EpidemicDark Force GorgeJoin Date: 2003-06-29Member: 17781Members
Erhm, I think the OC spike is 20 damage per shot <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The only implications I see are twice as many chambers killed twice as quickly. Net gain...zero. To top it off they are still doing half damage to HA.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> However, since there are twice as many, they deal twice as much damage before going down in the same amount of time. This makes a difference if a marine wants to sneak by them and not kill them. If a marine has a gl and clears them like that, the change will make little difference, since they do no damage.
<!--QuoteBegin--i'm lost+Sep 30 2003, 06:03 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (i'm lost @ Sep 30 2003, 06:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The only implications I see are twice as many chambers killed twice as quickly. Net gain...zero. To top it off they are still doing half damage to HA.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> However, since there are twice as many, they deal twice as much damage before going down in the same amount of time. This makes a difference if a marine wants to sneak by them and not kill them. If a marine has a gl and clears them like that, the change will make little difference, since they do no damage. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> No, they don't. They die in half the time...net gain...zero.
<!--QuoteBegin--Harry S. Truman+Sep 30 2003, 09:49 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Harry S. Truman @ Sep 30 2003, 09:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--i'm lost+Sep 30 2003, 06:03 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (i'm lost @ Sep 30 2003, 06:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The only implications I see are twice as many chambers killed twice as quickly. Net gain...zero. To top it off they are still doing half damage to HA.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> However, since there are twice as many, they deal twice as much damage before going down in the same amount of time. This makes a difference if a marine wants to sneak by them and not kill them. If a marine has a gl and clears them like that, the change will make little difference, since they do no damage. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> No, they don't. They die in half the time...net gain...zero. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> They die in the half the time but fire twice as many shots because there are twice as many chambers.
Both ways are pretty much equal.
Indeed, I question whether or not you even read my posts on the complete idea.
<!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+Oct 1 2003, 09:48 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Oct 1 2003, 09:48 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Twice as many chambers = twice as many shots.... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> sigh <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo--> I understand your posts, but your logic is flawed ... twice as many shots in half the time means same amount of damage.
Let's say the following is true....
5 chambers fire 5 times before they die which takes say 30 seconds and do 250 damage.
10 chambers fire about 2.5 times before they die which takes only 15 seconds (cause they have 1/2 the health) and do 250 damage.
PLUS you are still limited to X number of chambers in any single area, regardless of cost. Which means, you won't be able to put any more chambers in an area regardless of cost.
Kill half damage for chambers...that's all you need to do.
<!--QuoteBegin--Harry S. Truman+Oct 1 2003, 11:05 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Harry S. Truman @ Oct 1 2003, 11:05 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+Oct 1 2003, 09:48 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Oct 1 2003, 09:48 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Twice as many chambers = twice as many shots.... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
10 chambers fire about 2.5 times before they die which takes only 15 seconds (cause they have 1/2 the health) and do 250 damage. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Your forumla's oversimplfy. Other OC's will fire as one OC is being killed. It thus follows that more OC's deal more damage.
However, I can tell you right now that to a GL my OC's would evaporate rather than now; where they simply blow up.. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Harry's Point is the one I was making a few pages back.
You will end up sending more res on these chambers because you will have to replace them twice as much. or you would have to provide 2 times the amount of DCs to make up for the lack of life, which would mean that they would be even more costly.
Yes you can get them up faster but they wont live as long and because 8 is the most you can add its not going to be much better.
Having them early on would only unbalance things because the marines would need higher tech to get to new res due to the OC spam around the map thanks to cheap OC cost.
I still don't think it would work.
Not to mention Half DMG.... <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+Oct 1 2003, 10:10 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Oct 1 2003, 10:10 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Harry S. Truman+Oct 1 2003, 11:05 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Harry S. Truman @ Oct 1 2003, 11:05 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+Oct 1 2003, 09:48 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Oct 1 2003, 09:48 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Twice as many chambers = twice as many shots.... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
10 chambers fire about 2.5 times before they die which takes only 15 seconds (cause they have 1/2 the health) and do 250 damage. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Your forumla's oversimplfy. Other OC's will fire as one OC is being killed. It thus follows that more OC's deal more damage.
However, I can tell you right now that to a GL my OC's would evaporate rather than now; where they simply blow up.. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, I was assuming a GL was in the mix. Why would you waste the time, ammo and giving aliens RFK by attacking that many chambers without one? Siege or GL...either way the OC's are crushed.
<!--QuoteBegin--Harry S. Truman+Oct 1 2003, 01:57 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Harry S. Truman @ Oct 1 2003, 01:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+Oct 1 2003, 10:10 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Oct 1 2003, 10:10 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Harry S. Truman+Oct 1 2003, 11:05 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Harry S. Truman @ Oct 1 2003, 11:05 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+Oct 1 2003, 09:48 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Oct 1 2003, 09:48 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Twice as many chambers = twice as many shots.... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
10 chambers fire about 2.5 times before they die which takes only 15 seconds (cause they have 1/2 the health) and do 250 damage. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Your forumla's oversimplfy. Other OC's will fire as one OC is being killed. It thus follows that more OC's deal more damage.
However, I can tell you right now that to a GL my OC's would evaporate rather than now; where they simply blow up.. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, I was assuming a GL was in the mix. Why would you waste the time, ammo and giving aliens RFK by attacking that many chambers without one? Siege or GL...either way the OC's are crushed. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> HA and shotties could also tear down any WoL.
If you are assuming a gl or siege is used to take down the oc's, then the damage dealt by the oc's is 0x2=0 damage. However, if someone actually does take damage while killing/running past them, it will be more damage (but not quite twice as much). They would be more effective in the early game and less effective in the later game. I think this has been explained well enough, though. The more controvertial part of the topic is whether they <i>should</i> be changed to be more effective in the early game and less effective in the later game. I don't think so. I think they are effective enough early game if used correctly, and they are already plenty weak enough for the late game. I really think there needs to be a limit on the number of turrets in an area. It should be higher than 8 in my opinion, maybe 12 or 15 (not really sure).
<!--QuoteBegin--i'm lost+Oct 1 2003, 02:54 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (i'm lost @ Oct 1 2003, 02:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If you are assuming a gl or siege is used to take down the oc's, then the damage dealt by the oc's is 0x2=0 damage. However, if someone actually does take damage while killing/running past them, it will be more damage (but not quite twice as much). They would be more effective in the early game and less effective in the later game. I think this has been explained well enough, though. The more controvertial part of the topic is whether they <i>should</i> be changed to be more effective in the early game and less effective in the later game. I don't think so. I think they are effective enough early game if used correctly, and they are already plenty weak enough for the late game. I really think there needs to be a limit on the number of turrets in an area. It should be higher than 8 in my opinion, maybe 12 or 15 (not really sure). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> But you don't need that many chambers to stop marines "running by" I've found that 3 chambers placed "enroute" is more than enough to stop the rambo runners that try to sneak in your hive. No need for great rooms full of them. Chamber, as you state, are effective early game if placed properly. Never place them alone, never place them next to each other, but place them where two or more can fire at the same areas.
Late game, the half damage to HA makes them worthless. Especially when you can weld a marine HA from 0 to 290 in about 2.4 seconds. Acutally, I don't know exactly how long it is, but it's pretty damn fast.
dude, u guys are making formulas and **** for ocs!! listen to urselves!! its just a game! u see an oc shoot it! thats my formula! and if there are more than 3...run ur **** off! man the ocs in 2.0 are CRAZzzZZzzzy i rember way back in 1.03 and .04 where u could just run over like 5 ocs and just get hit once or twice!
OCs are too costly early game and too weak late game. In the first 10 mins of a game the res income for a gorge can be so slow (depending on the team size) that it can take 1 min per res. One Offence Chamber Every 10 mins seem really useless to me. But thats how slow it can be. Being a perma gorge is a pointless task early game due to the lack of RES.
Late game the OCs may go up fast enough but vs HA, unless you have a rambo HA with no welder support anything less than 8 OC WoL will go down in all of about 10 seconds.
Early game = too few due to cost Late game = too weak due to half DMG.
Comments
However, since there are twice as many, they deal twice as much damage before going down in the same amount of time. This makes a difference if a marine wants to sneak by them and not kill them. If a marine has a gl and clears them like that, the change will make little difference, since they do no damage.
However, since there are twice as many, they deal twice as much damage before going down in the same amount of time. This makes a difference if a marine wants to sneak by them and not kill them. If a marine has a gl and clears them like that, the change will make little difference, since they do no damage. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, they don't. They die in half the time...net gain...zero.
However, since there are twice as many, they deal twice as much damage before going down in the same amount of time. This makes a difference if a marine wants to sneak by them and not kill them. If a marine has a gl and clears them like that, the change will make little difference, since they do no damage. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, they don't. They die in half the time...net gain...zero. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
They die in the half the time but fire twice as many shots because there are twice as many chambers.
Both ways are pretty much equal.
Indeed, I question whether or not you even read my posts on the complete idea.
sigh <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo--> I understand your posts, but your logic is flawed ... twice as many shots in half the time means same amount of damage.
Let's say the following is true....
5 chambers fire 5 times before they die which takes say 30 seconds and do 250 damage.
10 chambers fire about 2.5 times before they die which takes only 15 seconds (cause they have 1/2 the health) and do 250 damage.
PLUS you are still limited to X number of chambers in any single area, regardless of cost. Which means, you won't be able to put any more chambers in an area regardless of cost.
Kill half damage for chambers...that's all you need to do.
10 chambers fire about 2.5 times before they die which takes only 15 seconds (cause they have 1/2 the health) and do 250 damage. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your forumla's oversimplfy. Other OC's will fire as one OC is being killed. It thus follows that more OC's deal more damage.
However, I can tell you right now that to a GL my OC's would evaporate rather than now; where they simply blow up.. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
You will end up sending more res on these chambers because you will have to replace them twice as much. or you would have to provide 2 times the amount of DCs to make up for the lack of life, which would mean that they would be even more costly.
Yes you can get them up faster but they wont live as long and because 8 is the most you can add its not going to be much better.
Having them early on would only unbalance things because the marines would need higher tech to get to new res due to the OC spam around the map thanks to cheap OC cost.
I still don't think it would work.
Not to mention Half DMG.... <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
10 chambers fire about 2.5 times before they die which takes only 15 seconds (cause they have 1/2 the health) and do 250 damage. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your forumla's oversimplfy. Other OC's will fire as one OC is being killed. It thus follows that more OC's deal more damage.
However, I can tell you right now that to a GL my OC's would evaporate rather than now; where they simply blow up.. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, I was assuming a GL was in the mix. Why would you waste the time, ammo and giving aliens RFK by attacking that many chambers without one? Siege or GL...either way the OC's are crushed.
10 chambers fire about 2.5 times before they die which takes only 15 seconds (cause they have 1/2 the health) and do 250 damage. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your forumla's oversimplfy. Other OC's will fire as one OC is being killed. It thus follows that more OC's deal more damage.
However, I can tell you right now that to a GL my OC's would evaporate rather than now; where they simply blow up.. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, I was assuming a GL was in the mix. Why would you waste the time, ammo and giving aliens RFK by attacking that many chambers without one? Siege or GL...either way the OC's are crushed. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
HA and shotties could also tear down any WoL.
But you don't need that many chambers to stop marines "running by" I've found that 3 chambers placed "enroute" is more than enough to stop the rambo runners that try to sneak in your hive. No need for great rooms full of them. Chamber, as you state, are effective early game if placed properly. Never place them alone, never place them next to each other, but place them where two or more can fire at the same areas.
Late game, the half damage to HA makes them worthless. Especially when you can weld a marine HA from 0 to 290 in about 2.4 seconds. Acutally, I don't know exactly how long it is, but it's pretty damn fast.
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In the first 10 mins of a game the res income for a gorge can be so slow (depending on the team size) that it can take 1 min per res. One Offence Chamber Every 10 mins seem really useless to me. But thats how slow it can be. Being a perma gorge is a pointless task early game due to the lack of RES.
Late game the OCs may go up fast enough but vs HA, unless you have a rambo HA with no welder support anything less than 8 OC WoL will go down in all of about 10 seconds.
Early game = too few due to cost
Late game = too weak due to half DMG.