Clans Dying
HAMBone
Probably the best Commander Join Date: 2003-04-02 Member: 15139Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
Probably the best Commander Join Date: 2003-04-02 Member: 15139Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
<div class="IPBDescription">another thought</div> I feel like part of the reason that many of the top clans have stopped playing recently (and why we will probably stop playing soon) is the sharp downturn of moral values in the competitive community. Don't get me wrong, NS is one of the most brilliant games I've ever played, but it seems to me like almost every clan has given up on the morals and values we once had.
Six months ago, there was only one clan who used bunnyhopping scripts and messed with their configs, and just about everyone hated them. Look around today, and it seems like every team is using bunnyhop scripts, messing with their gamma, there's even one team who I really had nothing but respect for that is now abusing cl_rate, even seemingly bragging about it on public forums(probably the worst config hack there is right now in competitive play, to others you seem to be jerking around as if you were lagging, but to you everything is perfectly smooth with no lag). At what point did all this stuff go from being terrible to being acceptable? We used to have such a clean, fun community. If drawviewmodel 0 was still allowed today then almost everyone would use it. Isnt that sad?
Its sucks that we decided it was ok to replace skill with lines in a config file. It could take a person months to become a good bunnyhopper, and even then they would NEVER be nearly as good as they could be with a script. I honestly believe that the vast majority of people in the community think like me and hate this config stuff, but clan A will use scripts against clan B and win, and then clan B will feel like they have to do it to compete, and since its legal in CAL, why not? And within a few months we will have degenerated to the point where we're like the competitive quake community, where every single player uses every single possible config hack that will in any small way benefit them, and its completely acceptable. Is it too late to bring the values and sportsmanship back to NS? CAL really cant enforce stuff like bunnyhop scripts, but do you think that people would stop if they made a rule against it anyways?
I think that something has to be done about this now before it gets out of hand, cal needs to put rules in place and enforce them, we need wwcl and cheating-death to be mandatory on match servers. I will be putting both wwcl and cheating death on our match server tonight.
Six months ago, there was only one clan who used bunnyhopping scripts and messed with their configs, and just about everyone hated them. Look around today, and it seems like every team is using bunnyhop scripts, messing with their gamma, there's even one team who I really had nothing but respect for that is now abusing cl_rate, even seemingly bragging about it on public forums(probably the worst config hack there is right now in competitive play, to others you seem to be jerking around as if you were lagging, but to you everything is perfectly smooth with no lag). At what point did all this stuff go from being terrible to being acceptable? We used to have such a clean, fun community. If drawviewmodel 0 was still allowed today then almost everyone would use it. Isnt that sad?
Its sucks that we decided it was ok to replace skill with lines in a config file. It could take a person months to become a good bunnyhopper, and even then they would NEVER be nearly as good as they could be with a script. I honestly believe that the vast majority of people in the community think like me and hate this config stuff, but clan A will use scripts against clan B and win, and then clan B will feel like they have to do it to compete, and since its legal in CAL, why not? And within a few months we will have degenerated to the point where we're like the competitive quake community, where every single player uses every single possible config hack that will in any small way benefit them, and its completely acceptable. Is it too late to bring the values and sportsmanship back to NS? CAL really cant enforce stuff like bunnyhop scripts, but do you think that people would stop if they made a rule against it anyways?
I think that something has to be done about this now before it gets out of hand, cal needs to put rules in place and enforce them, we need wwcl and cheating-death to be mandatory on match servers. I will be putting both wwcl and cheating death on our match server tonight.
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
NS is a great game to play, but the clan scene is extremely hostile. I remember a short while ago, fwd were abused for bunnyhopping/dvm 0 etc...nowadays, the vast majority of it and its taken as "normal" in the game. Going to a lan a while back was quite shocking...a lot of players were using programs such as powerstrip to remove shadows from the game...quite surprised me... <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
I dunno - I've never tracked these things either way really. As in I have no idea what clans you're even talking about, even with the "and everyone hated them" bit. Is HAM seriously considering disbanding because they feel there're more people using leet gammahax etc? If that's the case, I think you guys should stick it out to the end of the current CAL season at least. Or perhaps to phrase that a bit better: I hope you do.
p.s.: banned for teamstacking :o
i never really thought of these people being the downfall of the cal community, but yes, i agree with you whole heartedly. I get fed up with people pushing the rules to the limit and little to no standards enforced by cal. kudos for pointing this out.
I won't deny that I use it. However I have to because my video drivers reset my gamma and brightness to zero every time I start a game. I make sure that when I adjust my gamma that the shadows are still visible.
With regards to abusing scripts in competitive play, I cannot say that I am angered. It is a competition and you are in it to win. If it does not violate the rules of the match then there is little ground for you to stand on.
However I do feel that the rules should be tightened. Cyber-Athelete is no such thing until every competitor is on equal footing.
So, just to clarify, this is not me lashing out at the community. This is me saying, lets take a good look at ourselves and the people around us, lets acknowledge whats going on, and lets try to put a stop to it before its too late. If I'm in the minority on this issue then I will give it up and fade away, but I do not think I am the minority, I think there are alot of people out there using bunnyhop scripts and other config hacks right now that feel dirty about it and wish they could stop, but as long as they think that everyone else around them is doing the same thing, they cant.
I don't think the cal rules can do this.
I think we would need programs like punkbuster that would detect this stuff.
But more importantly I think Hambone is saying "why is it ok to do this stuff".
I think hes saying we should make it not ok to take every little advantage, it needs to stop.
It should not be acceptable if your clanmate says he has replaced his skulk model with the onos model so that skulks can't ever sneak up on him.
Think like tony hawk's pro skater or something like that. One guy is using max'ed out skill stats and his uber mega board so that he can do all these massive tricks with little skill while another guy goes and uses the min stats and just all around less than player a. Both are capeable of doing very well, but the guy with maxed out stats will be able to do so with a hell of a lot less effort.
HAMBONE made some suggestion, but what does anyone else within the clan community feel should be done exactly? Our logic has always been there was never an "epidemic" that required attention. Things like OGC and such just haven't hit the NS community as hard as other games. Getting 12 guys together, on one server, at the right time - is hard enough. When you start throwing client side programs that can mess up, and server side processes that control who connects...you just make the whole ordeal even harder. We wanted to keep it simple, and if a few people changed a few variables around to make their screen brighter or something, so be it. But if it is getting out of hand then something should be done...suggestions?
HAMBONE made some suggestion, but what does anyone else within the clan community feel should be done exactly? Our logic has always been there was never an "epidemic" that required attention. Things like OGC and such just haven't hit the NS community as hard as other games. Getting 12 guys together, on one server, at the right time - is hard enough. When you start throwing client side programs that can mess up, and server side processes that control who connects...you just make the whole ordeal even harder. We wanted to keep it simple, and if a few people changed a few variables around to make their screen brighter or something, so be it. But if it is getting out of hand then something should be done...suggestions? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I dont think it would hurt anything to make rules super tight. It would probably be a comfort to new clans thinking about getting competitive.
HAMBONE made some suggestion, but what does anyone else within the clan community feel should be done exactly? Our logic has always been there was never an "epidemic" that required attention. Things like OGC and such just haven't hit the NS community as hard as other games. Getting 12 guys together, on one server, at the right time - is hard enough. When you start throwing client side programs that can mess up, and server side processes that control who connects...you just make the whole ordeal even harder. We wanted to keep it simple, and if a few people changed a few variables around to make their screen brighter or something, so be it. But if it is getting out of hand then something should be done...suggestions? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I dont think it would hurt anything to make rules super tight. It would probably be a comfort to new clans thinking about getting competitive. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem with that is, we can't imagine every thing someone is gonna do. Recently we had someone trying to play for 3 seperate clans at one time. I mean, come on...do I even have to explain the wrong in that?
So should we add a rule for every variable that can be exploited? No...that is silly.
nvm, didnt know they didnt help against that...so just scratch this idea from the record.
just look what exoity did to cri <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> ( no offense exo)
CD nor punkbuster protect from 'scripting' events in your config files. but I don't think it's possible to prevent scripting with the engine we are using, even though there have been attempts to prevent it.
I don't think there's any harm in modifying the rules to suit the situation. As exploitable commands gain prevelance you should feel free to ban it from competitive play. The people that are using these things aren't ignorant; they know that what they're doing is at the least very shady. As long as a majority can agree that something is harmful to competetive play lets get it out and spell it out in the rules clearly what's wrong. "<a href='http://www.bartleby.com/59/3/foolishconsi.html' target='_blank'>Foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds</a>," etc etc.
I don't think the cal rules can do this.
I think we would need programs like punkbuster that would detect this stuff.
But more importantly I think Hambone is saying "why is it ok to do this stuff".
I think hes saying we should make it not ok to take every little advantage, it needs to stop.
It should not be acceptable if your clanmate says he has replaced his skulk model with the onos model so that skulks can't ever sneak up on him. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
But you see, HAMBROWN said that other clans were following suit BECAUSE it is perfectly legal in CAL rules.
And its human nature to take every advantage. I do not need to tell you that there are people who play with only winning in mind, being fair and following rules is only to make sure the win stays a win. That is why stricter rules is the only economical solution to this. If the said clans are outright cheating...well, I guess it cannot be helped..
Server commands such as sv_minrate & sv_minupdaterate exist for this reason & should be used to "level the playing field". Also server side metamod plugins can be used to check & enforce client side variables (even though I detest it with a passion, WWCL has been used to achieve this in the CS community but I wouldn't recommend it for NS, using AMX or C-D to implement it would be much more efficient or elegant or even adding more server commands to NS).
However I agree with HAMBONE. Finding a solution to this 'problem' should not be needed but it has reared it head now & I doubt it will go away. r_drawviewmodel 0 was very controversial & offered the user a huge advantage so it was removed from the game. Surely there should be efforts to do the same in this case?
md5 would be even more secure although I don't know how feasable that would be.
People that only care about winning and nothing else will try and cheat to help further that goal. And they will spend long hours to try and get around any wwcl or cheating death protection. But as long as steps are taken to make cheating and exploiting very difficult, and easier to catch, the vast majority of people will take comfort in knowing that in all likelihood the game is fair, that they don't have to cheat to be competitive, and we can get back to the important stuff, playing competitively.
I just hate how so many ppl go "oh nice bunny hop u have there" or "u should bunny hop, you will get more kills". I find that my conscience is clear when I know I have killed somebody using my raw skill, and not by using some exploit. Now I know everybody is going to go waaaah waaaah bhop is okay because they left it in, but they only left it in for aliens at it slowed them down too much ingame.
Just remember that not all scripts are bad, I know a few ppl who are disabled and rely on scripts so they can enjoy the game a little better also.
I've seen all sorts of scripts and even recently a member of a very good european clan get caught cheating.
This was unheard of back in 1.04.
Bunnyhopping scripts are the newest fad, and it's so obvious to spot someone doing it. After getting involved with the new UKNSL thats gonna start I appealed to adminmod script writers to see if we could get together a program that would scan+upload .cfg files from a clients computer so we could find out who had scripts and who didn't. Apparently it's not easy to do at all.
As for configging, well if you know your stuff you'll know that bar the cl_rate abuse, there are no other commands that give u any noticable advantage than ex_interp. But this isn't generally a problem, since WWCL does a nice job of keeping cvars in check, although you can even get round that. <a href='http://www.unitedadmins.com/cdeath-dl.php' target='_blank'>Cheating-Death</a> does a great job on stopping 'proper' cheats and it also limits a few cvars like interp.
One thing I have noticed is how hardly any servers in the USA have C-D, often when we come to play your clans they dont have it[not suggesting you cheat btw <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->]. Whereas in Europe C-D is on a huge amount of servers, perhaps you guys are more trusting?<!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
To stop the scripts is a big task, however in the mean time, servers should start installing WWCL and Cheating-Death if you haven't already.
edit: forgot to add, torment shall be adding wwcl to all of our servers to work with the already-installed cheating death, hope you server owners follow