the whole res system is so messed up now, I don't even know the values. All I know its not fun to make WoL anymore because they are only going to get you 2 or 3 kills before they are gone!
so dont make a WoL, scatter OC's randomly around the map and youll catch dozens of rambos, and always know the movements of the enemy by their "structure if under attack" messages. its a hundred times more effective until they have plentiful GL's, and by that time you should have some big evolutions too.
<!--QuoteBegin--Zel+Sep 22 2003, 12:49 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zel @ Sep 22 2003, 12:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> so dont make a WoL, scatter OC's randomly around the map and youll catch dozens of rambos, and always know the movements of the enemy by their "structure if under attack" messages. its a hundred times more effective until they have plentiful GL's, and by that time you should have some big evolutions too. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Thats not how I like to play. I set up baracades. I look at the map and set up WoL in areas that then close off a path to another part. I set up a defnse perimeter around hives and RTs If they can get past the baracade then we are in trouble. Some maps made that really easy! The old 1.04 ns_eclipse comes to mind. on 1.04 eclipse marines could block off the whole right side of the map (maintenance) by setting up a Defense net in 2 locations. Half the map by placing stuff in 2 spots!
thats how I like to play. Make an area off limits and all the areas after that also. You can spend less res and make stronger WoL, that only HA/GLs or the under used siege can get rid of.
<!--QuoteBegin--Majin+Sep 22 2003, 12:59 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Majin @ Sep 22 2003, 12:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Thats not how I like to play. I set up baracades. I look at the map and set up WoL in areas that then close off a path to another part. I set up a defnse perimeter around hives and RTs If they can get past the baracade then we are in trouble. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> but you just said that doesnt work. what if they JP right over it into the undefended middle ground and set up a siege base! keep every area in a line of sight of ONE oc, and marines wont be able to make any secret actions.
<!--QuoteBegin--Majin+Sep 22 2003, 09:40 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Majin @ Sep 22 2003, 09:40 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I still HATE that OCs due half DMG to HA. It doesn't make sense to me at all. Marines have GLs and Sieges, 9 is the max amount of OCs that can be placed in an area and they only have 1000 life each. WTH would Flayra restrict OCs with half DMG. Its SO very different than a farm of turrets. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree with this 110%. This is more of those "why did they change that?" kind of questions. Sometimes there seems to be no rhyme or reason why they do things. Fixing what ain't broken......that's a bad sign.
Ollj is right, its better to have a 100 res ONOS then a WoL of 8 OCs (RD was right, I just had brain dmg when I said 9) and 2 DCs.
WHY FLAYRA, WHY? They are useless towards the mid/late of the game. You don't see OC farms, the aliens don't have a wep like the GL to spam with? Why does the only back up defense have to suck against HA? They can be destroyed so easy!
Thats the only problem I have had with 2.01 at all. The OCs suck!
o Had only 550 hp, down from 1000. o Deal 50 dmg still. o Same build time. o Cost only 5 res.
While I don't think OC's are useless now, they are quite expensive.
It would be interesting to see OC's that would be cheap, strong, but could be gunned down by one marine with a pistol and LMG clip.
However, you would have two OC's instead of one. This would make OC's:
- Feasible to use outside of your hive, marines would want to kill OC's since they would be easy to kill and not killing them would mean a lot of damage done to them. However, since killing the OC's would mean you would attract alien attention... thus making them great early warning systems. - Stronger with support (8 cloaked OC's hitting one marine at once vs. 4 cloaked OC's hitting one marine... do the math. Or, DC's by an OC would be much more useful) - Much more different (yes, even more so) than marine turrets. - OC's wouldn't be such a drain on a single resource flow.
OC go down to quick as it is now. Gorges don't get much RFKs and res comes in really slow most times! investments that will die in 1 LMG clip and a bit are useless investments and would need to be buddied up with DCS making it poinless to place OCs alone. Now you have a investment of much more than normal, because you need twice as many DCs to make up for the lack of life!
Thats what I NEVER want to see happen. OCs in 1.4 were good except they had **** aim, now Flayra has given them back bad aim again (or at least less than 2.0).
The old method of barricading off the map doesn't work for aliens anymore. Welcome to Natural Selection. Evolve or die.
Now OC placement is best done using towers, or using what I like to call the "OC Gauntlet" -- a long stretch of hallway with OC's placed in such a manner that marines are never out of fire while they're in the hall, but it only ever seems like there's only one or two OCs, so they should be able to run by them.
Half Damage for heavies didn't seem necessary, I'll agree, but half damage (or worse tracking, either/or doesn't matter) for JPs I fully agree with.
My biggest problem with the comm-chair drop is that the comm is at no risk from the tactic other than res. Try sneaking a gorge into turret range to put up your OC. (Is it just me or do turrets have a longer range than OCs?) Against a half-competent commander, there'll be an obs in with the electrified turret factory, making sneaking impossible. To be honest, you're probably better off putting up an SC if you can.. more hps, and if it manages to get online, you'll at least be cloaked, letting you get closer to drop the second one.
The only way to make OCs all around useful(besides the gauntlet method which I believe in) is to:
1)Modify the hitbox so pieces that stick around corners take no damage.
and
2)Increase the ROF(and/or accuracy) so that corner strafing DOES NOT work whatsoever. Jetpackers however, reduce the OC accuracy alot, even if they aren't going very fast.
Besides the gauntlet, OCs can also be used in a disputed area, to bolster alien defenses.
<!--QuoteBegin--Ollj+Sep 22 2003, 01:59 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ollj @ Sep 22 2003, 01:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> ocs are no longer to get res for kills, their worth is more strategically.
WOL just suck, build towers, thez are way better. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You get res for kills from OC's.
You can make Wols, gauntlets, or anything else. The problem is that the cost ratio is off. An Onos has a better chance at killing a heavy in a train than 200 rez points spent of Chambers any way you like to.
Now, they will still slow them dowm, but 5 heavys + 3mins is still 5 heavys.
Well this is why such things are built early on. If it costs 80 res for a WoL(6 OCs 2 DCs), this 80 res can be used to set up 4 two OC gauntlets at various places on the map.
I think OCs should get up on little feet in their bases and run after the marines headbutting them with the big spikey thing on top <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
might not be effecient but it'd make me giggle <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Geminosity+Sep 23 2003, 07:46 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Geminosity @ Sep 23 2003, 07:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I think OCs should get up on little feet in their bases and run after the marines headbutting them with the big spikey thing on top <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
might not be effecient but it'd make me giggle <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> No, they should hug you with their 4 long spike arms and give you kisses with their spike heads. With sound effects! <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif'><!--endemo-->
Be crafty, and know what your structures are for. You don't chop down trees with a sledgehammer, nor do you drive stakes into the ground with a well-edged ax. OC placement needs to be just as crafty as the placement of any other building, on either team, and they also sometimes need to rely on an alien who knows how to take advantage of them.
Some examples:
Set up one DC and two OCs to either side of it as a Regen Gorge in the underwater passageway between Refinery and Feedwater in Bast. Frankly, if you control Refinery, it's even easier to do this. Just drop an OC right at the end of the water passage. In such a manner, any marine trying to sneak-swim into alien territory will be destroyed by these submerged OCs, the process aided by his decreasing life as he suffocates. Even a HA will have to use his welder or knife to take the things out, and if the com really wants to get his guys through the tunnel, he will have to medspam until he has run out of res. Cost, 10 to 30 res. Benefit, closes off a potentially lethal backdoor to Main Aft and Refinery.
The OC gauntlet works much more magic than the WOL ever will. WOLs are hard to jump over, or get through without Com help in the form of medpacks and such, but tactically, they are far weaker than individual OCs sprinkled liberally throughout the map. A WOL seems intimidating until you really think about what it accomplishes. It does the same job, that of killing LA LMG rambos trying to find a backdoor into your base, that four well placed, unsupported OCs can do for less than half the cost. It also will be a detriment to your team later in the game, as the onos trying to take down the TF or HA train that is being set up to nade/siege your WOL into oblivion gets BLOCKED by the same WOL he is trying to defend. And, because the structures are all grouped together, splash attacks like those from a Siege or GL take them down all the faster. It is much, MUCH wiser to put a little more effort in to setting up your defenses than simply building them all in a row. Climb up somewhere as a skulk before gorging and putting down an OC, or ask a skulk to boost you up. In Hera, Maintnance, outside Ventilation, can be held off by building OCs on the two very small overhangs just above the entrance to the large room, and perhaps a third on top of the big blue-flamey structure. Three is enough to keep that irritating LA guy with the welder from breaking Cargo open for the marine team, and flooding through to Archiving. It's also wise to try and triangulate the field of fire OCs can lay down. In such a way, a LA can't just strafe-dodge reflexively and get by with less damage (that being ideally fatal) than he should. Put your OCs on high ground, and space them around so that it isn't so obvious where they are. An OC in a hallway is irritating, but it goes down after about thirteen seconds of LMG Pistol fire. By a lone marine. As always, surprise and wit should always be your weapons of choice.
[edit]
Also: OCs do not give marines res when they die, making them quite expendable. As a skulk, you don't HAVE to defend an OC if you see it under attack, ditto with a wall. Use the distraction to sneak-kill the guy trying to rambo, ideally pinning his back to the OC and taking him out in no time.
Think about the range and locations of your OCs. Putting them in corners and in very small spaces marines might have to crawl through is good, but you can also close off hallways with them by building small MiniWOLs™ of three OCs arrayed in a diagonal positioning. By building them in a diagonal direction, your OCs can fire either way without blocking each other. It isn't as effective as hiding your OCs in large rooms and hard to reach locations, but it's a nice intermediary step for you stuck-in-a-rut WOL builders.
As for the CC thing, yeah, that needs to be fixed. It would be easy to do it too. ....... what else needs to be said?
<!--QuoteBegin--Majin+Sep 23 2003, 02:32 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Majin @ Sep 23 2003, 02:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> OC go down to quick as it is now. Gorges don't get much RFKs and res comes in really slow most times! investments that will die in 1 LMG clip and a bit are useless investments and would need to be buddied up with DCS making it poinless to place OCs alone. Now you have a investment of much more than normal, because you need twice as many DCs to make up for the lack of life!
Thats what I NEVER want to see happen. OCs in 1.4 were good except they had **** aim, now Flayra has given them back bad aim again (or at least less than 2.0). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually, OC's wouldn't go down faster...
It's simple math, more OC's = dead marines faster due to more firepower...
OC's would be incredibly useful as support, but would suck terribly without support. And that's exactly how they should be. Cheap, powerful, but die without alien support and would only serve as an early warning system.
@Forlorn: I most times will get 100 res and make a full WoL, a WoL that only a team of HA/GLs could take down, and most times the siege is the only way to get past. when 2.0 came out and OCs had 1200 life walls like that were AWESOME and did there job perfectly, they slowed down and sometimes restricted the movements of the marines just as a turret farm will stop kharaa dead in there tracks till the Onos and umbra lerks show up. Then when they went down to 1000 life, they became less powerful because it took less effort to destroy them. They could still kick a marine **** or even a team of marines but they didn't last half as long and that was only 200 points of life taken off.
A WoL with 8 OCs and 6 DCs can stop any team in its tracks and make them have to safely GL it to death or siege it. That is the point of a good WoL but that WoL will have cost you 140 res as a gorge. That takes a long time to get! Your Idea would be helpful because you would be able to make that same WoL for only 100 res and it could be built faster, but it would also go down twice as fast. So to make sure that it heals fast enough to deal with the fact that only Sieges and HA/GLs can take it down you would have to add 4 more DCs making the cost 140 res. If you didn't add the extra 4 DCs once they came across that WoL they would take it out with HA/SGs and HA/GLs alot quicker than if each OC had 1000 life each, I would say twice as fast due to its 500 life.
Being able to place OCs faster and more is a nice advantage, but if they die faster they can't do as much DMG. 1 SG blast does 160 DMG on zero level, what would happen to that OC if the SG was at level 3? It would be gone in 2.6 shots compared to the normal OC that can take 4.6 shots in point blank. Thats the difference of about 1.8 seconds, but as you know 1.8 seconds can mean the death of a marine or the death of an OC.
<i>/ok your turn to try to convince me</i> <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+Sep 24 2003, 08:02 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Sep 24 2003, 08:02 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I wanna see a build where OC's cost 5. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Absolutely! That's what I've been saying for a while now. This would give the aliens something to do other than save for onos. It would also allow them to use the map more strategically. OCs at 10 res is simply not a cost-effective option for the aliens.
<!--QuoteBegin--Tempus+Sep 24 2003, 09:34 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Tempus @ Sep 24 2003, 09:34 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+Sep 24 2003, 08:02 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Sep 24 2003, 08:02 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I wanna see a build where OC's cost 5. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> @ Forlorn: Hell if they were only 5 Res that would be awesome but didn't you say you wanted them 5 res but the life would only 500.
<!--QuoteBegin--Majin+Sep 24 2003, 10:24 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Majin @ Sep 24 2003, 10:24 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> @Forlorn: I most times will get 100 res and make a full WoL, a WoL that only a team of HA/GLs could take down, and most times the siege is the only way to get past. when 2.0 came out and OCs had 1200 life walls like that were AWESOME and did there job perfectly, they slowed down and sometimes restricted the movements of the marines just as a turret farm will stop kharaa dead in there tracks till the Onos and umbra lerks show up. Then when they went down to 1000 life, they became less powerful because it took less effort to destroy them. They could still kick a marine **** or even a team of marines but they didn't last half as long and that was only 200 points of life taken off.
A WoL with 8 OCs and 6 DCs can stop any team in its tracks and make them have to safely GL it to death or siege it. That is the point of a good WoL but that WoL will have cost you 140 res as a gorge. That takes a long time to get! Your Idea would be helpful because you would be able to make that same WoL for only 100 res and it could be built faster, but it would also go down twice as fast. So to make sure that it heals fast enough to deal with the fact that only Sieges and HA/GLs can take it down you would have to add 4 more DCs making the cost 140 res. If you didn't add the extra 4 DCs once they came across that WoL they would take it out with HA/SGs and HA/GLs alot quicker than if each OC had 1000 life each, I would say twice as fast due to its 500 life.
Being able to place OCs faster and more is a nice advantage, but if they die faster they can't do as much DMG. 1 SG blast does 160 DMG on zero level, what would happen to that OC if the SG was at level 3? It would be gone in 2.6 shots compared to the normal OC that can take 4.6 shots in point blank. Thats the difference of about 1.8 seconds, but as you know 1.8 seconds can mean the death of a marine or the death of an OC.
<i>/ok your turn to try to convince me</i> <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> 140 res for OC's... do you realize how unrealistic this is?
Another thing, at 5 at whack for cost, they could be setup extreamlly quickly... instead of waiting for 10 res at a time, it would only be 5...
Making WOL's would still be expensive, but making temporary defenses or just stray defenses to kill rambo marines would be extreamlly cheap to do and also effective.
You actually prove in your example that lowering the OC's hp to 550 and cost to 5 would not be overpowered simply because it would take many more DC's to keep it up, therefore costing just as much as it regularly does.
However, lowering the cost makes it more versitale, esp. with lots of support. It would only cost 40 res for 8 OC's, that would be weak... however, lets say you have some skulks to run and kill marines forcing the marines to watch how they spend their ammo, or lerks with umbra, or a fade that uses the OC's as cover. The OC's would be extreamlly powerful if they aren't able to be shot at, due to other lifeforms that pose a threat to the marines, however, if no one is there to backup the structures, then it would fall so fast it wouldn't even be funny. Having structures be more useful with players around would be akin to TFC turrets from engineers, they are the best with support but suck terribly without support.
Also, on a final note, don't you think that OC's that are cheap, effective, but easy to kill fits in nicely with the 'infestation' feel of the Kharaa?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->140 res for OC's... do you realize how unrealistic this is?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I make 8 OCs and 6 DCs all the time, it costs 140 res to do and about 300 seconds of building time plus say 10-20 mins to get all that res . This is late game and now in 2.01 OCs are useless in late game making the OC useless unless its in large WoL form like this!
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Another thing, at 5 at whack for cost, they could be setup extreamlly quickly... instead of waiting for 10 res at a time, it would only be 5...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with you it would less and make OCs more useable but the Half DMG in 2.01 makes the useless unless in large amounts.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Making WOL's would still be expensive, but making temporary defenses or just stray defenses to kill rambo marines would be extreamlly cheap to do and also effective.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree it would be very usefull in early game!
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You actually prove in your example that lowering the OC's hp to 550 and cost to 5 would not be overpowered simply because it would take many more DC's to keep it up, therefore costing just as much as it regularly does.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> But whats the point of the OCs if they are useless on there own? You know how long in the start it can take to get even 10 res. Now you get that 10 res but your new 2 OCs could die in seconds. The only advantage is that a Rambo would die because you have 2 instead of 1. Its all relitive. Useful in early game but not in late.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->if no one is there to backup the structures, then it would fall so fast it wouldn't even be funny. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Thast my WHOLE ARGUMENT. They die fast enough as it is, if they died faster you would have to rebuild them much more often, that would be counter productive.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Also, on a final note, don't you think that OC's that are cheap, effective, but easy to kill fits in nicely with the 'infestation' feel of the Kharaa? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes and I would love that, but not if they are going to die in seocnds unless you are guarding them.
In there current configuration, WoL are pretty much useless. After even a moderate amount of Marine teching they aren't even a speedbump.
Less health, half damage to HA, expensive cost and limited number make them pretty much a waste against anything except LA marines and even then only if the Marines try to run past them and you've set a trap.
I never saw a problem with OC's before. I have no clue why they were changed. Another mysterious "balance" in the game..... Sorta like lowering the cost of HA.
So why do you both change HA to take half damage from OC's AND lower the cost of HA at the same time?<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->? No wonder we see wild swings in balance.
@ Harry: I agree, Half DMG for OCs makes no sense at all and like I said before I don't know what Flayra was thinking. Hes effectively made OCs USELESS! Where Turrets are just as strong as they use to be but now can be stopped by a 100 res investment and how offten do the marines let that happen?
<!--QuoteBegin--Majin+Sep 24 2003, 10:27 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Majin @ Sep 24 2003, 10:27 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> @ Harry: I agree, Half DMG for OCs makes no sense at all and like I said before I don't know what Flayra was thinking. Hes effectively made OCs USELESS! Where Turrets are just as strong as they use to be but now can be stopped by a 100 res investment and how offten do the marines let that happen? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> we should have a new thread for this half-damage junk. it sickens me that an unsupported regen onos can kill a tf that has nine turrets and an LA marine guarding it in 35 seconds.
CC dropping isnt THAT big of a problem since 2.01, at least on the server I play on. If you build OCs we put them around our hives (entracnces to that is) and by some RTs (like power sub junct 3 in ns_eclipse or upabove on the pipes in upper sewers on ns_caged) and make that res back in no time. HA is faster to get, yes, but if as aliens you do your job and keep their rts down to 2-3 (some times hard to do but doable. Electrified RTs only hit 1 player so 3 skulks = no rt, maybe 1 dead skulk) and rush to defend your rts then its no problem. OCs as an offensive tool are usless, but for HELPING defend key areas its great.
You must remember that OCs are NOT Turrets. They are there to hold of the marines until Skulks/Fades/Onos/sometimes Lerks can get there. do that and you'll have no problem at all.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> we should have a new thread for this half-damage junk. it sickens me that an unsupported regen onos can kill a tf that has nine turrets and an LA marine guarding it in 35 seconds. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> @Zel: WHAT? is that a joke? an Onos is a 100 res investment turret farms are so cheap now that you can put 30 of them and 4 TFs in 1 area. If they didn't do half dmg vs Onii, it would be impossible to get rid of them. There is no Alien Siege cannon. OCs are restricted to 8 per area and can be destroyed very easy, not to mention they don't hurt as much as turrets. The half DMG vs Onii is a good thing, the half DMG vs HA is pointless and hurts the OCs to a point that they are useless.
<!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+Sep 24 2003, 09:02 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Sep 24 2003, 09:02 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I wanna see a build where OC's cost 5. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> We did that in one of the last builds during 2.0 playtesting. It was horrible, OC spamming everwhere. You couldn't go anywhere without running into at least 6 oc's. This game is about players versus players, not player versus immobile AI structure.
how about they keep the cost of OCs as it is but they introduce the seed building mod plugin to the actual game so you can build them on the ceilings and walls? <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
It was really cool seeing the double res in bast with lots of spikey ocs hanging from the ceiling and dcs and mcs and scs growing out of the walls like some sort of giant fungal infestation =3
Comments
All I know its not fun to make WoL anymore because they are only going to get you 2 or 3 kills before they are gone!
Thats not how I like to play.
I set up baracades.
I look at the map and set up WoL in areas that then close off a path to another part.
I set up a defnse perimeter around hives and RTs
If they can get past the baracade then we are in trouble.
Some maps made that really easy! The old 1.04 ns_eclipse comes to mind.
on 1.04 eclipse marines could block off the whole right side of the map (maintenance) by setting up a Defense net in 2 locations.
Half the map by placing stuff in 2 spots!
thats how I like to play. Make an area off limits and all the areas after that also. You can spend less res and make stronger WoL, that only HA/GLs or the under used siege can get rid of.
WOL just suck, build towers, thez are way better.
I set up baracades.
I look at the map and set up WoL in areas that then close off a path to another part.
I set up a defnse perimeter around hives and RTs
If they can get past the baracade then we are in trouble.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
but you just said that doesnt work. what if they JP right over it into the undefended middle ground and set up a siege base! keep every area in a line of sight of ONE oc, and marines wont be able to make any secret actions.
It doesn't make sense to me at all.
Marines have GLs and Sieges, 9 is the max amount of OCs that can be placed in an area and they only have 1000 life each. WTH would Flayra restrict OCs with half DMG. Its SO very different than a farm of turrets.
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I agree with this 110%. This is more of those "why did they change that?" kind of questions. Sometimes there seems to be no rhyme or reason why they do things. Fixing what ain't broken......that's a bad sign.
WHY FLAYRA, WHY?
They are useless towards the mid/late of the game. You don't see OC farms, the aliens don't have a wep like the GL to spam with? Why does the only back up defense have to suck against HA? They can be destroyed so easy!
Thats the only problem I have had with 2.01 at all. The OCs suck!
o Had only 550 hp, down from 1000.
o Deal 50 dmg still.
o Same build time.
o Cost only 5 res.
While I don't think OC's are useless now, they are quite expensive.
It would be interesting to see OC's that would be cheap, strong, but could be gunned down by one marine with a pistol and LMG clip.
However, you would have two OC's instead of one. This would make OC's:
- Feasible to use outside of your hive, marines would want to kill OC's since they would be easy to kill and not killing them would mean a lot of damage done to them. However, since killing the OC's would mean you would attract alien attention... thus making them great early warning systems.
- Stronger with support (8 cloaked OC's hitting one marine at once vs. 4 cloaked OC's hitting one marine... do the math. Or, DC's by an OC would be much more useful)
- Much more different (yes, even more so) than marine turrets.
- OC's wouldn't be such a drain on a single resource flow.
investments that will die in 1 LMG clip and a bit are useless investments and would need to be buddied up with DCS making it poinless to place OCs alone.
Now you have a investment of much more than normal, because you need twice as many DCs to make up for the lack of life!
Thats what I NEVER want to see happen.
OCs in 1.4 were good except they had **** aim, now Flayra has given them back bad aim again (or at least less than 2.0).
The old method of barricading off the map doesn't work for aliens anymore.
Welcome to Natural Selection. Evolve or die.
Now OC placement is best done using towers, or using what I like to call the "OC Gauntlet" -- a long stretch of hallway with OC's placed in such a manner that marines are never out of fire while they're in the hall, but it only ever seems like there's only one or two OCs, so they should be able to run by them.
Half Damage for heavies didn't seem necessary, I'll agree, but half damage (or worse tracking, either/or doesn't matter) for JPs I fully agree with.
My biggest problem with the comm-chair drop is that the comm is at no risk from the tactic other than res. Try sneaking a gorge into turret range to put up your OC. (Is it just me or do turrets have a longer range than OCs?) Against a half-competent commander, there'll be an obs in with the electrified turret factory, making sneaking impossible. To be honest, you're probably better off putting up an SC if you can.. more hps, and if it manages to get online, you'll at least be cloaked, letting you get closer to drop the second one.
1)Modify the hitbox so pieces that stick around corners take no damage.
and
2)Increase the ROF(and/or accuracy) so that corner strafing DOES NOT work whatsoever. Jetpackers however, reduce the OC accuracy alot, even if they aren't going very fast.
Besides the gauntlet, OCs can also be used in a disputed area, to bolster alien defenses.
WOL just suck, build towers, thez are way better. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You get res for kills from OC's.
Now, they will still slow them dowm, but 5 heavys + 3mins is still 5 heavys.
might not be effecient but it'd make me giggle <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
might not be effecient but it'd make me giggle <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, they should hug you with their 4 long spike arms and give you kisses with their spike heads. With sound effects! <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif'><!--endemo-->
Some examples:
Set up one DC and two OCs to either side of it as a Regen Gorge in the underwater passageway between Refinery and Feedwater in Bast. Frankly, if you control Refinery, it's even easier to do this. Just drop an OC right at the end of the water passage. In such a manner, any marine trying to sneak-swim into alien territory will be destroyed by these submerged OCs, the process aided by his decreasing life as he suffocates. Even a HA will have to use his welder or knife to take the things out, and if the com really wants to get his guys through the tunnel, he will have to medspam until he has run out of res. Cost, 10 to 30 res. Benefit, closes off a potentially lethal backdoor to Main Aft and Refinery.
The OC gauntlet works much more magic than the WOL ever will. WOLs are hard to jump over, or get through without Com help in the form of medpacks and such, but tactically, they are far weaker than individual OCs sprinkled liberally throughout the map. A WOL seems intimidating until you really think about what it accomplishes. It does the same job, that of killing LA LMG rambos trying to find a backdoor into your base, that four well placed, unsupported OCs can do for less than half the cost. It also will be a detriment to your team later in the game, as the onos trying to take down the TF or HA train that is being set up to nade/siege your WOL into oblivion gets BLOCKED by the same WOL he is trying to defend. And, because the structures are all grouped together, splash attacks like those from a Siege or GL take them down all the faster. It is much, MUCH wiser to put a little more effort in to setting up your defenses than simply building them all in a row. Climb up somewhere as a skulk before gorging and putting down an OC, or ask a skulk to boost you up. In Hera, Maintnance, outside Ventilation, can be held off by building OCs on the two very small overhangs just above the entrance to the large room, and perhaps a third on top of the big blue-flamey structure. Three is enough to keep that irritating LA guy with the welder from breaking Cargo open for the marine team, and flooding through to Archiving. It's also wise to try and triangulate the field of fire OCs can lay down. In such a way, a LA can't just strafe-dodge reflexively and get by with less damage (that being ideally fatal) than he should. Put your OCs on high ground, and space them around so that it isn't so obvious where they are. An OC in a hallway is irritating, but it goes down after about thirteen seconds of LMG Pistol fire. By a lone marine. As always, surprise and wit should always be your weapons of choice.
[edit]
Also: OCs do not give marines res when they die, making them quite expendable. As a skulk, you don't HAVE to defend an OC if you see it under attack, ditto with a wall. Use the distraction to sneak-kill the guy trying to rambo, ideally pinning his back to the OC and taking him out in no time.
Think about the range and locations of your OCs. Putting them in corners and in very small spaces marines might have to crawl through is good, but you can also close off hallways with them by building small MiniWOLs™ of three OCs arrayed in a diagonal positioning. By building them in a diagonal direction, your OCs can fire either way without blocking each other. It isn't as effective as hiding your OCs in large rooms and hard to reach locations, but it's a nice intermediary step for you stuck-in-a-rut WOL builders.
As for the CC thing, yeah, that needs to be fixed. It would be easy to do it too. ....... what else needs to be said?
investments that will die in 1 LMG clip and a bit are useless investments and would need to be buddied up with DCS making it poinless to place OCs alone.
Now you have a investment of much more than normal, because you need twice as many DCs to make up for the lack of life!
Thats what I NEVER want to see happen.
OCs in 1.4 were good except they had **** aim, now Flayra has given them back bad aim again (or at least less than 2.0). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, OC's wouldn't go down faster...
It's simple math, more OC's = dead marines faster due to more firepower...
OC's would be incredibly useful as support, but would suck terribly without support. And that's exactly how they should be. Cheap, powerful, but die without alien support and would only serve as an early warning system.
I wanna see a build where OC's cost 5.
I most times will get 100 res and make a full WoL, a WoL that only a team of HA/GLs could take down, and most times the siege is the only way to get past. when 2.0 came out and OCs had 1200 life walls like that were AWESOME and did there job perfectly, they slowed down and sometimes restricted the movements of the marines just as a turret farm will stop kharaa dead in there tracks till the Onos and umbra lerks show up.
Then when they went down to 1000 life, they became less powerful because it took less effort to destroy them. They could still kick a marine **** or even a team of marines but they didn't last half as long and that was only 200 points of life taken off.
A WoL with 8 OCs and 6 DCs can stop any team in its tracks and make them have to safely GL it to death or siege it. That is the point of a good WoL but that WoL will have cost you 140 res as a gorge. That takes a long time to get! Your Idea would be helpful because you would be able to make that same WoL for only 100 res and it could be built faster, but it would also go down twice as fast. So to make sure that it heals fast enough to deal with the fact that only Sieges and HA/GLs can take it down you would have to add 4 more DCs making the cost 140 res. If you didn't add the extra 4 DCs once they came across that WoL they would take it out with HA/SGs and HA/GLs alot quicker than if each OC had 1000 life each, I would say twice as fast due to its 500 life.
Being able to place OCs faster and more is a nice advantage, but if they die faster they can't do as much DMG. 1 SG blast does 160 DMG on zero level, what would happen to that OC if the SG was at level 3? It would be gone in 2.6 shots compared to the normal OC that can take 4.6 shots in point blank. Thats the difference of about 1.8 seconds, but as you know 1.8 seconds can mean the death of a marine or the death of an OC.
<i>/ok your turn to try to convince me</i> <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Absolutely! That's what I've been saying for a while now. This would give the aliens something to do other than save for onos. It would also allow them to use the map more strategically. OCs at 10 res is simply not a cost-effective option for the aliens.
@ Forlorn: Hell if they were only 5 Res that would be awesome but didn't you say you wanted them 5 res but the life would only 500.
I most times will get 100 res and make a full WoL, a WoL that only a team of HA/GLs could take down, and most times the siege is the only way to get past. when 2.0 came out and OCs had 1200 life walls like that were AWESOME and did there job perfectly, they slowed down and sometimes restricted the movements of the marines just as a turret farm will stop kharaa dead in there tracks till the Onos and umbra lerks show up.
Then when they went down to 1000 life, they became less powerful because it took less effort to destroy them. They could still kick a marine **** or even a team of marines but they didn't last half as long and that was only 200 points of life taken off.
A WoL with 8 OCs and 6 DCs can stop any team in its tracks and make them have to safely GL it to death or siege it. That is the point of a good WoL but that WoL will have cost you 140 res as a gorge. That takes a long time to get! Your Idea would be helpful because you would be able to make that same WoL for only 100 res and it could be built faster, but it would also go down twice as fast. So to make sure that it heals fast enough to deal with the fact that only Sieges and HA/GLs can take it down you would have to add 4 more DCs making the cost 140 res. If you didn't add the extra 4 DCs once they came across that WoL they would take it out with HA/SGs and HA/GLs alot quicker than if each OC had 1000 life each, I would say twice as fast due to its 500 life.
Being able to place OCs faster and more is a nice advantage, but if they die faster they can't do as much DMG. 1 SG blast does 160 DMG on zero level, what would happen to that OC if the SG was at level 3? It would be gone in 2.6 shots compared to the normal OC that can take 4.6 shots in point blank. Thats the difference of about 1.8 seconds, but as you know 1.8 seconds can mean the death of a marine or the death of an OC.
<i>/ok your turn to try to convince me</i> <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
140 res for OC's... do you realize how unrealistic this is?
Another thing, at 5 at whack for cost, they could be setup extreamlly quickly... instead of waiting for 10 res at a time, it would only be 5...
Making WOL's would still be expensive, but making temporary defenses or just stray defenses to kill rambo marines would be extreamlly cheap to do and also effective.
You actually prove in your example that lowering the OC's hp to 550 and cost to 5 would not be overpowered simply because it would take many more DC's to keep it up, therefore costing just as much as it regularly does.
However, lowering the cost makes it more versitale, esp. with lots of support. It would only cost 40 res for 8 OC's, that would be weak... however, lets say you have some skulks to run and kill marines forcing the marines to watch how they spend their ammo, or lerks with umbra, or a fade that uses the OC's as cover. The OC's would be extreamlly powerful if they aren't able to be shot at, due to other lifeforms that pose a threat to the marines, however, if no one is there to backup the structures, then it would fall so fast it wouldn't even be funny. Having structures be more useful with players around would be akin to TFC turrets from engineers, they are the best with support but suck terribly without support.
Also, on a final note, don't you think that OC's that are cheap, effective, but easy to kill fits in nicely with the 'infestation' feel of the Kharaa?
I make 8 OCs and 6 DCs all the time, it costs 140 res to do and about 300 seconds of building time plus say 10-20 mins to get all that res . This is late game and now in 2.01 OCs are useless in late game making the OC useless unless its in large WoL form like this!
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Another thing, at 5 at whack for cost, they could be setup extreamlly quickly... instead of waiting for 10 res at a time, it would only be 5...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with you it would less and make OCs more useable but the Half DMG in 2.01 makes the useless unless in large amounts.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Making WOL's would still be expensive, but making temporary defenses or just stray defenses to kill rambo marines would be extreamlly cheap to do and also effective.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree it would be very usefull in early game!
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You actually prove in your example that lowering the OC's hp to 550 and cost to 5 would not be overpowered simply because it would take many more DC's to keep it up, therefore costing just as much as it regularly does.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But whats the point of the OCs if they are useless on there own?
You know how long in the start it can take to get even 10 res. Now you get that 10 res but your new 2 OCs could die in seconds. The only advantage is that a Rambo would die because you have 2 instead of 1. Its all relitive. Useful in early game but not in late.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->if no one is there to backup the structures, then it would fall so fast it wouldn't even be funny. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thast my WHOLE ARGUMENT. They die fast enough as it is, if they died faster you would have to rebuild them much more often, that would be counter productive.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Also, on a final note, don't you think that OC's that are cheap, effective, but easy to kill fits in nicely with the 'infestation' feel of the Kharaa?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes and I would love that, but not if they are going to die in seocnds unless you are guarding them.
Less health, half damage to HA, expensive cost and limited number make them pretty much a waste against anything except LA marines and even then only if the Marines try to run past them and you've set a trap.
I never saw a problem with OC's before. I have no clue why they were changed. Another mysterious "balance" in the game..... Sorta like lowering the cost of HA.
So why do you both change HA to take half damage from OC's AND lower the cost of HA at the same time?<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->? No wonder we see wild swings in balance.
Hes effectively made OCs USELESS!
Where Turrets are just as strong as they use to be but now can be stopped by a 100 res investment and how offten do the marines let that happen?
Hes effectively made OCs USELESS!
Where Turrets are just as strong as they use to be but now can be stopped by a 100 res investment and how offten do the marines let that happen? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
we should have a new thread for this half-damage junk. it sickens me that an unsupported regen onos can kill a tf that has nine turrets and an LA marine guarding it in 35 seconds.
You must remember that OCs are NOT Turrets. They are there to hold of the marines until Skulks/Fades/Onos/sometimes Lerks can get there. do that and you'll have no problem at all.
I dont.
-Red
we should have a new thread for this half-damage junk. it sickens me that an unsupported regen onos can kill a tf that has nine turrets and an LA marine guarding it in 35 seconds. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
@Zel:
WHAT?
is that a joke?
an Onos is a 100 res investment turret farms are so cheap now that you can put 30 of them and 4 TFs in 1 area. If they didn't do half dmg vs Onii, it would be impossible to get rid of them. There is no Alien Siege cannon.
OCs are restricted to 8 per area and can be destroyed very easy, not to mention they don't hurt as much as turrets. The half DMG vs Onii is a good thing, the half DMG vs HA is pointless and hurts the OCs to a point that they are useless.
We did that in one of the last builds during 2.0 playtesting. It was horrible, OC spamming everwhere. You couldn't go anywhere without running into at least 6 oc's. This game is about players versus players, not player versus immobile AI structure.
It was really cool seeing the double res in bast with lots of spikey ocs hanging from the ceiling and dcs and mcs and scs growing out of the walls like some sort of giant fungal infestation =3