ns2_mineral

MasterG

Hello everyone. It's been far too long since I visited this forum, and touched the Spark editor in general. I should have been working on this map for over 2 years now but didn't have any motivation or incentive to do it properly until now.

I am currently building a NS2 map called Mineral(based on what used to be ns_crude_b3, and ns2_crude(never released)) and have released the first alpha version of it on Steam Workshop. What I would like is if people were interested in looking at the map, playing it in 6vs6 settings and all the standard see if there are bugs and such. If the games are streamed as well that is a huge bonus as I can watch what is going on in the games. Anything helps!

This is a university project for me this year as well so any help and feedback I can get is worth a lot to me. I am aiming to have the map fully playable and balanced for competitive by the end of the project's course. Any visual detail in the map will be a bonus, but I am sure I can make at least some rooms pretty before I "run out of time". The map will continue development even if the uni project ends. Right now it is only grey floors and developer textures on the walls. Everything technical is working fine so the map should be fully playable. There is currently no occlusion geometry as I didn't think it would be needed for such a low level of detail.

Current layout:



Marine start is always in Surface Access and aliens can start in Drill Site or Mineral Tanks.

I've already had Maxamus from Gorge Busters put it up on their server and have been allowed to do 6vs6 testing there. Pelargir will be adding the map to the 2hrslater and NSL Match Lyon servers. So a huge thank you for that! If any other server operators or teams/players would like to test the map and give me constructive criticism that would be sweet!

Here is the workshop link for the mod:

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=226965879&searchtext=mineral

And the mod ID is "d873977" for server admins wanting to get it up an working quickly.

Any feedback about the map can be posted in this thread, or sent to the level's email address ns2mineralfeedback [at] live.com

Anything you guys can think of is of help to me in developing this map and I'd like to thank you in advance for any effort towards providing feedback!

Flaterectomy

Based on the layout (so I don't know about any vertical breaks of line of sight) it looks like there might be issues with the render distance and general line of sight in Backup Generators in the east, and Transport Halls in the west. Would you be able to see Loading Bay from Equipment Storage?

I see a vent exit close to the TP in Automation Systems, which could pose issues with a gorge bilebombing from the vent.

And how does Cyst Corridor work? Can you really only cyst through it and not travel through it as a player?

Hopefully we can give the map a go this Sunday during out custom map testing, so I'll be able to give feedback based on actually having played the map.

MasterG

I've been paying very close attention to line of sight in the map. I play competitively myself so I know a good bit about how it should be. The deal in Transport Halls is that there are some doors that are permanently open, and some are permanently closed. You have to "switch sides" several times when going from Loading Bay to Equipment Storage(it's basically two separate hallways that have the same path). If that makes sense?

In Backup Generators you can't see very far either, because of the big structure in the middle of the room. Easier to see when in game.

I agree about the vent in Automation systems, I have to redo that and think of some other ways to have vents enter that room in general.

The cyst corridor is there to make Pumping Control less powerful for marines. To allow aliens to cyst past it if marines take Pumping Control, to allow aliens to have more resource nodes. It is just an idea someone in my team had so I thought it would be nice to test it. I wanted to make the corridor entrances small enough that onos couldn't enter, but that seems impossible without breaking the possibility of having cysts there.

Would be nice to see it played during some custom map testing, I really need all the feedback I can get. It would be preferable to see it played 6vs6 competitively though, but anything is helpful!

BeigeAlert

Sounds like a cool project. Is this part of a course at your university?

Kabelen wrote: »

The cyst corridor is there to make Pumping Control less powerful for marines. To allow aliens to cyst past it if marines take Pumping Control, to allow aliens to have more resource nodes. It is just an idea someone in my team had so I thought it would be nice to test it. I wanted to make the corridor entrances small enough that onos couldn't enter, but that seems impossible without breaking the possibility of having cysts there.

This isn't going to work quite how you intend. If you can cyst through an area, this means that you can also move macs, drifters, and arcs through that same path... unless something has changed, b/c I remember that's how it used to be.

MasterG

BeigeAlert wrote: »

Sounds like a cool project. Is this part of a course at your university?

This isn't going to work quite how you intend. If you can cyst through an area, this means that you can also move macs, drifters, and arcs through that same path... unless something has changed, b/c I remember that's how it used to be.

I am doing it as a project over several courses. So just ONE BIG project that I merge into all my assignments somehow.

I am aware of how it works with cysts. I couldn't block the path for an Onos, which obviously means it's not blocked for anything else as well. The idea was to have cysts and everything else able to go through there, but not Onos. But i could not make that work. But thanks for clarifying anyway.

I don't see it as a problem that macs and drifters can go through. You would need to direct them at Pumping Control to build that anyways, and if not building it or too occupied by opposite team you have a sort of backdoor. This is just a test to see how it works out, since Pumping Control is a REALLY powerful location IF marines can hold it. Also if an Onos should end up in that corridor and being chased he would probably be dead anyways as it will an easy trap spot. So I chose not to worry about what can and can not go through it until it's tested and I know how it plays out with it there. It may be very useful, or very overpowered.

I've already started work on Alpha version 2. Have a lot of plans for it.

Here's my to do list so far:

- Fix Drill Site so it can only be arced from Equipment Storage(not from entrance towards pumping stations) plus move Tech Location.
- Make corridor from Mineral Processing towards Lounge a bit shorter.
- Make path from Equipment Storage to Drill Site a bit longer to increase walking distance from Surface Access/Automation Systems to Drill Site.
- Add occlusion geometry for the whole level.
- Not much more until I have tested the map more.

I have added detail to Transfer, because I had a room built from earlier that I wanted to implement in that location anyways so I figured why not. It took quite some time to get it in because I needed to delete a lot of lights that were overdone(I had over 120 lights in one small room). Also changed it a bit to make sense with the current route of the right side of the map. Here's what is looks like through the mouth of a skulk:



I will start detailing Automation systems tomorrow as I have another half done room with a nice idea that was initially made for that middle part of the map as well. More updates will come when I have more.

MasterG

Made some changes to the map already. Had to fix the entrance to Automation Systems from System Access because of line of sight to the hive. Also increased marine walk time a little to the middle tech which is good. I took a part of another room I had built ages ago because it had a nice idea for the middle structure of the room. I had to edit it a bit to make it work like I wanted. Still heavy WIP but the general idea for the structure and the room in total is there:



Sorry for editor shot, couldn't be arsed to go in game. I also moved the vent entrance in Automation to the other side of the room(above the entrance from west access) and added a cover over it(like in nano on veil) to prevent bile-bombing of the tech point.

MasterG

Published version Alpha02 on the workshop a few minutes ago. Made a lot of changes to the map in terms of arcing distances and some routes were made longer. Also changed a lot of location names around the map to avoid confusion. There were too many "access" names. Here is the new overview:



Mod ID and workshop link is still the same. I tested it on my personal test server and it works just fine with the new ns2 build as well. I'll be posting a full change log later as I am running out of time right now.

Loki

Red circles - please try to avoid / remove these (personal view)
Blue line - massive LOS looking through all those rooms
Green circles - should be made ? vent on minimap as non traversable as basic marine / onos etc
orange - hole can get out of map very bad thing as get imbar lerks

I have only had a quick look round so far and those are the main things that came to mind, once ive played it I will post more

MasterG

Thanks for your comments Loki.

Red Circles - Sort of have to be that way, or have line of sight issues. I can try some things to fix it but I'm not sure if it's "possible".
Blue line - Will fix this for the next release.
Green circles - I need to find a way to show the doors in Transport Halls as closed on the overview as well. Not sure how, can I use Photoshop to add some stuff?
Orange - Yes, that and the vent from Loading Bay to Automation, completely missed that before publishing the map. It was fine one second and then I fixed something else and it was broken again. I will fix these hole issues and re-publish the map as fast as I can. Should really be no more than an hour.

Also, thanks to everyone who played last night even if it ended in an exploit fest due to the holes in the map. I got some valuable feedback on minor details, and not so much layout. I'm almost assuming this means the layout is fine? I know I need to break some hallways up into smaller rooms(security), but it's hard to do due to line of sight issues.

EDIT: Alpha02 is now republished without any holes in the map!

EDIT2: I promised a full change log.

- Changed a lot of location names as they were very similar and could cause confusion. All names are now different and it should be better.
- Changed Drill Site tech point, can not be ARCed from Lower Pumping Station anymore. Need to be ARCed from Equipment Storage or far into Tunnels.
- Added Drill Service location to increase walking distance from Surface/Automation System to Drill Site.
- Moved Automation System vent entrance and added cover over it to prevent bile bombing of the tech point.
- Changed System Access hallway to address line of sight issues into Automation System and in the location itself.
- Fixed line of sight issues in and around Pump Control.
- Added Occlusion Geometry to ready room, full occlusion of the map probably for next version.
- Added full detail to Transfer(Still WIP) and some detail to Automation System.

Flaterectomy

Kabelen wrote: »

Green circles - I need to find a way to show the doors in Transport Halls as closed on the overview as well. Not sure how, can I use Photoshop to add some stuff?

You can make the door commander invisible so it won't show up on the minimap, but then you won't see it from commander view either of course. If it blocks the view of floor north of it, then that's a good thing, of course.

Kabelen wrote: »

I got some valuable feedback on minor details, and not so much layout. I'm almost assuming this means the layout is fine?

One playtest does not a fine layout make. We should continue testing it regularly to spot issues.

MasterG

Flaterectomy wrote: »

You can make the door commander invisible so it won't show up on the minimap, but then you won't see it from commander view either of course. If it blocks the view of floor north of it, then that's a good thing, of course.

Ok that sounds reasonable. Maybe I can just make it commander invisible when making the overview, and then make it visible for commander again and save the map. I'll do some tests and see if it works.

Flaterectomy wrote: »

One playtest does not a fine layout make. We should continue testing it regularly to spot issues.

Yeah this was only a joke! I will leave the layout pretty much as is except a few things that I feel needs to be changed for the next version.

I've spent today working on the ready room, trying to set some kind of style. Still working on it so won't be done today most likely as I only have one hour left to work.

Howser

I like the layout and the scale feels good. The biggest problem I encountered (as I mentioned yesterday) is the bendy corridors. Try turn them into open rooms with a point of interest for the players to anchor their orientation on rather than having the Stanley parable corridors. Very good for an early build keep at it.

MasterG

Noted Howser!

WIP Ready Room:



Not sure about it yet, feels kind of uninteresting at the moment. Still getting back into working with the editor.

Rudy.cz

I am sure, you will get hang of it soon and start cranking top notch environments. Lighting is already good

Flaterectomy

One thing about the lighting: the ceiling is better lit than the floor - try to reposition your point lights and/or use downward pointing spot lights to turn that effect around.

MasterG

Thanks for comments guys. I've been working with getting more detail in the ceiling and adding some damage and fire stuff to the join alien entrance today. After I saw your comment @Flaterectormy I adjusted the lighting to have a brighter floor and a darker ceiling, as well as adding some ambient lights to avoid all the black spots.






I think the room is done for now. Don't see why the ready room should be anything more than it is at this point. Except maybe an update in lighting and the detailing in the join spectate area.

doeseph

You've got a solid design for a ready-room Kabelen, the only thing I would suggest is to play around with the contrast. The room is very uniform in both lighting and color selection which makes it look plain, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing considering it's an inconsequential location. Call it done and spend your time making the more important areas look awesome.

Good work!

MasterG

Thanks for your feedback @doeseph.

I've been doing some small changes around the map today, opened up one corridor a bit more and made a small room instead of 3 turns. Going to update security area tomorrow I guess. I've also started on detail in Surface, I was inspired by @Flaterectomy's pillars in gorgasm. Here's a WIP editor screenshot.



This is done on a 45 degree angle so taking some time to get used to that again. Will continue this tomorrow as well.

MasterG

So I've been working more on the Surface tech point(Marine start) today and am so far satisfied with my work. I still feel that the ceiling is darker than it should be, but then again there is the thing about having contrast. As a competitive player I think it's too dark, but as a mapper I feel that it looks quite nice. Maybe bump up the ambient light intensity some more and add some more lights in the right places will do the trick.

Other than lighting I've got a few props in there as well as added a lot more geometry to it. Still not complete in any aspect, just wanted to show what I've got so far.




And it's the veil skybox by the way. It looks nice and I will use it until I need to change it for some reason.

doeseph

As a competitive player I think it's too dark, but as a mapper I feel that it looks quite nice.

Any level designer worth his/her salt has this exact mental battle going on endlessly, but the good level designers find a way to satisfy both. You have an opportunity to do that here.

From a competitive perspective the dark ceiling sucks because it might bring about an unfair/unintentional advantage to one side that is frustrating to experience as the other.
From an artistic perspective the dark ceiling sucks because when you account for global illumination, the room is far too well lit to have such dark shadows and corners.

It looks to be coming along nicely Kabelen, keep up the good work!

Flaterectomy

You can always use ambient lighting to light up the pitch black areas slightly; often bounce lighting will light up those dark spots in the real world as well.

coolitic

Some rooms seem to be too compact, giving shotguns and aliens an advantage. (such as loading bay)

Of course I'm looking at these from the minimap and not the actual room so I might be wrong. Otherwise seems like good map.

xtcmen

Those screen shots look really good. I am excited to see more... good luck to you.

MasterG

Thanks for your comments guys. Have noted everything and will keep it in mind when continuing.

Some rooms seem to be too compact, giving shotguns and aliens an advantage. (such as loading bay)

Loading bay is actually a fairly large room. It is very tall as well, so I don't think there will be a problem with being compact there. Other areas I think are worse. Will have a look at it later on.

For now I will finish detailing Surface, probably tomorrow some time. I have bumped up the ambient lights a lot and it looks much better, satisfies both the competitive and the artistic. After Surface is complete I will make some minor changes to the greybox before adding occlusion for the map. Once occlusion is done I will probably release alpha 03.

coolitic

I was basing it on the minimap, so please excuse me.

MasterG

coolitic wrote: »

I was basing it on the minimap, so please excuse me.

No problem mate, just wanted to clarify it for you.

MasterG

Hey again folks just checking in with a small, mostly written, progress update.

- Sort of finished surface, needs a bit more work on some lighting and minor detail work.
- Rebuilt area between Pump Control and Pumping Stations.
- Moved Pump Control, Stairway and Central Path a little east to compensate for said rebuild.
- Opened up Security to a room instead of turning hallway.
- Moved Lockers RT and rebuilt it a little to remove the 180 degree turn in System Access.
- Moved Stasis Chamber a little bit south to compensate for new Surface(Marine Start).
- Renamed Mineral Processing to Processing to avoid confusion with Mineral Tanks.
- Kind of fixed line of sight issue in Equipment Storage/Drill Server(thanks Loki).
- Made some crates in Transport Halls "vent"(orange) and tried to make the closed doors a bit more obvious on the overview. (look ok??)
- Started building OcclusionGeometry and it is taking way longer than expected.

Here's the current overview of Alpha 03:



Noticed that I can sort of see through the occlusion geometry in some places, is it necessary to weld the vertices on it? Hope someone can answer this.

I'm not gonna get a playable Alpha 03 ready for Sunday's playtest session. Probably won't be ready until mid-week sometime. Still hoping we can play a round of Alpha 02, and I also hope to make it to the session myself.

MasterG

Small update today.

- Finished occlusion geometry for the whole level, what a time consuming task!
- Opened up Central Path location to a room instead of just corridors.
- Removed a lot of location names from the overview(it was a bit cluttered).
- Moved location names on the overview so they don´t block resource nodes and power nodes.
- Made all crates in Transport Halls and Equipment Storage "vent" on the overview. Will fix the same for crates in Drill Service and Loading bay later.
- Added ramp around the drill in Drill Site as well as a ladder on one end of said ramp.

Final Alpha03 layout looks like this:



I will be working with some minor detail left to do in surface and elsewhere in the map tomorrow. And then see if it is ready for release of next version.

MasterG

Alpha version 03 is released on the workshop guys! Not much to say than I have been working a lot to make it as good as it can possibly be so early on.

Changelog:

- Built a proper, detailed Ready Room.
- Finished "Surface" detail work(may need some more detail and lighting work).
- Rebuilt area between "Pump Control" and "Pumping Stations"(To remove 180 degree turns, thanks Loki!).
- Moved "Pump Control", "Stairway" and "Central Path" a little east to compensate for said rebuild.
- Opened up "Security" to a room instead of turning corridor(Thanks Howser!).
- Opened up "Central Path" location to a room instead of just corridors(Thanks Howser!).
- Moved "Lockers" RT and rebuilt the room a little(To remove the 180 degree turn in "System Access", thanks Loki!).
- Moved "Stasis Chamber" a little bit south to compensate for remade "Surface" and "Lockers"(Marine Start).
- Added ramp around the drill in "Drill Site" as well as a ladder on one end of said ramp.
- Built 3D "skybox" in surface.
- Built Occlusion Geometry for the whole level.
- Renamed "Mineral Tanks" to "Mineral Processing".
- Renamed "Backup Generators" to "Generators".
- Renamed "Equipment Storage" to "Storage".
- Renamed "Drill Service" to "Service".
- Renamed "Mineral Processing" to "Production", to avoid confusion with "Mineral Tanks/Processing".
- Made all crates in the level "vent"(orange) and made closed doors more obvious on the overview.
- Moved location names on the overview so they don´t block resource nodes and power nodes.
- Moved "Pump Control" power node to the west wall.
- Moved "Lounge" power node to north wall towards Production.
- Moved window in "Surface" ceiling downward(preventing aliens from looking too far outside).
- Removed a lot of location names from the overview as it was a bit cluttered.(Stasis Chambers, System Access, Service, Stairway, Cyst Corridor)
- Fixed line of sight issue in "Transport Halls/Storage/Service"(Thanks Loki!).
- Rebuilt ventilation from "Stairway" to "Transport Halls" to fix Occlusion/Draw calls issues.
- Moved "Transport Halls" west ventilation entrance north and switched exit point to "Service" instead of "Storage".

Screenshots:

Updated overview(again):

As usual it would rock if people have the time to check it out and give me some feedback on this. I would also like to arrange a playtest of this map so it would be possible to play several rounds on it. Was wondering, @Howser, if it's possible to use the Spark Craft Collective server for this on any day other than Sunday?

That's it for now, enjoy!

Flaterectomy

Just had a quick run around on my own on the SCC server, and I noticed that the Generators RT can be sniped from quite a distance at the entrance from Mineral Processing. Aside from that there's a couple of pitch black areas here and there, that I would personally light up slightly with some ambient lights. Other than that it's looking good, we'll just need to test it some more.

I left the map on the server and in the rotation for now.

MasterG

Thanks Flaterectomy, I tried to get all the black spots on a walkthrough I had but I guess I forgot some. I'll fix the light issues and the sniping distance asap and republish. Good to just get some small hotfixes out.

EDIT: Republished map with fixed pitch black spots(vents don't count!) and moved the RT in Generators slightly to avoid sniping, but can be sniped from other side now. But it's not such a big deal since it should be easier to engage marines in the smaller area towards Transfer.

EDIT: Will try to get a public playtest of mineral going on the SCC server on Thursday at 18:00 CET, anyone is welcome!