fmponeJoin Date: 2011-07-05Member: 108086Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1876190:date=Sep 21 2011, 07:00 PM:name=Death_by_bullets)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Death_by_bullets @ Sep 21 2011, 07:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1876190"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why not time how fast it takes to walk from MS to Cargo in NS1 and benchmark to the NS2 remake. Irregardless of the difference in walking speeds between NS1 and NS2 (Assuming there is one) try to make it about the same time so that it feels the same. This will explain whether the map feels larger because of lack of props, detail, ect or because it is in fact larger.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well it is in fact very obvious why this map is bigger than the NS1 version. I insist you guys go back and look at East Junction, for instance. That area is, in my opinion, actually too small or shrunken. Now, I may have gone overboard in correcting that.
But again, the map is clearly large. I'm more hoping people will actually play it and judge by whether or not its fun. How is the balance of the map itself, in other words. A few big rooms is no worry
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A bit too large rooms, biggest problems are beacon not working and the fact you can jump over rails<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i guess you ment "you cant jump over rails" - at least i cant as marine.
douchebagatronCustom member titleJoin Date: 2003-12-20Member: 24581Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
edited September 2011
I'm impressed with how well you recreated it. I'd like to see some props get added in to update it to current visuals, and have more directional lighting, and some actual light sources instead of just ambient lighting.
overall I think it's a great start and I'd love to see it fleshed out.
I had a moment to run around it and it does seem very large, but I think that when NS2 is more optimized that will be fine. at the current state it's just too big, but I don't think that's a good enough reason to make it smaller.
Main issue I'm worrying about is that aliens don't have enough hive energy at the start to get to any RT, and the closest is double, so there's no uncontested RTs the aliens can get, whereas the marines get 2.
fmponeJoin Date: 2011-07-05Member: 108086Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1876202:date=Sep 21 2011, 08:19 PM:name=6john)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (6john @ Sep 21 2011, 08:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1876202"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm impressed with how well you recreated it. I'd like to see some props get added in to update it to current visuals, and have more directional lighting, and some actual light sources instead of just ambient lighting.
overall I think it's a great start and I'd love to see it fleshed out.
I had a moment to run around it and it does seem very large, but I think that when NS2 is more optimized that will be fine. at the current state it's just too big, but I don't think that's a good enough reason to make it smaller.
Main issue I'm worrying about is that aliens don't have enough hive energy at the start to get to any RT, and the closest is double, so there's no uncontested RTs the aliens can get, whereas the marines get 2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thank you, and thank you for the post.
I think I'm going to shrink the map down 20% as has been repeatedly mentioned. I went back and walked around and it can't hurt.
As for the RTs etc, I'm going to wait until I play a large game with some folks to pass judgement on that. I just can't say when I've only played one game with a small number of people.
<!--quoteo(post=1876190:date=Sep 22 2011, 12:00 AM:name=Death_by_bullets)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Death_by_bullets @ Sep 22 2011, 12:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1876190"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why not time how fast it takes to walk from MS to Cargo in NS1 and benchmark to the NS2 remake. Irregardless of the difference in walking speeds between NS1 and NS2 (Assuming there is one) try to make it about the same time so that it feels the same. This will explain whether the map feels larger because of lack of props, detail, ect or because it is in fact larger.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's a factor of both. Slightly (but not much larger) rooms it seems in places. Although the aliens are much slower in NS2.
fmponeJoin Date: 2011-07-05Member: 108086Members, Squad Five Blue
edited September 2011
I shrunk the map 20%. It looks near perfect, if a tad small. I might bring it up a bit just so that the entities don't seem enormous compared the rooms. This sets me back quite a ways, but also gives me a bit of a clean slate. It's a bit of a wash. A new alpha in probably a week or two, most likely. Bad graphics in that one, as well. Actually, the graphics will be way worse because I had to revert to a version with an ugly marine spawn. But sometimes you've got to take a step backward to take two steps forward.
Currently I face a bit of a dilemma: if I were to go by exactly how the NS2 mapping guide recommends, the marines would have a tech point at West Skylights. Is that a good idea? (Considering the point at topographic would be a rt)
Had a great time playing on your map, its a shame my internet disconnected partway through.
If i were to do a little nit-picking, i would say how the map overview has marine start of the left and the hives to the right, while in the original ns_veil, as i recall, the overview showed marine start on top, and the three hive locations on the bottom.
I also hope you can fix the navigation error in Marine start on that little staircase, but since your redoing marine start anyway, i guess we'll just have to wait and see.
Also in skylights, when you try to place a turret in the bottom left corner of the res tower room, the turret ends up being built on top of the wall.
aeroripperJoin Date: 2005-02-25Member: 42471NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
Just had a run through. As already stated, the room dimensions are HUGE, but the overall flow of the original is pretty faithfully recreated minus a couple of areas. I know its going to be difficult to adapt NS2 gameplay mechanics to a map designed for NS1, but it feels WEIRD having tech points in areas like overlook. Personally I would try this:
1) Put tech points in Marine Start, Sub, Cargo, and Pipeline.
2) Put power nodes in Marine Start, Sub, Cargo, Pipeline, and Double. Although personally I'd love to see a map with a power node in every room just for the effect.
3) Shrink rooms sizes to be more in line with NS2 player sizes.
See how that plays out and if its completely imbalanced then try re-arranging tech points.
SewlekThe programmer previously known as SchimmelJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
my opinion on the tech points: keep them in the hvie rooms as it was in ns1. I don't care if you change the position of those rooms, but that would be the most important thing if you want to keep the feel veil had in ns1. you also should add a fifth tech point (maybe in double res room, to give relocation option to marines?)
fmponeJoin Date: 2011-07-05Member: 108086Members, Squad Five Blue
Don't worry guys, it wsa a mistake that the tech points weren't in their original locations at all. As for the rooms, after much contemplation, I'm going to keep them rather large. Not huge like they are now, but large. The reason for this is simple, Summit is way too small and cramped a map, and although the onos and jetpacks are a long ways off, I want to have room for them and room for error when they do get here. This means making the rooms large but reasonable, some areas are just too huge and ridiculous right now like parts of subsector and topographical.
I spent alot of time running through and timing the distance from hive to hive on nearly all of the ns1 maps, to get the timing for my map, and what you should be aiming for is roughly 30 seconds between each hive walking from marine start(this includes walking from MS to cargo, and to each subsequent hive, since the hive could spawn at any of the 3 hives, they kept most of the routes at a very close interval). The rooms here are definitely stretched in some places, and going from marine start to pipeline took about 1:00, so the path is much too long. The other routes were closer, about 30-40 seconds between hive rooms (im timing between what the hive rooms were in ns1, not where you put them in your build btw, so i walk the distance to where the hive would be in the ns1 version) i think it took 45 seconds to get from sub sector to MS, thats probably too high as well.
A good start though, I do think you should flip the whole map 90 degrees, so that MS is on top, as that is how it is in ns1. Might i suggest either finding an overview of the ns1 veil, or just take a screen shot with your minimap open, then take the minimap file from your map, overlay them in photoshop, and figure out where you have made things too large.
In the current map im building, the timing between hives is about the same, 30 seconds to each hive, and it doesnt feel large to me, so that is probably what you want to aim for.
I dont know when you started, but I know youve been working on your own map, so you couldnt have been working on this for too long, and you got it out impressively quickly, good job.
ZeikkoJoin Date: 2007-12-16Member: 63179Members, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester
We played a team match with our public eu team against duplex last night in your map. We will post an epic splitscreen video of it to youtube soon. Hopefully it will be ready in 48 hours. It wasn't too serious match but I hope it provides some feedback how the map plays and gives some entertainment to other people.
God this is going to be fun. Takes forever to get res as aliens tho, fail and gg if get dbl and lose it.
found a bug. As rine comm can get a mac to build a node + pg in alien starts 'roof'. You can then walk accross the middle of roof and free fire down onto hive/res node. Falling off map is a problem too.
I can see this becoming quite fun to play just like the original with some scale and dimension adjusting :).
1) Able to build outside of alien start. Not sure how the comm got his macs there though.. <img src="http://i.imgur.com/Me1GT.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
2) Able to see aliens on minimap hiding in vents in double even though we don't have LOS (scan or anything) which is weird and might not be map related which leads to a general question - does occlusion geometry block LOS?
3) The pipeline powernode placement is a bit too hidden i think.
4) Just a thought to move alien start to pipeline or sub. With the cyst energy system, the only really viable alien strategy with cargo as AS is to secure double which is easily shutdown. So aliens are either playing on 1 rt or 3 which makes for pretty volatile but predictable game flow i think.
PS macs/drifters have trouble with stairs for some reason. I couldnt get mac to go down the stairs in pipe junction without clicking them to go slightly to the side. had to go in a
do a go forward click right click forward click left click forward click
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->you also should add a fifth tech point (maybe in double res room, to give relocation option to marines?)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree. Keeping the hive in their original places and an additional tech point on double can lead to great strategies while keeping the old feel of the map intact :D
You did a great job, I'll download it to look around.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2) Able to see aliens on minimap hiding in vents in double even though we don't have LOS (scan or anything) which is weird and might not be map related which leads to a general question - does occlusion geometry block LOS?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Occlusion geometry doesnt do anything at the moment, one of the devs posted in a thread a bit back, they are still working on implementing it, and I believe the old system is still in, but is very lacking (IE, in my map I have a window and I can see my readyroom, even though its quite a distance away, and is surrounded by occlusion geo)
The ns1 guy is cheating at the end yeah. But he also take 17 seconds to topographical while the NS2 one takes 25, almost 50% more. He was not sprinting though.
fmponeJoin Date: 2011-07-05Member: 108086Members, Squad Five Blue
edited September 2011
I'd be very interested in that video. My basic plan right now is to remake everything keeping what feels right and throwing out what feels wrong. A lot feels wrong, but I think I nailed some parts pretty well too.
Let's not get fanatical about the scales though -- it can't and shouldn't be 100% the same. The important thing is that it looks and feels right, and doesn't alter the spirit of the original map+layout.
<!--quoteo(post=1876387:date=Sep 22 2011, 10:24 PM:name=fmpone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fmpone @ Sep 22 2011, 10:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1876387"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd be very interested in that video. My basic plan right now is to remake everything keeping what feels right and throwing out what feels wrong. A lot feels wrong, but I think I nailed some parts pretty well too.
Let's not get fanatical about the scales though -- it can't and shouldn't be 100% the same. The important thing is that it looks and feels right, and doesn't alter the spirit of the original map+layout.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1876408:date=Sep 22 2011, 06:11 PM:name=Tig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tig @ Sep 22 2011, 06:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1876408"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->private video is private.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I know, the video is being updated.
Video with side by side comparison: <a href="http://www.jodriscoll.com/Gaming/NS2/NS2_VEIL_2.mp4" target="_blank">http://www.jodriscoll.com/Gaming/NS2/NS2_VEIL_2.mp4</a>
ZeikkoJoin Date: 2007-12-16Member: 63179Members, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester
<!--quoteo(post=1876240:date=Sep 22 2011, 09:55 AM:name=Zeikko)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zeikko @ Sep 22 2011, 09:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1876240"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We played a team match with our public eu team against duplex last night in your map. We will post an epic splitscreen video of it to youtube soon. Hopefully it will be ready in 48 hours. It wasn't too serious match but I hope it provides some feedback how the map plays and gives some entertainment to other people.
Keep up the good work fmpone!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Here's the video I was talking about: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWcjv518Kh0" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWcjv518Kh0</a>
oh man, don't mind about my awful game play and the stupid Mumble talking :D but there a lot of comments about the map while playing it.
We had some problems with syncing because of lags but should be still okay. I'll post the Marines side tomorrow its much more fun with that commander view and better synced :)
Comments
Well it is in fact very obvious why this map is bigger than the NS1 version. I insist you guys go back and look at East Junction, for instance. That area is, in my opinion, actually too small or shrunken. Now, I may have gone overboard in correcting that.
But again, the map is clearly large. I'm more hoping people will actually play it and judge by whether or not its fun. How is the balance of the map itself, in other words. A few big rooms is no worry
i guess you ment "you cant jump over rails" - at least i cant as marine.
overall I think it's a great start and I'd love to see it fleshed out.
I had a moment to run around it and it does seem very large, but I think that when NS2 is more optimized that will be fine. at the current state it's just too big, but I don't think that's a good enough reason to make it smaller.
Main issue I'm worrying about is that aliens don't have enough hive energy at the start to get to any RT, and the closest is double, so there's no uncontested RTs the aliens can get, whereas the marines get 2.
overall I think it's a great start and I'd love to see it fleshed out.
I had a moment to run around it and it does seem very large, but I think that when NS2 is more optimized that will be fine. at the current state it's just too big, but I don't think that's a good enough reason to make it smaller.
Main issue I'm worrying about is that aliens don't have enough hive energy at the start to get to any RT, and the closest is double, so there's no uncontested RTs the aliens can get, whereas the marines get 2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thank you, and thank you for the post.
I think I'm going to shrink the map down 20% as has been repeatedly mentioned. I went back and walked around and it can't hurt.
As for the RTs etc, I'm going to wait until I play a large game with some folks to pass judgement on that. I just can't say when I've only played one game with a small number of people.
It's a factor of both. Slightly (but not much larger) rooms it seems in places. Although the aliens are much slower in NS2.
Currently I face a bit of a dilemma: if I were to go by exactly how the NS2 mapping guide recommends, the marines would have a tech point at West Skylights. Is that a good idea? (Considering the point at topographic would be a rt)
If i were to do a little nit-picking, i would say how the map overview has marine start of the left and the hives to the right, while in the original ns_veil, as i recall, the overview showed marine start on top, and the three hive locations on the bottom.
I also hope you can fix the navigation error in Marine start on that little staircase, but since your redoing marine start anyway, i guess we'll just have to wait and see.
Also in skylights, when you try to place a turret in the bottom left corner of the res tower room, the turret ends up being built on top of the wall.
1) Put tech points in Marine Start, Sub, Cargo, and Pipeline.
2) Put power nodes in Marine Start, Sub, Cargo, Pipeline, and Double. Although personally I'd love to see a map with a power node in every room just for the effect.
3) Shrink rooms sizes to be more in line with NS2 player sizes.
See how that plays out and if its completely imbalanced then try re-arranging tech points.
this
A good start though, I do think you should flip the whole map 90 degrees, so that MS is on top, as that is how it is in ns1. Might i suggest either finding an overview of the ns1 veil, or just take a screen shot with your minimap open, then take the minimap file from your map, overlay them in photoshop, and figure out where you have made things too large.
In the current map im building, the timing between hives is about the same, 30 seconds to each hive, and it doesnt feel large to me, so that is probably what you want to aim for.
I dont know when you started, but I know youve been working on your own map, so you couldnt have been working on this for too long, and you got it out impressively quickly, good job.
Keep up the good work fmpone!
Takes forever to get res as aliens tho, fail and gg if get dbl and lose it.
found a bug. As rine comm can get a mac to build a node + pg in alien starts 'roof'. You can then walk accross the middle of roof and free fire down onto hive/res node.
Falling off map is a problem too.
<a href="http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/6390/2011092200003.jpg" target="_blank">http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/6390/2011092200003.jpg</a>
<a href="http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/6991/2011092200002.jpg" target="_blank">http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/6991/2011092200002.jpg</a>
<a href="http://img854.imageshack.us/img854/1875/2011092200005.jpg" target="_blank">http://img854.imageshack.us/img854/1875/2011092200005.jpg</a>
Fell down didnt die... is funny falling away from map watching it get smaller and smaller....
1) Able to build outside of alien start. Not sure how the comm got his macs there though..
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/Me1GT.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
2) Able to see aliens on minimap hiding in vents in double even though we don't have LOS (scan or anything) which is weird and might not be map related which leads to a general question - does occlusion geometry block LOS?
3) The pipeline powernode placement is a bit too hidden i think.
4) Just a thought to move alien start to pipeline or sub. With the cyst energy system, the only really viable alien strategy with cargo as AS is to secure double which is easily shutdown. So aliens are either playing on 1 rt or 3 which makes for pretty volatile but predictable game flow i think.
And clicked macs as normal build.
PS macs/drifters have trouble with stairs for some reason. I couldnt get mac to go down the stairs in pipe junction without clicking them to go slightly to the side. had to go in a
do a go forward click
right click
forward click
left click
forward click
sorta fashion to get them to their destination ><
I agree. Keeping the hive in their original places and an additional tech point on double can lead to great strategies while keeping the old feel of the map intact :D
You did a great job, I'll download it to look around.
Occlusion geometry doesnt do anything at the moment, one of the devs posted in a thread a bit back, they are still working on implementing it, and I believe the old system is still in, but is very lacking (IE, in my map I have a window and I can see my readyroom, even though its quite a distance away, and is surrounded by occlusion geo)
Scale does need to be adjusted heavily...
Scale does need to be adjusted heavily...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
there is a large cut in the ns1 part :/ (42 secs)
Let's not get fanatical about the scales though -- it can't and shouldn't be 100% the same. The important thing is that it looks and feels right, and doesn't alter the spirit of the original map+layout.
Let's not get fanatical about the scales though -- it can't and shouldn't be 100% the same. The important thing is that it looks and feels right, and doesn't alter the spirit of the original map+layout.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i would sign that ! sold!
I know, the video is being updated.
<b>Here are the numbers:</b>
NS1 Skulk @ 1:36; NS1 Marine @ 2:17
NS2 Skulk @ 2:10; NS2 Marine (Walk) @ 3:02; NS2 Marine (Run) @ 2:33
Video with side by side comparison:
<a href="http://www.jodriscoll.com/Gaming/NS2/NS2_VEIL_2.mp4" target="_blank">http://www.jodriscoll.com/Gaming/NS2/NS2_VEIL_2.mp4</a>
Keep up the good work fmpone!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Here's the video I was talking about:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWcjv518Kh0" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWcjv518Kh0</a>
Funny stuff :D
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWcjv518Kh0" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWcjv518Kh0</a>
Funny stuff :D<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
oh man, don't mind about my awful game play and the stupid Mumble talking :D but there a lot of comments about the map while playing it.
We had some problems with syncing because of lags but should be still okay. I'll post the Marines side tomorrow its much more fun with that commander view and better synced :)