Natural-selection: Classic
Haze
O RLY? Join Date: 2003-07-07 Member: 18018Members, Constellation
O RLY? Join Date: 2003-07-07 Member: 18018Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">Is it too short?</div> With the introduction of new weapons, upgrades, gameplay modes, and gameplay tweaks, the orginal NS has changed vastly. Mutlipule bug fixes, new weapons and items, and the new mode "Combat" have made NS even more of a blast to play. But one fact plauges the Classic game...
<b>Its too short.</b>
The orginal purpose of the upgrade of 1.04 to 1.1 (later renamed to 2.0) was to, obviously fix mutlipule bug fixes, and speed up play time into rounds lasting fifteen minutes. Even with the shorter games, the bug fixes seemed to outweigh this "pro" and the game continued to succeed.
But what happened? Soon the occasional thread poped up with the reply that had "I'm bored of NS now" merged into the rest of the post. Natural-Selection had lost that "hook" that it somehow had in v1.04. Dispite the bugs, everyone was attached to the new mod, playing for hours on end without boredem ensuing.
Why? Was it the millions of fixed bugs? No, couldnt be. How about the new skulk wall code, where the skulk now aligned itself correctally with the wall? Well that cant upset somone... Could the game possibly be <i>too short?</i> Perhaps the NS team took a wrong turn aiming for smaller games with the same "memorable moments" blended in?
There are no memorable moments in NS that I have from 2.0/3.0. Ive spent more than 3/4 more time playing 2.0 and 3.0 than 1.04/1.03, but I still have more memorable moments from 1.04. Why? Because there is more time for things to happen!
There is no time for a commander or his troops to get settled into a game, its started and over in a flash. Whatever team that wins is usually the team that can get their build order up faster than the other. All the commander has to do is secure res and upgrade to 3/3 and HA/HMG. He doesnt have to worry about hives! There are no fades or onos to prevent from attacking you. What happens when they get another hive?
<ul><li>New abilities (Stomp, metabolize, bile bomb, umbra, and leap. Wow, scary.) </li><li>New Upgrades (Following the DMS order the new upgrades are adrenline, celerity, and silence. How does that stop a 3/3 solider or an HA train?) </li><li>Another spawn slot for the aliens that you have to kill (When your HA train is rolling, is another hive going to stop it? I dont think so.)</li></ul>
And for aliens? All they have to do is delay the marines long enough so their team can muster enough res to all go/most go onos, and demolish their base. But wait, there is even more.
Lets think about the Onos v HA shall we? The onos is now a puny flop of a wet rag. It takes three HA to absolutly demolish an onos, rip it to shreads. That three, if they work together, can march right into a hive and tear it apart. They are just too powerful. But why werent they back in 1.04? Heres the reasons.
<ul><li>The heavy armor wasnt as accessable in 1.04. It took much longer to upgrade to HA, and the objects were much more expensive. </li><li>The onos was also very rare. It could take on a team of three or four HA and whip out a can of whoop arse on their entire base. But this onos was extreamly rare, to the point where you would only see one every two months. </li><li>The fades were the HA's perfect match. It was the aliens shock trooper verses the marines shock trooper. If there were two fades, they would can the one HA almost every time. But if it was an even number of fades and HA, it was usually an even match. I also have proof of this -- I had a two and a half hour long game in 1.04 on tanith. My HA were pushing the fades back, and then the fades would push my HA back. It was an on going strugle towards a hive. Once we got to one, we ran out of troops to send to the front lines as the enemy cut off our reinforcement route, and proceeded to tear our team of HA at the fronts to shreds. This continued the entire game until the aliens finally got their third hive up, and the onos came stomping in on our base. That was a <b>FUN</b> game.</li></ul>
But refer to the first two points of the above list. The new HA in 2.0 have been made cheaper, and more accessable by marines, MUCH more accessable, but recieved NO nerfs. The onos on the other hand, were just made more accessable. Not cheaper, and were nerfed to hell and back. Same with the fades, they lost their acid rocket, which was their only saving grace against HA, and it was moved to hive three.
Doesnt anyone see a problem here? The HA have become TOO STRONG, and the onos/fades too weak, in the effort to make the game shorter.
But why was the game needed shorter? There was no problem with the long games of NS! The two and a half hour long games were the fun ones. How does a boring game last two and a half hours?! The marines and aliens would always be pushing back and forth, constantly teching upwards towards their highest tech in order to win the game. Now, in the long games of NS these days, its usually one side constantly hitting another side, with the first side obviously going to win. Like the marines turtling up their spawn, and the aliens fighting off the lasting jetpackers. That just didnt happen in 1.04.
I propose that the classic game of NS be reworked, after 3.0 is released, and revert it back to long, fun games that they used to be. Put the hive limitations back in! Increase the prices for both sides and the time it takes to build things! Make it fun!! Combat has taken the roll of the short, action packed games with memorable moments, and classic has taken a back seat, only being a combat with larger maps, a gorge and commander with a res system.
There isnt any strategy left. Like I said before, its just a tech race, and its boring. Its also getting old fast, and needs a change.
<b>Its too short.</b>
The orginal purpose of the upgrade of 1.04 to 1.1 (later renamed to 2.0) was to, obviously fix mutlipule bug fixes, and speed up play time into rounds lasting fifteen minutes. Even with the shorter games, the bug fixes seemed to outweigh this "pro" and the game continued to succeed.
But what happened? Soon the occasional thread poped up with the reply that had "I'm bored of NS now" merged into the rest of the post. Natural-Selection had lost that "hook" that it somehow had in v1.04. Dispite the bugs, everyone was attached to the new mod, playing for hours on end without boredem ensuing.
Why? Was it the millions of fixed bugs? No, couldnt be. How about the new skulk wall code, where the skulk now aligned itself correctally with the wall? Well that cant upset somone... Could the game possibly be <i>too short?</i> Perhaps the NS team took a wrong turn aiming for smaller games with the same "memorable moments" blended in?
There are no memorable moments in NS that I have from 2.0/3.0. Ive spent more than 3/4 more time playing 2.0 and 3.0 than 1.04/1.03, but I still have more memorable moments from 1.04. Why? Because there is more time for things to happen!
There is no time for a commander or his troops to get settled into a game, its started and over in a flash. Whatever team that wins is usually the team that can get their build order up faster than the other. All the commander has to do is secure res and upgrade to 3/3 and HA/HMG. He doesnt have to worry about hives! There are no fades or onos to prevent from attacking you. What happens when they get another hive?
<ul><li>New abilities (Stomp, metabolize, bile bomb, umbra, and leap. Wow, scary.) </li><li>New Upgrades (Following the DMS order the new upgrades are adrenline, celerity, and silence. How does that stop a 3/3 solider or an HA train?) </li><li>Another spawn slot for the aliens that you have to kill (When your HA train is rolling, is another hive going to stop it? I dont think so.)</li></ul>
And for aliens? All they have to do is delay the marines long enough so their team can muster enough res to all go/most go onos, and demolish their base. But wait, there is even more.
Lets think about the Onos v HA shall we? The onos is now a puny flop of a wet rag. It takes three HA to absolutly demolish an onos, rip it to shreads. That three, if they work together, can march right into a hive and tear it apart. They are just too powerful. But why werent they back in 1.04? Heres the reasons.
<ul><li>The heavy armor wasnt as accessable in 1.04. It took much longer to upgrade to HA, and the objects were much more expensive. </li><li>The onos was also very rare. It could take on a team of three or four HA and whip out a can of whoop arse on their entire base. But this onos was extreamly rare, to the point where you would only see one every two months. </li><li>The fades were the HA's perfect match. It was the aliens shock trooper verses the marines shock trooper. If there were two fades, they would can the one HA almost every time. But if it was an even number of fades and HA, it was usually an even match. I also have proof of this -- I had a two and a half hour long game in 1.04 on tanith. My HA were pushing the fades back, and then the fades would push my HA back. It was an on going strugle towards a hive. Once we got to one, we ran out of troops to send to the front lines as the enemy cut off our reinforcement route, and proceeded to tear our team of HA at the fronts to shreds. This continued the entire game until the aliens finally got their third hive up, and the onos came stomping in on our base. That was a <b>FUN</b> game.</li></ul>
But refer to the first two points of the above list. The new HA in 2.0 have been made cheaper, and more accessable by marines, MUCH more accessable, but recieved NO nerfs. The onos on the other hand, were just made more accessable. Not cheaper, and were nerfed to hell and back. Same with the fades, they lost their acid rocket, which was their only saving grace against HA, and it was moved to hive three.
Doesnt anyone see a problem here? The HA have become TOO STRONG, and the onos/fades too weak, in the effort to make the game shorter.
But why was the game needed shorter? There was no problem with the long games of NS! The two and a half hour long games were the fun ones. How does a boring game last two and a half hours?! The marines and aliens would always be pushing back and forth, constantly teching upwards towards their highest tech in order to win the game. Now, in the long games of NS these days, its usually one side constantly hitting another side, with the first side obviously going to win. Like the marines turtling up their spawn, and the aliens fighting off the lasting jetpackers. That just didnt happen in 1.04.
I propose that the classic game of NS be reworked, after 3.0 is released, and revert it back to long, fun games that they used to be. Put the hive limitations back in! Increase the prices for both sides and the time it takes to build things! Make it fun!! Combat has taken the roll of the short, action packed games with memorable moments, and classic has taken a back seat, only being a combat with larger maps, a gorge and commander with a res system.
There isnt any strategy left. Like I said before, its just a tech race, and its boring. Its also getting old fast, and needs a change.
Comments
I will agree with you on one thing though - I want longer games. I absolutely love those 2 hour stalemates, both sides moving back and forth for control, like a big armwrestle. As it is now, the game can be pretty much decided in the first 3 minutes or so, which just makes the rest of the game seem somewhat pointless.
I wish there was a "long game" option servers could turn on, because I know a lot of people like myself want really long games, and others want short games.
i agree with topic maker ^^
<ul><li>Jetpacks and HMGs. Give jetpacks less fuel and less thrust. Make HMGs like they are in 2.0, with peircing attacks. </li><li>Hive limitations. The onos at hive 3 is all too rare, and needs to see more action in the game. Onos should be available after hive 2, and all of the upgrade chambers for both hives are up, along with a team that has a general res income of 3 per tick. </li><li>Ability tweaks. Make the acid rocket not as strong, and make blink more user friendly, no getting stuck in walls. Get rid of stomp and give paralize back to onos so it can shoot down the jetpackers. Just make it beefier in general. </li><li>Alien tweaks. The fade needs to cost about 65 - 70 and the onos should stay the same -- 100. </li><li>Weapon tweaks. Make shotguns cost less, about 6 res, but make them much weaker and their spread larger. More of a close combat weapon than anything else.</li></ul>
Those are tweaks to the old 1.04 mind you. There would also be the introduction of the new lerk flight, lerk abilities, (except primal scream...give it something else, primal is the onos!) hand grenades, and catalists. Keep mines the way they were -- the red beam was an easy way to actually scare aliens from comming into your base.
They had it right at 1.04, only a few more tweaks were needed, which should have been 1.1, and then the final combat mode, which would be 2.0.
Used to be, marines had to <i>work</i> to keep those resources flowing. Either turret it up or leave it be and pray a skulk doesn't walk by. Now marines can just grab as many nodes as they can, electrify them and the aliens can't do jack. Skulks and gorges take <i>years</i> to kill electrified RT's. Let's face it, aliens can't touch those rt's until they get bilebomb, fades or onos, and that's a loooong time in these fast games, plenty of time for marines to secure a win.
I don't understand why electrify was ever introduced. It's cheaper than turrets, and it's more effective than turrets at protecting the RT's. I don't understand. Before, a couple skulks and a gorge at least had a good chance to take down that tfac. Now they have to waste precious minutes pecking away at a single rt.
Used to be, marines had to <i>work</i> to keep those resources flowing. Either turret it up or leave it be and pray a skulk doesn't walk by. Now marines can just grab as many nodes as they can, electrify them and the aliens can't do jack. Skulks and gorges take <i>years</i> to kill electrified RT's. Let's face it, aliens can't touch those rt's until they get bilebomb, fades or onos, and that's a loooong time in these fast games, plenty of time for marines to secure a win.
I don't understand why electrify was ever introduced. It's cheaper than turrets, and it's more effective than turrets at protecting the RT's. I don't understand. Before, a couple skulks and a gorge at least had a good chance to take down that tfac. Now they have to waste precious minutes pecking away at a single rt. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, instead of electrify turrets should be able to be placed in the vicenity of a TF. Only they would cost 25% more, so its only if you really need to guard it.
I dont believe so. 1.04 had stragtegies that were placed in stone and worked well, but the games were still longer, which ment the commanders had more time to put more strategies into place. There are a lot more strategies you can preform in a one and a half hour timespan than a short, fifteen minute one. And thats why its no fun.. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I hate NS classic now due to the fact, that if marines have a half-way decent commander they WILL win. I am a somwhat poor commander. I really havnt commanded many games. And somhow I manage to win every game. Even if my marines cant aim worth crap. I manage to command a winning game almost every time. And I stink. And I belive this is due to electrifing nodes. I think that if you did remove that, it would help the game lots. Give back paralize, remove Charge, and swap metbolize with acid rocket(or give fades somthing other then metabolize cuz I find it usless)
I got bored of classic because of the early decision making. 5 min into game? Marines have 4 nodes? gg! <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I don't know, maybe you are right. NS is a fun game to play but it does kinda feel like it's missing some of it's origional essence with the shorter gametimes.
On the other hand, things I can remember fondly about 2.01:
- Silence skulks getting right up on their prey
- Going as a fade an wiping out an entire team
- Going as a shotgunner and killing half a team
- Gorge gangs
- Lerk rushes
- Shotty rushes
- No more hive lockdowns
- Clan play is so much better
- Saving for onos
- Fighting off hordes and hordes of skulks during a seige
- Medspamming my marines
- Coordinating perfect skulk ambushes
- My first sensory experiences
And lots of other things, but I really don't feel like receiting them now.
Point is, 2.00 had a ton of memorable experiences, you guys are making up false realities of 'good ole times' when they just didn't exist.
-Recouple the Alien evolutions to number of hives, lerk at 1, fade at 2, onos at 3
-Bring back the 1.04 fatty, Gorge gets double share of res
-Remove electricty
-Do something with HA, maybe make it require lvl 1 armor, an arms lab (which you would have for the lvl 1 armor) and research at protolab. Something to make it a bit higher up on the tech tree.
-hand grenades could probally stay because I dont' see them adding or taking away too much.
-try keeping the jp the way it is for now to see how it works in a more 1.04ish setting
That's all I can think of right now. Bout to head to bed b/c I have Calc 2 and Physics in the morning.
-Recouple the Alien evolutions to number of hives, lerk at 1, fade at 2, onos at 3
-Bring back the 1.04 fatty, Gorge gets double share of res
-Remove electricty
-Do something with HA, maybe make it require lvl 1 armor, an arms lab (which you would have for the lvl 1 armor) and research at protolab. Something to make it a bit higher up on the tech tree.
-hand grenades could probally stay because I dont' see them adding or taking away too much.
-try keeping the jp the way it is for now to see how it works in a more 1.04ish setting
That's all I can think of right now. Bout to head to bed b/c I have Calc 2 and Physics in the morning. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
That'll just strengthen 2 hives lockdown, and it'll be just like 1.04. Also everybody gets armor 1 anyways so that wouldn't really change anything <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> 1.04 gorge is cool though
I'm just throwing out ideas here. Trying to get a collective 'brainstorm' going. What are yalls suggestions?
Also noticed a lot talk about the electrify thing, so i got "an idea" that if you electrify an TF or RT, it would slowly start to wear down. I mean that the RT would decrease in "health" every x seconds (or minutes?). Now there would need to be "maintenance" marine(s) with welders fixing them up every once in awhile.
Just an idea, i havent thought about it any further.
PS.
Cheers...
Admittedly, there are issues. While I'd love to see short games of NS, they shouldn't be <i>this</i> short. And I don't mean in actual time, mind you, some games are really really long... But they're a dull, lame long. Even those marine comebacks are dull until you actually, well, come back, after 2 hours pinned in MS building res for an HA squad. Games are decided in like 3 minutes.
However, I think anyone who pins this on one or two changes in smoking something (which I'd like a little bit of...). This is <i>not</i> due to electrification. This is <i>not</i> due to gorge res differences. In fact, this is <i>not</i> due to any one thing. More than anything, it's due to to growing skill inbalances, team stacking, and other fun things like that, most of which connect to the players.
That said, there are things to be missed. "l33t" lerks with mad spike skills versus jetpackers and their comms... The vital need for a very skilled comm (outside of the hated jetpack rush). However, as an overall game, 1.04 sucked. And sucked. And sucked. Not to say that there weren't memorable games, because there were, most of which generally consisted of 1 hive lockdowns with decent upgrades. But most games sucked so so so so so bad. At least, however, once you knew who would win, they won.
If you ask me, fixing up paper fades and oni some way other than simply boosting all their stats is one step. And, of course, here it comes, the recurring Spazmatic advocacy point of all time: Make multiple PGs per location, some disable-able, viable. No matter how much a marine team invests, no matter how much res they control, it's IMPOSSIBLE to guarantee control of an area long enough for marines to react if it's rushed with 4 oni, or bilebomb, because of the simple fact that multiple phasegates at all locations is not viable. If you do that, marines will suddenly be able to defend across the map better, and then you can tweak the mid-to-late game accordingly, thus allowing far better hopes for the "epic" games, while still leaving most games unaffected (as people say, the key to 1.04's "epic" games was the focus on 3 hive locations... this allows a similar result). That and, well, it'd be nice if aliens could spawn a little faster for those "epic" games, somehow. Probably too much to ask for, however.
In the end, though, I do wonder what everyone's smoking. 2.0 and 3.0 have problems, but on a whole, they're better. In fact, commanders <i>do</i> have more options now than ever, it's just that the game is normally over 3 minutes in (unless you electrify everything, then skulks and gorges have 2 more minutes to take them back). And the game is a LOT more balanced than before (jetpacks and Swiss Army hmgs!) And even skulking against high level marines is more fun. Or vanillas against oni. Overall, aside from early game decisions, there's little I would change.
End rant.
I think the only thing that should be changed is make fade/onos hive 2, and hmg/ha/jp harder to get. That would obviously add more focus to capturing and maintaining the hives. Well, like I said, because it's now so complex, this would probably have some problems, and I dont have the time to think it out right now =/
What would the res limit be? If it is lower than 75, then people can't get to onos, or onos has to be cheaper. If it is that high or higher, then overflow won't matter much more than it does with the 100 res cap now (in 3.0).
I think that 1.04 was great. Of course, I never saw the jp rush. I guess I was lucky. If the jp were nerfed (meaning not fps-dependent), then it could probably be pretty balanced.
Perhaps having RNs give out 2 res / suck for both teams, while increasing the cost of key upgrades?
Edit: Spelling
<!--QuoteBegin-Mystiqq+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mystiqq)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I mean that the RT would decrease in "health" every x seconds (or minutes?). Now there would need to be "maintenance" marine(s) with welders fixing them up every once in awhile.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Make RTs last like 3-5 minutes when electrified. To aid maintenance crew, the phasegates should, when used, bring up a menu where you select your destination. If the selected destination is occupied, place the marine in a queue (which is canceled upon movement). Also, make electrified RTs so they only attack the attacking alien. This puts an end to the annoying cramped bases I keep seeing, and places the PGs in a more vonourable situation. It also promotes the use of turrets, which is all to often replaced by electricity.
But all in all, I think 3.0 is a great leap from previous versions, in a good way <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
/RexM