And legion; You'd cry over someones death because they 'mean' something to <b>you</b>. They might be worthless in the great equation of the cosmos but if they matter to you then you'd cry. Do christians cry over every single death because another servant of god has gone? o.O
<span style='font-size:7pt;line-height:100%'>*life knowing that I'd ignored my creator and etc... it's not like he gave me an easy, accessible and solid base to believe in him so if he wants to play mindgames he can go stuff himself =P</span>
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But the thing is, that every single person in my church has had either an experience where they accept Christ much in the matter described, or where they feel His presence in their lives so much that they are drawn to go and act upon it. I think it's worth noting that this little section of the 'body of Christ' has well over 5000 people in regular attendance, not just people like me, but scientists, doctors, neural net programmers, and all the people which are not "supposed to be" Christians.
I think the best evidence for the fact that God exists the the end result of what He has done. The Church, made up of billions of believers, made possible through Christ laying himself down on the cross.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was brought up going to church every sunday for the first 10 years of my life and I never felt any sort of presence or anything compelling me to "act upon it". I challenge you to find a Neural net programmer who is a christian - the 2 ideas are completely contradictory! In regard to doctors and scientists, I've never met a doctor or scientist who was religious.. maybe you have? The ideas don't really go along with each other, and any doctor who would beleive in religion shouldn't be allowed to practise in my opinion as they clearly have a very bad scientific understanding.
You say the church is made up of "billions" of beleivers... Over 1/6th of the worlds population. I think you overestimate your religion - the number is probably under 1 billion, and over 60% of those will be Americans. Personally I can only think of 1 person who I know in real life that is christian.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There's a Catch-22 here. If you were a Christian, you'd see your greater purpose, going out to spread the news, that reconciliation to God is possible, it's free, and that you can do it right now. Paul spoke of this curcumstance, I want to say in Phillipians, where he says that he wishes to depart and go to heaven, but sticks around here for the benefit of the people around him. Being a Christian is about loving God, and from love comes obedience, and from obedience comes action, and from action comes rewards.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ok given that, why does god put us here? Why do we not just go straight to heaven?
He creates us, gives us free will, then damns us for using it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You contradcit yourself. If we are worthless, why do you cry for someone who dies? They are worth nothing, right? Humans are worth something, it's just that compared to God, we have fallen so far short. Enter Christ.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I would cry for somebody dying because of emotional attachment to them, while I know that in reality their death is insignificant I am still a human with human emotions. The emotions you feel arent anything magical to do with god, they have rational evolution-survival, and cognotive explanations that I shant go into here.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The penalty for sin is death, as a result of the original sin, and death came into this world in more ways than one. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> So you are saying that god infects people with disease who have sinned? Are you saying that christians do not get diseases? Did you see the pope on TV recently? He is crawling with diseases.. explain that. If the penality for sin is death, why do non-sinners (the pope?, saints?) die?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But the thing is, that every single person in my church has had either an experience where they accept Christ much in the matter described, or where they feel His presence in their lives so much that they are drawn to go and act upon it. I think it's worth noting that this little section of the 'body of Christ' has well over 5000 people in regular attendance, not just people like me, but scientists, doctors, neural net programmers, and all the people which are not "supposed to be" Christians.
I think the best evidence for the fact that God exists the the end result of what He has done. The Church, made up of billions of believers, made possible through Christ laying himself down on the cross.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was brought up going to church every sunday for the first 10 years of my life and I never felt any sort of presence or anything compelling me to "act upon it". I challenge you to find a Neural net programmer who is a christian - the 2 ideas are completely contradictory! In regard to doctors and scientists, I've never met a doctor or scientist who was religious.. maybe you have? The ideas don't really go along with each other, and any doctor who would beleive in religion shouldn't be allowed to practise in my opinion as they clearly have a very bad scientific understanding.
You say the church is made up of "billions" of beleivers... Over 1/6th of the worlds population. I think you overestimate your religion - the number is probably under 1 billion, and over 60% of those will be Americans. Personally I can only think of 1 person who I know in real life that is christian. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Back then, you couldn't comprehend the vastness of the world around you, just as I couldn't. As soon as you figured out you had a choice, you didn't give God a second look and went and did your own thing.
Which fits into the next point:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Ok given that, why does god put us here? Why do we not just go straight to heaven?
He creates us, gives us free will, then damns us for using it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The sole purpose your were created for was to have a relationship with God. You choose not to do that, your purpose goes unfulfilled, and He casts you aside. I don't see what's so hard to believe about that. It's like if I were to write a program to help me input data, and it decides to defragment my hard drive. You wouldn't blame me for deleting that program, so why do you blame God for destroying you when he's the one who calls the shots, and who is the one who is morally perfect? He is excercising His rights as the creator. Goes along with the potter example.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So you are saying that god infects people with disease who have sinned? Are you saying that christians do not get diseases? Did you see the pope on TV recently? He is crawling with diseases.. explain that. If the penality for sin is death, why do non-sinners (the pope?, saints?) die?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Simple really. The Pope is a sinner too, because he is human. We all fall short of perfection, which is why Jesus Christ was and is such a big deal. He made it possible to reconcile with God, by providing a scapegoat for our sins. "He who was without sin was made to be sin for us."
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The sole purpose your were created for was to have a relationship with God. You choose not to do that, your purpose goes unfulfilled, and He casts you aside.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
God is an attention addict? That explains alot. All this stuff is basically the same arguments we went over in the Argument from Evil thread. If you wish to persist in it, then maybe you should resurrect that thread.
<!--QuoteBegin--Mercior+Oct 25 2003, 05:27 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mercior @ Oct 25 2003, 05:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You contradcit yourself. If we are worthless, why do you cry for someone who dies? They are worth nothing, right? Humans are worth something, it's just that compared to God, we have fallen so far short. Enter Christ.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I would cry for somebody dying because of emotional attachment to them, while I know that in reality their death is insignificant I am still a human with human emotions. The emotions you feel arent anything magical to do with god, they have rational evolution-survival, and cognotive explanations that I shant go into here. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> hang on...
You say human beings are worthless and insignificant. We can compare them to a piece of rubbish - worthless and insignificant. Still with me?
never mind. i will continue anyway.
I dont see you crying when bits of rubbish get burnt. If humans are worthless, why do they mean anything to you? You may as well have a relationship with a piece of rubbish
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I challenge you to find a Neural net programmer who is a christian - the 2 ideas are completely contradictory! In regard to doctors and scientists, I've never met a doctor or scientist who was religious.. maybe you have? The ideas don't really go along with each other, and any doctor who would beleive in religion shouldn't be allowed to practise in my opinion as they clearly have a very bad scientific understanding.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm sorry, but you seem to be blissfully unaware of what science actually is and how it operates. Science is the observation of nature, the physical world. Religion talks about the meta-physical world. Science is by definition unable to verify or falsify any metaphysical claim made by religion, therefore a man's religion bears no relevance for his scientific qualification.
On the other hand, show me a scientist who has "indisputable scientific evidence" that the sun will rise tomorrow, and I show you an incompetent scientist. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Ok about the wind concept, it really isn't that bad. We have very good reason to believe in the wind, it is the most logical conclusion. With god, it's harder to get the evidence. So the wind has much more evidence, there is less unknowns or contradictory evidence.
I think it's quite possible for god to exsist, but what you have to realize Z.X., is that proving god exsists doesn't prove YOUR god exsists. In fact it doesn't even disprove evolution. Although I am open to the idea that evolution is not the whole picture, or is inaccurate, and a god really did create us. But for me, this would have nothing to do with what the bible once told me.
As for these people saying "if god exsists, why is X like this?", god is a complex subject. We don't know his nature, or his plan for us. I think that if there is a god, we could be an experiment to him. But if god is so grand then why would he need to entertain himself with us? Well that's because we don't know god, we don't know how grand really is. When we someday create awesome virtual worlds with computers, do we becomes gods, who are truly almightly? Nope. Same concept might apply to god.
Boggle, because humans dont form emotional attachments to pieces of rubbish? A human can communicate with you, you can identify with it. A piece of rubbish cant.
Twex, I've tried to stay on topic but it keeps getting pulled offtopic because I have to explain why boggles endless anologies have nothing to do with the topic at hand. What I want to know is why god would "create man in his own likeness", put us on this planet and give us the gift of free will, fill the planet with evil temptations and then send those of us who gave into these "temptations" to a place where we experience the worst pain imaginable for eternity?
Why would he choose to create us? Why would he give us free will knowing that it would result in many of us becoming evil?
If you look at god as a human, he is a man who creates beings that have free will and raises them in a small cage with 2 bowls of food - 1 that is poisoned, 1 that is not.
What gives the man the right to keep creating these beings when so many of them will inevitably eat from the poisoned bowl? Wouldnt the moral thing be to set the beings free?
<b>Are we still talking about what hell is like or why we go there?</b>
If you think it's the latter, get your own damn thread for it. It seems to be impossible to create a topic anyway related to religion without people de-railing it in to oblivion.
This wind argument makes me crack up. You know you've lost and you're clinging to whatever shred of fantasy land you can when you try to prove wind doesn't exist.
First of all, you think, and quite incorrectly, that wind is an object. For example, if I could have a block of wind. No. Wind is not so much an object as it is a concept; a way of sort of simplifying another concept.
Let's look at the definition of wind.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->wind n.
Moving air, especially a natural and perceptible movement of air parallel to or along the ground. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Moving air. How do we know the air is moving?
Technically...
1) We can feel it. You feel the little molecules of oxygen, carbon dioxide, what have you hitting your nerves.
2) We can smell it. Notice how a scent, which in and of itself is odor-causing particles floating in the air (Odors are smelled because they are chemically detected in our olfactory), will 'blow somewhere else'?
3) We can 'see' it.
a) We know that air is made out of molecules. b) We know that air molecules have weight. c) We know that wind is this air moving. d) Therefore, theoretically it would be possible, if one were to be able to see molecules, to see the molecules moving and bouncing off.
Now, what causes wind? Would you like to try to disprove laws of physics now, Boggle? Wind is caused by a pressure imbalance. High pressure moves to low pressure. You can not only scientifically detect these pressure systems with barometers, but you can feel the pressure change. Pressure changes come about by dynamic temperatures.
Finally, these pressure imbalances are caused by the sun. The earth is an imperfect machine: Instead of being uniformly warmed by the sun, the earth is warmed very asymmetrically. This causes temperature differences, which causes pressure differences, which causes air molecules to move from one high pressure system to a low pressure system, and in turn, is summed up with one word: WIND.
[edit] Hawkeye got in before me. If you want to know what i was going to say, PM me [/edit]
Shall we try to get this back on-topic?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->why god would "create man in his own likeness", put us on this planet and give us the gift of free will,... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
God created man in his own image so he could have a relationship with him. He put us on this planet because we needed a place to live. He gave us free will so we could have a meaningful relationship with Him.
all fine so far
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->...fill the planet with evil temptations <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats where you are wrong. God did not fill this planet with evil.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->and then send those of us who gave into these "temptations" to a place where we experience the worst pain imaginable for eternity?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Having told you and shown you the way to eternal life, is it God's fault if you dont accept it? God is telling you to turn right, if you go straight on and fall off a cliff, thats not exactly God's fault is it?
Dont say God has not told you. The bible is available in your language. If God shows you a road map so you dont fall off a cliff, and you refuse to take the map, who is to blame?
Buddhism got a pretty bad **** kind of hell. It's the lowest place in their life wheel. You're forced to eat hot burning iron, being poked by hot burning iron etc. I read a rather graphic depiction of how it is to be in their hell. They ain't mucking about. If I could just remember where in heck's name I read it...
as far as i remember, buddhists believe that if you do badly in life you just get demoted. if you are a man you would come back as a woman and so on. i dont think buddhists have a hell, they only have a nirvana
Boggle you are avoiding my question. I'm looking at the bigger picture - why does god put us on earth if the only purpose if it is to see which of us follow the path of evil using the gift of free will he gave us ? (+why do we get punished for taking the wrong path). Read my analogy above ^^
<!--QuoteBegin--Z.X. Bogglesteinsky+Oct 25 2003, 05:00 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Oct 25 2003, 05:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> We are on earth to have a meaningful relationship with God. That is the only reason we are here. there are no ifs or buts about it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Idk about you but I don't carry on intimate relationships with someone I can't meet.
We go around and around, and never get anywhere, just like in the argument from evil thread.... Speaking of which, doesn't this violate a new forum rule? The original topic doesn't, it pretty much assumes a hell to begin with.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Shall we try to get this back on-topic?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
WTH? The argument from evil thing is not the point of this topic!
<!--QuoteBegin--Mercior+Oct 25 2003, 04:42 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mercior @ Oct 25 2003, 04:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Boggle you are avoiding my question. I'm looking at the bigger picture - why does god put us on earth if the only purpose if it is to see which of us follow the path of evil using the gift of free will he gave us ? (+why do we get punished for taking the wrong path). Read my analogy above ^^ <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=28&t=48656' target='_blank'>Argument From Evil</a>
Mercior, all your questions have been brought out and answered there, so if you want to know boggles answer, head on over.
Studies were done on religion, and remarkable things were discovered in regards to their concepts of heaven and hell.
Basically, the trend was the better your life was, the better your religion reflected that by a grander ideal of heaven. The worse your life was, the worse hell would have been if you didn't follow suit. Of course by "you" I mean the members of a society.
I read about a culture where their lives were basically miserable. Their religion? They believed in an evil god where there was <b>NO</b> heaven. They believed the afterlife was one great big hell, only if you were good, you weren't being poked by the red-hot trident sticks, you were the one poking with the stick (showing good favor towards this particular God meant you were his helper in the afterlife).
That is facinating. It seems to contradict the idea of religion being a comfort blanket for when times get tough. You would have thought that the people with miserable lives would have a concept of a much better afterlife to give them something to look forward to, but it appears the opposite is the case. Most interesting.
<!--QuoteBegin--Z.X. Bogglesteinsky+Oct 26 2003, 03:26 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Oct 26 2003, 03:26 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> That is facinating. It seems to contradict the idea of religion being a comfort blanket for when times get tough. You would have thought that the people with miserable lives would have a concept of a much better afterlife to give them something to look forward to, but it appears the opposite is the case. Most interesting. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It is very interesting. It just goes to show that people model their afterlife - in general - based on how they experience their lives here on earth.
It probably shows that for them it is very difficult to imagine a place that could be 'heaven-like' in our perspective. Therefore the natural conclusion is that for them there isn't one, at least not one that is pain free.
Still, they do have the concept of cultivating favor with a deity for some kind of reward. So I would say that it still provides a comfort blanket of sorts, if not one that we would consider to be all that great.
In this respect it really is not much different than most other religions, Christianity included. If you look at the description of hell with the 'gnashing of teeth' spiel you can plainly see people of the time's imagination at work. Hell must be bad therefore people must be suffering. Therefore they gnash in pain.
Similarly, with heaven having 'streets of gold' and what not. You can see the imagination at work again. Heaven must be great therefore it must have these wonderful streets etc.
I'm sorry? If we're here to have a meaningful relationship with god...
1) Why are we on EARTH. Why didn't he just make some peons in heaven like in The Sims? Considering our meaningful relationship won't begin until we get to heaven, you still haven't answered the question of why we're on EARTH. Stop running your logic in circles!
2) God has HOW MANY SAINTS, his SON, his... how do I say this without getting flamed... 'wife' he impregnated, he's got the apostles... what the hell is god's problem? Did he get picked on as a kid?
Boggle, what filthylarry is getting at is that a culture creates religion based on their perceptions of the world, and hence derive 'explanations' or myths from them. This culture seemed to have had a bleak outlook on life based on their bleak experiences of the world, therefore their religion reflects this.
<!--QuoteBegin---spidermonkey-+Oct 26 2003, 09:59 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (-spidermonkey- @ Oct 26 2003, 09:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Boggle, what filthylarry is getting at is that a culture creates religion based on their perceptions of the world, and hence derive 'explanations' or myths from them. This culture seemed to have had a bleak outlook on life based on their bleak experiences of the world, therefore their religion reflects this. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Exactly.
Hell - Loose women, loose slots, gambling, you know, all the stuff that was declared evil at some point... and you can't get women pregnant because... well.. it's hell.
I dunno I think I'd look more forward to that then strumming on a harp all day. What do you do in heaven? Talk to god?
"Hey, 'sup G dawg?"
"Not much brotha', an you? Oh... wait... I already know what you did yesterday."
"Yeah..."
"So uh... how 'bout those Cubs?"
"Speaking of that... c'mon what's wrong with you. It's the freakin' CUBS for the love of god!"
"Man it seemed like yesterday to me the Cubs won..."
"It's been over 80 damn years!"
"Really? Huh. Guess I goofed there."
"I saw all those Marlins praying before they went up to bat..."
"Yeah well... you know how old I am? I've got this nice place on Casey Key..."
"Dude, you suck. In so many ways."
"Oh, that is IT" (Sends guy down to hell with the rest of the Marlins team)
Comments
And legion; You'd cry over someones death because they 'mean' something to <b>you</b>. They might be worthless in the great equation of the cosmos but if they matter to you then you'd cry. Do christians cry over every single death because another servant of god has gone? o.O
<span style='font-size:7pt;line-height:100%'>*life knowing that I'd ignored my creator and etc... it's not like he gave me an easy, accessible and solid base to believe in him so if he wants to play mindgames he can go stuff himself =P</span>
I think the best evidence for the fact that God exists the the end result of what He has done. The Church, made up of billions of believers, made possible through Christ laying himself down on the cross.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was brought up going to church every sunday for the first 10 years of my life and I never felt any sort of presence or anything compelling me to "act upon it". I challenge you to find a Neural net programmer who is a christian - the 2 ideas are completely contradictory! In regard to doctors and scientists, I've never met a doctor or scientist who was religious.. maybe you have? The ideas don't really go along with each other, and any doctor who would beleive in religion shouldn't be allowed to practise in my opinion as they clearly have a very bad scientific understanding.
You say the church is made up of "billions" of beleivers... Over 1/6th of the worlds population. I think you overestimate your religion - the number is probably under 1 billion, and over 60% of those will be Americans. Personally I can only think of 1 person who I know in real life that is christian.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There's a Catch-22 here. If you were a Christian, you'd see your greater purpose, going out to spread the news, that reconciliation to God is possible, it's free, and that you can do it right now. Paul spoke of this curcumstance, I want to say in Phillipians, where he says that he wishes to depart and go to heaven, but sticks around here for the benefit of the people around him. Being a Christian is about loving God, and from love comes obedience, and from obedience comes action, and from action comes rewards.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok given that, why does god put us here? Why do we not just go straight to heaven?
He creates us, gives us free will, then damns us for using it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You contradcit yourself. If we are worthless, why do you cry for someone who dies? They are worth nothing, right? Humans are worth something, it's just that compared to God, we have fallen so far short. Enter Christ.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would cry for somebody dying because of emotional attachment to them, while I know that in reality their death is insignificant I am still a human with human emotions. The emotions you feel arent anything magical to do with god, they have rational evolution-survival, and cognotive explanations that I shant go into here.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The penalty for sin is death, as a result of the original sin, and death came into this world in more ways than one. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So you are saying that god infects people with disease who have sinned? Are you saying that christians do not get diseases? Did you see the pope on TV recently? He is crawling with diseases.. explain that. If the penality for sin is death, why do non-sinners (the pope?, saints?) die?
I think the best evidence for the fact that God exists the the end result of what He has done. The Church, made up of billions of believers, made possible through Christ laying himself down on the cross.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was brought up going to church every sunday for the first 10 years of my life and I never felt any sort of presence or anything compelling me to "act upon it". I challenge you to find a Neural net programmer who is a christian - the 2 ideas are completely contradictory! In regard to doctors and scientists, I've never met a doctor or scientist who was religious.. maybe you have? The ideas don't really go along with each other, and any doctor who would beleive in religion shouldn't be allowed to practise in my opinion as they clearly have a very bad scientific understanding.
You say the church is made up of "billions" of beleivers... Over 1/6th of the worlds population. I think you overestimate your religion - the number is probably under 1 billion, and over 60% of those will be Americans. Personally I can only think of 1 person who I know in real life that is christian.
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Back then, you couldn't comprehend the vastness of the world around you, just as I couldn't. As soon as you figured out you had a choice, you didn't give God a second look and went and did your own thing.
Which fits into the next point:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Ok given that, why does god put us here? Why do we not just go straight to heaven?
He creates us, gives us free will, then damns us for using it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The sole purpose your were created for was to have a relationship with God. You choose not to do that, your purpose goes unfulfilled, and He casts you aside. I don't see what's so hard to believe about that. It's like if I were to write a program to help me input data, and it decides to defragment my hard drive. You wouldn't blame me for deleting that program, so why do you blame God for destroying you when he's the one who calls the shots, and who is the one who is morally perfect? He is excercising His rights as the creator. Goes along with the potter example.
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So you are saying that god infects people with disease who have sinned? Are you saying that christians do not get diseases? Did you see the pope on TV recently? He is crawling with diseases.. explain that. If the penality for sin is death, why do non-sinners (the pope?, saints?) die?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Simple really. The Pope is a sinner too, because he is human. We all fall short of perfection, which is why Jesus Christ was and is such a big deal. He made it possible to reconcile with God, by providing a scapegoat for our sins. "He who was without sin was made to be sin for us."
God is an attention addict? That explains alot. All this stuff is basically the same arguments we went over in the Argument from Evil thread. If you wish to persist in it, then maybe you should resurrect that thread.
I would cry for somebody dying because of emotional attachment to them, while I know that in reality their death is insignificant I am still a human with human emotions. The emotions you feel arent anything magical to do with god, they have rational evolution-survival, and cognotive explanations that I shant go into here. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
hang on...
You say human beings are worthless and insignificant. We can compare them to a piece of rubbish - worthless and insignificant. Still with me?
never mind. i will continue anyway.
I dont see you crying when bits of rubbish get burnt. If humans are worthless, why do they mean anything to you? You may as well have a relationship with a piece of rubbish
I'm sorry, but you seem to be blissfully unaware of what science actually is and how it operates. Science is the observation of nature, the physical world. Religion talks about the meta-physical world. Science is by definition unable to verify or falsify any metaphysical claim made by religion, therefore a man's religion bears no relevance for his scientific qualification.
On the other hand, show me a scientist who has "indisputable scientific evidence" that the sun will rise tomorrow, and I show you an incompetent scientist. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Oh, and we're hopelessly off-topic.
Hell. Ugly. Don't go there.
I think it's quite possible for god to exsist, but what you have to realize Z.X., is that proving god exsists doesn't prove YOUR god exsists. In fact it doesn't even disprove evolution. Although I am open to the idea that evolution is not the whole picture, or is inaccurate, and a god really did create us. But for me, this would have nothing to do with what the bible once told me.
As for these people saying "if god exsists, why is X like this?", god is a complex subject. We don't know his nature, or his plan for us. I think that if there is a god, we could be an experiment to him. But if god is so grand then why would he need to entertain himself with us? Well that's because we don't know god, we don't know how grand really is. When we someday create awesome virtual worlds with computers, do we becomes gods, who are truly almightly? Nope. Same concept might apply to god.
Twex, I've tried to stay on topic but it keeps getting pulled offtopic because I have to explain why boggles endless anologies have nothing to do with the topic at hand. What I want to know is why god would "create man in his own likeness", put us on this planet and give us the gift of free will, fill the planet with evil temptations and then send those of us who gave into these "temptations" to a place where we experience the worst pain imaginable for eternity?
Why would he choose to create us? Why would he give us free will knowing that it would result in many of us becoming evil?
If you look at god as a human, he is a man who creates beings that have free will and raises them in a small cage with 2 bowls of food - 1 that is poisoned, 1 that is not.
What gives the man the right to keep creating these beings when so many of them will inevitably eat from the poisoned bowl? Wouldnt the moral thing be to set the beings free?
If you think it's the latter, get your own damn thread for it. It seems to be impossible to create a topic anyway related to religion without people de-railing it in to oblivion.
First of all, you think, and quite incorrectly, that wind is an object. For example, if I could have a block of wind. No. Wind is not so much an object as it is a concept; a way of sort of simplifying another concept.
Let's look at the definition of wind.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->wind
n.
Moving air, especially a natural and perceptible movement of air parallel to or along the ground.
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Moving air. How do we know the air is moving?
Technically...
1) We can feel it. You feel the little molecules of oxygen, carbon dioxide, what have you hitting your nerves.
2) We can smell it. Notice how a scent, which in and of itself is odor-causing particles floating in the air (Odors are smelled because they are chemically detected in our olfactory), will 'blow somewhere else'?
3) We can 'see' it.
a) We know that air is made out of molecules.
b) We know that air molecules have weight.
c) We know that wind is this air moving.
d) Therefore, theoretically it would be possible, if one were to be able to see molecules, to see the molecules moving and bouncing off.
Now, what causes wind? Would you like to try to disprove laws of physics now, Boggle? Wind is caused by a pressure imbalance. High pressure moves to low pressure. You can not only scientifically detect these pressure systems with barometers, but you can feel the pressure change. Pressure changes come about by dynamic temperatures.
Finally, these pressure imbalances are caused by the sun. The earth is an imperfect machine: Instead of being uniformly warmed by the sun, the earth is warmed very asymmetrically. This causes temperature differences, which causes pressure differences, which causes air molecules to move from one high pressure system to a low pressure system, and in turn, is summed up with one word: WIND.
This thread is under the assumption that A) God exists and B) There is a hell.
Also, there is an implied assumption that has not even been said because it "SHOULD" be self-explanitory, C) THIS IS NOT A WIND THREAD! SHUTUP!
Shall we try to get this back on-topic?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->why god would "create man in his own likeness", put us on this planet and give us the gift of free will,... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
God created man in his own image so he could have a relationship with him. He put us on this planet because we needed a place to live. He gave us free will so we could have a meaningful relationship with Him.
all fine so far
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->...fill the planet with evil temptations <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats where you are wrong. God did not fill this planet with evil.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->and then send those of us who gave into these "temptations" to a place where we experience the worst pain imaginable for eternity?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Having told you and shown you the way to eternal life, is it God's fault if you dont accept it? God is telling you to turn right, if you go straight on and fall off a cliff, thats not exactly God's fault is it?
Dont say God has not told you. The bible is available in your language. If God shows you a road map so you dont fall off a cliff, and you refuse to take the map, who is to blame?
(*cough*shotgun*cough*)
Idk about you but I don't carry on intimate relationships with someone I can't meet.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Shall we try to get this back on-topic?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
WTH? The argument from evil thing is not the point of this topic!
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=28&t=48656' target='_blank'>Argument From Evil</a>
Mercior, all your questions have been brought out and answered there, so if you want to know boggles answer, head on over.
Basically, the trend was the better your life was, the better your religion reflected that by a grander ideal of heaven. The worse your life was, the worse hell would have been if you didn't follow suit. Of course by "you" I mean the members of a society.
I read about a culture where their lives were basically miserable. Their religion? They believed in an evil god where there was <b>NO</b> heaven. They believed the afterlife was one great big hell, only if you were good, you weren't being poked by the red-hot trident sticks, you were the one poking with the stick (showing good favor towards this particular God meant you were his helper in the afterlife).
I think it is quite fascinating really.
It is very interesting. It just goes to show that people model their afterlife - in general - based on how they experience their lives here on earth.
It probably shows that for them it is very difficult to imagine a place that could be 'heaven-like' in our perspective. Therefore the natural conclusion is that for them there isn't one, at least not one that is pain free.
Still, they do have the concept of cultivating favor with a deity for some kind of reward. So I would say that it still provides a comfort blanket of sorts, if not one that we would consider to be all that great.
In this respect it really is not much different than most other religions, Christianity included. If you look at the description of hell with the 'gnashing of teeth' spiel you can plainly see people of the time's imagination at work. Hell must be bad therefore people must be suffering. Therefore they gnash in pain.
Similarly, with heaven having 'streets of gold' and what not. You can see the imagination at work again. Heaven must be great therefore it must have these wonderful streets etc.
1) Why are we on EARTH. Why didn't he just make some peons in heaven like in The Sims? Considering our meaningful relationship won't begin until we get to heaven, you still haven't answered the question of why we're on EARTH. Stop running your logic in circles!
2) God has HOW MANY SAINTS, his SON, his... how do I say this without getting flamed... 'wife' he impregnated, he's got the apostles... what the hell is god's problem? Did he get picked on as a kid?
Exactly.
What is hell like?
Theres a shortage of chairs.
I dunno I think I'd look more forward to that then strumming on a harp all day. What do you do in heaven? Talk to god?
"Hey, 'sup G dawg?"
"Not much brotha', an you? Oh... wait... I already know what you did yesterday."
"Yeah..."
"So uh... how 'bout those Cubs?"
"Speaking of that... c'mon what's wrong with you. It's the freakin' CUBS for the love of god!"
"Man it seemed like yesterday to me the Cubs won..."
"It's been over 80 damn years!"
"Really? Huh. Guess I goofed there."
"I saw all those Marlins praying before they went up to bat..."
"Yeah well... you know how old I am? I've got this nice place on Casey Key..."
"Dude, you suck. In so many ways."
"Oh, that is IT" (Sends guy down to hell with the rest of the Marlins team)