm but also allows the players to purchase the weapons they want.. plus get a fair <i>money</i>-system thats not only based on kills and such
1. The relative power and effectiveness of the weapons.
2. How often you can switch weapons (Should you be able to get new weapons if you are dying constantly?)
3. Can you carry more than one weapon and switch between them? Ex: shotgun and LMG
4. Can the commander control which weapons can be bought?
5. Can the commander control the rate of new weapons?
For simplicity sake I think the individual marines should not have a money system. I think the commander should be able to allocate a percentage of his res towards weapons and the ability to restock weapons. Think of it like a grocery store:
-The commander can choose which upgrades he wants to put on the shelf/armory
-He then allocates a percentage of his available res (I want 20% of my res flow going towards weapons)
-Marines are only allowed to buy a weapon once every set amount of time (say 2 minutes)
-The comm has an indicator to see how much res is being spent on weapons (if he is always running out he can increase the percentage of res going towards guns or decrease it if marines are doing fine)
-The comm has the ability to take weapons off the armory (temporarily disable GLs)
This way comm still has control over what weapons and tech (can tech up early instead of guns or vice versa).
-Commander allocates a percentage of his resource flow for marine gear and these resources get divvied among the marines to buy stuff with.
-Marines might get some independent bonuses for doing well, but these should be pretty insignificant.
-Marines may not buy any gear the commander hasn't reserached yet.
-Commander can give a bonus sum of resources to a marine if he wants or even drop the gear old style.
-The "buy zone" is near armory.
Thus a good system i've seen in another hybrid style game (Allegiance: An RTS/Space flight Shooter) had the idea of having the players run things by the commander. So if i wanted a heavy inteceptor at a Cost of £300, i'd click Request funds and then the commander could press Insert (yes) or Delete (no) to give out those funds. To put it into NS, say i wanted a HMG that would cost me 30 Res, the commander could check it in his own time and make his decision. He wouldn't have to divert his attention spare a quick 5 seconds thinking. If we were going for a Hvy/HMG rush the commander could also put on an auto commander for that weapon/armor (and only that armor) so that he could make sure they were getting that and he wasn't spammed by 15 messages saying "The player would like to use funds" (or something along those lines).
But the real issue becomes people fighting over guns, and extreme humping.
i just hope it doesnt end up like the CS system.. NS is VERY teamplay based, you cant add such a system to NS - it'd need to be VERY diffrent.
i'd really like to know what part of the current equip-system they dislike. comm can prefer ppl? comm does not have enough time? players can not really chose? whats the problem.. i think the system isnt perfect but pretty fine.
we'll elsewhere quite possibly see a 2nd score-system the people use for purchasing weapons from <unknown> <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
ps: i like my idea a lot
<!--quoteo(post=1663982:date=Dec 14 2007, 12:16 PM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Dec 14 2007, 12:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1663982"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I know this is a bit pedantic, but could we call it influence or prestige or something other than money?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I totally agree with you, that this system is to distribute weapons has to do with prestige and not money. In the final game it would be very lame if marines have $$$ to spend on weapons! Still, money is a concept everyone understands, and is easy to talk about. So, for the sake of discussion, it would be helpful to agree on a term to describe marines' individual resources: and "money" fits the bill.
One thing that comes up time after time is that the comm knows better than marines what weapons they need
<!--quoteo(post=1664046:date=Dec 14 2007, 10:16 PM:name=c0ke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(c0ke @ Dec 14 2007, 10:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1664046"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->ps: i like my idea a lot<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I also tend to like my ideas! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> I agree with most of what you propose.
I agree that "better" players have to be rewarded, but i disagree in what way: I think they should get money when gaining points, instead of based on score board - it accomplishes the same goal but has 2 advantages:
1) encourages careful play: players who stay alive and still get kills will get the best equipment - exactly the people who should get it! Rewards based on score boards would benefit rushing forward to get most kills.
2) avoids problems with late-joiners
c0ke, could describe, in detail, what the process of buying a weapon might be?
Let's say a marine got some money and is thinking about buying a gun:
What did the comm research/buy to allow marine to get the weapon?
What choices does the marine have? Where/how does he buy the gun?
What happens the moment the marine buys the gun?
What does the commander do, if he wants to equip the whole team? What do the marines do?
Here's the simplest scenario: The comm had built an armory and researched shotgun and HMG. The comm puts 20 res into the armory to allow marines with enough money to buy weapons. A marine with $20 comes to the armory, opens a menu, and buys a welder ($5) and shotgun ($10). As result of this purchase the marine has $5 and armory has 5res. Now, the comm tells the team to rush a hive. So he beacons, uses an ability to give all marines $5 each and puts 50 res into the armory. Marines who had saved more than $10 now can choose to buy HMGs, while others get shotguns, and a few, who had $0 or got too late to the armory don't get anything.
There are many things that could be changed here: new armory and research could add some res to armory supply; money costs could be different from res costs; res costs could be reduced if marine has the money, but weapons could be bought by marines even without money, if the comm OK's it. Personally, i would like to take comm's res out of buying actual weapons (unless it's a rush).
<!--quoteo(post=1663985:date=Dec 14 2007, 12:35 PM:name=Dark Rage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dark Rage @ Dec 14 2007, 12:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1663985"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->-The commander can choose which upgrades he wants to put on the shelf/armory
-He then allocates a percentage of his available res (I want 20% of my res flow going towards weapons)
-Marines are only allowed to buy a weapon once every set amount of time (say 2 minutes)
-The comm has an indicator to see how much res is being spent on weapons (if he is always running out he can increase the percentage of res going towards guns or decrease it if marines are doing fine)
-The comm has the ability to take weapons off the armory (temporarily disable GLs)
This way comm still has control over what weapons and tech (can tech up early instead of guns or vice versa).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have one problem with your idea: it doesn't allow quick buying of weapons required for marine rushes. The idea is to remove the management of weapons from comm's responsibilities. Big part of this, is to remove comm's worry about res spent on weapons - instead he should only worry about techs/building/buffs and the occasional rushes.
<!--quoteo(post=1664034:date=Dec 14 2007, 08:05 PM:name=Demiguise)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Demiguise @ Dec 14 2007, 08:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1664034"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Tbh it should still be up to the commander to do some sort out giving out of weapons. I know he may have it tough already with the workload of watching out for aliens, watching his marines get butcherd by an insanly pissed off onos or perhaps just watching the beauty that is seige weapons firing in sync. But i'd like to know and control the weapons that are given out. I don't want a marine buying a shotgun when the main place that we are fighting is a massive hallway where a shotguns burst and close-range capabilities wouldn't be handy.
Thus a good system i've seen in another hybrid style game (Allegiance: An RTS/Space flight Shooter) had the idea of having the players run things by the commander. So if i wanted a heavy inteceptor at a Cost of £300, i'd click Request funds and then the commander could press Insert (yes) or Delete (no) to give out those funds. To put it into NS, say i wanted a HMG that would cost me 30 Res, the commander could check it in his own time and make his decision. He wouldn't have to divert his attention spare a quick 5 seconds thinking. If we were going for a Hvy/HMG rush the commander could also put on an auto commander for that weapon/armor (and only that armor) so that he could make sure they were getting that and he wasn't spammed by 15 messages saying "The player would like to use funds" (or something along those lines).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There seem to be a lot of people (StixNStonz, Kissamies, and others) who want the commander to have direct control over what weapons are given out. I agree, that generally the comm has a slightly better idea of what weapons are required, but: every marine has a head on his shoulders! I know that shotgun is best in close quarters and against hive, while HMG is best in open areas and against onos (Some new players might not know that, but these same players are just as likely to be comm and force marines to get wrong weapons!). I agree with you that the comm should have some influence on what weapons marines should get, but it could be accomplished without limiting marines: buy upgrades for a weapon, not research some weapons at all, buy/choose discounts for weapons (if HMG is useful, comm lowers its cost from $15 to $10 and now most marines will prefer HMG over SG)
I like the your comm-request idea, and I have an idea how it might be implemented. The comm could have a special marine screen, similar to the scoreboard, but with extra info including: 1) Current weapon 2) Amount of money 3) active requests. The commander could directly interact through this screen giving meds/ammo and respond with "yes/no" to requests.
That was a long post! Last thing: Most posts so far looked at Weapon distribution from Commander's perspective. I think it would also be helpful to look at the weapon system from Soldier's point of view as well! Keep this in mind and post what freedoms/choices you'd like as a soldier.
As a Soldier, i personally would want to:
- have access to different guns (and not be stuck with LMG 90% of the time)
- be able to <i>earn</i> a gun and not have to ask/beg the comm
- choose the weapon I think is most useful, <i>guided </i>by the comm (not forced upon me).
Well, not really in my case, except of course by not researching weapons or not building armory. I think there should be at least one piece of buyable equipment that doesn't need to be researched. Shotgun would be pretty logical.
Oh, one addition to my take on the idea: Marines can voluntarily "flush" their personal resource accounts back to the commander any time if they don't want to use it.
Let's say a marine got some money and is thinking about buying a gun:
<b>1. </b>What did the comm research/buy to allow marine to get the weapon?
<b>2. </b>What choices does the marine have? Where/how does he buy the gun?
<b>3. </b>What happens the moment the marine buys the gun?
<b>4. </b>What does the commander do, if he wants to equip the whole team? What do the marines do?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. armory unlocks welder+shotgun, upgrading the armory (advanced armory) could unlock hmg+gl
2. nearby armory sounds plausible <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
3. he loses "money" and receives the gun
4. he could unlock the "cargo" - (chaos mode) so people can buy everything thats in without spending their money. but this mode costs a few res per minute or adds another disadvantage over time. OR the comm can spend some res to give soldiers "money". aint rally sure bout that but there has to be such a possability
The only thing I can think of is that marines get their own RFK/building RTs and can spend it themselves. If the commander wants, he can stock up a couple of shotguns so that the next few marines would get them for free. That would be optimal I would think, although far from perfect.
2. nearby armory sounds plausible <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
3. he loses "money" and receives the gun
4. he could unlock the "cargo" - (chaos mode) so people can buy everything thats in without spending their money. but this mode costs a few res per minute or adds another disadvantage over time. OR the comm can spend some res to give soldiers "money". aint rally sure bout that but there has to be such a possability<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In 3. you don't mention any res lost from armory or comm when a gun is bought - i am completely for this. The comm shouldn't worry about marines using his res.
<!--quoteo(post=1664174:date=Dec 15 2007, 08:06 PM:name=Domining)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Domining @ Dec 15 2007, 08:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1664174"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The monetary system won't work because it still involves the commander. The commander has to 'put' res into the armory to let people buy weapons. That's completely redundant and is absolutely no better than the current system.
The only thing I can think of is that marines get their own RFK/building RTs and can spend it themselves. If the commander wants, he can stock up a couple of shotguns so that the next few marines would get them for free. That would be optimal I would think, although far from perfect.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Seems to me c0ke proposed exactly the same thing! What are other things to consider to make the system more "perfect"?
Thus a good system i've seen in another hybrid style game (Allegiance: An RTS/Space flight Shooter) had the idea of having the players run things by the commander. So if i wanted a heavy inteceptor at a Cost of £300, i'd click Request funds and then the commander could press Insert (yes) or Delete (no) to give out those funds. To put it into NS, say i wanted a HMG that would cost me 30 Res, the commander could check it in his own time and make his decision. He wouldn't have to divert his attention spare a quick 5 seconds thinking. If we were going for a Hvy/HMG rush the commander could also put on an auto commander for that weapon/armor (and only that armor) so that he could make sure they were getting that and he wasn't spammed by 15 messages saying "The player would like to use funds" (or something along those lines).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is the suggestion I have liked the best. Here are my reasons for agreeing with it:
1) Any system that rewards based on scoring points must have a point system that takes into account good team play, rather than the current (IMHO crappy) death match stats. If I choose to weld another player or building, if I help by covering a fellow marine by "cutting the pie" in Close Quarters Battle (CQB), if I dedicate time to triggering a event with the welder, or help a Commander build a structure - will I still get "personal resources" even though I don't score a direct kill for the team?
2) The idea of fulfilling requests that goes both ways between a team helps reduce micromanagement and does not force a Commander to go back to another screen where he isn't watching the action room by room and from an over all encompassing view, so that decisions on the tactical and strategic level are more easily focused on.
To add to the "request" formula, I would like that to extend to making templates, starting at a personal level, then going up to squad level, where so many numbers of templates make up a squad. The idea being here that a template is a Commander's request to the marines to follow certain guidelines, I am certain this would help the new players with choosing equipment as well. The squad level informs the marine choosing from the templates that the Commander requests a certain make up of the team going into the field, so that combined arms is observed and the team not totally weak in a particular area, like close combat or DI removal.
Here is the catch to my suggestion to the "request" system, these are only guide lines, a marine on the ground can still ignore the Commander's request to them for a certain make up to the team, based on their own experience for two reasons:
A) A marine probably knows what weapon they are best at.
B) A marine probably knows which weapon they have fun with.
Those two reasons are often the same. Interestingly enough, say the Comm requests this: Total Marines = 5; Heavy + HMG + Welder = 3; Heavy + Flame + Welder = 1; Heavy + Shot + Welder = 1. If The marines follow the squad and personal templates, then they will have a cool squad ... but the marines checking in at the Armory more than one knows the do well with shot so they go that way, it doesn't wreck the heavy train, they still know what the Commander was wanting from them. Perhaps more than one likes to burn the DI, that should still not wreck the Commander's templates. Heck, they could ignore it all together, but then they deserve what happens when you ignore a Commander that wishes you well.
Now, the Marine should have a clear idea what the Commander needs to fill in the roles for the team, and a suggested gear for the new players or the ones just wanting to gear up faster, and the Marine still makes the final call, sends off the request, and the Commander approves the resources.
Here is the thing, say you want to get around the Commander's approval, yes? It seems to be what some want, well, in that case I would think that a Commander could allocate a pool of res to the marines, and if the Devs are willing to put in the time for good team play stats, then have the marines earn it too.
Someone wanted to know one of the reasons for the "buying" of gear, rather than the way we have in NS1? For myself, when I would Command, and I dropped gear for my team, especially near the end of the game, a few things happened:
- Unless the base was being over run by Kharaa, I was missing out on the action. I could end up spending all my time just dropping gear ... kinda boring, I wanted to see the hive exploding.
- While I was setting up that seige, droping cat packs, and dropping meds, the gear was all gone from base. "Hey noob comm, shot gun pls!" Ugh.
- I had limited res, but I knew so and so was just an awesome shot gunner, so I drop a shot gun ... only to watch it get picked up by the person beside them, who happened to think that rambo and die would be fun. There goes that strategic play *sniff*
- Taking the time to get into a heated argument with my players because I was trying to save res for a strategy, like a heavy train, but they wanted their goods now, instead of as a team, was so very sad. Often I would hand the stuff out early just not to hear the whining anymore.
There is all kinds of grief to be had with the old system, I just hope there is some path that allows a good mix of over all strategy by the commander vs tactical decisions by the marine. I think something that works with requests right into the system and helps dispense a plan with a few clicks of the mouse suites this well. Plus, I think the right blend allows for more marine equipment mixes to be a possibility, with the addition of new weapons and armor. This idea is basicly streamlining what a good commander in NS1 already does, so that both marines and Commander can get back to the action and having fun. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
- As marine soldier, how much control do you want to have in choosing your weapon/equipment?
- How could this system make the game more enjoyable for marines even under a bad comm?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've added this to the original post, because all of the discussion so far has been from Commander's point of view. Let's also consider what you'd want to be able to do as marine soldier or when playing under a "so-so" comm.
The score point system reflects killing-ability and not team-play. Rambos might get slightly higher killing score than good team-players, but they are also are much more likely to die and lose their weapon. Best NS1 players who get a SG, keep it for a very long time by moving in groups with other marines. Similarly, under this system people with most money would be the ones who get kills AND stay alive. You're right, this system would NOT encourage following commander's orders - but the comm could use team res to buy them a weapon as reward for helping the team reach an objective. (This is a weak argument, but: players who take their time to weld team-mates, doors, and build, don't have much time to shoot and so would not need any expensive equipment save for welder.) Finally, several suggested for the score point system to be only a part of the money income for marines - this would allow everyone a chance to get a gun, though players who are particularly good at killing aliens would get better guns.
Oh, and adjusting the score system to add points for building and welding would also be great: 1 point for 30 seconds of welding/building - excludes welding air :')
<!--quoteo(post=1664306:date=Dec 16 2007, 07:05 PM:name=CanadianWolverine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CanadianWolverine @ Dec 16 2007, 07:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1664306"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2) The idea of fulfilling requests that goes both ways between a team helps reduce micromanagement and does not force a Commander to go back to another screen where he isn't watching the action room by room and from an over all encompassing view, so that decisions on the tactical and strategic level are more easily focused on.
To add to the "request" formula, I would like that to extend to making templates, starting at a personal level, then going up to squad level, where so many numbers of templates make up a squad. The idea being here that a template is a Commander's request to the marines to follow certain guidelines, I am certain this would help the new players with choosing equipment as well. The squad level informs the marine choosing from the templates that the Commander requests a certain make up of the team going into the field, so that combined arms is observed and the team not totally weak in a particular area, like close combat or DI removal.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Correct me if i'm wrong: The root of your idea is to <i>allow the commander to tell his team what weapon load-out is best at the moment</i>. I agree that this is a very important part of commander's job, but i think this can be achieved in multiple ways. Your idea is a solution, but it requires several new components: 1) squads, 2) marine templates, and 3) request forms.
Two simple ideas:
<b>Weapon discounts: allow the commander to choose a discount on one weapon-type. If there are not enough HMGs, the comm makes it cheaper and marines are now much more likely to buy it. It does have a major flaw: it encourages similar load-out. How it might work: this cost-reduction ability costs res. Then, the commander chooses a weapon to be discounted. After a 2 minute timer, the commander can choose to change the discount to another weapon
Encouragement for Diverse Weapon: make weapon's cost go up, the more of its type are out. How it might work: 1st and 2nd SG cost 10, but 3rd is 11, and when 3 shotguns are on a team, the 4th is 12 and so on. Combine this and commander's discounts and you get both advantages.</b>
Your idea is superior to my suggestions, because it lets every marine know EXACTLY what he should get and what his role is. (the disadvantage is that it is more difficult to implement and perfect)