I don't really see a problem. Try playing on different server, im getting plenty of games that are long and have memorable moments, turn over from "lost" games, great cooperation and fun new tactics..
There is really little real difference between 2.01 and 3.0b2, biggest are- fixed hitboxes, cheaper onos, fixed MT, mines and umbra.. Everything else is almost same, HA don't cost more or need less time, still 3 minute for armory upgrady and 1:40 for HA ugprade..
Don't fool yourself, aliens are strong enough and i wittnessed many games where they won from really bad looking situation even if it took 30-40 minutes.. Hell they even keep winning on 24ppl servers regurally!
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->They had it right at 1.04, only a few more tweaks were needed, which should have been 1.1, and then the final combat mode, which would be 2.0. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When 1.1 was ment to come out they delayed it ( no suprizes there ) but the people who tested it gave feedback on how the game is wernt given by there own admission enuff time to test it. and huge unbalanced issues aroused imadently also bugs w00t 5 patchs in a month or 2.
Id like to focus on the unbalanced issue, for balance team skill has to be very high. The reson for this is when they say ohh lerk need to be changed improved .. how skilled with lerk are those playtesters this goes for any class i think the reason the gameplay has been lost is lack of playtesters ablity to play the game,PERSONAL SKILL LEVELS at the time of 1.03/1.04 were very low compared to todays standards. for ns to takea step forward i think we have to take a step backwards in playtesting or view it from this angle.
There idea of balance has converted into basicaly , The team with the higest skilled player ( yes just 1 good player ) determains the way the games gona go only exception to this rule is exelant team play buy the oposing team ( makeing sure they home in and as a groupe always attack that player in the groupe and this is asking far to mutch forpublic players or the good player has a bad round. 95% of the games i personal join go may teams way. I know the games not finished and it prolly will never be perfectly balanced this is why i thik NS has to be split into a 3rd catorgry so far we have 3.0 , combat , and i proposeing NS leauge version makeing the game difrent from public play that needs unbalance on both sides to bring the game to a close. A mutch more harder game takeing the abality for 1 person to sway the games closure away and makeing it very very team play dependant. If you think you have done this in 3.0 LOL@YOU i dont personaly know how you as game dev's wish the game to go but im tell you strait up you will never have a version of the game that is going to be fair for both public and clan play due to the huge skill level diffrence and advantages that clan play has.
Others will always think diffrently and im prolly wasteing my time at this stage of the ns comunaty's hopefully long life. i just have to voice this opinion mabie if you dont understand woot im saying now you will either when you wake up smell the coffie :E or you get genrally better at the game.
If you dont under stand woot im saying dont view this as a "flame" <-- general catorgy that any new or radical changes/arguable improvements get classed under by the adoring hords or ns fans.
i dont think im "1337" just would like to game to be made harder atm its just n00b rape.
n00b rape = short games. your not gona get the extreamly long games that were common 1.03/1.04 because people have got more skilled and are more effective at bringing the game to a close but then hopefully were not going to get the other extream of the 4 min jp 1.04 rush game over man game over ! i stand with my prev statment we need a version for high skilled clan play and a version for the rest to think is "fair" with the release of combat people should get better faster time will tell how this ones goes for all i know they dont give a **** about high standard play and just want to please the masses time will only tell.
I think that has been mentioned before, that the playtesting goes on at clan level and us pubs are left out until the closing stages and have a hard time changing anything because of said vets.
The problem in pubs is that ther aliens dont show any teamwork atm in 3.0, probably mainly due to the influx of newer players...
If the skulks actually went to defend an RT under attack, or the gorge helped skulks take down an eleccy RT, then they would get somewhere <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
honestly I liked the old way better waswell.
gorges never starved. If they did the team was seriously losing. And it was ended fast.
Also rushes were less common. Now when I, as permagorge, am happily building RTs and upgrades I suddenly am in the RR cause again. the match ended. within 5 minutes.
Useless to say, that if we let the other team live they never recover. Same with rines. If or gorges get ambushed we never recover from the loss. This ends in large F4 parties. Atleast in the old days there WAS a comeback chance.
Why bother giving rfk for kills? I never liked it. if you need it to gain res, you are low on RTs anywayz and LOSING. This only enables turtling rines to be able to get more res while we try to hit a base. Sure turtling has been nerfed. But right about now its with all things.
gorges + res were changed cause: noobies were onos saving res to many gorges nerfed the system.
easy fix I'd say. Make the gorges more like a rines comm. make a max number of gorges. (2, 3 at most) And maybe a way to force a gorge to evolve to skulk when the gorge is stupid. 2 or 3 gorges so we still can have teamups and new ppl still can teamup with old gorges to learn. 2, lateron 3 gorges never hurt the system. It was within res limits.
I say I am very willing to see the old longer matches again. Especially cause the latest matches are usually over before the gorges had the fun of actually playing themselves.
And no, unlike alot of ppl say, I still do not believe a team without permagorges has a good survival chance.
If one team really outskills the other, then the game <b>should end really damn fast!</b>
Equal teams will still have longer games (20 min++) in 2.01. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> OMG!!! DONT BLIND US!!!
1 Turret factory allowing you to place turrets anywhere, thus allowing you to get rid of electrify completely without the marines feeling like they got nothing. because if you really think about it, if you have one factory you should be able to make as many as you want, because the aliens dont have to have a offense chamber factory do they? well, thats just my opinion.
With NS 1.04 we very rarely got stalemates lasting past 45mins, and when they did happen everyone really enjoyed them, however with 2.0 we got games that were realy really long, sometimes up to an hour and a half. This I found boring and repetative, its nice to have a change once in a while with a stalemate but when the every game is a stalemate it just gets boring. tbh I think 3.0 is one of the best releases yet, has most of the atmosphere of 1.0 back with the advances of 2.0.
I think it's fine the way it is. Rather than have long games all the damn time, I think it causes more 'memorable moments' when 3/4 of the games are over in less than 30 minutes, and when you have a really good game going, THEN let it be drawn out. You can't expect every game to be the best game of your life, and the current system allows for quite a bit of variety in game times: you have your <5 minute skulk/shotty rushes, your average 15-30 minute game, and your dramatic drawn out 45-90 minute game (and these long ones compromise about 10-20% of games in pubs, which is about right imho).
My only real gripe with this is that in the long games, either the marines are just delaying the inevitable by turtling in their base and nade spamming, or the aliens are basically screwed because once the marines have finished teching up to 3/3, all of their res buys heavy weapons. 1.04 had good points but I like the current system much better... however there's a progression where in the early game, aliens have the advantage, mid game, it's pretty even (this is where the fun is I think, the desperate PG/siege station going up, and the intense battle with all of both teams battling for it), but in late game marines have the upper hand. I'm not sure if this is on purpose or not.
The new onos price helps this a lot though, as it gives aliens a better chance at getting 3 hives as turret farms are not as big of a deal. Overall I'm very happy with 3.0. Thanks Flayra & team for all your hard work!!! <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Hey Forlorn... its been a while since I've taken a poke at you <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
You think a 20 minute game constitutes a long game?
Many of us who refer to "epic" games are those that lasted 90 minutes or more... and 90 minutes is really a pretty low estimate. I didn't really find as much enjoyment in games unless they generally lasted at least two hours. Those games let you experience at some level a sense of brotherhood, comeraderie, and trust on top of teamwork. This is of course on pub servers (ie. where the majority of all NS players play). Playing with your clan really makes that argument a moot point. Regardless of where imbalances might have existed in the game, the fun was more in being a part of your team than winning.
Oh I forgot... You think that if you're not playing to win then you might as well not play at all <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Just as a side note... I noticed your previous post regarding some of the things you find memorable about post 1.04 builds and could only come to the conclusion that you are much in favor to the existence of god-like rambos running around the map. Rambo's are quite simply the absolute antitheses to squad-based teamwork on which the game is hinged. It seems to me like the only things that make the game memorable to you (ie. individualism and personal skill) are those that are out of spirit with the game's baseline focus. (ie. teamwork and strategy)
I'll stop picking on you now Forlorn. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Moving on... I find that my desire for fast paced action is completely fulfilled by playing a quick game of NS:Combat. I'd really like to see NS:Classic branch away from the faster pace that has been incrementally placed upon it. I have one thing to suggest that might help to a small degree to balance things out slightly and leave in all the things that have been argued about (such as electrify, paper-like higher lifeforms).
Here goes.
For every latent upgrade given to marines it raises the cost of respawn by 1 res. Vanilla marines cost 0 res to spawn so this doesn't effect the early game any. Once upgrades in armor, weapons, and motion-tracking are researched the price of respawn is effectively raised. This is somewhat akin to relating your new recruits (fresh spawn) to seasoned marines as opposed to fresh meat. Once all latent upgrades are researched spawning costs a maximum of 7 res. Let's examine some of the ramifications of this.
One of the biggest things I see is that the life of a marine will be more valuable later in the game and enforce teamwork (ie. watching eachother's backs). Dying during the lategame for the marines costs the team and thus is greatly discouraged. On top of this, it will greatly quicken the final throes of marine defence when it comes down to sieging the 'rine base at the absolute end of the game (not entirely sure I like this aspect as marine base sieges are usually pretty fun). This being due to the fact that during the endgame 'rines lose their res VERY quickly (no nodes) and since respawning costs res it will go even faster not to mention preventing respawn all together until there is enough res to use.
Its easily arguable that a max respawn penalty of 7 res is way too much... i concede this, but the idea of upgrades effecting future respawn cost might want to be looked at.
coilAmateur pirate. Professional monkey. All pance.Join Date: 2002-04-12Member: 424Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
A marine could care less about how much he costs. The only one who will be affected by respawn cost will be the Commander, in the form of additional stress whenever a marine dies. There used to be a respawn cost (1 RP), but it was removed because Commanders would end up yelling at their troops to stop dying.
I would just like to say I liked the long stalemates of 1.04 (and even 2.0 sometimes) to the usual quick and decisive battles of 3.0.
3.0 is fun, and I love it, but 1.04 had a certain romance to it that is not really present anymore. I liked when the rines actually tried rushing your hive with LMG/shotty marines that aren't fuly upgraded, and skulk+gorge rushes. Now it's camp till HA or camp till Onos.
I especially loved the 2.0 gorges and fade's. Gorges are weak piles of goo now compared to before. They die so easily it just sucks. I loved gorge gangs. I also liked gorges getting a double share of res.
Marines almost always win these days. Like if the teams are bad, maybe its a 50/50 chance, if they are both moderately good its like 75% chance the marines are gona win, and if both teams are really good then theres absolutely no chance the aliens are gona win, because it just does not matter what they do the marines are gona be everywhere and set up like 50 electrified bases everywhere and all their res nodes are electrified and what the hell are you gona do? charge at them and get shot up and give them 2 resources?
God But I still only play aliens because I would feel like an **** if i used the "exploit" that is the marine team.
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Feb 6 2004, 01:21 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Feb 6 2004, 01:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I have no clue of what any of you guys speak. For me, 1.04 had zero memorable moments, except for the hovering marine who shot your hive to death with an HMG clip. Now that's fun! Oh yeah.
On the other hand, things I can remember fondly about 2.01:
- Silence skulks getting right up on their prey - Going as a fade an wiping out an entire team - Going as a shotgunner and killing half a team - Gorge gangs - Lerk rushes - Shotty rushes - No more hive lockdowns - Clan play is so much better - Saving for onos - Fighting off hordes and hordes of skulks during a seige - Medspamming my marines - Coordinating perfect skulk ambushes - My first sensory experiences
And lots of other things, but I really don't feel like receiting them now.
Point is, 2.00 had a ton of memorable experiences, you guys are making up false realities of 'good ole times' when they just didn't exist. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Half of these wouldnt be memorable moments. A lerk rush, med spamming marines, shotty rush, saving for onos, "clan play so much better" (not even a memorable moment!) "no more hive lockdowns" (not a memorable moment) silence skulks going fade and having a shotgun. Those arent memorable moments...
We're talking about the long epic battles where each side is pushing constantly, but no one can really get in for the win. They each control half the map, not the turret farming you can see now in 2.01.
But on silence (because I can see somone posting about it). Silence skulks preformed the same in 1.04 as they do in 2.01. The silenced attack doesnt really give you an advantage, because the sound of the hit of the attack still plays. Silencing the attack was just something that appeared to the public, and thats why I believe its used more often now.
Don't remember who said it, but I totally agree with whoever was wondering what everyone was smoking. Reading this thread has left me in bewilderment from the ideas pitched to the reminiscing of "good times." I'm not going to say that the consecutive releases since 1.04 have been perfect, far from it in fact. Each release addressed things that, until they were fixed, I didn't realize were that bad. I'll cite some examples for this:
From 1.04 to 2.x -----
Easily the biggest equalizer here, speaking as a competent marine commander and alien of all forms, was the electrification of turret factories and resource towers. People that think back about how aliens could take down resource towers singlehandedly as a mere skulk need to realize how utterly unbalanced it was for the marines to keep any income. For any that advocate turrets at a node for defense, just think about how much time is lost between electrifying a resource tower versus placing a bare minimum of 3 more structures. The time taken to build those extra structures is all the aliens need to either a) capture the node for themselves or b) be well on their way to capture every single other resource node on the map. In 1.04 days, we saw way too much of the aliens owning the entire map versus the marines barely keeping their single starting node. Electrification also gave the marines a good counter (when done properly) to the alien rush. It nearly eliminates the possibility for the too-short-game-syndrome that everyone here seems to be complaining about. Some of you may not like the cramped base style of 2.0 and .01, and I sympathize with some of you on it only when it is not done properly. A good commander knows how to clump his buildings in an efficient and organized manner that is no way a hindrance to his team. In closing on this issue, it was the first major step to giving the marines a fair chance at a fair game without major drawbacks to the aliens.
Resources for killing (RFK). This can also be an equalizer, and it's not just for marines or aliens. It's for both sides. After 2.0 was released, I realized quickly that if you can eliminate the enemy team's sole resource tower before they put any more down, you've effectively guaranteed yourself a win or at least a hefty advantage. To combat this, if on the off chance it did happen to me, resources for kills gives my team the chance to rectify their stupidity for letting our only source of steady income get destroyed. In addition to the second wind chance, this feature rightly awards those that are talented enough to get kills. Whether it be the skilled marine with steady aim that will benefit his team with upgrades or the sneaky skulk that zips in and out to get enough resources for a new hive/upgrade/resource tower, this feature allows players that are good enough to be rewarded. I shouldn't need to even point this out to some of you, but I felt the need to since people were dumping on it and none seemed to defend its actual merit.
No hive restrictions. I'm not just a marine after all, I'm quite the competent alien. Having a hive lockdowned in 1.04 was infuriating because not only were you denied a last upgrade (granted not always crucial), but you were also denied a final lifeform and ability which could make the difference in any game. Some of you might say "Well, if the marines lockdown a hive, they should be able to benefit from not having to face an onos" or something to that effect. On some level, I semi-agree with that. If the aforementioned changes were not implemented, then I probably would go along with it even. But since the marines were complemented with their electrification and "RFK" (not to mention the well known adjusted costs and research times of new technology, we don't need to go into that since everyone knows the benefits), it made sense that the aliens were not left alone with their 1.04 restrictions. They needed a boost too, and that boost came with no longer restricting lifeform classes to hive numbers. Key abilities can still be denied with a hive lockdown, but the aliens still have a fighting chance to break down the marines' grip on the map when they are not limited to simple skulks or lerks or even fades. It's a good balancing act.
New alien upgrade features. The biggest and most visible new upgrade was obviously the sensory chamber's cloaking of surrounding structures and allies. That in combination with the tweak to cloaking (2.01 anyway) gave the aliens a more useful upgrade, even if it ended up being the third one to get. Movement chambers giving back energy to nearby allies was also a helpful boost, albeit not as helpful. Most of the time, it was used to allow fades or gorges or even lerks to range attack a distant structure or enemy group. There isn't much to say here, we all know the boons the aliens got.
Hindrances to both sides. If I had to vote for a marine hindrance in this version, it would have been the hive lockdown strategy. Now marines had to rely more than ever on their cohesion to win the game, which is the way it should be. For the aliens, I vote that the onos was slightly taken down a notch from the previous version. This was to make up for it being now available to anyone now. In addition, the switching of abilities for the fade (acid rocket to third hive) was a severe hindrance to the aliens, one that I believe was not called for.
From 2.x to 3.x
-----
Biggest boon here, to me anyway, has to go to the marines. However, it still revolves around electrification. In my opinion, the range is a little too far now. However beneficial to the marines it is, it does not balance out against the aliens' restrictions (which I will touch on later). Slightly below the electrification is the aliens' new upgrade "Focus." Replacing the never-used "Pheromones" was the best thing the aliens got, hands down. Quite the equalizer in close quarters combat for the skulk, it allows those with good aim and sense of direction to get rewarded for braving the often great distances they must overcome due to the superior range capability of the marines.
Now, here is where I start to have problems with 3.x and believe me, I think these problems are well-established. In general, the game was remade to totally benefit marines over aliens. It is essentially a total reversal from 1.04 days where now the aliens are the weak team against the big bad marines. To start off with, the aliens were severely hampered with the total (at best, near-total) exclusion of all range capability. Spikes for the lerk gave the aliens an expensive but necessary counter to range superiority of the marines. Now nearly everything the aliens fight with is based off of melee attacks, and well, come on. Any competent marine team, public server or clanned, is not going to let the aliens get close to them. The only real range weapon they have left is the lerk spore and the fade acid rocket. The acid rocket being a fourth ability (Combat, third hive in classic of course) is already too late in the game to be of much use, not to mention its severe lack of impact once it does make an appearance. Damage and splash is next to nil now. Basically the aliens are totally melee now versus a nearly total ranged enemy. There has to be some balance here. Even in its 2.x incarnation, the aliens stood a slight chance at ranged combat.
Hitboxes on the aliens. I have played as an alien onos probably a grand total of two times since 3.x was released. The class simply is not worth it anymore. By the time you can get that lifeform from resources or points (Combat) in any skill balanced game (meaning teams of nearly equal talent), you're facing heavy weaponry and high technology. That combined with the fact you can shoot near an onos and still shred it means you're basically dead before you can even get close enough to do your damage. While not a hitbox issue really (or maybe it is), the previous sentence leads me into another horrible imbalance. The gore for onos is horribly off. I've heard it said that the range is super low now, but in my personal experience, it's more like super narrow. In previous versions, you had a comfortable field in front of you as onos that allowed you to hit an enemy and score damage. Now in 3.x, you have to be dead center it seems to score anything. I believe this is a huge imbalance to the superior alien lifeform, which has been called in the past, "tank." The onos is little more than an oversized expensive bullet catcher now, despite its new beta 2 stats.
Alien abilities. I touched on the lack of range weapons for aliens already, and I just made reference to the onos gore being supremely inferior. However, what I now mention is undoubtedly a boon for the aliens, but an unjust one. The devour ability for an onos is insanely wrong now. If you think about it, if anything, the gore and devour capabilities should be reversed. Gore should have its wider range to hit with while devour should be something up close, personal, and dead on to hit with. This is maybe the one thing that allows an onos a chance now. By no means is it a good chance, as it is 1) imbalanced and 2) still impractical given the limitations of the lifeform itself.
Alien stats. This also shows how the game is being geared towards marines and not towards balance. Just about every class had its health and armor lowered, in addition to their inability to inflict damage. The only times this is not evident is with the newly powered fade (which is still underpowered to me) and the onos (already covered the near uselessness of the extra points on the onos). Honestly, I cannot exactly remember a lerk's previous stats, but if anything, it was boosted only slightly, and it was still made into a melee lifeform.
Marine hindrance. Honestly, there's not much to hinder marines in the newer version of the game. The closest thing that comes to a hindrance is the new spacing restrictions. This does make marines space out their bases more; while it can be annoying to some of us that liked our bases compact and easy to manage, it's in no way a big deal. Another "hindrance" is the new welder. I can hardly call this a hindrance in comparison to what the aliens have to deal with though. A reduction in general armor is also there, but it's hardly an issue; if you do get bit, you still lose roughly the same amount of life to where you still fall in roughly the same amount of time.
-----
In no way is this complete, it's just what I could come up with over two highly interrupted hours while at work. I think it states the imbalances that the version still has as well as the previous corrections that were fixed in earlier versions quite well though. In addition, I am no game developer or coder. I have no clue how all this works or even how to fix it. I just play the game, and I play it well. The only other thing I can currently remember I wanted to touch on is how people were longing for the days of 2 hour long games. I'm sorry, but I come from a time of clanned activity where 30 minute games were the norm. We were not open to playing 2 hours to reach a conclusion. The longing for 1.04 drawn out games is insane to me. Some of you may like it for its comeback possibilities. Me, I think that if you're going to mount a comeback, you should not have to wait a couple of hours just to build up enough to do so. That's too much. Game lengths nowadays are pretty much on the money. If one doesn't like public games that are pretty much decided within the first three minutes, then don't play there. Play somewhere that has consistently evenly matched teams, where you have to work for your win. I agree that most games are decided in the early minutes nowadays, especially when I am commander or lead skulk. That doesn't mean I long to go back to the days when I had to play through primetime tv programming just to see a game concluded.
Any spelling or grammatical or even continuity errors are to be expected since I had to stop typing this approximately 50 million times over the past two hours.
a_civilianLikes seeing numbersJoin Date: 2003-01-08Member: 12041Members, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead
edited February 2004
<!--QuoteBegin-a civilian+Feb 6 2004, 02:21 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (a civilian @ Feb 6 2004, 02:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I was about to explain why the 1.04 hive restrictions were bad, when in listing one of the reasons I stumbled upon what seems to me to be the reason so many liked them. They greatly reduced the need for map control. They effectively reduced the entire map to a mere three locations; and when the marines controlled one and the aliens controlled two, the two teams were equal in power. And, because there were only three, it was easy for a team to defend them. This led to stalemates. However, because of the nature of the units, abilities, and weapons prevalent in these stalemates, this being the number of different ways that they could be used, these stalemates contained many memorable moments, and were very enjoyable.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> To add to this post, the emphasis on just three locations also meant comebacks were more easy to accomplish. This is because a team needed only to take one location to effectively make a comeback.
I believe, however, that while the hive restrictions did create many fun and memorable games, they also greatly reduced the strategic aspect of the game. The reduction of the map to just three locations and the consolidation of alien tech into a single branch both meant far fewer strategic possibilities.
In closing, whether one considers the hive restrictions to be conducive to gameplay depends mostly on what one expects from this game; on whether one expects simple fun, or expects much strategy as well.
[off topic] I am actually posting more then once in one topic [/off topic]
Oddly enough I must re-itterate that the long epic games were only in public play. I do believe the clan play ( I do not know for sure for I was not in a clan for 1.04) was still shorter, far shorter then the public play. As for the hive restrictions. Those were fun, but then that was when fades were actually good verus HA and not complete meat (referring to 2.01 fade not 3.0 as I have not yet played it). Onos as previously stated by those who have 3.0 experience seem to be large bullet catchers. If they say they are, they probably are. Other then that, I would like to see the electricity range reduced to 2.01 levels or maybe just a stitch above it. It looks too far from what I have seen in various screen shots. Again, just my two cents.
hmmmm wow i hate to be the oddball but I think classic games are too long... I think one team does gain a certain advantage in the beginning but I don't think that is the deciding factor.... within 5 minutes you must adjust your strategy accordingly... Like if you do a mass rush with everyone but one and it fails miserably you know they will try to rush out and attempt to set up a PG very very nearby your hive so they can attack swiftly in groups and eventually kill you... In this situation you know they won't have a lot of tech. For the aliens it would simply involve OCs and I would choose SCs so that you can all hide and then scare the **** out of the attackers.... That's my style of play though, ninja attacks <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
However, if the supposed disadvantaged team somehow evens it out the mid-game is very very long.... A few little things here and there but nothing major
the 1.04 games were great because there were exciting beginning and end games and the mid games were just pure action with "OKay 3 rines heading over to cargo to set up base, let's ambush" but now it's like mollasses to me with rines and their turret farms and just killing anything and don't go for the hive until they have super high-tech stuff like HA and JP with high level AMR and WEP with a good gun.... no more 4 rines w/ LMGs attacking hive while you only have 1 skulk and a gorge deciding the fate of your whole team....
Classic now is more local base-building and inching closer..
Metaphor time: Okay 3.0 to me is like two boxers just keep hitting each other in the arms. Sure it may hurt a little but it doesnt do much at first. It just keeps going and going and going. Then finally one boxer finally feels the pain. Maybe they will throw one good punch at the other side and they feel at and then we go back to the punching arms thing.
In 1.04 and 2.0 it was more like boxers hitting each other in the face.. .hardcore boxing... intense and on the edge of your seat you know
In 2.0 we were promised short games. 20 mins to be exact. Now that was PERFECT for me. Short games where everything matters. If you fail at taking at an RT it could decide your fate... This it may just make your death come a bit quicker than an hour later <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I do think 3.0 is one of the best NS builds around. I just want to get back to those short 1.0x 2.0 games <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->.
Well, I honestly would like games to Be longer, But Too short isn't that bad in some cases! <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
and Spit Fire, you work your magic <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
i think that NS 3.0 has its little glitchies and flaws and such... but i think its very good. of course i think NS Classic is better. but NSCO is also alot of fun, in the right servers. each mode has its own perks. CO is faster, more ferious. NS is more strategic, more tactical and cooperative.
thanks thats all <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
and Spit Fire, you work your magic <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
i think that NS 3.0 has its little glitchies and flaws and such... but i think its very good. of course i think NS Classic is better. but NSCO is also alot of fun, in the right servers. each mode has its own perks. CO is faster, more ferious. NS is more strategic, more tactical and cooperative.
thanks thats all <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> think of i didnt go inactive for those 6 months rofl but thx Maxx <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo--> <== isnt that an odd wink?
i woulda get vet status and all but o wellz schooling is more importnant to me
yes NS is all those things but the main thing that i don't see is teamwork.. maybe that is what is slowing these games down.... i'll do some more scrimming in my clan <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> gotta do research
I would like to see longer games. But I think if hive restriction was brought back, it would have to be 2 hives for Onos. There was nothing more infuriating in 1.04 than when the rines relocated to a hive. It was a small gamble to pay for such a decisive victory - often the hives favoured the marines for fighting more than the aliens, and there was now no way to go Onos and break through the base.
I really miss the comebacks though. I remember playing one game as aliens where everyone died bar one gorge. We still had some RTs up though, and being all alone he was getting tons of res. He put up the 2 unguarded hives by himself as a gorge. We managed to clear out the hive lockdown since it was a new and incomplete base, 3rd hive, Onos, and we won.
Same situation now: No hives so PoD anyway. That aside, there will be HA/HMGs romping around everywhere because they're cheap enough to give them to everyone. Remember when the comm would HA all his marines, they'd get killed and he would only have res to re-equip half of them instead of all?
And sneaking through vents as a marine to try to bypass the alien defenses and sneak into a hive to take it down.
There's none of that any more - if you aim to be on top of the other team after 15 minutes then you will have lost after 12.
woah... thats a good summary right there i agree with you it feels like some of the actual strategy is lost... hopefully it will be fixed in a patch <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
A few things I'd like to say after reviewing the thread again:
First, stop with the "blame it on the vets" approach. That's so full of it I don't even know where to start. If you want to "balance it for pubs", you're going to end up with a game that'll be broken in 2 weeks, max, when everyone realizes where just enough teamwork is required for this or that, or enough individual skill to pull some trick, etc... By balancing it for high level competitive play, with an eye for pub play as well, you are essentially creating a ceiling point where the game is more or less balanced, but which will never be reached, thus allowing the game to <i>balance itself</i> as players improve. Because they will, proven in 1.0x with the constant, fluctuating, rapidly changing tactics (from sieges to jetpack rush, HMM). And the present day, when players are suddenly so good with shotties, jumppacks, gls, etc... Things which only a handful of players could claim such skill with before. Players improve, and if you don't balance for the best, they'll simply improve to the point where your balance falls apart.
In case you don't realize it, average teamwork is actually much higher now (minus players only seeing Combat, and then messing up Classic). Marines move out, secure res nodes, cover each other while building, whereas, on an average pub in the 1.04 days (minus wonderful places like Nano Gridlock and CofR, which were NOT average, something I must say NOW), you had either marines ramboing, or camping 2 res nodes and waiting for jetpacks. When they got jetpacks, they all flew around randomly. Gorges died frequently from lack of skulk protection, even though that was <i>such a basic part of the game</i>, aliens often blocked each others' retreats (though infrequent onos made it less of an issue), aliens would go lerk instead of saving for overflow, etc...
The issue, as I see it, is not the LENGTH of games (this is more or less a summary). It's that these long games are not remotely interesting, most of the time, because they were earlier decided. More often than not, they consist of aliens unable to batter down Marine Start. Sometimes marines who are unable to work together enough to end it, and thus leave the aliens on the losing side of a "heavies everywhere, none attacking" game. And, even normal games are often decided very early, with little room for comebacks short of a major mistake or change (example, the commander switching teams and leaving his team in a lurch when they stacked and refused to even).
Sure, these are issues. It's hard to say they're not. We'd like to have many short games (or, I think most of us would), and the occasional (but not too infrequent) long, but exciting game... Not what we have now, which is, on most pubs, frequent, long, drawn out games decided 5 minutes in (when electrified res towers start churning out the fun), with occasional short games, and a very rare epic, memorable game.
I've made my suggestions on how to fix it, but I doubt they're the real monty. That's up to the genius of Flayra to decide. I just hope I've managed to summarize the <i>real</i> opinions at the heart of it all (versus those embedded in mixed rhetoric). If not, feel free to continue arguing, but I think, if we fix this, the complaints will die down a lot (minus the occasional "we need a scorpion that hovars without flapping!!!1")
I also enjoyed the long games of NS back in 1.0 days. When I read that they were going to try and make the games shorter, I was shocked. I thought that the long games were what made this game so fun. I don't have any input on what should be done now and I'm not saying I liked everything about 1.0-1.04, but I did like the long games and was sad to see them go.
As with discussions on Electricity sucking.. Im sure everyone realises the range on it in NS3 is pathetically long. How about keeping electricity as it is, but only hurting someone when they actually bite it.. That way you can walk past it all you want, it stops marines from hiding next to it, and makes base defending with Elect null'n'void.
Im sure that would fix a few of the annoyances with the elec.. and hey, it would also make killing them better.. cause atm, you get a few bites in (with skulk) and have to run away cause you get zapped again as you run away.
<!--QuoteBegin-iopred+Feb 7 2004, 01:24 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (iopred @ Feb 7 2004, 01:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> As with discussions on Electricity sucking.. Im sure everyone realises the range on it in NS3 is pathetically long. How about keeping electricity as it is, but only hurting someone when they actually bite it.. That way you can walk past it all you want, it stops marines from hiding next to it, and makes base defending with Elect null'n'void.
Im sure that would fix a few of the annoyances with the elec.. and hey, it would also make killing them better.. cause atm, you get a few bites in (with skulk) and have to run away cause you get zapped again as you run away. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I suggested that idea <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=61188' target='_blank'>here</a> in I&S. If people like the idea, feel free to revive that topic (I didn't bother because I wasn't sure that the idea had enough support).
It's a bit too short. The mother of all matches, for me at least was in 1.04 . Lasted almost about 2h:30min to be precise but the server crashed <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->. That wasn't even an stalemate event, just some mad fighting over hives.
Normally games in 2.0-3.0 seems to last less than hour, 30min+. It's even shorter than the combat mode sometimes maybe it's due to RFK .. but i wouldn't mind playing longer games & epic battles once again <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->.
Comments
There is really little real difference between 2.01 and 3.0b2, biggest are- fixed hitboxes, cheaper onos, fixed MT, mines and umbra..
Everything else is almost same, HA don't cost more or need less time, still 3 minute for armory upgrady and 1:40 for HA ugprade..
Don't fool yourself, aliens are strong enough and i wittnessed many games where they won from really bad looking situation even if it took 30-40 minutes..
Hell they even keep winning on 24ppl servers regurally!
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When 1.1 was ment to come out they delayed it ( no suprizes there ) but the people who tested it gave feedback on how the game is wernt given by there own admission enuff time to test it. and huge unbalanced issues aroused imadently also bugs w00t 5 patchs in a month or 2.
Id like to focus on the unbalanced issue, for balance team skill has to be very high.
The reson for this is when they say ohh lerk need to be changed improved .. how skilled with lerk are those playtesters this goes for any class
i think the reason the gameplay has been lost is lack of playtesters ablity to play the game,PERSONAL SKILL LEVELS at the time of 1.03/1.04 were very low compared to todays standards. for ns to takea step forward i think we have to take a step backwards in playtesting or view it from this angle.
There idea of balance has converted into basicaly , The team with the higest skilled player ( yes just 1 good player ) determains the way the games gona go only exception to this rule is exelant team play buy the oposing team ( makeing sure they home in and as a groupe always attack that player in the groupe and this is asking far to mutch forpublic players or the good player has a bad round. 95% of the games i personal join go may teams way. I know the games not finished and it prolly will never be perfectly balanced this is why i thik NS has to be split into a 3rd catorgry so far we have 3.0 , combat , and i proposeing NS leauge version makeing the game difrent from public play that needs unbalance on both sides to bring the game to a close. A mutch more harder game takeing the abality for 1 person to sway the games closure away and makeing it very very team play dependant. If you think you have done this in 3.0 LOL@YOU i dont personaly know how you as game dev's wish the game to go but im tell you strait up you will never have a version of the game that is going to be fair for both public and clan play due to the huge skill level diffrence and advantages that clan play has.
Others will always think diffrently and im prolly wasteing my time at this stage of the ns comunaty's hopefully long life. i just have to voice this opinion mabie if you dont understand woot im saying now you will either when you wake up smell the coffie :E or you get genrally better at the game.
If you dont under stand woot im saying dont view this as a "flame" <-- general catorgy that any new or radical changes/arguable improvements get classed under by the adoring hords or ns fans.
i dont think im "1337" just would like to game to be made harder atm its just n00b rape.
n00b rape = short games. your not gona get the extreamly long games that were common 1.03/1.04 because people have got more skilled and are more effective at bringing the game to a close but then hopefully were not going to get the other extream of the 4 min jp 1.04 rush game over man game over ! i stand with my prev statment we need a version for high skilled clan play and a version for the rest to think is "fair" with the release of combat people should get better faster time will tell how this ones goes for all i know they dont give a **** about high standard play and just want to please the masses time will only tell.
If the skulks actually went to defend an RT under attack, or the gorge helped skulks take down an eleccy RT, then they would get somewhere <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Just give it time for ppl to settle into 3.0...
If one team really outskills the other, then the game <b>should end really damn fast!</b>
Equal teams will still have longer games (20 min++) in 2.01.
gorges never starved. If they did the team was seriously losing. And it was ended fast.
Also rushes were less common. Now when I, as permagorge, am happily building RTs and upgrades I suddenly am in the RR cause again. the match ended. within 5 minutes.
Useless to say, that if we let the other team live they never recover. Same with rines. If or gorges get ambushed we never recover from the loss. This ends in large F4 parties. Atleast in the old days there WAS a comeback chance.
Why bother giving rfk for kills? I never liked it. if you need it to gain res, you are low on RTs anywayz and LOSING. This only enables turtling rines to be able to get more res while we try to hit a base. Sure turtling has been nerfed. But right about now its with all things.
gorges + res were changed cause:
noobies were onos saving res
to many gorges nerfed the system.
easy fix I'd say. Make the gorges more like a rines comm. make a max number of gorges. (2, 3 at most) And maybe a way to force a gorge to evolve to skulk when the gorge is stupid.
2 or 3 gorges so we still can have teamups and new ppl still can teamup with old gorges to learn. 2, lateron 3 gorges never hurt the system. It was within res limits.
I say I am very willing to see the old longer matches again. Especially cause the latest matches are usually over before the gorges had the fun of actually playing themselves.
And no, unlike alot of ppl say, I still do not believe a team without permagorges has a good survival chance.
If one team really outskills the other, then the game <b>should end really damn fast!</b>
Equal teams will still have longer games (20 min++) in 2.01. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
OMG!!! DONT BLIND US!!!
Heres an alternative to electrify:
1 Turret factory allowing you to place turrets anywhere, thus allowing you to get rid of electrify completely without the marines feeling like they got nothing. because if you really think about it, if you have one factory you should be able to make as many as you want, because the aliens dont have to have a offense chamber factory do they? well, thats just my opinion.
<!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='turret.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' /><!--endemo-->
My only real gripe with this is that in the long games, either the marines are just delaying the inevitable by turtling in their base and nade spamming, or the aliens are basically screwed because once the marines have finished teching up to 3/3, all of their res buys heavy weapons. 1.04 had good points but I like the current system much better... however there's a progression where in the early game, aliens have the advantage, mid game, it's pretty even (this is where the fun is I think, the desperate PG/siege station going up, and the intense battle with all of both teams battling for it), but in late game marines have the upper hand. I'm not sure if this is on purpose or not.
The new onos price helps this a lot though, as it gives aliens a better chance at getting 3 hives as turret farms are not as big of a deal. Overall I'm very happy with 3.0. Thanks Flayra & team for all your hard work!!! <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
You think a 20 minute game constitutes a long game?
Many of us who refer to "epic" games are those that lasted 90 minutes or more... and 90 minutes is really a pretty low estimate. I didn't really find as much enjoyment in games unless they generally lasted at least two hours. Those games let you experience at some level a sense of brotherhood, comeraderie, and trust on top of teamwork. This is of course on pub servers (ie. where the majority of all NS players play). Playing with your clan really makes that argument a moot point. Regardless of where imbalances might have existed in the game, the fun was more in being a part of your team than winning.
Oh I forgot... You think that if you're not playing to win then you might as well not play at all <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Just as a side note... I noticed your previous post regarding some of the things you find memorable about post 1.04 builds and could only come to the conclusion that you are much in favor to the existence of god-like rambos running around the map. Rambo's are quite simply the absolute antitheses to squad-based teamwork on which the game is hinged. It seems to me like the only things that make the game memorable to you (ie. individualism and personal skill) are those that are out of spirit with the game's baseline focus. (ie. teamwork and strategy)
I'll stop picking on you now Forlorn. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Moving on... I find that my desire for fast paced action is completely fulfilled by playing a quick game of NS:Combat. I'd really like to see NS:Classic branch away from the faster pace that has been incrementally placed upon it. I have one thing to suggest that might help to a small degree to balance things out slightly and leave in all the things that have been argued about (such as electrify, paper-like higher lifeforms).
Here goes.
For every latent upgrade given to marines it raises the cost of respawn by 1 res. Vanilla marines cost 0 res to spawn so this doesn't effect the early game any. Once upgrades in armor, weapons, and motion-tracking are researched the price of respawn is effectively raised. This is somewhat akin to relating your new recruits (fresh spawn) to seasoned marines as opposed to fresh meat. Once all latent upgrades are researched spawning costs a maximum of 7 res. Let's examine some of the ramifications of this.
One of the biggest things I see is that the life of a marine will be more valuable later in the game and enforce teamwork (ie. watching eachother's backs). Dying during the lategame for the marines costs the team and thus is greatly discouraged. On top of this, it will greatly quicken the final throes of marine defence when it comes down to sieging the 'rine base at the absolute end of the game (not entirely sure I like this aspect as marine base sieges are usually pretty fun). This being due to the fact that during the endgame 'rines lose their res VERY quickly (no nodes) and since respawning costs res it will go even faster not to mention preventing respawn all together until there is enough res to use.
Its easily arguable that a max respawn penalty of 7 res is way too much... i concede this, but the idea of upgrades effecting future respawn cost might want to be looked at.
EDIT: spelling
3.0 is fun, and I love it, but 1.04 had a certain romance to it that is not really present anymore. I liked when the rines actually tried rushing your hive with LMG/shotty marines that aren't fuly upgraded, and skulk+gorge rushes. Now it's camp till HA or camp till Onos.
I especially loved the 2.0 gorges and fade's. Gorges are weak piles of goo now compared to before. They die so easily it just sucks. I loved gorge gangs. I also liked gorges getting a double share of res.
Like if the teams are bad, maybe its a 50/50 chance, if they are both moderately good its like 75% chance the marines are gona win, and if both teams are really good then theres absolutely no chance the aliens are gona win, because it just does not matter what they do the marines are gona be everywhere and set up like 50 electrified bases everywhere and all their res nodes are electrified and what the hell are you gona do? charge at them and get shot up and give them 2 resources?
God
But I still only play aliens because I would feel like an **** if i used the "exploit" that is the marine team.
On the other hand, things I can remember fondly about 2.01:
- Silence skulks getting right up on their prey
- Going as a fade an wiping out an entire team
- Going as a shotgunner and killing half a team
- Gorge gangs
- Lerk rushes
- Shotty rushes
- No more hive lockdowns
- Clan play is so much better
- Saving for onos
- Fighting off hordes and hordes of skulks during a seige
- Medspamming my marines
- Coordinating perfect skulk ambushes
- My first sensory experiences
And lots of other things, but I really don't feel like receiting them now.
Point is, 2.00 had a ton of memorable experiences, you guys are making up false realities of 'good ole times' when they just didn't exist. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Half of these wouldnt be memorable moments. A lerk rush, med spamming marines, shotty rush, saving for onos, "clan play so much better" (not even a memorable moment!) "no more hive lockdowns" (not a memorable moment) silence skulks going fade and having a shotgun. Those arent memorable moments...
We're talking about the long epic battles where each side is pushing constantly, but no one can really get in for the win. They each control half the map, not the turret farming you can see now in 2.01.
But on silence (because I can see somone posting about it). Silence skulks preformed the same in 1.04 as they do in 2.01. The silenced attack doesnt really give you an advantage, because the sound of the hit of the attack still plays. Silencing the attack was just something that appeared to the public, and thats why I believe its used more often now.
From 1.04 to 2.x
-----
Easily the biggest equalizer here, speaking as a competent marine commander and alien of all forms, was the electrification of turret factories and resource towers. People that think back about how aliens could take down resource towers singlehandedly as a mere skulk need to realize how utterly unbalanced it was for the marines to keep any income. For any that advocate turrets at a node for defense, just think about how much time is lost between electrifying a resource tower versus placing a bare minimum of 3 more structures. The time taken to build those extra structures is all the aliens need to either a) capture the node for themselves or b) be well on their way to capture every single other resource node on the map. In 1.04 days, we saw way too much of the aliens owning the entire map versus the marines barely keeping their single starting node. Electrification also gave the marines a good counter (when done properly) to the alien rush. It nearly eliminates the possibility for the too-short-game-syndrome that everyone here seems to be complaining about. Some of you may not like the cramped base style of 2.0 and .01, and I sympathize with some of you on it only when it is not done properly. A good commander knows how to clump his buildings in an efficient and organized manner that is no way a hindrance to his team. In closing on this issue, it was the first major step to giving the marines a fair chance at a fair game without major drawbacks to the aliens.
Resources for killing (RFK). This can also be an equalizer, and it's not just for marines or aliens. It's for both sides. After 2.0 was released, I realized quickly that if you can eliminate the enemy team's sole resource tower before they put any more down, you've effectively guaranteed yourself a win or at least a hefty advantage. To combat this, if on the off chance it did happen to me, resources for kills gives my team the chance to rectify their stupidity for letting our only source of steady income get destroyed. In addition to the second wind chance, this feature rightly awards those that are talented enough to get kills. Whether it be the skilled marine with steady aim that will benefit his team with upgrades or the sneaky skulk that zips in and out to get enough resources for a new hive/upgrade/resource tower, this feature allows players that are good enough to be rewarded. I shouldn't need to even point this out to some of you, but I felt the need to since people were dumping on it and none seemed to defend its actual merit.
No hive restrictions. I'm not just a marine after all, I'm quite the competent alien. Having a hive lockdowned in 1.04 was infuriating because not only were you denied a last upgrade (granted not always crucial), but you were also denied a final lifeform and ability which could make the difference in any game. Some of you might say "Well, if the marines lockdown a hive, they should be able to benefit from not having to face an onos" or something to that effect. On some level, I semi-agree with that. If the aforementioned changes were not implemented, then I probably would go along with it even. But since the marines were complemented with their electrification and "RFK" (not to mention the well known adjusted costs and research times of new technology, we don't need to go into that since everyone knows the benefits), it made sense that the aliens were not left alone with their 1.04 restrictions. They needed a boost too, and that boost came with no longer restricting lifeform classes to hive numbers. Key abilities can still be denied with a hive lockdown, but the aliens still have a fighting chance to break down the marines' grip on the map when they are not limited to simple skulks or lerks or even fades. It's a good balancing act.
New alien upgrade features. The biggest and most visible new upgrade was obviously the sensory chamber's cloaking of surrounding structures and allies. That in combination with the tweak to cloaking (2.01 anyway) gave the aliens a more useful upgrade, even if it ended up being the third one to get. Movement chambers giving back energy to nearby allies was also a helpful boost, albeit not as helpful. Most of the time, it was used to allow fades or gorges or even lerks to range attack a distant structure or enemy group. There isn't much to say here, we all know the boons the aliens got.
Hindrances to both sides. If I had to vote for a marine hindrance in this version, it would have been the hive lockdown strategy. Now marines had to rely more than ever on their cohesion to win the game, which is the way it should be. For the aliens, I vote that the onos was slightly taken down a notch from the previous version. This was to make up for it being now available to anyone now. In addition, the switching of abilities for the fade (acid rocket to third hive) was a severe hindrance to the aliens, one that I believe was not called for.
From 2.x to 3.x
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Biggest boon here, to me anyway, has to go to the marines. However, it still revolves around electrification. In my opinion, the range is a little too far now. However beneficial to the marines it is, it does not balance out against the aliens' restrictions (which I will touch on later). Slightly below the electrification is the aliens' new upgrade "Focus." Replacing the never-used "Pheromones" was the best thing the aliens got, hands down. Quite the equalizer in close quarters combat for the skulk, it allows those with good aim and sense of direction to get rewarded for braving the often great distances they must overcome due to the superior range capability of the marines.
Now, here is where I start to have problems with 3.x and believe me, I think these problems are well-established. In general, the game was remade to totally benefit marines over aliens. It is essentially a total reversal from 1.04 days where now the aliens are the weak team against the big bad marines. To start off with, the aliens were severely hampered with the total (at best, near-total) exclusion of all range capability. Spikes for the lerk gave the aliens an expensive but necessary counter to range superiority of the marines. Now nearly everything the aliens fight with is based off of melee attacks, and well, come on. Any competent marine team, public server or clanned, is not going to let the aliens get close to them. The only real range weapon they have left is the lerk spore and the fade acid rocket. The acid rocket being a fourth ability (Combat, third hive in classic of course) is already too late in the game to be of much use, not to mention its severe lack of impact once it does make an appearance. Damage and splash is next to nil now. Basically the aliens are totally melee now versus a nearly total ranged enemy. There has to be some balance here. Even in its 2.x incarnation, the aliens stood a slight chance at ranged combat.
Hitboxes on the aliens. I have played as an alien onos probably a grand total of two times since 3.x was released. The class simply is not worth it anymore. By the time you can get that lifeform from resources or points (Combat) in any skill balanced game (meaning teams of nearly equal talent), you're facing heavy weaponry and high technology. That combined with the fact you can shoot near an onos and still shred it means you're basically dead before you can even get close enough to do your damage. While not a hitbox issue really (or maybe it is), the previous sentence leads me into another horrible imbalance. The gore for onos is horribly off. I've heard it said that the range is super low now, but in my personal experience, it's more like super narrow. In previous versions, you had a comfortable field in front of you as onos that allowed you to hit an enemy and score damage. Now in 3.x, you have to be dead center it seems to score anything. I believe this is a huge imbalance to the superior alien lifeform, which has been called in the past, "tank." The onos is little more than an oversized expensive bullet catcher now, despite its new beta 2 stats.
Alien abilities. I touched on the lack of range weapons for aliens already, and I just made reference to the onos gore being supremely inferior. However, what I now mention is undoubtedly a boon for the aliens, but an unjust one. The devour ability for an onos is insanely wrong now. If you think about it, if anything, the gore and devour capabilities should be reversed. Gore should have its wider range to hit with while devour should be something up close, personal, and dead on to hit with. This is maybe the one thing that allows an onos a chance now. By no means is it a good chance, as it is 1) imbalanced and 2) still impractical given the limitations of the lifeform itself.
Alien stats. This also shows how the game is being geared towards marines and not towards balance. Just about every class had its health and armor lowered, in addition to their inability to inflict damage. The only times this is not evident is with the newly powered fade (which is still underpowered to me) and the onos (already covered the near uselessness of the extra points on the onos). Honestly, I cannot exactly remember a lerk's previous stats, but if anything, it was boosted only slightly, and it was still made into a melee lifeform.
Marine hindrance. Honestly, there's not much to hinder marines in the newer version of the game. The closest thing that comes to a hindrance is the new spacing restrictions. This does make marines space out their bases more; while it can be annoying to some of us that liked our bases compact and easy to manage, it's in no way a big deal. Another "hindrance" is the new welder. I can hardly call this a hindrance in comparison to what the aliens have to deal with though. A reduction in general armor is also there, but it's hardly an issue; if you do get bit, you still lose roughly the same amount of life to where you still fall in roughly the same amount of time.
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In no way is this complete, it's just what I could come up with over two highly interrupted hours while at work. I think it states the imbalances that the version still has as well as the previous corrections that were fixed in earlier versions quite well though. In addition, I am no game developer or coder. I have no clue how all this works or even how to fix it. I just play the game, and I play it well. The only other thing I can currently remember I wanted to touch on is how people were longing for the days of 2 hour long games. I'm sorry, but I come from a time of clanned activity where 30 minute games were the norm. We were not open to playing 2 hours to reach a conclusion. The longing for 1.04 drawn out games is insane to me. Some of you may like it for its comeback possibilities. Me, I think that if you're going to mount a comeback, you should not have to wait a couple of hours just to build up enough to do so. That's too much. Game lengths nowadays are pretty much on the money. If one doesn't like public games that are pretty much decided within the first three minutes, then don't play there. Play somewhere that has consistently evenly matched teams, where you have to work for your win. I agree that most games are decided in the early minutes nowadays, especially when I am commander or lead skulk. That doesn't mean I long to go back to the days when I had to play through primetime tv programming just to see a game concluded.
Any spelling or grammatical or even continuity errors are to be expected since I had to stop typing this approximately 50 million times over the past two hours.
Cheers.
.
To add to this post, the emphasis on just three locations also meant comebacks were more easy to accomplish. This is because a team needed only to take one location to effectively make a comeback.
I believe, however, that while the hive restrictions did create many fun and memorable games, they also greatly reduced the strategic aspect of the game. The reduction of the map to just three locations and the consolidation of alien tech into a single branch both meant far fewer strategic possibilities.
In closing, whether one considers the hive restrictions to be conducive to gameplay depends mostly on what one expects from this game; on whether one expects simple fun, or expects much strategy as well.
Oddly enough I must re-itterate that the long epic games were only in public play. I do believe the clan play ( I do not know for sure for I was not in a clan for 1.04) was still shorter, far shorter then the public play. As for the hive restrictions. Those were fun, but then that was when fades were actually good verus HA and not complete meat (referring to 2.01 fade not 3.0 as I have not yet played it). Onos as previously stated by those who have 3.0 experience seem to be large bullet catchers. If they say they are, they probably are. Other then that, I would like to see the electricity range reduced to 2.01 levels or maybe just a stitch above it. It looks too far from what I have seen in various screen shots. Again, just my two cents.
However, if the supposed disadvantaged team somehow evens it out the mid-game is very very long.... A few little things here and there but nothing major
the 1.04 games were great because there were exciting beginning and end games and the mid games were just pure action with "OKay 3 rines heading over to cargo to set up base, let's ambush" but now it's like mollasses to me with rines and their turret farms and just killing anything and don't go for the hive until they have super high-tech stuff like HA and JP with high level AMR and WEP with a good gun.... no more 4 rines w/ LMGs attacking hive while you only have 1 skulk and a gorge deciding the fate of your whole team....
Classic now is more local base-building and inching closer..
Metaphor time: Okay 3.0 to me is like two boxers just keep hitting each other in the arms. Sure it may hurt a little but it doesnt do much at first. It just keeps going and going and going. Then finally one boxer finally feels the pain. Maybe they will throw one good punch at the other side and they feel at and then we go back to the punching arms thing.
In 1.04 and 2.0 it was more like boxers hitting each other in the face.. .hardcore boxing... intense and on the edge of your seat you know
In 2.0 we were promised short games. 20 mins to be exact. Now that was PERFECT for me. Short games where everything matters. If you fail at taking at an RT it could decide your fate... This it may just make your death come a bit quicker than an hour later <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I do think 3.0 is one of the best NS builds around. I just want to get back to those short 1.0x 2.0 games <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->.
With <3,
Iced_Eagle
Long-time NS clan player
and Spit Fire, you work your magic <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
i think that NS 3.0 has its little glitchies and flaws and such... but i think its very good.
of course i think NS Classic is better. but NSCO is also alot of fun, in the right servers.
each mode has its own perks.
CO is faster, more ferious.
NS is more strategic, more tactical and cooperative.
thanks thats all <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
and Spit Fire, you work your magic <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
i think that NS 3.0 has its little glitchies and flaws and such... but i think its very good.
of course i think NS Classic is better. but NSCO is also alot of fun, in the right servers.
each mode has its own perks.
CO is faster, more ferious.
NS is more strategic, more tactical and cooperative.
thanks thats all <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> think of i didnt go inactive for those 6 months rofl but thx Maxx <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo--> <== isnt that an odd wink?
i woulda get vet status and all but o wellz schooling is more importnant to me
yes NS is all those things but the main thing that i don't see is teamwork.. maybe that is what is slowing these games down.... i'll do some more scrimming in my clan <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> gotta do research
I really miss the comebacks though. I remember playing one game as aliens where everyone died bar one gorge. We still had some RTs up though, and being all alone he was getting tons of res. He put up the 2 unguarded hives by himself as a gorge. We managed to clear out the hive lockdown since it was a new and incomplete base, 3rd hive, Onos, and we won.
Same situation now: No hives so PoD anyway. That aside, there will be HA/HMGs romping around everywhere because they're cheap enough to give them to everyone. Remember when the comm would HA all his marines, they'd get killed and he would only have res to re-equip half of them instead of all?
And sneaking through vents as a marine to try to bypass the alien defenses and sneak into a hive to take it down.
There's none of that any more - if you aim to be on top of the other team after 15 minutes then you will have lost after 12.
thats a good summary right there
i agree with you
it feels like some of the actual strategy is lost...
hopefully it will be fixed in a patch <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
First, stop with the "blame it on the vets" approach. That's so full of it I don't even know where to start. If you want to "balance it for pubs", you're going to end up with a game that'll be broken in 2 weeks, max, when everyone realizes where just enough teamwork is required for this or that, or enough individual skill to pull some trick, etc... By balancing it for high level competitive play, with an eye for pub play as well, you are essentially creating a ceiling point where the game is more or less balanced, but which will never be reached, thus allowing the game to <i>balance itself</i> as players improve. Because they will, proven in 1.0x with the constant, fluctuating, rapidly changing tactics (from sieges to jetpack rush, HMM). And the present day, when players are suddenly so good with shotties, jumppacks, gls, etc... Things which only a handful of players could claim such skill with before. Players improve, and if you don't balance for the best, they'll simply improve to the point where your balance falls apart.
In case you don't realize it, average teamwork is actually much higher now (minus players only seeing Combat, and then messing up Classic). Marines move out, secure res nodes, cover each other while building, whereas, on an average pub in the 1.04 days (minus wonderful places like Nano Gridlock and CofR, which were NOT average, something I must say NOW), you had either marines ramboing, or camping 2 res nodes and waiting for jetpacks. When they got jetpacks, they all flew around randomly. Gorges died frequently from lack of skulk protection, even though that was <i>such a basic part of the game</i>, aliens often blocked each others' retreats (though infrequent onos made it less of an issue), aliens would go lerk instead of saving for overflow, etc...
The issue, as I see it, is not the LENGTH of games (this is more or less a summary). It's that these long games are not remotely interesting, most of the time, because they were earlier decided. More often than not, they consist of aliens unable to batter down Marine Start. Sometimes marines who are unable to work together enough to end it, and thus leave the aliens on the losing side of a "heavies everywhere, none attacking" game. And, even normal games are often decided very early, with little room for comebacks short of a major mistake or change (example, the commander switching teams and leaving his team in a lurch when they stacked and refused to even).
Sure, these are issues. It's hard to say they're not. We'd like to have many short games (or, I think most of us would), and the occasional (but not too infrequent) long, but exciting game... Not what we have now, which is, on most pubs, frequent, long, drawn out games decided 5 minutes in (when electrified res towers start churning out the fun), with occasional short games, and a very rare epic, memorable game.
I've made my suggestions on how to fix it, but I doubt they're the real monty. That's up to the genius of Flayra to decide. I just hope I've managed to summarize the <i>real</i> opinions at the heart of it all (versus those embedded in mixed rhetoric). If not, feel free to continue arguing, but I think, if we fix this, the complaints will die down a lot (minus the occasional "we need a scorpion that hovars without flapping!!!1")
Im sure that would fix a few of the annoyances with the elec.. and hey, it would also make killing them better.. cause atm, you get a few bites in (with skulk) and have to run away cause you get zapped again as you run away.
Im sure that would fix a few of the annoyances with the elec.. and hey, it would also make killing them better.. cause atm, you get a few bites in (with skulk) and have to run away cause you get zapped again as you run away. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I suggested that idea <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=61188' target='_blank'>here</a> in I&S. If people like the idea, feel free to revive that topic (I didn't bother because I wasn't sure that the idea had enough support).
Normally games in 2.0-3.0 seems to last less than hour, 30min+. It's even shorter than the combat mode sometimes maybe it's due to RFK .. but i wouldn't mind playing longer games & epic battles once again <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->.