Weapon damage and upgrades...
sgt.waffles
Join Date: 2007-09-22 Member: 62406Banned
Join Date: 2007-09-22 Member: 62406Banned
Well, i love NS, i think it's a great game, i love the whole RTS mixed with FPS feel to it, i love the creep factor how your going through the ship and hearing noises in the background that could be an alien coming at you or just your imagination. Well, witht aht aside, there's one thing i didn't like in it, that i hope will be fixed in NS2 which is, well the normal MG was kind of a pathetic gun, i mean you needed to empty nearly half a clip in to a Skulk to kill it. The upgrades helped a little but when you run into a larger beast like the Fade or the Onos your left in complete distress since it's like a peashooter compared to one of those monstous aliens, i know that there are other guns but to me it seems kind of one sided... It takes about 20, to 25 rounds to kill one skulk when you start, and that's if your a good shot too, but than the aliens can kill you in one to two hits. I mean to me i think that they have the upper advantage with it, and the wall climbing ability doesn't help either, basicaly when they pop out of their hiding spot and hit you once, it's all over considering that the only chance you'll have is if you've got 1 or 2 people with you, or he messes up and misses and you get a clear shot.
I just think it would be better if they fixed this somehow in NS2, whether it be giving the gun more ammo, making it slightly stronger, giving you more armor to start, or even making the aliens attacks slightly weaker, i just think it should be evened out a little better with the combat.
I just think it would be better if they fixed this somehow in NS2, whether it be giving the gun more ammo, making it slightly stronger, giving you more armor to start, or even making the aliens attacks slightly weaker, i just think it should be evened out a little better with the combat.
Comments
I just think it would be better if they fixed this somehow in NS2, whether it be giving the gun more ammo, making it slightly stronger, giving you more armor to start, or even making the aliens attacks slightly weaker, i just think it should be evened out a little better with the combat.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Greets.
NS Developpers have tried various mix of armor and weapon strenght since 1.04, and I think that the way it is now is well balanced. Sure, a skulk can kill you in 2 bites when you don't have any updates, but on the other hand, you can shoot them from afar if you see them. You talk about a fade and how it's uneven when you only have a LMG... sure, but it's just as uneven when you're a skulk and you get killed by a HMG or nade launcher... you don't stand much chance versus either one of them as a skulk... I think the balance is pretty good as it is, and hope that if they do make a change in the way this is handled, they put much thoughts into it to make sure that the game stays balanced.
Greets.
NS Developpers have tried various mix of armor and weapon strenght since 1.04, and I think that the way it is now is well balanced. Sure, a skulk can kill you in 2 bites when you don't have any updates, but on the other hand, you can shoot them from afar if you see them. You talk about a fade and how it's uneven when you only have a LMG... sure, but it's just as uneven when you're a skulk and you get killed by a HMG or nade launcher... you don't stand much chance versus either one of them as a skulk... I think the balance is pretty good as it is, and hope that if they do make a change in the way this is handled, they put much thoughts into it to make sure that the game stays balanced.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, but very rarely do you see skulks in the open since your almost always on a ship and there's always crevices and airvents which they can attack from... The main thing that bother me is that the upgrades don't have a very strong affect and even when your upgraded to full strength and your armed with an LMG the gun still seems to do very little to a fade, it takes atleast 2 and maybe an extra half a clip to kill it, and you probably wont even half enough time to reload on your second clip. I think they should atleast lower some of the other creatures healths, not drasticaly but enough to atleast let your LMG have an effect on what your trying to kill... The way combat is in this mod is that it makes it seem like it has to be mandatory for you to upgrade your arsenal to something like a GL or an HMG... don't get me wrong i like the game and everything but i just find it annoying when im constantly running out of ammo always heading back to get more or dieing because i was cought off gaurd because of how much it takes to kill something, even with an HMG, i just don't like the feeling that it seems like i'm being forced to use a different gun because of how weak it is, unlike aliens who start out with extremely powerful attacks right at start when the marines have to work for there benefits.
The field of view as a skulk is horrible. I have to look at the marines through my teeth... So maybe 30% of the time I get a first bite, but after that I lose them. What I mean is I have no idea where they are! My field of view is so narrow that half the time they are standing bahind me reloading and I am lokoing around just tryin to find them again. I dont know if I ever get more then one kill per game as a skulk, so I always go gorge.
The learning curve may be the problem here, I don't know. I would rather the LMG had 25 rounds instead and the damage was 2X, I do get tired of spamming an area over the corse of what seems like forever, just to get a skulk kill. This would also help with the bunny hopping done by everyone, as it would put more emphesis on the attack-kill, vs. the jump around for 5 minutes while running at marines to get close enough to bite their ankles.
The field of view as a skulk is horrible. I have to look at the marines through my teeth... So maybe 30% of the time I get a first bite, but after that I lose them. What I mean is I have no idea where they are! My field of view is so narrow that half the time they are standing bahind me reloading and I am lokoing around just tryin to find them again. I dont know if I ever get more then one kill per game as a skulk, so I always go gorge.
The learning curve may be the problem here, I don't know. I would rather the LMG had 25 rounds instead and the damage was 2X, I do get tired of spamming an area over the corse of what seems like forever, just to get a skulk kill. This would also help with the bunny hopping done by everyone, as it would put more emphesis on the attack-kill, vs. the jump around for 5 minutes while running at marines to get close enough to bite their ankles.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well i wouldn't really want less ammo and have it stronger but more along the lines of maybe increasing the damage to 13 or 14 damage per bullet.
Also, marines are supposed to be team oriented. They ARE supposed to travel in groups of at least 2-3 because marines are made to have certain vulnerabilities that don't allow them to become solo killing machines. If that was the case NS would be a long dead mod. Marines have to reload, they have to perform some actions at time that take their gun away, they might get caught unaware, they might have to fight more then one alien at a time, and you might just plain old miss. That's what teammates are for. You can't be ready for every single possible thing, that would make marines way to powerful. Saying that you think you should be able to take down a fade or onos with the default gun that cost you no resources at all compared to the 50 or 75 resources they had to spend to become that lifeform is really unbalanced thinking. The weapon upgrades are made to be augments to give marines an advantage, not to change the way that the guns can be used.
I do, however wish the skulks had a wider field of view. I have been playing long enough to overcome this to a degree, but a LARGE amount of marine players are smart enough to do the bunny hop away when they get hit. I think if the marine gets into melee range with an alien he shouldn't be able to hop out of range of another bite. They should be able to move and fight, but currently a well performed bunny hop when your hit can actually move you away from the skulk faster then a non-celerity one can move forward. Yes, it's only like a five foot move, but against a skilled player that means your dead.
In the end I think a lot of your issues with the marines vs skulk situation just requires you to practice more. LMG's are very capable of taking down skulks quickly and are not meant to take down higher life unless there are many marines focus firing on them. As for higher life vs basic marines, the basic marine should lose, it cost no resources to create that marine, and to let it destroy a high res life form without special circumstances is VERY imbalanced. Same thing the other way around, if a skulk takes down a heavy with an HMG, their should be some kind of factor for why, unless that marine is very, very, very, very, very bad.
Simply boosting lmg with the gameplay mechanics we know would hurt the balance big time. Hopefully the devs can come up with some new stuff to make the game's learning curve optimal while still keeping it as rewarding and interesting as it is right now.
Simply boosting lmg with the gameplay mechanics we know would hurt the balance big time. Hopefully the devs can come up with some new stuff to make the game's learning curve optimal while still keeping it as rewarding and interesting as it is right now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well it's not really a matter of raising the LMG damage but to make it easier using the LMG making it so it doesn't feel like im being forced to use a different weapon because of how weak it is, yes it does have a high rate of fire, and the guns don't have recoil but it jsut takes too much time to kill and bullets to drop a fade or skulk, for me it took nearly a clip and a half of a level 2 upgraded HMG to drop one fade, and the 3rd upgrade maybe brings the ammo you waste on the LMG down to maybe 90, since you also miss alot because of how the large the spray is for the gun your more than likely to lose even more. I remember on a NS map (forget the name of it) there were about 2 or 3 fades leaping around everywhere(i couldn't tell how many there were cause i died almost every 20-30 seconds) at the marine base and it took us almost 20 minutes to kill them with LMG's GL's Shotguns, and LMG's. I mean there is something slightly wrong with the marines side of the combat that i just dont like about but i like playing as them because i like having guns preferrably than having teeth.
And yes i do play aliens sometimes and i get away with hiding in spots on the cielings and in airvents almost 85% of the time, unless they have motion tracking or smoething, im more of a stalker when it comes to playing as alien and i attack when there most vulnerable than just running straight at them bunny hopping. And that's just my point, the marines are never ready for ambushes because of how week there things are, i've seen 3 heavies armed with HMg's go down by one skulk and one fade... THAT'S embarrasing... So, im not sure what should be fixed with the combat for the marines but something to make there weapons more affective.
***
At issue here I see a lack of diversity in No Cost Weapons, not feeling right to this player's play style.
I see the solution to this being that you get to choose your basic load out before you spawn. I'm not suggesting greater power or rate of fire or whatever, I am suggesting that perhaps some players would rather spawn with dual pistols but no LMG or an LMG with with a extended clip but no pistol or swap out your knife for something or ... I hope you get the point.
Allow for some mixing and matching of styles in the No Cost weapons before you spawn could improve the experience for some players.
I would hope this way you could choose where to be weak and where to be strong to suit the style and skill set you possess as a player.
Also, no weapon that requires resources would be available before spawning - unless perhaps there was an upgrade to the armory and the Commander could set a permission to spend so much resources to improve a players inventory before spawn.
***
Next issue brought up, the view of a skulk (and many other Kharaa as well). What do the Kharaa mainly do melee, set up ambushes, hit & run, right? This means needing to blend into the enviroment's geography and know when you bites are landing a hit because you are the right distance away.
The solution I see to making the Kharaa more accessible in their intended strengths would be a over the shoulder 3rd person view. This would still seem a very alien experience, especially compared to the marine's 1st person view. It would allow a player to better know if their model is hidden behind objects or in the shadows, and give better depth perception in how your Kharaa is positioned in relation to your target.
***
At issue here I see a lack of diversity in No Cost Weapons, not feeling right to this player's play style.
I see the solution to this being that you get to choose your basic load out before you spawn. I'm not suggesting greater power or rate of fire or whatever, I am suggesting that perhaps some players would rather spawn with dual pistols but no LMG or an LMG with with a extended clip but no pistol or swap out your knife for something or ... I hope you get the point.
Allow for some mixing and matching of styles in the No Cost weapons before you spawn could improve the experience for some players.
I would hope this way you could choose where to be weak and where to be strong to suit the style and skill set you possess as a player.
Also, no weapon that requires resources would be available before spawning - unless perhaps there was an upgrade to the armory and the Commander could set a permission to spend so much resources to improve a players inventory before spawn.
***
Next issue brought up, the view of a skulk (and many other Kharaa as well). What do the Kharaa mainly do melee, set up ambushes, hit & run, right? This means needing to blend into the enviroment's geography and know when you bites are landing a hit because you are the right distance away.
The solution I see to making the Kharaa more accessible in their intended strengths would be a over the shoulder 3rd person view. This would still seem a very alien experience, especially compared to the marine's 1st person view. It would allow a player to better know if their model is hidden behind objects or in the shadows, and give better depth perception in how your Kharaa is positioned in relation to your target.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No cost weapons would kind of eliminate the reason for collecting resources and it would make it alot harder on the Kharaa.
<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" />
Did you even read my post?
Seriously, when you spawn as a Marine at the start of a match or from an Infantry Portal, how much does your LMG or Pistol or Knife or the ammo cost?
So if that is the case, what difference does it make if the Marine spawns with only Pistols or LMGs or Knives? They all cost the same, nothing, and so why not mix and match them so a player can get more into NS2?
Did you even read my post?
Seriously, when you spawn as a Marine at the start of a match or from an Infantry Portal, how much does your LMG or Pistol or Knife or the ammo cost?
So if that is the case, what difference does it make if the Marine spawns with only Pistols or LMGs or Knives? They all cost the same, nothing, and so why not mix and match them so a player can get more into NS2?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Okay, now your jsut confusing me. Are you implying that the LMG, knife, and pistol cost resources?! Cause they don't...
<!--quoteo(post=1651450:date=Sep 23 2007, 01:50 PM:name=CanadianWolverine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CanadianWolverine @ Sep 23 2007, 01:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1651450"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>They all cost the same, nothing</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now I am certain you are just being a troll because you repeat what I have just pointed out and I have no idea how more clear I could be about my idea.
I'm just going to hope some more discerning minds on good game play and balance see my suggestion to alleviate the original posters concerns.
...
It just dawned on me, you are the original poster. I think I had better just wash my hands of trying to help this one with some constructive thoughts on possible avenues of gameplay that don't upset the balance.
I'm just going to hope some more discerning minds on good game play and balance see my suggestion to alleviate the original posters concerns.
...
It just dawned on me, you are the original poster. I think I had better just wash my hands of trying to help this one with some constructive thoughts on possible avenues of gameplay that don't upset the balance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i got the part with the customization and selection but you lost me at the part where you started talking about cost.
And i'm not a troll....
But yes, i suggest you do, do that.
Anyway, I think the 3rd person view would be way too much of an advantage...aliens could easily see around a corner without poking out or giving away their position, it would eliminate sneaking up on an alien for the oh so rewarding ninja kill. But I wouldn't mind a better field of view for the skulk, not one bit.
Anyway, I think the 3rd person view would be way too much of an advantage...aliens could easily see around a corner without poking out or giving away their position, it would eliminate sneaking up on an alien for the oh so rewarding ninja kill. But I wouldn't mind a better field of view for the skulk, not one bit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
2 knives? why would you need 2 knives?
An Onos is huge so do the math on that and just hope for an upgraded HMG and some teamwork. That is the main idea behind the marine playstlye. If you are looking to take on the whole alien team by your lonesome as a ninja or a rambo then I will happily drop you an HMG and a jetpack and say good luck.
For skulks I agree the field of view is rather limited making it very hard to see or track anything that is not directly in front of you. I think that the view from the mouth is funny but tough so perhapes a view from where the eyes would be or over the shoulder would help. I don't think 3rd person would be fair but a way to track better would probably help. In the end it's the learning curve that gets most people. It's tough but it can be overcome.
I don't personally see a lot of tweaking needed right now to damage or armor. I think that given the setup things are pretty balanced. In the end it really is down to skill and especially team work over anything else. I do like the idea of being able to alter your load out as a Marine and I think it has potential. That however assumes that you would be able to add or modify much as a Marine. In most cases there's a standard load out for a reason so it's working around the plausability of that.
You can't kill a fade with 1 lmg (unless the fade lets you) thats the whole point of the game. If your team can't afford shotguns or have somekind of upgrade then your team has been doing something wrong. Also why would you be walking around on your own? marines heavily rely on their team mates, and a few marines can kill a fade if they can stop from getting away and picking you off one at a time.
The game is more or less perfectly balanced - the aliens are more powerful but only if they reach the end of their tech tree - but i would even say that marines have the upper hand in the first 5 minutes of the game - which is usually the deciding part of the round anyways.
An Onos is huge so do the math on that and just hope for an upgraded HMG and some teamwork. That is the main idea behind the marine playstlye. If you are looking to take on the whole alien team by your lonesome as a ninja or a rambo then I will happily drop you an HMG and a jetpack and say good luck.
For skulks I agree the field of view is rather limited making it very hard to see or track anything that is not directly in front of you. I think that the view from the mouth is funny but tough so perhapes a view from where the eyes would be or over the shoulder would help. I don't think 3rd person would be fair but a way to track better would probably help. In the end it's the learning curve that gets most people. It's tough but it can be overcome.
I don't personally see a lot of tweaking needed right now to damage or armor. I think that given the setup things are pretty balanced. In the end it really is down to skill and especially team work over anything else. I do like the idea of being able to alter your load out as a Marine and I think it has potential. That however assumes that you would be able to add or modify much as a Marine. In most cases there's a standard load out for a reason so it's working around the plausability of that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sure i understand that Onos' are huge and can take down a large numebr of people but fade's do tons of damage, have incredible attacks, and also have tons of health, and they don't take nearly as long as if you were upgrading to an Ono's, i mean fade's should atleasst have a little less health.
An HMG isn't all that accurate. I mean the main gun you wanna go for is the shotgun because of how it can deliver up to 320 damge and up in a single blast, now i've been able to blast away maybe 2 fades with a shotgun between a time period of atleast 45 seconds. I mean i think the shotgun shouldn't really be weakened but it seems like it's the only affective gun, the GLer has 4 rounds and does maybe 100 more damage than the shotgun but you miss alot with it because there's a small delay when firing it and it bounces. Now a days we have Gler's that shoot about 5 or 6 as rounds. And it's supposed to be the future so, i mean wouldn't they have increased the amount of rounds it can hold and not decrease? I just think that something should be done with the marines weapons, so it's more fair, i mean once everyone starts onos and fade rushing the games basicaly over unless you control more than half the map. Hell, i've seen the aliens actualy take back the map a few times when the marines controlled it!
One shotgun shoots 10 pellets that each do 17 damage, unupgraded. A fully upgraded shotgun does 221 damage, NOT 320. One shotgun is usually enough to deter a fade from making a frontal, solo attack and is definitely a dire threat to any lerk that gets too close. All this for 10 res. The problem isn't the weapons and lifeforms are unbalanced, it's that your average marine has terrible aim and doesn't know how to work in a group.
You can't kill a fade with 1 lmg (unless the fade lets you) thats the whole point of the game. If your team can't afford shotguns or have somekind of upgrade then your team has been doing something wrong. Also why would you be walking around on your own? marines heavily rely on their team mates, and a few marines can kill a fade if they can stop from getting away and picking you off one at a time.
The game is more or less perfectly balanced - the aliens are more powerful but only if they reach the end of their tech tree - but i would even say that marines have the upper hand in the first 5 minutes of the game - which is usually the deciding part of the round anyways.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, i guess it's because i go out on my own alot and stray away from my team... i dont really like working in a group. Or they're too close to kill, i can usualy take out a skulk within 6 to 8 feet, any closer and im done for...
And my connection speed is over 2 mills....
it takes 10 bullets to kill a one hive non-cara skulk and two bites plus a parasite to kill an armor 0 marine. i don't know who you've been playing with, but most "good shots" can vaporize a skulk in < 15 bullets.
<!--quoteo(post=1651589:date=Sep 23 2007, 11:56 PM:name=schkorpio)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(schkorpio @ Sep 23 2007, 11:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1651589"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You can't kill a fade with 1 lmg (unless the fade lets you) thats the whole point of the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
not only is it possible but it's pretty easy for good players to do, especially with weapons 3. i'm talking from a pub standpoint of course.
as most players who play on the <BAD> server can attest to, the lmg is pretty deadly in the right hands, even against lerks and fades.
<!--quoteo(post=1651725:date=Sep 24 2007, 02:36 PM:name=Underwhelmed)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Underwhelmed @ Sep 24 2007, 02:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1651725"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem isn't the weapons and lifeforms are unbalanced, it's that your average marine has terrible aim and doesn't know how to work in a group.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
underwhelmed pretty much got it right here. buff marines and you'll be seeing pro marines 30 second spawn camping much more often.
One shotgun shoots 10 pellets that each do 17 damage, unupgraded. A fully upgraded shotgun does 221 damage, NOT 320. One shotgun is usually enough to deter a fade from making a frontal, solo attack and is definitely a dire threat to any lerk that gets too close. All this for 10 res. The problem isn't the weapons and lifeforms are unbalanced, it's that your average marine has terrible aim and doesn't know how to work in a group.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've played the game, i've seen it do 320 damage, there's those hit things on this one server and in one blast IT SHOWED ME that i did 320.... i can read ya know...
so i take it you've been playing on /xmenu level 50 combat 5 second spawn invul extended timelimit 30 slot selfweld lerklift nightvision rollthedice cchealth hivehealth latejoinxp servers. this pretty much nullifies any semblance of an argument you've put forth.
It's not an argument unless your trying to make it one. And ummm no, the only thing they had on it was a damage signifier from what i knew about the server seeing as it played like normal, and BTW it's called "INTERVAL", not sure if you meant to spell it like that but just making sure.
How would that raise the amount of damage you do?
In some cases they come in and kill one person and repeat until most are dead or guns lost and then attack all out. You have to work as a group, you need people wielding, problem one, you need people all looking to shoot the fade when it comes around the corner next AND you need a couple good jetpackers to head them off and kill them once they flee. Now all this can be done and done on foot, it's not to hard. It just requires teamwork which is the name of the game for Marines. Get your upgrades, work together, move as a group, learn to cut off the enemy or surrond them and die for the team if it means killing them. Now if you prefer to run alone then don't be surprised when a fade charges and kills you, shotgun or no shotgun.