Best Of
Re: X-Post from Modding: Imminent Update to Break Certain Mods
What century are you living in? Companies are not mothers....I heard this story the other day that I think fits here well. It goes like this:
There once was a mother and her child. Mom loves child, child loves mom. Child wanted a new green toy. Child wont shut up about it. Mother, after some time, buys child BLUE version of same green toy. CHILD FLIPS OUT! "I WANTED THE GREEN ONE!" Child does not enjoy blue toy at all, despite being quite the same as the green one, in fact, the blue one is better. Child complains INCESSANTLY. Sadly, the mother grows weary and and eventually drowns her child.
Now, aren't you all glad UWE isn't our mother? We should be grateful that any work at all is being put into it. All this "OMFG STILL NO FACKING HOTPATCH?!" is really BS. Say mineshaft was fixed and just quickly released... Are you certain that if that was the ONLY thing they tried to fix, another handful of bugs wouldn't have come up? Another hot fix for that one? And the one after that?
I think most of you complaining are assuming that you know quite a bit more than you do. And in the end, we've still got a very nice, shiny toy, that I personally have still played pretty much everyday since we lost mineshaft anyways.
Stop biting the hand that feeds, nobody likes little shit dogs like that.
They are entities that provide goods and services to paying customers. Those customers have every right to expect a fully functioning product. So while you won't hear me whining every day on the forums about bugs that are beyond UWE's ability to fix, you also won't hear me talking down to other people demanding they get a quality product.
In all seriousness and objectivity, the development of NS2 over the years makes a great case study illustrating many many things not to do when developing a game. Why they currently can't fix their own game is due to a road of cascading bad decisions. Understandable, but not acceptable.
Re: X-Post from Modding: Imminent Update to Break Certain Mods
To my knowledge, I am one of the only people who has mineshaft as their favorite map, so are people just latching on to things to be angry about? History shows this community has never really cared for mineshaft.
My favorite too, we are not alone! When i cry 'mieeenshaftplz!' during mapvote i get abuse and hated.
But i take it like a man and keep crying. Miiiiiieeeenshaffftt!
Miieeeeeenshaffffft!
Soon we can cuddle those pretty walls again.
Re: What happened to weldable, breakable door?
Id rather weld vents to prevent aliens utterly annoying marines... example skylights/overlook on Veil...
Re: Map-Specific Strategies, care to share?
john of arc.
rip man, rip.
rip man, rip.
Re: X-Post from Modding: Imminent Update to Break Certain Mods
Most of you guys know I know the ins and outs of Playtesting and how patches are made and delivered, being PT Lead of NS2 for years and through NS2's release. Hugh's explanation as to why we can't just 'hotfix' things is correct - I think he just put it in a way which was a bit more confusing to some.
Just to clarify, we are double, and triple checking Mineshaft (and all maps). We have been holding DOUBLE playtests for the last few weeks - almost like we were before NS2 got released. There are reasons for this, which hopefully you will all get to see VERY soon on May 1st. I can't promise 265 will be bug-free, (who can right?) but as of right now it is looking very solid.
Just to clarify, we are double, and triple checking Mineshaft (and all maps). We have been holding DOUBLE playtests for the last few weeks - almost like we were before NS2 got released. There are reasons for this, which hopefully you will all get to see VERY soon on May 1st. I can't promise 265 will be bug-free, (who can right?) but as of right now it is looking very solid.
Re: 27 Days Later
I want to be as constructive in my criticism as I can. Apologies if offense is taken.
If you're seriously pondering if an adjustment needs to be made in how UWE interfaces with its community, your problems are larger than you think.
My first recommendation is to ask yourselves what you expect to gain from the historic method of trickling out information to generate hype and then pulling the string for a big "kaboom" unveiling. If your ultimate goal is simply to generate hype, ask yourselves what that hype actually provides. Do you intend to draw in new players with it? Are you trying to keep the existing community excited? From where I sit, neither of those things are happening.
Next, and I think this probably pertains more to SN, decide if you have a clear roadmap for where you want the game to go. Assuming you have one, release it to the public. It doesn't have to be perfectly detailed and it doesn't need a timeline. A visual roadmap will reassure the community that you have a plan and that you aren't just hanging out pondering the next hipster fad.
Having a public roadmap will also keep the community focused. When you want to ask the community for input on a given scenario you can expect answers that are more valuable because they'll have a better understanding of the context and impact. Of course, it doesn't mean the roadmap can't change, but you'd need to make those changes public as well.
In the same spirit, you need to stop pretending to have open development and actually be open about it. What's been going on instead is a hierarchy has been forming: you have UWE staff developers, then there's a small circle of community members who are "in the know", and then you have the masses. This system is, unintentionally I'm sure, creating an adverse relationship. Again, whatever benefits you think you're getting from the Supar Secrat updates are being squashed by the growing disdain.
You guys have some seriously good product here. You don't need gimmicks to get people excited. Just let everybody know what's going on, what you expect to be doing in the future, and then let the actual content provide the good time feelings throughout the community.
Sorry this is a bit run-on but I've been stepping back quite a bit and all I see is a downward spiral. It's depressing.
If you're seriously pondering if an adjustment needs to be made in how UWE interfaces with its community, your problems are larger than you think.
My first recommendation is to ask yourselves what you expect to gain from the historic method of trickling out information to generate hype and then pulling the string for a big "kaboom" unveiling. If your ultimate goal is simply to generate hype, ask yourselves what that hype actually provides. Do you intend to draw in new players with it? Are you trying to keep the existing community excited? From where I sit, neither of those things are happening.
Next, and I think this probably pertains more to SN, decide if you have a clear roadmap for where you want the game to go. Assuming you have one, release it to the public. It doesn't have to be perfectly detailed and it doesn't need a timeline. A visual roadmap will reassure the community that you have a plan and that you aren't just hanging out pondering the next hipster fad.
Having a public roadmap will also keep the community focused. When you want to ask the community for input on a given scenario you can expect answers that are more valuable because they'll have a better understanding of the context and impact. Of course, it doesn't mean the roadmap can't change, but you'd need to make those changes public as well.
In the same spirit, you need to stop pretending to have open development and actually be open about it. What's been going on instead is a hierarchy has been forming: you have UWE staff developers, then there's a small circle of community members who are "in the know", and then you have the masses. This system is, unintentionally I'm sure, creating an adverse relationship. Again, whatever benefits you think you're getting from the Supar Secrat updates are being squashed by the growing disdain.
You guys have some seriously good product here. You don't need gimmicks to get people excited. Just let everybody know what's going on, what you expect to be doing in the future, and then let the actual content provide the good time feelings throughout the community.
Sorry this is a bit run-on but I've been stepping back quite a bit and all I see is a downward spiral. It's depressing.
Re: X-Post from Modding: Imminent Update to Break Certain Mods
@Hugh - I think a lot of recent criticism shown towards UWE has been because of a lack of information. The communication you have provided here is great, and for the NS community in particular, it harks back to the open relationship we have always had throughout the history of NS.
While we know things get busy, and regular consistent communication is a pipedream, the NS community has felt like it isn't receiving any attention. We know you are working to develop the new baby, but the older sibling is getting a little jealous that it gets less attention!
The updates have continued to flow, but the lack of communication with devs has caused the ill feeling to grow. If there was irregular communication from the devs about NS2, whether it be specifically related to the product or more personal inside the studio information, it will alleviate some of the feelings of being ignored, even if there isn't a change to way the updates are done. The feeling of having communication is important, the communications themselves less so.
We'd love to see more informal inside the office type stuff. the work you are doing promoting Subnautica shows you have really learned from your NS2 experiences, just don't forget to show the NS community some love too
While we know things get busy, and regular consistent communication is a pipedream, the NS community has felt like it isn't receiving any attention. We know you are working to develop the new baby, but the older sibling is getting a little jealous that it gets less attention!
The updates have continued to flow, but the lack of communication with devs has caused the ill feeling to grow. If there was irregular communication from the devs about NS2, whether it be specifically related to the product or more personal inside the studio information, it will alleviate some of the feelings of being ignored, even if there isn't a change to way the updates are done. The feeling of having communication is important, the communications themselves less so.
We'd love to see more informal inside the office type stuff. the work you are doing promoting Subnautica shows you have really learned from your NS2 experiences, just don't forget to show the NS community some love too
Re: X-Post from Modding: Imminent Update to Break Certain Mods
Except you didn't explain anything,
There's not much I can do with this post, @philogl. I gave a specific, factual explanation of the logic behind Unknown Worlds never releasing hot-fixes. Telling me that I am speaking gobbledygook is akin to telling me that you don't like my accent, and refuse to listen to me because of it. If you do not like the way I phrase things, I am sorry for that, I respect that, and I wish I could phrase things in a way that would be acceptable to everyone, everywhere. But you cannot simply wish away the meaning in my phrasing because you don't like it.
I do appreciate later posters, @obraxis, @ricez taking the time to expand upon what I said and put it in different terms. Not everyone speaks the same language, even if that language is English!
[AwE]Sentinel wrote: »I have a few questions about NS2's development
I appreciate you taking the time to ask me questions, @[AWE]Sentinel. I'll do my best to answer every one!
[AwE]Sentinel wrote: »-What exactly does development mean and when will it be finished?
Development means the ongoing creation of new value in Natural Selection 2 - Whether through bug fixes, new features, balance changes, or anything else that could improve the experience of any player or prospective player.
Unknown Worlds presently has no date set to 'finish' Natural Selection 2 development. Our active plan is to continue Natural Selection 2 development ad infinitum. This plan is very ambitious and dependent on a multitude of factors.
[AwE]Sentinel wrote: »As you say, ns2 is a mature game, can we expect the game to finalize in a state where UWE fixes all bugs and releases something like an enhanced version/gold version of the game or will the game not recive any updates after a certain point and we will be stuck with band-aids and several bugs we have to live with?
This is a complex question. First, 'can we expect... a stage where UWE fixes all the bugs,' this is certainly something no player should, or can reasonably expect. No piece of complex software can ever be in a state where all bugs are fixed, and Natural Selection 2 cannot defy this law; it is simply inherent in the nature of modern complex software development.
Second, regarding the release of an 'enhanced' version of Natural Selection 2. This would imply some sort of monolithic, final release. Unknown Worlds has no intention of making such a release, instead we wish to continue to develop Natural Selection 2 forever, with each individual update improving the game markedly for all concerned.
Third, 'will the game not receive any updates after a certain point.' This is a doozy, and it is impossible to answer at this time. Obviously at some point in the long term, NS2 would have to stop receiving updates - Even Windows XP had to lay down eventually. But of course you don't mean that, you mean over an indefinite reasonable timeframe. The intention is that Natural Selection 2 will continue to receive updates indefinitely, forever, as far as 'forever' can be defined in reasonable software lifecycle terms.
However, there is a strong possibility that Natural Selection 2 updates will have to stop. This could happen after 265, 270, 275 - They will stop if Unknown Worlds is unable to continue to add new value to the game with each update, and if the cost to Unknown Worlds of executing on new updates is unacceptable. That previous sentence justifies an entire essay of explanation just on its own, so I'll save that for more questions later in the thread!
[AwE]Sentinel wrote: »-What is the company's policy about the final goal for NS2?
The policy of Unknown Worlds is that the final goal for Natural Selection 2 is continued development over an indefinite time-frame. Just as one does not 'finish' DayZ, or Minecraft, or even, in meta terms, Natural Selection 2, development of Natural Selection 2 will not stop. That is the goal. Whether that goal can be achieved or not remains to be see, but it is the goal.
[AwE]Sentinel wrote: »P.S.: An advise to fix mods in advance is great! I bet MvM will profit a lot from it. The community would have loved that right from the beginning, though. We could still have a free 'working' combat mod that way. Imagine what NS2's community content would had been and how many extra sales would it had created with good player advertisement...
This advance warning was an initiative of @SamusDroid - Not only has he been an exceptionally driven and skilled technical lead for Build 265, he has also taken great interest in the needs of the community as a whole, including modders. He is an outstanding NS2 community member.
Re: X-Post from Modding: Imminent Update to Break Certain Mods
I'm sorry for the double post, I didn't read second page questions before making my reply.
No need to apologise @d0ped0g I am happy to expand on this. I mean a bit of both. Natural Selection 2 development is certainly subject to the universal laws of software development. It is also subject to its own peculiar and unique set of constraints. These constraints encompass:
- The particular capabilities of the team working on NS2 at present
- The desires and influence of NS2 players upon that team
- The ingrained 'way of doing things' present in NS2 development, that may or may not be conducive to sustainable long term development
- The extremely open nature of the official repositories (Unknown Worlds places extreme trust in NS2 player contributors with our code and art repositories)
- The resources available to it from Unknown Worlds, given Unknown Worlds has diversified into the development of multiple other projects, (enabled by the success of NS2 sales)
- The specific production methods utilised by Unknown Worlds (i.e. extremely open and non-structured, dependent on individual initiative, self-restraint, and small-team high intensity communication)
Going in depth on each of these elements would take quite some time. If people have specific questions regarding each element then I will do my best to answer them, depending on how long the thread lives and how civil it is.
*Edited to fix list
While I'm fairly sure you weren't directing this question at me, @Benson, I'll give the 'Unknown Worlds' answer anyway. It is unacceptable that any map included with Natural Selection 2 be regressed via update into a non-functional state, regardless of its popularity. Customers have a reasonable expectation, and Unknown Worlds expects of ourselves, that any map included with Natural Selection 2 be reasonably functional at all times.
Apologies for focusing on this one word... Do you mean inherent to ns2 development specifically, software development in general (i.e. what Ricez image encapsulates, that almost any dev can relate to), or a bit of both?
No need to apologise @d0ped0g I am happy to expand on this. I mean a bit of both. Natural Selection 2 development is certainly subject to the universal laws of software development. It is also subject to its own peculiar and unique set of constraints. These constraints encompass:
- The particular capabilities of the team working on NS2 at present
- The desires and influence of NS2 players upon that team
- The ingrained 'way of doing things' present in NS2 development, that may or may not be conducive to sustainable long term development
- The extremely open nature of the official repositories (Unknown Worlds places extreme trust in NS2 player contributors with our code and art repositories)
- The resources available to it from Unknown Worlds, given Unknown Worlds has diversified into the development of multiple other projects, (enabled by the success of NS2 sales)
- The specific production methods utilised by Unknown Worlds (i.e. extremely open and non-structured, dependent on individual initiative, self-restraint, and small-team high intensity communication)
Going in depth on each of these elements would take quite some time. If people have specific questions regarding each element then I will do my best to answer them, depending on how long the thread lives and how civil it is.
*Edited to fix list
I'm just curious. Why are people so up in arms about mineshaft being still broken? Its not played in Comp (a big part of this community) and most pubbers I play with thinks its a poorly designed map (to put it civilly).
While I'm fairly sure you weren't directing this question at me, @Benson, I'll give the 'Unknown Worlds' answer anyway. It is unacceptable that any map included with Natural Selection 2 be regressed via update into a non-functional state, regardless of its popularity. Customers have a reasonable expectation, and Unknown Worlds expects of ourselves, that any map included with Natural Selection 2 be reasonably functional at all times.